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AusPoliGAF |OT| Boats? What Boats?

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A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Is this a new story? IIRC it's been known for some time that he claims/claimed travel allowance to stay at his wife's house. A lot of them do it, it's just especially funny coming from Mr. Lifters and Leaners and especially egregious because the house is worth millions. Then again, Hockey did defend his comments about minister's wives not telling their partners about "double-dipping" on PPL by revealing to the entire nation that his wife doesn't share her money with him, presumably because she's worried he'll give it to the Reserve Bank and then try to claim that Wayne Swan hacked their account and spent it all.
 

Arksy

Member
Is this a new story? IIRC it's been known for some time that he claims/claimed travel allowance to stay at his wife's house. A lot of them do it, it's just especially funny coming from Mr. Lifters and Leaners and especially egregious because the house is worth millions. Then again, Hockey did defend his comments about minister's wives not telling their partners about "double-dipping" on PPL by revealing to the entire nation that his wife doesn't share her money with him, presumably because she's worried he'll give it to the Reserve Bank and then try to claim that Wayne Swan hacked their account and spent it all.

lol.
 

Arksy

Member
If you want my cursory opinion a big problem is that there is an unnecessary and often unthinking conflation of classical liberal philosophy with classical liberal economics. For example, Bentham advocated full employment via monetary expansion, but also pioneered utility maximisation, and now hundreds of years later we have economics based on the latter that denies that the former could ever be necessary, as general equilibrium (absent any short term frictions) will always ensure that those who "voluntarily" offer their labour in exchange for payment can find work.

Wikipedia has a very nifty quote which says that mainstream economics is rooted to the "rationality-individualism-equilibrium nexus" whereas heterodox economics broadens to the "institutions-history-social structure nexus". For all its prominence, most economics in politics is very superficial. If you don't know where or how an idea originated then you can't accurately explain, critique, defend or apply it. This applies as much to a Green saying that economic growth will kill us all as it does to a "liberal" assuming that government intervention will make things worse because government is the devil of the gaps.

If you were just talking about parties though, well I reckon that's because just as the left is so afraid of its own shadow that it concedes to neoliberalism at almost every chance it gets, the right is so afraid of the left's shadow that it jumps to support toxic populism and vested interests at almost every chance it gets. Commies have a lot to answer for.

We have a lot to thank classical liberalism for, it is the doctrine that gave us parliamentary democracy, which has been exported to nearly every single country on the planet. It was classical liberalism that was so fervent in abolishing the slave trade. It was classical liberalism that gave rise to the sublime idea that everyone was bound by the same laws, from the farmer, to the bishop, to the king.

That being said, classical liberals have lost or forgotten the moral foundations that underpin the movement. You hear classical liberals keep banging on about markets but none of them seem to understand why free markets are good thing. For these people, it is not the ends but the means that have become ends in themselves; we no longer make markets free to disperse wealth, and invite innovation, we make markets free to entrench the status quo and to strengthen vested interests. It's incredibly sad that many don't seem to understand this basic point. Even looking at it cynically, I don't think these people are advocating these positions out of malice, they truly believe what they say, but don't realise that they may be pursuing the right idea, in the wrong way. Adam Smith spoke of how avarice twisted the minds of men and would lead to the ruin of all society.

Markets are not, haven't been, nor ever will be completely free. Conservatives need to accept this and act accordingly. You can not have a situation where a government spends appropriated money on creating infrastructure only to sell that infrastructure at the fraction of the cost to a private individual who gains a cheap monopoly. Governments have been doing this for over a century and while they have seen the folly of this approach, the only possible solution left is to regulate the hell out of the market...which only distorts it further...which doesn't necessarily mean it's not justified, but certain consequences follow. The market is harder for new players to enter and innovate. We keep heading towards a society where breaking into markets is becoming almost impossible for those without large sums of capital.

Classical liberals need to understand that governments have helped to create big behemoth's of corporations and need to reign them in, by forcibly breaking them up. Corporatism is almost as dangerous a concept as big government. We are condemning entire generations of destitution if we continue to transfer wealth upwards, and we are in danger of creating the one thing that the entire movement was created to abolish, a de facto aristocracy.

I use markets as one example, but I can find examples in almost every single policy field available. If I keep writing I will probably go on forever, there are so many issues that I have uncovered with my side that it has actually gotten me depressed. I could never ascribe to the belief that society should be organised from the top down, but after having to gone to numerous meetings and seeing how the things I say get sucked into their minds as if the information were filling a vacuum and their eyes opening wide, I can see that we have a big fucking problem.
 
Almost every time you lay your position out like that I agree with almost all of it, but the points we disagree on it are pretty fundamental (I view corporatism as a slightly greater threat than big government because corporations aren't even theoretically bound to the will of the people).

My definition of "big" government probably differs from you also. I have no real theoretical problem with governments providing arbitrarily large services or controlling monopolies but I have significant issues with government actions that reduce their accountability (secret treaties, secret laws, universal surveillance, broad use of classification (the things that I think should actually be classified basically consists of security operations that aren't finished (and the logical consequences thereof such as some specialized equipment) and military grade technology with offensive uses), etc) . On the classification note, if you require classification of things to avoid diplomatic embarrassment or being crucified by the electorate then that's a pretty good indication you shouldn't be doing those things (and if you must then wear it , if everyone else is doing the same thing its not like they don't already know),

I appreciate capitalism as a powerful engine of wealth creation, I just also view it as a potential powerful engine of social destruction and feel it should be carefully observed, regulated and controlled where necessary (though I also suspect we're about 60 years too late for that).
 

Shaneus

Member
errr. Hockey pays rent to his wife claiming that as an expense from the government.

I don't even.
I thought it was widely known? His wife owns the house he's (or they're) living in, and he claims something like $100k living away from home expense when paying rent on it. So I guess she just charges enough a year to make up for that $2k

Tony Jones handled it fucking brilliantly though. Watching Hockey squirm his way through it was a beautiful thing to see. Fucking weasel.

...

An onion discussion piece?
Sunrise pretty much *is* The Onion. Unless I've been misinterpreting it all these years.
 

Arksy

Member
Almost every time you lay your position out like that I agree with almost all of it, but the points we disagree on it are pretty fundamental (I view corporatism as a slightly greater threat than big government because corporations aren't even theoretically bound to the will of the people).

My definition of "big" government probably differs from you also. I have no real theoretical problem with governments providing arbitrarily large services or controlling monopolies but I have significant issues with government actions that reduce their accountability (secret treaties, secret laws, universal surveillance, broad use of classification (the things that I think should actually be classified basically consists of security operations that aren't finished (and the logical consequences thereof such as some specialized equipment) and military grade technology with offensive uses), etc) . On the classification note, if you require classification of things to avoid diplomatic embarrassment or being crucified by the electorate then that's a pretty good indication you shouldn't be doing those things (and if you must then wear it , if everyone else is doing the same thing its not like they don't already know),

I appreciate capitalism as a powerful engine of wealth creation, I just also view it as a potential powerful engine of social destruction and feel it should be carefully observed, regulated and controlled where necessary (though I also suspect we're about 60 years too late for that).

On balance, it might be the case that big corporations are a greater threat at the moment than big government, that's probably true right now...but in a theoretical sense, I will always view government as more dangerous than corporations because at the end of the day the state has a monopoly on violence, while corporations in most cases, are strictly forbidden to use violence. So a government can happily march tanks over student protestors or engage in wars, corporations can not do any of those...again in a general sense, exceptions do occur, but they are thankfully very rare.

The idea of small government should really be re-termed small society, small corporations, small government with fewer more streamlined powers to do what a government reasonably needs to. No big monopolies which have the power to completely distort the fabric of society either. They need to be broken up, because it's getting ridiculous.
 

Fredescu

Member
The idea of small government should really be re-termed small society, small corporations, small government with fewer more streamlined powers to do what a government reasonably needs to. No big monopolies which have the power to completely distort the fabric of society either. They need to be broken up, because it's getting ridiculous.

Yep, small organisations generally, public or private. Pretty sure I've ranted in this thread before about how large companies are equivalent to large government departments in almost every respect. I think the best way to achieve "small government" is to have smaller countries. This would result in better outcomes for pretty much everything possible... aside from defense. Which is why it doesn't happen.
 

Arksy

Member
Yep, small organisations generally, public or private. Pretty sure I've ranted in this thread before about how large companies are equivalent to large government departments in almost every respect. I think the best way to achieve "small government" is to have smaller countries. This would result in better outcomes for pretty much everything possible... aside from defense. Which is why it doesn't happen.

That's the whole point of a federation, at least that WAS the point. We keep everything small except for the things that allow us to come together for common defence, and to keep borders and trade open so we can have an open economy. Unfortunately, and out of the world's great federations the only ones that seem to have it functioning properly is Canada and Switzerland. The US and Australia have fucked ours up over the years.
 

Dryk

Member
Pretty sure I've ranted in this thread before about how large companies are equivalent to large government departments in almost every respect
Any organisation that grows large enough starts developing pretty much the exact same problems no matter what it is. It's interesting.
 

Fredescu

Member
Any organisation that grows large enough starts developing pretty much the exact same problems no matter what it is. It's interesting.

Yep, and what I find interesting is the way these organisations change the way people think and act. People make decisions and take actions that they would never do as an individual according to their own beliefs, but justify it with reasons codified by the organisation. I'm maximising shareholder value, I'm defending my client, I'm putting food on the table, it's just business, it's company policy, and so on.

But tell someone that a large organisations develop a mind of their own and people will be like "lol bullshit, free will etc". If collectively we could get over this glorification of the individual and realise how large organisations affect our day to day lives, we might develop the political will to do something about it. Won't happen though.
 

Arksy

Member
Yep, and what I find interesting is the way these organisations change the way people think and act. People make decisions and take actions that they would never do as an individual according to their own beliefs, but justify it with reasons codified by the organisation. I'm maximising shareholder value, I'm defending my client, I'm putting food on the table, it's just business, it's company policy, and so on.

But tell someone that a large organisations develop a mind of their own and people will be like "lol bullshit, free will etc". If collectively we could get over this glorification of the individual and realise how large organisations affect our day to day lives, we might develop the political will to do something about it. Won't happen though.

The problem I keep coming back to is that you don't really want to do anything that might disincentive growth. "Oh great I have a great product and idea and I'd think about expanding but what's the point? I'm just going to get prevented from growing by being broken up."
 

Fredescu

Member
The problem I keep coming back to is that you don't really want to do anything that might disincentive growth. "Oh great I have a great product and idea and I'd think about expanding but what's the point? I'm just going to get prevented from growing by being broken up."

There's two parts to that. Generally, I think you definitely need to slow down growth sometimes. Periods of high inflation can be fairly harmful to people, and bubble creation is a waste of capital unless you're lucky enough to come out ahead when it pops.

The second is that real innovations usually come from newer organisations. Once an organisation establishes itself, it tends to go into a mode of holding onto their marketshare. They tend to not want to develop down paths that will cannibalise their existing products.

As an example, electric cars have been around for ages, but it took Tesla to come along and make them a wanted thing, and invest in charging infrastructure. Remembering that Elon Musk himself left a large successful company to do that. He didn't create Paypal motors or try to leverage that business.

Valve is another example of that happening. Newell and Harrington took their money made from one very successful software business to create another very successful software business that wasn't possible inside the previous organisation.

So while I might poo poo the glorification of individuals, I think they're better at "innovation" than organisations. You do need organisations to fund and deliver them though.

Maybe as a counterpoint to all of that, what do you do about a Coles/Woolies situation? While I don't like the market power they have, there's no doubt that they provide a good service to people, and perhaps you could say they innovate a little bit in what they do. I love Costco, but they just don't have the range that Coles and Woolies do. You can't have them constantly putting price pressures on suppliers without some fallout though.
 
There's two parts to that. Generally, I think you definitely need to slow down growth sometimes. Periods of high inflation can be fairly harmful to people, and bubble creation is a waste of capital unless you're lucky enough to come out ahead when it pops.

The second is that real innovations usually come from newer organisations. Once an organisation establishes itself, it tends to go into a mode of holding onto their marketshare. They tend to not want to develop down paths that will cannibalise their existing products.

As an example, electric cars have been around for ages, but it took Tesla to come along and make them a wanted thing, and invest in charging infrastructure. Remembering that Elon Musk himself left a large successful company to do that. He didn't create Paypal motors or try to leverage that business.

Valve is another example of that happening. Newell and Harrington took their money made from one very successful software business to create another very successful software business that wasn't possible inside the previous organisation.

So while I might poo poo the glorification of individuals, I think they're better at "innovation" than organisations. You do need organisations to fund and deliver them though.

Maybe as a counterpoint to all of that, what do you do about a Coles/Woolies situation? While I don't like the market power they have, there's no doubt that they provide a good service to people, and perhaps you could say they innovate a little bit in what they do. I love Costco, but they just don't have the range that Coles and Woolies do. You can't have them constantly putting price pressures on suppliers without some fallout though.

I think the Coles/Woolworth thing is that you're only looking at their services from a consumer perspective. Theoretically corporations should be accountable to all their stakeholders* , so you need to look at their supplier "service" , which is basically "nice business you got here, would be a shame if you had no one to sell anything too wouldn't it?". You seem to get problems once you get control that's overconcentrated even if its not technically a monopoly / monopsony.

There's also the partial globalization problem (corporations frequently use globalization to decrease their supply/labor cost , but do everything in their power to prevent customers using it to decrease the cost of their goods).

And that people aren't big picture rational in many situations. People work jobs that are below living wage (basically a slow death (with some rather horrendous medical outcomes)) rather than act collectively to get a living wage because in the small picture its rational to want to live until next week.

*or to their society (depending on how you look at it) , doesn't make a lot of difference in this instance.
 

Fredescu

Member
I think the Coles/Woolworth thing is that you're only looking at their services from a consumer perspective. Theoretically corporations should be accountable to all their stakeholders* , so you need to look at their supplier "service" , which is basically "nice business you got here, would be a shame if you had no one to sell anything too wouldn't it?". You seem to get problems once you get control that's overconcentrated even if its not technically a monopoly / monopsony.

I agree. I was referring to their treatment of suppliers in my last sentence, but I wasn't very clear about it. Arksy's question seems to be, if the threat of breakup is hanging over their head, will organisations be less motivated to improve. I can see your point that really, they're just improving the customer facing side of their business, and funding those improvements by unfairly leveraging their market power on the supplier facing side of the business.

So the question remains, what would you do about it? How do you reckon a Coles/Woolies breakup is best achieved?
 
I think you pretty much have to accept that the cost of avoiding over centralization will be a hit to (or cap on) growth. There's always further potential economies of scale (or more and more monopoly/monopsony like effects) that could be argued to justify further concentration of power if you view growth as untouchable. That's pretty much how the past 50 odd years of neoliberal economics have proceeded, corporations use growth to justify an increase in their power relative to governments and governments agree that the market is king.


The question is more how do you mitigate the effect of someone else sacrificing their control allowing their corporations to gain those efficiencies and then use them against you? And the historical answers are pretty toxic to classical liberals: controls on entry, tariffs, trade barriers, international bodies. There's also the mirror problem: How do you prevent those bodies accumulating too much power?


On a bit of a sidetrack I think its worth noting that the infinite growth potential (measuring companies not by their ability to generate profit but by their ability to continual increase it) we use as a metric is pretty dodgy itself. We're already seeing the edge of the physical limits of reality (climate change, peak oil and we're starting to see some of the "sweatshop economies" need to increase their wages due to the inflation (which is causing a migration to other countries but that's also a finite supply) and the problem where the benefits from automation are concentrating purely in the hands of investors/executives rather than being used to increase the net quality of employee life.

I guess in total what I'm saying is that growth isn't a virtue in itself , its a means to an end, which is sufficient production of resources for everyone to live a comfortable life.
 

Fredescu

Member
I think you pretty much have to accept that the cost of avoiding over centralization will be a hit to (or cap on) growth.

I do accept that, I'm not asking how we can break them up and maintain equal growth. I was just wondering if you or anyone else had any specific ideas of how to approach the breakup of those companies specifically, and companies who have too large a market share in their industry generally, with as few unwanted consequences as possible. I think we agree on the theory, but putting these ideas into practice is hairy, and I have no real idea how you'd approach a specific example.
 
I don't think you can in practice. We've passed the point where any one country (or even a small coalition of countries) can chain the wolf.

On one hand , you have to act quickly: Or you get a rerun of the mining tax.
On the other hand, you have to act slowly: Or you can potentially send knock on effects running through the economy and knock us into a recession. '

You basically need to get a significant amount of international power together and get them to agree to put an end to the race to the bottom (so there's nowhere for these companies to threaten to go , while you slowly reduce their entrenchment). But that's not going to happen because the most significant economic player in the world (the US) benefits the most from the current setup (and its economically precarious enough that even in a highly unlikely political climate in the short term that it would be wise for it to try it economically).

Economically we're living in a "libertarian" paradise and there's not much you can do about it.
 

danm999

Member
What a greasy little shit stain.

Makes sense politically, people want it, there's international momentum and it puts the Coalition in an uncomfortable spot, but since Labor has had ample chances to get this done it feels exceptionally slimy they're hopping on the bandwagon now.

Well, whatever, I hope it goes through. It'd be nice to beat the Yanks at least.
 

Jintor

Member
5NBHqgY.png
 

danm999

Member
Don't they have a S.Court decision due sometime this year though?

Obergefell v Hodges is expected late June. If the Bill passes before then, well Australia sneaks in over the line since the Bill is designed to amend the Marriage Act 1961 which is a Commonweath act. I guess it wouldn't come into force until later, but whatever, technicality.

From everything I've read, it seems likely SCOTUS is going to make SSM Federal Law. This is probably why this Shorten's move is also smart politics.

If Shorten's Bill is voted down, it's only really going to give the Coalition a few weeks breathing room before the story flares up again from the U.S making the same move, another pretty infamously religious country like Ireland, and that our Parliament is out of step with the community would be more stark.
 

wonzo

Banned
tbf both alex hawke and bum shedding are two of the biggest cum stains in aus politics and i say that as someone who readily admits the later should never be underestimated
 

Jintor

Member
Amazing, what's hilarious is that at least six cabinet members thought the idea was terrible. Either way this is going to get struck down in the courts so damn hard, government has no power over citizenship, only naturalisation.

what fucking idiot thought removing citizenship without actual rule of law/process was going to sneak through
 

Omikron

Member
anyway this can't pass right? the libs don't allow conscience votes and i can't remember labor's policy but I don't think they support it as a party platform right?

I'm sad to assume this is largely either media fluff, they're going to make it a party line, or the dark horse here, they think public support might actually shift the numbers a bit.

For reference here's the votes from 2012 last time someone brought up a bill
Literally just asked for this on twitter. Cheers.
 

danm999

Member
It's dead in the water without a conscience vote, so it seems more aimed at creating a wedge issue both inside the Coalition and between them and Labor.

Of course, there are some Coalition MPs keen to rip this band aid off before it becomes worse for the party's image (it's not like the issue is going away), but the ones who aren't, and the groups backing Abbott are the ones who saved his bacon in February so he's unlikely to cross them.
 

hidys

Member
anyway this can't pass right? the libs don't allow conscience votes and i can't remember labor's policy but I don't think they support it as a party platform right?

I'm sad to assume this is largely either media fluff, they're going to make it a party line, or the dark horse here, they think public support might actually shift the numbers a bit.

For reference here's the votes from 2012 last time someone brought up a bill

Equal marriage is in Labor's platform and has been since 2012, the conscience vote was the compromise to get it in there.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the 2012 voting numbers either. A number of MP's are very likely to change their minds largely because Labor now has a leader who supports it.

But Libs do need to have a conscience vote for this to have any chance of passing and even then it's far from guaranteed.
 

Fredescu

Member
I meant generally, as I took Jintors question to mean generally. I'm not following the news, so I don't know what they're doing now. It's always been the lib way to allow conscience votes because small l liberal oh the individual is so precious, and it's always been the lab way to vote as a block because sooooolidarity foreeeeeeeeeeeeeever. etc. Based on that alone, I'd take this to mean Labor is now 100% behind gay marriage as a party. I can't predict the lib response.
 

hidys

Member
I meant generally, as I took Jintors question to mean generally. I'm not following the news, so I don't know what they're doing now. It's always been the lib way to allow conscience votes because small l liberal oh the individual is so precious, and it's always been the lab way to vote as a block because sooooolidarity foreeeeeeeeeeeeeever. etc. Based on that alone, I'd take this to mean Labor is now 100% behind gay marriage as a party. I can't predict the lib response.

Oh okay.

But yeah Labor hasn't said anything about removing the conscience vote yet but they might with this bill.

Who knows.
 
Just by my rough maths its probably dead in the house even with a conscience vote unlike its a Coalition conscience vote and Labor party line. Going by the previous vote in 2012 (when Labor was half the parliament) the bill failed by 2 to 1, which indicates internal Labor support was 67/33 (interestingly Shorten was on the Affirmative even then, so credit there).

You need 76 votes.
Even making the assumption that the ALP has switched to 75% support , you're looking at 41 votes. Bandt will defintely vote for which is 42. Wilkie is an almost definite yes as well. So 43. McGowan's website also indicates support (44).

Palmer is an unknown (the party position is a conscience vote). That can probably be read as either personal support or indifference, so call it 45.

Katter will oppose.

That means of the 90 Coalition votes you need 31 or 32. That's a bit over 1/3. I'd guess internal soft support is around that level (or maybe a bit higher) but the hard support (which would withstand the inevitable pressure) is likely below that.

ETA - Coalition official line is every vote is a conscience vote, but in practice that hasn't been the case in at least the last decade. Their block voting history is only slightly weaker than Labor's. Even in cases where the Nats and Libs disagree they tend to do backroom horse trading, work out which way the numbers fall and then block vote.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Is there a term for the sorts of people who say things like "I wish the ALP focussed on more important matters" or "the economy should be the main issue right now" whenever an issue like this is brought up? Apart from inconsistent cowards, that is.
 
Is there a term for the sorts of people who say things like "I wish the ALP focussed on more important matters" or "the economy should be the main issue right now" whenever an issue like this is brought up? Apart from inconsistent cowards, that is.

I believe the word you are looking for is The right wing of the party or maybe "The Third Way" or maybe The Michael Costa's of this World, only looking out for themselves and what they can get out of the experience. The NSW right is packed full of them.

Maybe "The Gutless Way."


ETA - Coalition official line is every vote is a conscience vote, but in practice that hasn't been the case in at least the last decade. Their block voting history is only slightly weaker than Labor's. Even in cases where the Nats and Libs disagree they tend to do backroom horse trading, work out which way the numbers fall and then block vote.

While the Coalition doesn't caucus quite like the ALP, they do usually require cabinet to vote as one and quite frankly going against the prevailing view will do nothing for your job prospects and will likely result in you losing pre-selection next time round. The last few people to do it were Turnbull (can't sack him) and a few "conveniently retiring at the next election" senators like Sue Boyce. Pure conscience votes are complete BS.

There is absolutely no chance it will get up. Too many of the catholic conservative VIC/SA block still left in the ALP and too many ultra conservative unions like the "Shoppies" with too much say. The whole thing is just a poor attempt to wedge Abbott from Shorten.

I suspect over the next few days the ring wing media will switch into gear with the Devines/Bolts etc... of this world saying it's too early, it's not the right time, it's the economy stupid and by the weekend the government will have shored up the numbers and force the vote to be put off. Then Abbott will come out and say it's too early, it's not the right time, it's the economy stupid...
 

danm999

Member
Is there a term for the sorts of people who say things like "I wish the ALP focussed on more important matters" or "the economy should be the main issue right now" whenever an issue like this is brought up? Apart from inconsistent cowards, that is.

Wankers.

It's basically the political equivalent of concern trolling. And if they were so concerned with preserving politician's time and energy for the important issues™, they'd simply be trying to legislate it quickly, given it's the view of a significant majority of Australians, an international standard among countries we want to be compared to, and a legally and morally sound position.

It's the tactic of someone who is foolish enough to oppose it but smart enough not to openly state that opposition.
 

Shaneus

Member
I just had a theory: Could this have been timed with everyone's guesstimate that the most recent budget was that of a government going to the polls this year, and if it doesn't get passed by the Libs it will be a black mark to put against them come voting time?
 
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