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[A More Normal Bird]

Income tax is turning 100. Thought this was an interesting brief history: http://m.theage.com.au/business/comm...0150627-ghyla4

Good read, cheers. The line about conscripting capital in the war was spot on.

http://i.imgur.com/mIzM8OZm.jpg
"They're for boats"? Really? You have to be fucking kidding me.

To be fair, "We're for none" is the most honest bit of political sloganeering this country has seen in a good while.

Also, half of those lines are about tax, to which Labor can just yell "GP Tax, Schools Tax, Petrol Tax, GST!" Needs more death cult.

 

[Yagharek]

He paints a bleak picture...which I unfortunately believe to be a pretty accurate prediction of our future. Australia is heading into a very dark place.

Sadly I think we're already there. Unless you're coming at it from an indigenous perspective in which case we've always been there.

 

[Arksy]

I want to say "Oh quit being so melodramatic Jesus Christ.", but on the other hand I agree. At least economically.

It doesn't give me much hope when a law grad with decent grades, business experience and who can speak four languages (at varying levels) can't even get a job that requires more brain power than a monkey possesses.

/rant.

 

[Rubixcuba]

Ten 5pm news leading with story about Australia welfare payments at record high. Daily Telegraph has similar front page. Always find the thrust of these stories stating that welfare cheats are ruining the system concerning.

Whilst undoubtedly there are people who receive benefits unjustly, isn't the point of the welfare state to create a welfare safety net? The fact that its rising can hardly be a shocking given our aging/growing population.

I want to say "Oh quit being so melodramatic Jesus Christ.", but on the other hand I agree. At least economically.

It doesn't give me much hope when a law grad with decent grades, business experience and who can speak four languages (at varying levels) can't even get a job that requires more brain power than a monkey possesses.

/rant.

Did a honours year for Arts/Politics last year. Finishing off law degree now. Main employment is working at a Leagues club. Nothing better then being super duper qualified!

 

[Dead Man]

I want to say "Oh quit being so melodramatic Jesus Christ.", but on the other hand I agree. At least economically.

It doesn't give me much hope when a law grad with decent grades, business experience and who can speak four languages (at varying levels) can't even get a job that requires more brain power than a monkey possesses.

/rant.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-...ay-22000-for-a-job/6568174?WT.ac=statenews_sa

Good luck.

 

[wonzo]

Labor left tries to head off damaging split on boat turnbacks policy

Figures on the left are attempting to head off a damaging split within Labor over boat turnbacks, with refugee activist Brad Chilcott warning the party currently risks giving Tony Abbott a “free kick” on a politically sensitive issue.

Chilcott runs the national refugee advocacy group Welcome to Australia, and will be a South Australia left faction delegate at the July national conference.

He told Guardian Australia on Monday that Labor needed to accept boat turnbacks as part of the border protection policy mix because “you can’t trust conservative leaders not to politicise this issue.”

lovely

 

[Yagharek]

I want to say "Oh quit being so melodramatic Jesus Christ.", but on the other hand I agree. At least economically.

It doesn't give me much hope when a law grad with decent grades, business experience and who can speak four languages (at varying levels) can't even get a job that requires more brain power than a monkey possesses.

/rant.

If it's any consolation a science degree leaves a similar outcome.

More generally I guess I hope the liberals lose the next election but I don't want labor to win either. Both are morally repugnant at this point.

 

[JC Sera]

If it's any consolation a science degree leaves a similar outcome.

More generally I guess I hope the liberals lose the next election but I don't want labor to win either. Both are morally repugnant at this point.

Second on the science, also I have friends in engineering its not looking too bright for either

Science is dying in this country, a shame seeing as Australia used to be one of the top 10

 

[Dead Man]

Labor left tries to head off damaging split on boat turnbacks policy

lovely

Well there goes me publicising them any more. Wanker.

 

[Box of Bunnies]

Labor left tries to head off damaging split on boat turnbacks policy

lovely

"Change from within."

 

[Rubixcuba]

Labor left tries to head off damaging split on boat turnbacks policy

lovely

You are aware that MP's such as Melissa Parke came out today and again rejected the idea of Labor adopting the policy.

 

[Shandy]

Hmm... Unfortunately, he's right. All the LNP needs to do is say "But there are dole-bludging terrorists on those boats! maybeprobably..." For the time being, any time Labor is engaged on the issue, they're going to lose. It's not right, it's not fair, but it's the truth. The best Labor could do would be to pull figures showing, at the very least, what percentage of asylum seekers were rejected on the security grounds. Provided they're favourable, of course. I suppose even if they were, the rebuttal would be "Labor wants all these innocent people to die at sea!"

In retrospect, Labor should have fought harder to minimise its impact as a political issue, but here we are. Maybe the only solution is for the LNP to collapse under its own ego.

 

[Rubixcuba]

Hmm... Unfortunately, he's right. All the LNP needs to do is say "But there are dole-bludging terrorists on those boats! maybeprobably..." For the time being, any time Labor is engaged on the issue, they're going to lose. It's not right, it's not fair, but it's the truth. The best Labor could do would be to pull figures showing, at the very least, what percentage of asylum seekers were rejected on the security grounds. Provided they're favourable, of course. I suppose even if they were, the rebuttal would be "Labor wants all these innocent people to die at sea!"

In retrospect, Labor should have fought harder to minimise its impact as a political issue, but here we are. Maybe the only solution is for the LNP to collapse under its own ego.

Pretty much. Its a horrible horrible reality that will rightly be dealt with by a future government with some sort of Commission into our human rights abuses.

Yet, as a political issue, Australians voted for the Liberal party to stop the boats. Polls show Australians want a even harder stance against asylum seekers. It is the single biggest problem facing the Left/Labor/Greens.

 

[Arksy]

Scott Ludlam has heard about Benjamin Franklin??!?! Scandal!

Edit: Article was written by Julian Burnside, but reposted by Ludlam on Facebook. (One of my friends liked it).

World-view preserved. (Somewhat).

 

[Elaugaufein]

Labor are much worse at attacking the Coalition on their strong areas , than the Coalition are at attacking Labor. Labor has far more public trust when it comes to provision of services (health, education, etc) but that's never stopped the Coalition from running on a Low Taxes

Spoiler

(by cutting those things to the bone)

platform. Labor seems to have a much harder time arguing for the Provision of Services

Spoiler

which may require more tax

or by arguing common interest against National Security stuff. In large part I think because Labor has bought into the Coalition worldview on these things far more than the other way around.

Scott Ludlam has heard about Benjamin Franklin??!?! Scandal!

Edit: Article was written by Julian Burnside, but reposted by Ludlam on Facebook. (One of my friends liked it).

World-view preserved. (Somewhat).

Not sure why you're surprised. Ludlam's an Orwell fan as well , he's pretty much the Greens go to guy for arguing against excessive state/corporate power.

 

[Dead Man]

Labor are much worse at attacking the Coalition on their strong areas , than the Coalition are at attacking Labor. Labor has far more public trust when it comes to provision of services (health, education, etc) but that's never stopped the Coalition from running on a Low Taxes

Spoiler

(by cutting those things to the bone)

platform. Labor seems to have a much harder time arguing for the Provision of Services

Spoiler

which may require more tax

or by arguing common interest against National Security stuff. In large part I think because Labor has bought into the Coalition worldview on these things far more than the other way around.

I think it's because a large part of the Labor party agrees with the Lib position on them these days.

The party is a lost cause.

 

[Arksy]

Not sure why you're surprised. Ludlam's an Orwell fan as well , he's pretty much the Greens go to guy for arguing against excessive state/corporate power.

La la la la la not listening!!!

 

[Rubixcuba]

I think it's because a large part of the Labor party agrees with the Lib position on them these days.

The party is a lost cause.

That must explain how the last two Federal budgets have passed through unopposed. Thanks Labor.

 

[Dead Man]

That must explain how the last two Federal budgets have passed through unopposed. Thanks Labor.

Hey, keep on promoting what you think, must be nice to be so optimistic about an organisation. I disagree. I think the Labor party is run by corrupt, socially divisive, small minded, selfish, right wing fucks. The only reason some of the measures were opposed is because there was either political mileage available by doing so, or they were too extreme. I feel pretty comfortable saying that many members could not give a flying fuck about looking at the TPP, helping indigenous people, helping poor people, and generally being accountable, increasing renewable energy, or actually using research to find out what social measures improve society instead of being window dressing. Same problems Australia wide really, but the Labor party is juts a nice little view of the whole. Selfish wankers and conservative religious old people. Yay!! So they opposed gutting some public programmes, you want me to congratulate them for that? Fuck no. A LABOR party should be yelling from the rooftops by now about all sorts of shit but all we get is a whimper.

Sorry if that offends you, but maybe you should find a better party to belong to.

 

[Rubixcuba]

That's a rather pessimistic view. It's not undeserved but I disagree with the condemnation that Labor is a lost cause. There isn't an alternative that has a realistic chance of forming government.

 

[Dead Man]

That's a rather pessimistic view. It's not undeserved but I disagree with the condemnation that Labor is a lost cause. There isn't an alternative that has a realistic chance of forming government.

That's the problem. There is no alternative, so people support Labor which only encourages their bullshit. It's because of thinking like that that there is no alternative. Our electoral system is designed to prevent having to choose the lesser evil, and people still do it.

I am not going to support something just because they are less bad than the alternative.

 

[Box of Bunnies]

I mean, we could all maybe just support the Greens instead of throwing our lot in with Labor and naively hoping they stop going for the child molestation base. Maybe.

I guess just going for the actual alternative is less rewarding than trying to change the rotting core of an apple from within, though.

 

[Rubixcuba]

I'll elaborate.

At this current moment in time, for probably the next decade only the Coalition or Labor will have the ability to form an outright majority in the House of Reps. If you want to have a say in the direction out country takes, what policies we enact and laws we pass it is best to have some affiliation with either party.

Both parties are essentially the same in regards to policy, with the only major difference being in regard to workplace relations. Yet the legacy of Labor, due largely to Whitlam demonstrates that if you are in favour of a progressive Australia, the Labor party accommodates you.

If either party policies are of offence to you then by all means joins anyone of the other parties or become apathetic about Australia's future. Majority of people my age have zero interest in politics and think all parties are liars and corrupt. Yet I have the sense of knowledge to know that if I want to try and make the government better for myself and others then membership/advocacy for either Labor or Liberal is necessary.

Spoiler

Sorry Greenies

 

[Dead Man]

I'll elaborate.

At this current moment in time, for probably the next decade only the Coalition or Labor will have the ability to form an outright majority in the House of Reps. If you want to have a say in the direction out country takes, what policies we enact and laws we pass it is best to have some affiliation with either party.

Both parties are essentially the same in regards to policy, with the only major difference being in regard to workplace relations. Yet the legacy of Labor, due largely to Whitlam demonstrates that if you are in favour of a progressive Australia, the Labor party accommodates you.

If either party policies are of offence to you then by all means joins anyone of the other parties or become apathetic about Australia's future. Majority of people my age have zero interest in politics and think all parties are liars and corrupt. Yet I have the sense of knowledge to know that if I want to try and make the government better for myself and others then membership/advocacy for either Labor or Liberal is necessary.

Spoiler

Sorry Greenies

What a bunch of rot. Sorry, you can effect major changes without being affiliated with either major party. You can join action groups, you can start your own campaigns, and you can join other parties which can control the balance of power. You can also just fucking vote for someone else, which is all people need to do to effect change. It is not a law of nature that the current dichotomy needs to exist.

Your final paragraph is just offensively condescending. You have the sense of knowledge to back your own opinion but everyone else your own age is just shit. Wonderful.

Edit: On reflection, that probably makes the Labor party the perfect fit for you. Sorry if this post sounds harsh, but you have written rubbish here. One does not need to be in the a major party to help influence events in the political sphere. Better tell all the independent MP's to pack it up, right?

 

[Rubixcuba]

That all might happen, but it probably won't happen anytime soon. Idealism doesn't help when you are locked out of power. Duality in politcs isn't the end of the world.

I wasn't being condescending towards other 20 somethings, yet if we're all to vent on Facebook, Twitter, GAF about how much we hate politics and want to move to New Zealand then why not try and do something? I was citing that we need to be more engaged politically,and the best avenues for success lay with the major parties.

 

[Dead Man]

That all might happen, but it probably won't happen anytime soon. Idealism doesn't help when you are locked out of power. Duality in politcs isn't the end of the world.

I wasn't being condescending towards other 20 somethings, yet if we're all to vent on Facebook, Twitter, GAF about how much we hate politics and want to move to New Zealand then why not try and do something? I was citing that we need to be more engaged politically,and the best avenues for success lay with the major parties.

Sorry. My old as fuck arse says you are wrong. Engaged yes. With the majors? No fucking way. Pressure can be applied by removing votes from the majors. Every vote they lose means there is policy pressure on them to change.

 

[Dryk]

At this current moment in time, for probably the next decade only the Coalition or Labor will have the ability to form an outright majority in the House of Reps. If you want to have a say in the direction out country takes, what policies we enact and laws we pass it is best to have some affiliation with either party.

If I wanted to be strong-armed into joining a party for pragmatic reasons I'd move to a country with first past the post. That sort of thinking has no place in a preferential system.

That all might happen, but it probably won't happen anytime soon. Idealism doesn't help when you are locked out of power. Duality in politcs isn't the end of the world.

Well...

 

[Rubixcuba]

Eh. The pure brutal reality is that it's how things are. Rageing against it is a waste of energy that could be better directed towards reform of either major.

Completely agree to disagree.

 

[A More Normal Bird]

If I wanted to be strong-armed into joining a party for pragmatic reasons I'd move to a country with first past the post. That sort of thinking has no place in a preferential system.

Join the Liberals, vote Greens, preference Labor. Progress from all sides!

 

[Jintor]

Maintain the rage

 

[danm999]

Well even with all the Bill Shorten corruption and ABC business the latest Roy Morgan poll has said the LNP has only moved the needle 1% to 46.5% while the ALP is sitting on 53.5% 2PP.

http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/6...al-voting-intention-june-29-2015-201506290456

So I guess they'll be hammering national security message home until Parliament's back because it seems to be the only thing working, but apparently not with women or young voters (the groups the Coalition desperately needs to win the next election).

 

[Rubixcuba]

Encouraging numbers. Imagine if Labor were a real opposition!

 

[Elaugaufein]

I kind of agree with rubixcuba. Realistically Labor or Liberal are going to be the government for the foreseeable future (short of some Greek style horror) and they'll reliably vote together on a variety things that I find questionable at best, which means that even if Labor does find itself , the "Centrist" party ,there'll be no change on some issues for a looong time.

My preferred solution was to join the Greens, vote Green and preference Labor. On the grounds they are are marginally less terrible on pretty much everything*. It really doesn't matter to me if that has positive results through Greens holding the balance of power, Labor moving left to avoid loss of votes or the Greens someday forming government.


*In theory I agree more with small l liberals than significant and growing chunks of the Left regarding things like Censorship and Freedom of Speech (I see a lot to dislike about some of the attitudes I see building as the Social Left sees the Zeitgeist turn its way). But in practice, I'm yet to find a Conservative party that doesn't have an outrageously appalling record on this (see: The entire Cold War, the Religious Right, the Moral Majority, anything involving National Security or being Tough on Crime etc). It's weird how strong positions on those things tend to track more with being a potential victim than with political side (I would say if I was considerably more naive).

 

[CrankyKong]

If the libs win an early election, would that mean they would try a harsh austerity budget again, but maybe try to sell it better?

 

[JC Sera]

anyone watching QandA?

 

[Rubixcuba]

anyone watching QandA?

It's real good. Anne Aly and Lawrence Krauss are incredible.

 

[JC Sera]

It's real good. Anne Aly and Lawrence Krauss are incredible.

Aly is a treat to watch
"so when you say people are entitled to their views"...

 

[Fredescu]

If the libs win an early election, would that mean they would try a harsh austerity budget again, but maybe try to sell it better?

They would hide it better rather than sell it better, like the most recent budget. They've completely given up on debt reduction as a platform, so I don't think we'll see a repeat of that first budget.

 

[danm999]

It's real good. Anne Aly and Lawrence Krauss are incredible.

Aly was good, and Krauss was great.

It's edifying after a week like the one we've had, to have an outsider come in and basically tell you that you're sane and that your government has been completely hysterical and made a mountain out of a molehill. I mean we knew it ourselves but like, yeah, someone with more or less a fresh set of eyes to say that the Coalition gave Zaky more of a platform than Q&A ever did, and that they were governing by fear and divisiveness.

And when Tim Wilson tried to dummy spit at Tony Jones for being snarky towards the end and the rest of the panel and audience laughed him off. Perfection.

 

[bobnowhere]

I loved Wilson and Kelly telling Jones that the ABC was wrong to have Mallah on because... er... because... um... their idea of free speech doesn't apply to the ABC? Was that their convoluted reason? It almost came down to you did something wrong ABC and if you don't know what you did wrong, well we're not going to tell you! Na na na na na na na na na sell the ABC!!!!!

 

[shanshan310]

anyone watching QandA?

Paul Kelly completely hijacking the question on radicalisation to complain about the ABC instead was retarded.

 

[danm999]

I loved Wilson and Kelly telling Jones that the ABC was wrong to have Mallah on because... er... because... um... their idea of free speech doesn't apply to the ABC? Was that their convoluted reason? It almost came down to you did something wrong ABC and if you don't know what you did wrong, well we're not going to tell you! Na na na na na na na na na sell the ABC!!!!!

It was very strange. They kept trying to move the goalposts of why it was so terrible because Krauss cut through the banality of it all pretty early on and subsequently any outrage just fell flat.

At first Paul Kelly of the Australian said it was wrong to give him a platform at all, and that media organisations had to hold themselves to a higher standard. To which Tony Jones pointed that the Australian had done so too in 2012. There was really no response to this besides some off hand remark about how live TV is different.

Paul then sort of implied the ABC had better listen to the hints Malcolm Turnbull was dropping or there could be very serious consequences for them. I think he meant it in a realpolitick kind of way, but it sounded a lot like "nice public broadcaster you've got here, be a shame if anything was to happen to it".

Tim Wilson was even stranger in that he was basically implied of course everyone deserves a fair go and free speech but really the ABC fucked up and it was galling for the Parliamentary aide to be even questioned by such a disrespect churl.

He then suggested a more suitable representative of the Muslim community should have been found to which Aly basically nailed him for assuming Zaky spoke for all Muslims, rather than himself, and Krauss basically accused him of wanting a nice safe token Muslim to not rock the boat.

And when that wasn't working, he started to have a go at Tony calling him snarky or something, and then in the religion v. science segment when Tim off-handedly said everybody is entitled to voice their opinion and Tony turned to him and said "oh really", he tried to fly into something with pathos about how this attitude demonstrated Tony learned nothing, but the rest of the panel and audience just laughed as he tried, cutting the legs out from under quite spectacularly.

 

[Yagharek]

I'll elaborate.

At this current moment in time, for probably the next decade only the Coalition or Labor will have the ability to form an outright majority in the House of Reps. If you want to have a say in the direction out country takes, what policies we enact and laws we pass it is best to have some affiliation with either party.

Both parties are essentially the same in regards to policy, with the only major difference being in regard to workplace relations. Yet the legacy of Labor, due largely to Whitlam demonstrates that if you are in favour of a progressive Australia, the Labor party accommodates you.

If either party policies are of offence to you then by all means joins anyone of the other parties or become apathetic about Australia's future. Majority of people my age have zero interest in politics and think all parties are liars and corrupt. Yet I have the sense of knowledge to know that if I want to try and make the government better for myself and others then membership/advocacy for either Labor or Liberal is necessary.

Spoiler

Sorry Greenies

I'd argue never to compromise your beliefs.

I'd sooner be unpopular and have my preferences go unfulfilled than tacitly support something I'm morally opposed to as a compromise.

If that means going unrepresented then so be it. At least I can say there's no blood on my hands.

 

[Dryk]

If you ever want to lose the last vestiges of your faith in humanity type "Anne Aly" into Twitter and read some of the comments

 

[Elaugaufein]

If you ever want to lose the last vestiges of your faith in humanity type "Anne Aly" into Twitter and read some of the comments

Okay, I may be a little warped scalewise because I voluntarily read Fundies Say the Darnedest things most days, but I haven't seen anything there that I'd rank as more than irritatingly idiotic.

ETA - A quick look at the current feed has it at over 50% supportive too. Though there's a bit of a cluster of negative at the top for some reason.

 

[A More Normal Bird]

I generally try to tune out Q&A (somewhat unsuccessfully most of the time) but tonight's was pretty hilarious (as was Media Watch before it). Most of my thoughts have been covered by others' posts, but to play devil's advocate, Wilson was probably right when he said this isn't strictly about free speech. The problem then becomes, well what the hell is it about?

It's not about giving a voice to ISIS, because he didn't do that. It's not about cherrypicking a fringe lunatic over a more qualified questioner, because the guy's been in the media dozens of times and asked a question on a show where people ask to ask questions. It's not about the safety of those in the audience or on the show (lol Turnbull). It's about the fact that there's a frothing horde that is desperate to attack the ABC on ideological grounds any chance it gets that can't admit that it worked itself into a lather based on a boneheaded misinterpretation of a single sentence and so resorts to post-hoc rationalisations for its outrage, like referring to other unsavoury elements of his character or claiming that asking a Government MP to defend his policy when questioned by someone who would have been directly impacted by it is somehow gotcha journalism.

Also Krauss made a comment about Fred Nile being an example of extremist views on Q&A and I made a joke about that last week so I feel good.

 

[Dryk]

Okay, I may be a little warped scalewise because I voluntarily read Fundies Say the Darnedest things most days, but I haven't seen anything there that I'd rank as more than irritatingly idiotic.

It's probably just because my anti-intellectual fuse has been super short lately then

 

[Arksy]

This entire saga is so fucking pathetic. Compare and contrast when John Howard was on QandA and had a question by David Hicks, and John Howard said it was an amazing country that allowed that sort of exchange to happen.

 

[Shaneus]

Aly was good, and Krauss was great.

It's edifying after a week like the one we've had, to have an outsider come in and basically tell you that you're sane and that your government has been completely hysterical and made a mountain out of a molehill. I mean we knew it ourselves but like, yeah, someone with more or less a fresh set of eyes to say that the Coalition gave Zaky more of a platform than Q&A ever did, and that they were governing by fear and divisiveness.

And when Tim Wilson tried to dummy spit at Tony Jones for being snarky towards the end and the rest of the panel and audience laughed him off. Perfection.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I loved about it too. That, and the few times there was one person clapping after Wilson or Kelly said something. Fucking hilarious when even the other 39% of Coalition supporters in the audience are smart enough to know not to fucking clap.

Plibersek wasn't bad, either. I hope Shorten just steps aside and lets her lead the party.

It's real good. Anne Aly and Lawrence Krauss are incredible.

Yeah, I thought both were pretty amazing last night. The questions asked by the audience were pretty good as well. But yeah, Aly had me really fucking impressed (and Krauss always does). Is she any relation to Waleed Aly, or is it just a common surname to those of Middle Eastern origin?

 

[Omikron]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I loved about it too. That, and the few times there was one person clapping after Wilson or Kelly said something. Fucking hilarious when even the other 39% of Coalition supporters in the audience are smart enough to know not to fucking clap.

Plibersek wasn't bad, either. I hope Shorten just steps aside and lets her lead the party.


Yeah, I thought both were pretty amazing last night. The questions asked by the audience were pretty good as well. But yeah, Aly had me really fucking impressed (and Krauss always does). Is she any relation to Waleed Aly, or is it just a common surname to those of Middle Eastern origin?

Plibersek running off a list of parables was pretty dull though.