ClosingADoor
Member
Countries like Morocco, Egypt and Chad have taken steps and proposals to reduce the burqa and I don't think the "tears of the sensitive right-win" had much to do with that.
Why not?
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Austria bans the burqa
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Skellig Gra
Member
You shouldn't be.
Is this thread about the face veil? Also late converts to a religion can be overtly devout for a variety of reasons.
I don't doubt that, being forced to wear something that covers you up completely is terrible and I'm glad those women were freed and able again to decide for themselves.
We're not talking about women in Syria and Iraq however. We're talking about women living in the west while wearing a face-veil. Plenty of those women, including later in life converts, have opposed a ban on their face-veil and I see no reason to force them to do something they don't want to do. Nobody should be forced to wear or not wear something they think is important.
The article in the OP talks about a full face-veil ban and also mentions bans in the Netherlands, which do include things like the niqab.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
This is a topic that will only be solved by future generations. There's not much we can do.
Skellig Gra
Member
Because you are further oppressing a marginalized group of women. You are bullying the already bullied.
ShironRedshift
Member
Not at all, as those aren't the same women. Those who choose to voluntarily wear it and those forced to wear it and who would be forced to stay indoors with it banned are two different groups, who wear it for different reasons. Nothing's invalidated.
TheWasTheJoke
Member
Obviously I'm shooting my principle in the foot here when I say mascots costumes could be fine or sports events or perhaps everywhere as long as its taken off for Id purposes
Honestly I won't lie this issue is extremely nuanced and should probably make a disclaimer that my views are not concrete
You keep countering with the face veil, which is clearly nut moving the goal posts as you really don't have a counter argument for the burqa.
psychowave
Member
There's also plenty of ex-muslim women who oppose the veil.
Are you basically saying these structures don't exist in Europe? Because they do.
Like, the literal patriarchy.
Not to forget the shooters of some club in Turkey wore Santa costumes.
ReplacementPelican
Member
That is clearly and almost positively nothing to do with what I was talking about, this thread and my comment are directed towards Austria and, largely, the West.
The 'tears of the sensitive right wing' is exactly what gets it banned here, they're the ones who don't like the Burqa and get upset when they see it. Thinly veiling
(see what I did there?)
Now, this doesn't apply to everyone in this thread or maybe even anyone. In fact, here's how you can tell if it applies to you or not: do you believe, usually, in women's rights such as equal pay, abortion rights, etc? Is your concern genuinely about women? Do you often not post or exhibit anti-Islamic thoughts?
If so, I'm not talking about you.
Dude, the full-face veil ban includes the niqab. I'm not moving any goalposts. Here's another article on the subject with a niqab in the heading that mentions it is included in the ban.
Why not ban hijabs too? If you want to talk equality, sexism and misogyny, there's an argument to make about those too. Hell, lets take it the whole way and ban religion too.
It's not as black as white as "these women are oppressed", "this is misogyny" or my all-time favorite: "they're brainwashed!!1" I'm not denying that these things don't exist in Islam, but there are plenty of women that wear them by choice. It's a complicated subject and I doubt this ban was based on any noble intentions.
And please don't give me that silly excuse about hiding bombs. That's fucking stupid and borders on racial profiling. Should we all go naked instead?
It's not as black as white as "these women are oppressed", "this is misogyny" or my all-time favorite: "they're brainwashed!!1" I'm not denying that these things don't exist in Islam, but there are plenty of women that wear them by choice. It's a complicated subject and I doubt this ban was based on any noble intentions.
And please don't give me that silly excuse about hiding bombs. That's fucking stupid and borders on racial profiling. Should we all go naked instead?
John Kowalski
Banned
I wouldn't trust this ban to have come from a place of well meaning feminist concerns to be honest, but pretending that would be the case, banning all full body clothing items would defeat that purpose. The burka is a particular symbol of patriarchal privilege discriminating against women, not all full body clothing, and the banning should reflect that.
France didn't just ban the burqa but the headscarf as well. Burqa I can understand but the headscarf?
FUCKING IDIOTIC
It just appears that the West is saying more and more, day by day to us Muslims- we just dont fucking want you here. Sigh....time to plan a permanent move to Dubai or somewhere methinks
Muslims are the new Jews
is a burqa not taken off for ID purposes?
and yeah, that's the whole issue. Either you create a general ban that ends up having loads of exceptions and room for interpretation (what consitutes a costume, what constitutes a mascot)
like what about these jokesters you see at every music festival
What if 'hardcore' muslims just drop the burqa and make the women wear lycra masks. Or balaklavas?
The only consistent angle would be "religious symbols", but that isn't really enforcable, because people love their crucifixes in the classrooms and around their necks. Let alone the fact that now you're also affecting the jewish community (yarmulke.)
There are ex-muslim women that think the headscarf is misogynist. Now, as an ex-muslim myself I also think the precepts on modesty in the islam are born from patriarchal misogyny but that doesn't mean that my opinion should in any way restrict the decisions of others.
Yet another thread of people acting like the burqa and niqab are just random clothes and not at all a manifestation of radical islam.
No ? It's banned for public workers and in schools just like any other religious sign. I see plenty of women with headscarves or turbans or whatever in the streets.
His Majesty
Banned
Completely agree. The burqa, niqab and what they symbolize have no place in our society.
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
gahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
psychowave
Member
So you think women submitting themselves to misogyny is okay as long as it's their "choice"?
Audioboxer
Member
It's one of the complex judgement calls a society can make. Not every decision you end up making in life comes exclusively with pros and ZERO negatives. Sometimes it's a game of weighing them all up, and doing our best as a society to judge what will be the most progressive choice.
I always ask people who air on the side of "women happily choose this" to go away and think about why pretty much ZERO men, 0, choose to wear anything remotely similar to the burqa. If it is truly a liberated choice, why hasn't man looked at something like the burqa and thought, this is indeed a great piece of clothing for me to wear and integrate in society.
I'd guess it's because most men know we are social animals (or beings if biology/evolution isn't your thing), and a lot of life and living comes from eye contact/facial cues/smiles/etc. A woman in something like the burqa is a woman who doesn't integrate with society as it is.
As on page one I already posted how it has ties to Isis ~ http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...eing-freed-from-isis-manbij-sdf-a7173671.html Symbolic ties can sometimes be how a society judges apparel. It's happened all throughout history.
Diprosalic
Banned
This is such a complicated issue. I really don't know where i stand on this. I only know that i don't want women being forced to wear it.
onken
Member
I consider myself liberal on every topic but this is the one point I cannot fall in line. Burkah and niqab will always be a symbol of oppression to me.
"""voluntarily"""
This.
"""voluntarily"""
This.
If you are saying that many of them are independant woman that would suffer no consequences from their community should they change, sure.
ShironRedshift
Member
I'm... really confused? Of course patriarchy exists. All I'm saying is that that doesn't dictate the case for every single women ever. That women can make decisions for reasons other than being affected by patriarchy. That isn't to downplay patriarchy in any way, and how it affects the lives of women, but at the same time it's not the answer to everything.
I'm... just really not sure how to answer that, since I'm not sure what exactly it is you're accusing me of here, so I apologize if I'm not making much sense. I'm just not sure how I can be clearer than the post of mine you quoted.
Many women are forced to wear it because of patriarchy and misogyny.
Others choose of their own will.
Thus, we have to be careful in our approach to this so that whatever answer we come up with fits both of those situations instead of just one or the other. That's all I'm saying. I by no means intended to deny patriarchy or misogyny exist or to downplay their influence anywhere in the world and tremendously apologize if that's in any way how my post came off.
Ah shit my bad.
Still pretty fucked imo! I remember a girl at school having to shave her head because of the ban. IIRC she still got expelled!
https://www.bustle.com/articles/124...f-terrorism-are-more-numerous-than-youd-think
Because it doesn't happened in the west it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen elsewhere
1st Course
Member
FYI the vast majority of Muslims don't believe burqa/niqap is mandatory.
It's pretty much a Salafi/Wahhabi thing.
It's pretty much a Salafi/Wahhabi thing.
I hope some of this is contested in courts, unless they pass this as a constitutional amendment, which would be kinda fucked up.
I see where both parties are coming from, but this kind of thing is just giving the FPÖ more legitimacy. You can't outdo the far right at being far right. At least I hope after the recent negotiations they actually get to start working and become productive. Not that I hold much hope.
I see where both parties are coming from, but this kind of thing is just giving the FPÖ more legitimacy. You can't outdo the far right at being far right. At least I hope after the recent negotiations they actually get to start working and become productive. Not that I hold much hope.
You can also ask about non-muslim women and men. Weirdly the burqa hasn't taken off in the western fashion world.
What ? I don't see what shaving anyone's head has to do with anything and you don't get expelled from public school just like that, it's an extremely uncommon process.
Yes. Women quitting their job because they want to chase some traditional christian ideal of being the perfect housewife is also okay with me. Orthodox Jewish women shaving their heads out of religious devotion is also okay with me. Just because I interpret something as being part of a racist or misogynist culture does not mean I then get to restrict people's decisions. As a black man I think black women straightening their hair is partly because of our white supremacist beauty ideals. That doesn't mean I now get to force afros on all of them. Instead I fight discriminating practices against black hair in the workplace.
I'm french and what the fuck am i reading
This "holier than thou" comments are always really interesting and bring so much to the conversation
psychowave
Member
I'm not saying we should restrict their decisions, as I mentioned earlier in the thread I don't think legally pursuing women who wear the veil is the right way to do things. But encouraging women to submit themselves to patriarchal customs isn't helping either. The veil needs to disappear through education, and not the law, but it needs to disappear nonetheless.
ClosingADoor
Member
By allowing these clear symbols of misogyny and sexism we would also allow further oppression.
So we can not implement any regulation, just because the right wing supports it?
Audioboxer
Member
Nothing resembling it has. Keep in mind most critics are exclusively attacking what it does to a woman's face. Not so much it being baggy or covering legs/arms.
Trying to live a fruitful social life as a human being looking like this must be challenging
Hence why I personally don't think we see any men like the above.
Bingo
GuessMyUserName
Member
It's fine to view the burkah or niqab or whatever have you as a symbol of oppression. Many Muslim women will have their own views against it just the same.
That doesn't make banning a reasonable response. It does nothing but harm the lives of already oppressed women. If they can't go out in their veil then what, you think they'll families that force it on them will just say "well okay off it goes"? No, it just keeps the women indoors and culturally insulated among themselves.
If you wanna fight the burqa, these women need to be promoted into society, not removed from it.
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