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Austria bans the burqa

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L

Lime

Member
Prohibiting ‘anti-social symbols’ such as the veil will boost integration efforts, Foreign Minister Sebastian Kurz said.

Austria’s grand coalition government will ban the full-face veil, Die Welt reported Tuesday.

The center-right Austrian People’s Party (ÖVP) and the Social Democratic Party (SPÖ) agreed late Monday on the government’s reform plan, which focuses on job creation, economic growth and education, despite the prospect political in-fighting would prompt early elections.

The plan includes new security measures that will tighten controls on asylum seekers, though the SPÖ initially refused to back them, and an integration package spearheaded by Foreign Minister Sebastian Kurz, which calls for added funding for German language and integration classes and a burqa ban.

Prohibiting “anti-social symbols” such as the burqa will help Austria “better integrate those migrants who are allowed to stay,” Kurz said in a video statement, adding he was glad the SPÖ had “finally” agreed to the deal.

France was the first European country to ban the burqa in public in 2010, followed by similar legislation in Belgium and Bulgaria. In the Netherlands, MPs have proposed a ban that does not completely outlaw the veil in public, but forbids it in certain situations for security reasons.
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http://www.politico.eu/article/austria-bans-the-burqa/
 
R

Rembrandt

Banned
Fucking stupid. I didn't know France banned it either, which is probably even stupider considering France is better than Austria.
 
Z

Zaru

Member
There are only an estimated 150 or so Burqa wearers in this country.
Whatever effect this is supposed to have would almost entirely be symbolical.
 
S

ShironRedshift

Member
Prohibiting ‘anti-social symbols' such as the veil will boost integration efforts, Foreign Minister Sebastian Kurz said.
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What nonsense. All that will do is make them feel unwanted and disrespected, making integration more difficult, not less so. And if someone is being forced to wear it against their will, now that they're not allowed to wear it, they'll just be forced to stay home and now allowed to go out at all, further isolating them and thus making things worse for them if anything. There's no benefit to this other than people being terrified and losing their minds over a piece of cloth (which, while it can and indeed is used to oppress, is only a symptom of that oppression and thus removing it changes nothing and doesn't actually benefit those women's lives in any way--all it changes is that people don't have to see it in public anymore, but the oppression itself remains unabated) not having to look at it anymore I guess. But for the women themselves, there is no gain. Absolutely none.
 
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Engell

Member
fyi this is a burqa
736298-burqa.jpg
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I'm fine with banning this
 
P

psychowave

Member
As I mentioned in another thread where this subject came up, I'm against the use of the burqa as I believe it is oppressive to women, but I don't think foreign countries banning it is the way to liberate these women.
 
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Ethelwulf

Member
I really don't like it, but banning it sounds stupid. It is like banning long hair just because someone doesn't like it.
 
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Member
Engell said:
fyi this is a burqa
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A disgrace to women. I would however, be interested to know how much effort was first put into trying to re-educate and integrate. As a liberal thinker, I often think discussion and education are best to try first, before things such as bans.

Fliesen said:
To be fair, i'm much more mad about the fact that - along with this - they banned women in certain jobs (teachers, as a prime example) from wearing a hijab / headscarf.

There's certain arguments to be made about the burqa.
The issue will be that women who were previously wearing a burqa in public, will go on to live as shut ins, not going outside anymore. It's not like they'll throw their burqa into the trash yelling "Finally, i'm free!".
Someone is still making them wear the burqa, be it their husband / family or their belief.

I disagree with any kind of clothing ban - out of principle - when it's targeting a religion and i feel these measures are counterproductive to integration, especially the hijab ban for teachers.
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Do you have a link for that, as that isn't necessary at all.
 
F

Fliesen

Member
To be fair, i'm much more mad about the fact that - along with this - they are also planning to ban women in certain jobs (teachers, as a prime example) from wearing a hijab / headscarf.

There's certain arguments to be made about the burqa.
The issue will be that women who were previously wearing a burqa in public, will go on to live as shut ins, not going outside anymore. It's not like they'll throw their burqa into the trash yelling "Finally, i'm free!".
Someone is still making them wear the burqa, be it their husband / family or their belief.

I disagree with any kind of clothing ban - out of principle - when it's targeting a religion and i feel these measures are counterproductive to integration, especially the (edit: proposed, incoming) hijab ban for teachers.

Rembrandt said:
Fucking stupid. I didn't know France banned it either, which is probably even stupider considering France is better than Austria.
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we just inaugurated a green party president over a right-winger. So let's just wait and see how you do on May 7th ;)
 
T

Tecnniqe

Banned
Wearing items that completely hide your identity like masks in public areas outside Halloween and such occasions are usually illegal. This is no different.
 
kruis

kruis

Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
Rembrandt said:
Fucking stupid. I didn't know France banned it either, which is probably even stupider considering France is better than Austria.
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Fucking stupid?? A burqua is the epitome of religious misogyny. I applaud the bans. Burquas should never be acceptable in any society.
 
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WhateverItTakes

Banned
T.O.P said:
Good, anything that covers your face almost completely should be banned
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Then ban that instead of a specific article of clothing. This targets a specific part of a single religion. I don't particularly like the Burqa, but there's a lot of stuff I don't like in religions, but it doesn't mean I should stop people from practicing what they want.
 
L

Liha

Banned
Rembrandt said:
Fucking stupid. I didn't know France banned it either, which is probably even stupider considering France is better than Austria.
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It's not about being better or worse, but doing the right thing. The burqa is a symbol of the political Islam and therefore has no place in our society.

John Kowalski said:
The article suggest that other symbols have been banned too, what are they?
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Wearing a Hijab for prosecutors and teachers.
 
F

Fliesen

Member
Audioboxer said:
Do you have a link for that, as that isn't necessary at all.
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the ban of the headscarf for civil workers is being drafted, afaik, has not been implemented yet. But it's part of the package

i'd have plenty of reputable Austrian / German resources, no idea what consitutes a good english speaking source about Austrian politics.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...n-burka-far-right-freedom-party-a7554151.html

The deal included a ban on Muslim veils such as the burka and niqab, which cover all or most of the face, and said a more general ban on civil servants wearing religious symbols was in the works.
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...dscarf-not-christian-crucifixes-a7513316.html
 
L

LookAtMeGo

Member
Im all about freedom of religious practices but when it deals with treating women as inferior then I'm not so keen on it. I'll admit I am not even too familiar with why the burqa is even a thing so I am mixed on the matter. I dont know if outright banning something like this makes things better or worse. I feel like there has to be less aggressive ways of dealing with this.
 
Moff

Moff

Member
The burqa is a disgraceful tool to opress women I want to see it gone, but I don't think a ban will help these women and I also don't think helping women was the goal of this ban.
 
F

Freeza Under The Shower

Member
The real question is whether a ban adversely affects political views, particular when it's really just symbol-politic, but the effects of incidents are real.

I doubt anyone has bothered to actually research that in France and Belgium, both countries that were attacked by radicalized extremists. Because you know, why bother basing your symbols on how they affect people. Silly scientists, pfff.
 
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Member
E

ElBoxyBrown

Banned
Audioboxer said:
A disgrace to women. I would however, be interested to know how much effort was first put into trying to re-educate and integrate. As a liberal thinker, I often think discussion and education are best to try first, before things such as bans.



Do you have a link for that, as that isn't necessary at all.
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If a women voluntarily of her free will wants to wear a burqa it shouldn't be a man's opinion to tell her "no". In the meantime we can try to improve this situation through education but we always must tread lightly on topics like this.
 
R

Rembrandt

Banned
ElBoxyBrown said:
If a women voluntarily of her free will wants to wear a burqa it shouldn't be a man's opinion to tell her "no". In the meantime we can try to improve this situation through education but we always must tread lightly on topics like this.
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This is my stance.

But I will say that it's a very tricky and weird subject. I don't know how to appropriately approach, but nonetheless, I feel like an outright weird is wrong and weird for progression/humanitarian reasons.
 
T

T.O.P

Banned
WhateverItTakes said:
Then ban that instead of a specific article of clothing. This targets a specific part of a single religion. I don't particularly like the Burqa, but there's a lot of stuff I don't like in religions, but it doesn't mean I should stop people from practicing what they want.
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Absolutely, but other than the Burqa and Niqab i can't think of other pieces of religious clothing that cover up your face almost completely

Correct me if i'm wrong, i'm not too invested in religions as a whole
 
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Member
ElBoxyBrown said:
If a women voluntarily of her free will wants to wear a burqa it shouldn't be a man's opinion to tell her "no". In the meantime we can try to improve this situation through education but we always must tread lightly on topics like this.
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I don't deny it's complex, but I would test anyone on the notion that even 50% of these women choose to wear a burqa of "free will". It'll either be husbands/family forcing them, or oppression based within scripture. The burqa itself has also been used, or I should say forced violently on women by terrorist organisations. So on the one hand we read an article like this and celebrate for the women, but on the next hand we say "who are we to judge the burqa?" ~ http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...eing-freed-from-isis-manbij-sdf-a7173671.html

Isis forces women to wear the burqa, which covers the entire body apart from the eyes, as part of its interpretation of Sharia law.

The terrorist group has founded groups of ”morality police" who brutally enforce the dress code and other restrictions inflicted on women, who are forbidden from leaving the home without a male guardian.
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It's one of these hard calls you need to make when it comes to what you want your own society and country to represent.
 
Theonik

Theonik

Member
Engell said:
fyi this is a burqa

I'm fine with banning this
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Nazgûl? Honestly I don't know where I stand with this. I feel being an inclusive society also entails tolerance of aspects of an immigrant's culture.
At the same time some of these are definitely aimed at the expense of women which conflicts with western values of gender equality which cannot be tolerated.
(we should tolerate to the extent that it does not conflict with our legal framework)
 
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ClosingADoor

Member
Seems this is going to be the default in Europe and other countries, and I have no problems with that. Even Islamic countries like Morocco and Egypt, and other African countries are pushing back against the burqa and niqab.
 
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Spaced Harrier

Member
Funky Papa said:
Don't do that.

You don't need to support Trump to be against the burqa. This is an extremely complex topic that transcends political camps and usually gets muddled by comments like yours.
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Indeed.

There's basically no good position to take on this.

Anything along the lines of "only 150 women" "part of their culture/religion" "you'd have to be racist" "it's their choice" throws women under the bus. Something a significant portion of the "left" are always keen to do.

And bans and the like throw fundamental liberties under the bus.

#FuckingBus
 
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