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[Yagharek]

References: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-28/hennessy-good-on-melbourne-for-standing-up-to-the-abf/6732998

Twitter: https://twitter.com/hashtag/BorderForce

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-28/operation-fortitude-cancelled/6733008

A major policing operation planned for Melbourne's CBD this weekend has been cancelled after a backlash over plans to include Australian Border Force (ABF) officials in the crackdown.

Earlier, the ABF had said it would be checking people's visas on the streets of the city centre as part of the operation, which also involved Victoria Police and other agencies.

The original announcement quoted ABF regional commander for Victoria and Tasmania Don Smith as saying officers would be positioned at various locations around the city and would speak "with any individual we cross paths with".

The ABF then issued another statement saying: "To be clear, the ABF does not and will not stop people at random in the streets ... the ABF does not target of the basis of race, religion, or ethnicity".

More details were expected to be released in a press conference at 2:00pm, but the event was cancelled after demonstrators began assembling outside Melbourne's Flinders Street Station to protest against the operation.

In summary:

Today the Australian Border Force announced this weekend they were going to be conducting random visa checks in Melbourne. This was part of a wider program where Victorian state police were going to be conducting a campaign against "anti social behaviour including drunken-ness, safety on trains, nightclub district behaviour etc".

The Australian Border Force announced their intentions to do visa checks, and Melbourne citizens staged a large protest on short notice.

Visa crackdown has since been cancelled.

Some press releases c/- Wonzo and danm999 in AusPoliGaf

Best succinct description I've heard is that Dutton is a man who looks like he locks his keys in his car once a week.

Edit; and the fun just never stops;

Just some random ones from Twitter

Good job, Melbourne.

edit:

Original press release for Kenshin001's benefit.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/relea...gency-outfit-to-target-crime-in-melbourne-cbd

ABF joining inter-agency outfit to target crime in Melbourne CBD
28-08-2015 -
This weekend Australian Border Force (ABF) officers will for the first time join forces with a diverse team of transport and enforcement agencies to target crime in the Melbourne Central Business District (CBD) as part of Operation Fortitude.

Tonight and tomorrow evening (Friday 28 and Saturday 29 August 2015) Metro Trains, Yarra Trams, the Sheriff’s Office, Taxi Services Commission and the ABF will join Victoria Police as part of the inter-agency operation.

With a particular focus on people travelling to, from and around the CBD, the group of agencies will work together to support the best interests of Melbournians, targeting everything from anti-social behaviour to outstanding warrants.

ABF Regional Commander Victoria and Tasmania, Don Smith, is proud the ABF will be participating in the operation.

“While the ABF regularly conducts a range of compliance field-work, this is the first time we’ve been involved in an inter-agency operation of this nature and we’re very proud be able to support each of our organisations to achieve our common mission of promoting a secure and cohesive society here in Melbourne.”

“ABF officers will be positioned at various locations around the CBD speaking with any individual we cross paths with,” Mr Smith said.

“You need to be aware of the conditions of your visa; if you commit visa fraud you should know it’s only a matter of time before you’re caught out.”

The inter-agency outfit will continue to work together on an ongoing basis to target crime in and around the Melbourne CBD to make the city a safer place for everyone.

Media opportunity
Operation Fortitude will be launched by representatives from each participating agency at 2pm today (Friday 28 August 2015) on the steps of Flinders Street Railway Station.

edit 2:

Clarifying statement on Operation Fortitude
28-08-2015 -
The Australian Border Force (ABF) will not be ‘stopping people at random’ in Melbourne to ‘check people’s papers’ as reported in media this morning regarding Operation Fortitude.

As stated in this morning’s press release, the ABF will be assisting in a joint operation led by Victoria Police in Melbourne this weekend.

To be clear:

This is a joint agency operation led by Victoria Police.
The ABF will assist other agencies in this operation by conducting background visa checks on individuals who are referred to us by Victoria Police and other agencies.
The ABF is but one of eight agencies assisting in this operation.
The ABF does not and will not stop people at random in the streets and does not target on the basis of race, religion, or ethnicity.
Joint operations of this type are common and were previously conducted by Departmental immigration officers.
ABF activity will occur at only two of the numerous locations where Operation Fortitude will be carried out in the Melbourne CBD this weekend.

 

[Textured Monk]

How would this even work? If I was stopped and said I was a citizen do they just let me walk off? Do I have to prove it? Do they have the power to demand that at random?

 

[chaobreaker]

So what, they were planning to go around to asking non-white people for their visas? Gross.

 

[Yagharek]

How would this even work? If I was stopped and said I was a citizen do they just let me walk off? Do I have to prove it? Donthry have the power to demand that at random?

Apparently they need a valid reason in order to request someone show them their papers. How else are they going to do it other than based on skin colour? Accent?

Given that the majority of visa fraud in Australia is actually committed by white, english tourists on working holiday visas it makes me wonder what the actual numbers of successful investigations would have resulted if it hadn't been cancelled.

 

[legend166]

Apparently they need a valid reason in order to request someone show them their papers. How else are they going to do it other than based on skin colour? Accent?

Given that the majority of visa fraud in Australia is actually committed by white, english tourists on working holiday visas it makes me wonder what the actual numbers of successful investigations would have resulted if it hadn't been cancelled.

I thought that was the case too but the majority is Chinese and Malaysian.

http://m.smh.com.au/federal-politic...g-illegally-in-australia-20141226-12dxod.html

 

[CLEEK]

Given that the majority of visa fraud in Australia is actually committed by white, english tourists on working holiday visas it makes me wonder what the actual numbers of successful investigations would have resulted if it hadn't been cancelled.

This was clearly a Tony Abbott stunt, so race based for sure.

But if it had been a genuine attempt to find people with invalid visas, you can spot British and Irish backpackers a fucking mile off. No need to hear them speak.

 

[HariKari]

Ignorant American question - is there a particular reason for these overt attempts to discriminate against immigrants? Why is immigration such a major issue for Australia? To the casual observer, things seem to be going well.

 

[reptilescorpio]

Apparently they need a valid reason in order to request someone show them their papers. How else are they going to do it other than based on skin colour? Accent?

Given that the majority of visa fraud in Australia is actually committed by white, english tourists on working holiday visas it makes me wonder what the actual numbers of successful investigations would have resulted if it hadn't been cancelled.

Likely zero. It was all a failed PR stunt. Bombed miserably and made them look even worse than before.

 

[Jintor]

Ignorant American question - is there a particular reason for these overt attempts to discriminate against immigrants? Why is immigration such a major issue for Australia? To the casual observer, things seem to be going well.

the average punter inexplicably responds well to 'they're taking our job/tax money get in the queue' rhetoric' and politicians have jumped on it.

 

[masterwayne]

Was warned by the Uni about this in the morning, and immediately thought, "What are they thinking?!" As an international student here, some of the stuff (like this) boggles my mind.

Good job, people of Melbourne!

 

[Darren870]

Given that the majority of visa fraud in Australia is actually committed by white, english tourists on working holiday visas it makes me wonder what the actual numbers of successful investigations would have resulted if it hadn't been cancelled.

While the whole stop and ask people their Visa makes 0 sense, why do people keep saying this?

This may have been the case in the early 2000's but its not anymore. Heck, Americans have passed the Brits as over stayers.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...g-illegally-in-australia-20141226-12dxod.html

In the end they may have caught what, one or two people for hundreds of man hours during the weekend. It would make more sense to target businesses/operations that hire over stayers. Eg Farms

 

[dejay]

You could see this shit coming as soon as the name Border Force was settled on.

 

[bobnowhere]

The head of Borderforce said the initial press release was 'clumsily worded,' which I really hope is true. Never attribute malice when abject stupidity is a better explanation, this current government in one. Though he didn't explain why Borderforce were there and what they were actually going to do beyond providing basic immigration control.

 

[Aon]

Ignorant American question - is there a particular reason for these overt attempts to discriminate against immigrants? Why is immigration such a major issue for Australia? To the casual observer, things seem to be going well.

They are going well, outside of a few issues, we've got absolutely nothing to complain about. However, much like our entire history, Australia is awkwardly at once very proud of her history as a multicultural, immigrant nation while containing a deeply saddening segment of (largely white) population who're deeply anti-immigration when not outright xenophobic.

Now while this is obviously the case for much of the first world, I find it particularly sad here, as we're a tiny nation of people occupying a huge country, who're doing pretty well economically. We share a neighbourhood with one of the world's most densely populated, poorest regions.

Fortifying our borders and our northern oceans, keeping asylum seekers and refugees in appalling conditions for years at a time in our off-shore processing camps reflects so poorly on our spirit of generosity as a nation.

 

[Yagharek]

The head of Borderforce said the initial press release was 'clumsily worded,' which I really hope is true. Never attribute malice when abject stupidity is a better explanation, this current government in one. Though he didn't explain why Borderforce were there and what they were actually going to do beyond providing basic immigration control.

The press release probably went through several layers of approval before going public

 

[Machina]

I think whatever government it was that thought this was a good idea just became terminal.

 

[danm999]

I think whatever government it was that thought this was a good idea just became terminal.

This government has been terminal for a while now.

 

[Machina]

This government has been terminal for a while now.

Oh, good. Then that just proves they're even stupider than I thought and deserve to go even more. Your move, Australia.

 

[Dryk]

I think whatever government it was that thought this was a good idea just became terminal.

The government is already terminal, but the only issue they can get their polls to respond to is immigration. Announcing this early is essentially stemming from their desperation to have constant press releases so they can look like they're doing something.

 

[i_am_ben]

How would this even work?

How would they even check someone's visa on the street?

 

[danm999]

How would this even work?

How would they even check someone's visa on the street?

 

[Darren870]

How would this even work?

How would they even check someone's visa on the street?

Yea, well this is the part that makes 0 sense. In the article I linked it says there are ~62,000 unaccounted for people likely still in Australia. Which is what ~.25% of the population. Obviously there is great concentration in the cities, but even if all 62,000 were in Melbourne (pop 4mil) that would only be ~1.5% of the population. So if they stopped 100 people they might get 1, in my hypothetical situation. Talk about a waste of man hours.

Then you go about how do you even check for valid visas? You aren't even issued with a visa, its all electronic. So its not like you would be carrying around paper with you, or an ID card like they have in other countries.

To me it would make more sense to go after business that hire illegals. You would probably have a greater concentration there and would be easier to find them.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Japan does something like this all the time. I was stopped and made to prove I wasn't an illegal immigrant three times in one week at the station near my work. Amazingly none of my Asian colleagues were stopped even once! What are the odds??

 

[CLEEK]

Ignorant American question - is there a particular reason for these overt attempts to discriminate against immigrants? Why is immigration such a major issue for Australia? To the casual observer, things seem to be going well.

Things are going well. It's a very stable country. Australia weathered the GFC better than most countries, help by its mining boom. The country ranks at the top end of pretty much any global index. Melbourne had won most livable city in the world 5 years in a row.

But going back to the first point, its political stability and high quality of life means there are far fewer core political issues. The federal/state system means that individual states hold a lot of power.

I've lived here for over a decade. Every single federal election has had immigration as a key topic. The ruling Liberal (not actual liberal, but the Aussie Republican equivalent) party are anti-immigration in their rhetoric, specifically illegal 'boat people' coming in from Asia. Abbott is a wanker, and since he took office, there is so much propaganda about immigrants and terrorism.

Today's visa check bollocks was just a PR stunt by a federal dept. It had nothing to do with there being an actual major issue with illegal immigrants. Not to the extent it needs stop and frisk officers demanding to see your papers, which is unprecedented and in my time in this country.

 

[Black_Stride]

How would this even work?

How would they even check someone's visa on the street?

Dont how they were fully planning on doing it.
But in Sydney, ive had friends who have been stopped say at an RBT(Random breath test) and when they give their drivers license the cop checks the police database and the immigration database.

Overstay...you going to Detention.

But the worst of these situations has been my friends who have been profiled.

One guy was Smoking a ciggerette too close to a train station i guess...police asked him for his ID and checked his Visa.
Got sent to a detention center....saddest part he has been in Australia for 11 years, was illegal for like 8 months, has his whole family here...but they dont care, they sent to detention anyway.
Its like they dont care these are human beings.Its really messed up.

 

[30yearsofhurt]

What was a good idea turned into a farce by Herr Abbott and co.

Kudos Melbourne for turning out at such short notice and putting the kibosh on this trio of bastardry.

 

[Kenshin001]

How would this even work?

How would they even check someone's visa on the street?

I think the way it was supposed to work was if you were stopped for anti social behaviour and you were not an Australian citizen they would check your visa status. Much the same way a cop would check for outstanding warrants. Cops don't check for visas. So if there was some drunk British guy pissing in an alley they'd check to see if he had overstayed his visa. I don't think they'd just stop a random Asian or Middle Eastern person and demand papers, given most likely those people are born and bred in Australia.

 

[Yagharek]

Japan does something like this all the time. I was stopped and made to prove I wasn't an illegal immigrant three times in one week at the station near my work. Amazingly none of my Asian colleagues were stopped even once! What are the odds??

I don't know what the makeup of the city you were in is like, but Melbourne is incredibly diverse. SE Asian, African, Arab, Chinese, Japanese, India, Western and Eastern European, including massive Greek and Italian populations.

Pretty much anywhere you go in Melbourne it is guaranteed you will be next to someone from another country, or who has parents who were.

You simply can't stop anyone in Melbourne and assume they aren't here legitimately. That's why this whole exercise was pointless - it would only inconvenience people who are here because this is their home, based on prejudice because of skin colour.

 

[Darren870]

I think the way it was supposed to work was if you were stopped for anti social behaviour and you were not an Australian citizen they would check your visa status. Much the same way a cop would check for outstanding warrants. Cops don't check for visas. So if there was some drunk British guy pissing in an alley they'd check to see if he had overstayed his visa. I don't think they'd just stop a random Asian or Middle Eastern person and demand papers, given most likely those people are born and bred in Australia.

I think that's likely what was the case as well.

Though the question comes up of why this isn't done in some back end computer system already. Rather then wasting my, as a tax payer, money putting twice the amount of people out in a already safe city.

A "we are now checking visa status when crimes are committed" statement would have made more sense. No one would have cared either.

 

[danm999]

I think the way it was supposed to work was if you were stopped for anti social behaviour and you were not an Australian citizen they would check your visa status. Much the same way a cop would check for outstanding warrants. Cops don't check for visas. So if there was some drunk British guy pissing in an alley they'd check to see if he had overstayed his visa. I don't think they'd just stop a random Asian or Middle Eastern person and demand papers, given most likely those people are born and bred in Australia.

To be totally honest it wasn't supposed to work period.

The last thing you want to do before launching an operation to catch visa over-stayers is to tell them where and when you're going to be looking for them in a national press release.

This was supposed to make the government look strong and competent and energetic to the electorate and boy did it backfire spectacularly.

 

[Kenshin001]

I suggest everyone watches the interview with the ABF commissioner. It was a joint operation, the ABF was supposed to play a secondary role to the Victorian Police and only act on their referral. The PR was clumsily worded and people jumped to conclusions that the jackbooted ABF would be demanding papers from brown people. Big fuck up on their part, which he freely admits, but it had nothing to do with racial profiling.

 

[Black_Stride]

I think the way it was supposed to work was if you were stopped for anti social behaviour and you were not an Australian citizen they would check your visa status. Much the same way a cop would check for outstanding warrants. Cops don't check for visas. So if there was some drunk British guy pissing in an alley they'd check to see if he had overstayed his visa. I don't think they'd just stop a random Asian or Middle Eastern person and demand papers, given most likely those people are born and bred in Australia.

I think that's likely what was the case as well.

Though the question comes up of why this isn't done in some back end computer system already. Rather then wasting my, as a tax payer, money putting twice the amount of people out in a already safe city.

A "we are now checking visa status when crimes are committed" statement would have made more sense. No one would have cared either.

The thing is this already happens.
Has been happening all this year at the very least.
If you are stopped and your Drivers License is International or has Condition Q on it.
They check your Visa status on the spot.

Maybe this was supposed to be some sort of internal memo, for Melbourne, cuz In sydney this already happens, anytime someone is stopped for pretty much anything and they check your ID and it isnt local your VISA status is checked.

 

[danm999]

I suggest everyone watches the interview with the ABF commissioner. It was a joint operation, the ABF was supposed to play a secondary role to the Victorian Police and only act on their referral. The PR was clumsily worded and people jumped to conclusions that the jackbooted ABF would be demanding papers from brown people. Big fuck up on their part, which he freely admits, but it had nothing to do with racial profiling.

You are falling for the poorly executed clean up spin.

If they were only to handle referrals from the Victorian police, why does their original press release say they'll be posted at various locations and speaking with any individual they cross paths with (ie; not just people referred to them)?

Why would they even mention visa fraud in that context?

 

[30yearsofhurt]

I suggest everyone watches the interview with the ABF commissioner. It was a joint operation, the ABF was supposed to play a secondary role to the Victorian Police and only act on their referral. The PR was clumsily worded and people jumped to conclusions that the jackbooted ABF would be demanding papers from brown people. Big fuck up on their part, which he freely admits, but it had nothing to do with racial profiling.

Quaedvlieg is a pea-brained big-noting crack-Hitler. He has grand ambitions and scant ability. He's the reason customs officials have guns.

 

[Mohonky]

I dont understand the thread title and the OP's contents given how OP says nothing of a sort, OP just assumes or implies what they think it will be. Is this one of those twitter things where uni students go bonkers over shit just to get riled up and protest something?

 

[reptilescorpio]

While the whole stop and ask people their Visa makes 0 sense, why do people keep saying this?

This may have been the case in the early 2000's but its not anymore. Heck, Americans have passed the Brits as over stayers.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...g-illegally-in-australia-20141226-12dxod.html

In the end they may have caught what, one or two people for hundreds of man hours during the weekend. It would make more sense to target businesses/operations that hire over stayers. Eg Farms

The hard truth is the government doesn't ACTUALLY want to crack down on cheap migrant labour being used by bigger businesses until the businesses want to get rid of them.

 

[akira28]

good one on those protesters.

 

[Kenshin001]

You are falling for the poorly executed clean up spin.

If they were only to handle referrals from the Victorian police, why does their original press release say they'll be posted at various locations and speaking with any individual they cross paths with (ie; not just people referred to them)?

Why would they even mention visa fraud in that context?

He explains it in the interview. The journalists keep asking him the same question over and over because they don't want to accept his answer that it was poorly worded.

 

[reptilescorpio]

I dont understand the thread title and the OP's contents given how OP says nothing of a sort, OP just assumes or implies what they think it will be. Is this one of those twitter things where uni students go bonkers over shit just to get riled up and protest something?

The commander in charge was quoted saying they would check people they ran into on the street.

 

[danm999]

He explains it in the interview. The journalists keep asking him the same question over and over because they don't want to accept his answer that it was poorly worded.

Because it makes no sense. I've seen the interview.

Saying you'll be stationed at various locations and speaking to everyone you encounter is in no way code for "we'll only talk to people who are referred to us by the Victorian police". They aren't even in the same galaxy. They're completely contradictory.

And if it was poorly worded they wouldn't have first blamed the media for misreporting something they actually said (see the second release in the OP), and the Minister wouldn't be declining to comment on the basis of it being an operational matter. They trotted out other excuses first and when those didn't stick they went with "oh we worded it poorly".

Nor would the Victorian police have almost immediately withdrawn from the operation. Turns out they and the State government were as blindsided by this as the rest of us.

This was a huge overreach by the Border Force that got slapped down almost immediately by the public.

 

[Kenshin001]

Because it makes no sense.

Saying you'll be stationed at various locations and speaking to everyone you encounter is in no way code for "we'll only talk to people who are referred to us by the Victorian police". They aren't even in the same galaxy.

And if it was poorly worded they wouldn't have first blamed the media for misreporting something they actually said (see the second release in the OP), and the Minister wouldn't be declining to comment on the basis of it being an operational matter. Nor would the Victorian police have almost immediately withdrawn from the operation.

This was a huge overreach by the Border Force that got slapped down almost immediately by the public.

Read the PR then:

Clarifying statement on Operation Fortitude
28-08-2015 -
The Australian Border Force (ABF) will not be ‘stopping people at random’ in Melbourne to ‘check people’s papers’ as reported in media this morning regarding Operation Fortitude.

As stated in this morning’s press release, the ABF will be assisting in a joint operation led by Victoria Police in Melbourne this weekend.

To be clear:

This is a joint agency operation led by Victoria Police.
The ABF will assist other agencies in this operation by conducting background visa checks on individuals who are referred to us by Victoria Police and other agencies.
The ABF is but one of eight agencies assisting in this operation.
The ABF does not and will not stop people at random in the streets and does not target on the basis of race, religion, or ethnicity.
Joint operations of this type are common and were previously conducted by Departmental immigration officers.
ABF activity will occur at only two of the numerous locations where Operation Fortitude will be carried out in the Melbourne CBD this weekend.

For some reason the pertinent information was edited out from the OP. Maybe Yagharek can post the whole release instead of the edited version which gives more context and information. It was a joint operation led by VP and they would be at only two locations. Speaking to people does not mean stopping people at random and checking their papers. Did the Fairfax press write that? I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[danm999]

Read the PR then:



For some reason the pertinent information was edited out from the OP. Maybe Yagharek can post the whole release instead of the edited version which gives more context and information. It was a joint operation led by VP and they would be at only two locations. Speaking to people does not mean stopping people at random and checking their papers. Did the Fairfax press write that? I wouldn't be surprised.

Lol what? Did the Fairfax press write the contradictory press statements issued by Border Force?

No, but thanks for showing your hand on this one.

 

[Yagharek]

Read the PR then:



For some reason the pertinent information was edited out from the OP. Maybe Yagharek can post the whole release instead of the edited version which gives more context and information. It was a joint operation led by VP and they would be at only two locations. Speaking to people does not mean stopping people at random and checking their papers. Did the Fairfax press write that? I wouldn't be surprised.

You mean this one? OP updated for you.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/relea...gency-outfit-to-target-crime-in-melbourne-cbd

ABF joining inter-agency outfit to target crime in Melbourne CBD
28-08-2015 -
This weekend Australian Border Force (ABF) officers will for the first time join forces with a diverse team of transport and enforcement agencies to target crime in the Melbourne Central Business District (CBD) as part of Operation Fortitude.

Tonight and tomorrow evening (Friday 28 and Saturday 29 August 2015) Metro Trains, Yarra Trams, the Sheriff’s Office, Taxi Services Commission and the ABF will join Victoria Police as part of the inter-agency operation.

With a particular focus on people travelling to, from and around the CBD, the group of agencies will work together to support the best interests of Melbournians, targeting everything from anti-social behaviour to outstanding warrants.

ABF Regional Commander Victoria and Tasmania, Don Smith, is proud the ABF will be participating in the operation.

“While the ABF regularly conducts a range of compliance field-work, this is the first time we’ve been involved in an inter-agency operation of this nature and we’re very proud be able to support each of our organisations to achieve our common mission of promoting a secure and cohesive society here in Melbourne.”

“ABF officers will be positioned at various locations around the CBD speaking with any individual we cross paths with,” Mr Smith said.

“You need to be aware of the conditions of your visa; if you commit visa fraud you should know it’s only a matter of time before you’re caught out.”

The inter-agency outfit will continue to work together on an ongoing basis to target crime in and around the Melbourne CBD to make the city a safer place for everyone.

Media opportunity
Operation Fortitude will be launched by representatives from each participating agency at 2pm today (Friday 28 August 2015) on the steps of Flinders Street Railway Station.

 

[kaye]

Rare thing for the Australian nanny state to back down on anything.

 

[30yearsofhurt]

Read the PR then:



For some reason the pertinent information was edited out from the OP. Maybe Yagharek can post the whole release instead of the edited version which gives more context and information. It was a joint operation led by VP and they would be at only two locations. Speaking to people does not mean stopping people at random and checking their papers. Did the Fairfax press write that? I wouldn't be surprised.

The original press statement that you seemingly are keen on ignoring said they would be running checks on people they "crossed paths with".

 

[FUME5]

Ill conceived and moronic in execution?

Sounds about right.

 

[kmag]

It's Australia, racism is basically the national sport at this point.

 

[Yagharek]

It's Australia, racism is basically the national sport at this point.

Probably because we're shit at cricket.

 

[Kenshin001]

You mean this one?

No the one I just posted, the one that clarifies the conditions of the operation quite clearly. I know you don't want to post it but for the sake of an honest discussion based on all available information you should.

 

[Yagharek]

No the one I just posted, the one that clarifies the conditions of the operation quite clearly. I know you don't want to post it but for the sake of an honest discussion based on all available information you should.

You asked for the whole press release; I posted it. It was in the OP from the start.

The clarification only exists because the original was such a monumental fuckup.