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[Ashamam]

It’s what you’ve trained yourself to see after playing 60fps games. You could see 30fps as smooth if you never had played 60fps. Just like I’m sure people used to 120fps can see the difference with 60. We spent decades playing games at 30 and very free people actually gave a fuck tho

No its not. I had been playing 30 fps games on the PS4 Pro, I briefly had my new Oled prior to the PS5. It was instantly noticable when I fired up the same game on the Oled that I had just been playing at 30fps on my prior LED TV. It was absolutely a wtf moment. I remember thinking shit, am I going to be able to use this new TV to game on?

Then I got the PS5 and everything was 60fps so I was 'saved'. Then I got my Series X a few years ago and the announcements started rolling about 30 fps and now I figure I wasted money on the X lol. (keep in mind I bought it for exclusives, so I put more weight on Xbox first party releases and also GP releases)

 

[Balducci30]

No its not. I had been playing 30 fps games on the PS4 Pro, I briefly had my new Oled prior to the PS5. It was instantly noticable when I fired up the same game on the Oled that I had just been playing at 30fps on my prior LED TV. It was absolutely a wtf moment. I remember thinking shit, am I going to be able to use this new TV to game on?

Then I got the PS5 and everything was 60fps so I was 'saved'. Then I got my Series X a few years ago and the announcements started rolling about 30 fps and now I figure I wasted money on the X lol.

Strange. 30fps looks completely fine on Oled for me unless I play 60fps games consistently, which I was doing for quite some time, and when I would jump back to 30 it was very noticeable. However after I got acclimated back into quality modes and playing majority 30 fps again, it seems completely smooth. So it’s not like I don’t have the capability of seeing the difference in the framerate, the problem just goes away if I stop playing games at 60 consistently.

 

[Bungie]

This bothered me when they said Starfield was locked at 30, but after actually playing SF at a locked 30fps, you can adjust to it fairly quickly imo.

Also using Samsungs latest Oled monitor.
The option to have both is always nice but I'm sure it'll come down the road.

 

[Ashamam]

So it’s not like I don’t have the capability of seeing the difference in the framerate, the problem just goes away if I stop playing games at 60 consistently.

I imagine its a spectrum, not a switch. I'm just further along the spectrum than you. Its not like I never acclimatize, I do, but it never feels smooth, just loses the jarring aspect. Like getting used to a burn or something. You learn to tolerate it but its never comfortable if that makes any sense.

 

[Radical_3d]

Oh, Microsoft. Again? You just don’t learn, do you?

 

[SenkiDala]

If the game looked stunning I could understand that... but it looks mid at best. With those graphics, it should easily be hitting 60fps.

I am humble enough to admit that I am not a game dev, I dunno how it works exactly even if I have some basic knowledge.

What can we say ? Is the XSX not powerful enough ? We know that's not the case. Is the game the most graphically awesome ever ? Sure not, far from it. So what happens ? Are Obsidian not great at making awesome graphics ? That might be the problem...

That said, are Obsidian a dev team known to make bad games ? Sure not, far from it. The first "hands on" on the game are really positive about it so I wanna be optimistic.

Would I prefer 60 fps ? Sure yes. But for exemple in Starfield it didn't bother me, those 30fps were very stable and I prefer this than for exemple the pathetic state of FFVII Rebirth. In performance mod I feel my screen is covered of butter, and in graphical mode the frame rate is really shit, not stable... I sold my PS5 partially for this, thinking "ok I'll wait the PS5 Pro for this one" (remind me of the state of FFXV too on last gen... And FFXVI too might benefit A LOT of the pro).

Let's say "what kind" of 30fps there is, when it is well made you almost forget about it after 30 minutes. It won't break my hype for the game.

 

[dEvAnGeL]

I don’t get it. Why are Xbox teams struggling to ship games with 60 fps modes lately? Aside from racing games of course. Even third party games are doing that on the platform. Is it a budget problem? Redfall, Starfield and now this.

 

[BigLee74]

everyone made fun of starfield at launch......................

but it got a 60fps patch for consoles as well , im not worried at all

Be worried, because Starfield 60fps is nowhere near 60fps most of the time.

30fps is shite. Full stop. It should never be the only option in this day and age.

 

[Saiyan-Rox]

"It’s a first-person, single-player game, you don’t necessarily need that 60 frames."​

Think id respect a company more for being honest.

"So yeah game runs like shit on this hardware when targeting 60 so gotta lock it to 30... sorry"

 

[HL3.exe]

30fps
low latency

Pick one.

Both can be possible possible. It depends on the implantation. If they choose 1/2 sync that will create huge input latency for smooth frame-pacing. But, going for an internal frame lock but prioritize frame-pacing in the job chain with will have similar results, but with spot-on input latency (MGSV worked the same way)

 

[SlimySnake]

How was it not optimization when optimization is what allowed them to implement higher frame rates? And performance mode doesn't have to be 60fps. Even 40fps will give a noticeably smoother gameplay. But honestly, I still don't know what was so CPU intensive about Starfield. Perhaps all those generated NPCs wandering around like zombies in the cities. But once again....that's a setting. Starfield on PC has the ability to reduce crowd size and it helped in my gameplay. Considering how horrible they all looked....that was a blessing. Fact of the matter is that Starfield should have been delayed. It just wasn't ready at launch.

if i recall correctly, hardware unboxed did a video on the crowd size affecting the cpu and the difference between highest and lowest was just 3%. maybe a bit higher. their cpu usage is high for god knows what reason but the CPUs were always working overtime on every pc. it just really hated zen 2 cpus. my point is that action adventure games and rpgs from bethesda and obsidian are just completely different, and none of us know why there might be a cpu bottleneck in those games.

the optimizations did indeed improve the zen 2 cpu performance by 15-20% which ultimately allowed them to port over those changes to the xsx version. however, the cities still run in the 30s and 40s on the xsx so they are still CPU bound in those areas but they decided to take the hit there and target 60 fps elsewhere in the game. not to mention it took nearly 9 months to get that update rolled out on the series x. If they had released the game like that and the performance mode ran in the 30s and 40s in the city, there wouldve been a lot more bad press.

 

[Topher]

if i recall correctly, hardware unboxed did a video on the crowd size affecting the cpu and the difference between highest and lowest was just 3%. maybe a bit higher. their cpu usage is high for god knows what reason but the CPUs were always working overtime on every pc. it just really hated zen 2 cpus. my point is that action adventure games and rpgs from bethesda and obsidian are just completely different, and none of us know why there might be a cpu bottleneck in those games.

the optimizations did indeed improve the zen 2 cpu performance by 15-20% which ultimately allowed them to port over those changes to the xsx version. however, the cities still run in the 30s and 40s on the xsx so they are still CPU bound in those areas but they decided to take the hit there and target 60 fps elsewhere in the game. not to mention it took nearly 9 months to get that update rolled out on the series x. If they had released the game like that and the performance mode ran in the 30s and 40s in the city, there wouldve been a lot more bad press.

Ok. I'm not going to fact check you bro because I'll really don't want to go down that rabbit hole. I'll just end this with my initial point. Having a choice is best.

 

[SlimySnake]

It’s what you’ve trained yourself to see after playing 60fps games. You could see 30fps as smooth if you never had played 60fps. Just like I’m sure people used to 120fps can see the difference with 60. We spent decades playing games at 30 and very few people actually gave a fuck tho

I actually just went from playing Evil West at 120 fps for a good 6 hours straight into wukong playing at 60 fps for the first half and hour to an hour. Then switched to 30 fps and it is honestly, not as jarring which is weird because switching between miles' 30 and 60 fps modes was extremely jarring and it took me 10-15 minutes to adjust and i never dared to switch back for ratchet and spiderman 2 starting both games at 30 fps even though i had been gaming on PC at extremely high framerates during the same time.

I am not super human. I see the same jitters especially during camera pans. I couldnt stand the demon souls 30 fps mode. FF7 rebirth gives me headaches. But some games just get it right and dont have those jitters and stutters. I tried black myth path tracing at 30 fps and while it was locked, my frametime graph was all over the place and it was atrocious. i lasted less than 5 minutes before turning off PT altogether.

This is an interesting comment and goes to perception and how peoples brains process visual data.

You are not wrong in your own frame of reference but you are completely wrong in many other peoples.

It is no exaggeration for me to say NO 30fps image on an Oled is smooth as butter in motion, especially panning across the wider horizontal axis. It is ALWAYS jarring as f*ck and takes a few minutes for the experience to smooth out in my head a bit. But even then its never smooth, just familiar.

Its just as noticeable if for some reason I watch a TV show accidentally in Game mode. The instant the shot pans I'm reaching for the remote with the rest of the family laughing at me. My wife just shakes her head as she doesn't see it, but the kids do (but it doesn't bother them as much). So its all about the individual.

Funny you mention watching tv in game mode. I force my friends to turn off motion flow on their tvs every time i go to watch game of thrones or a movie. I notice those same things you do. some games are just terrible on OLED. horizon fw was initially and i didnt get used to it like i did with other games. It wasnt until after i fixed some settings to get rid of that jitteriness when i could finally stomach playing it. you can see me complain profusely in the horizon fw OT. I am not one of the lucky ones. trust me.

 

[GametimeUK]

I like X-box and will actively defend Microsoft, but...

L O L

 

[rapid32.5]

Ninja Gaiden ran 60 on the Xbox and was the best looking game on the platform. Nowdays, Xbox studios perceived as weak studios that always have excuses.

 

[Balducci30]

I actually just went from playing Evil West at 120 fps for a good 6 hours straight into wukong playing at 60 fps for the first half and hour to an hour. Then switched to 30 fps and it is honestly, not as jarring which is weird because switching between miles' 30 and 60 fps modes was extremely jarring and it took me 10-15 minutes to adjust and i never dared to switch back for ratchet and spiderman 2 starting both games at 30 fps even though i had been gaming on PC at extremely high framerates during the same time.

I am not super human. I see the same jitters especially during camera pans. I couldnt stand the demon souls 30 fps mode. FF7 rebirth gives me headaches. But some games just get it right and dont have those jitters and stutters. I tried black myth path tracing at 30 fps and while it was locked, my frametime graph was all over the place and it was atrocious. i lasted less than 5 minutes before turning off PT altogether.


Funny you mention watching tv in game mode. I force my friends to turn off motion flow on their tvs every time i go to watch game of thrones or a movie. I notice those same things you do. some games are just terrible on OLED. horizon fw was initially and i didnt get used to it like i did with other games. It wasnt until after i fixed some settings to get rid of that jitteriness when i could finally stomach playing it. you can see me complain profusely in the horizon fw OT. I am not one of the lucky ones. trust me.

Demon souls I agree something was wrong with the 30 fps mode on that. I don’t know if it’s lack of motion blur or what - I’m not sure if it was from playing it in 60 and switching or if it just genuinely had a terrible 30 fps mode. Ratchet and spider man was an adjustment between the 2 modes but I quickly got used to it

 

[SlimySnake]

I don’t get it. Why are Xbox teams struggling to ship games with 60 fps modes lately? Aside from racing games of course. Even third party games are doing that on the platform. Is it a budget problem? Redfall, Starfield and now this.

well, bethesda, arkhane and obsidian are not known as tech powerhouses. none of their games looked especially good in past gens and always had performance issues.

another reason is the tech, while arkhane made a very ugly game in redfall, they still had to work around the cpu requirements to handle coop. the same issues that plagued gotham knights on consoles. starfield and avowed are using realtime GI *(lumen) which is very expensive on the gpu as well as very high quality assets. these things come at a cost even on pc.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

not the end of the world for slow paced RPGs at 30 fps. I played my share of Skyrim/ME/Fallout at those fps way back.

But 60 fps makes such a giant difference. Replay an old game boosted to 60 fps and it's like a totally different game.

 

[twilo99]

Courtesy of Zen2 mobile ...

 

[digoutyoursoul]

Ninja Gaiden ran 60 on the Xbox and was the best looking game on the platform. Nowdays, Xbox studios perceived as weak studios that always have excuses.

I think Playground Games with the Forza Horizon series can hold their heads up. The rest I’m not sure.

 

[PendekarRajawali]

I just can’t believe that we’re in the 9th generation but 60fps is not default on consoles.

 

[Pimpbaa]

The Outer Worlds on last gen consoles was abysma. It looked like shit and the loading was horrendous (think of the amount of load screens Starfield has but much much longer). Don’t expect much technical wizardry with this game. Don’t blame the hardware, blame the devs. Most games I’ve played this gen had 60fps modes. It’s like one game releases at 30fps only and suddenly all the games with 60fps are forgotten. I’m fuckin playing cod mw3 near at 120fps in a lot of maps (in multiplayer). Sure the resolution is only 1080p, but still. I was playing God of War Ragnarok In the 80 to 90fps range if i remember correctly. Insomniac maybe be a lost cause creative wise, but technically their games have been great in regards to framerate options. Offering unlocked framerate in both 40fps and 60fps modes.

 

[Radical_3d]

Finally found it.

 

[SlimySnake]

LoL calling 30 fps smooth as butter...thats some next level cope for better graphics at all costs... but nice trying

Here is the 30 fps footage i promised complete with the frametime graph.

This is the area that taxes my gpu the hardest with all the foliage and you only see the frametime budge once when the gpu hits 99%. There are no issues with camera pans as i do several 360 turns towards the end.

 

[Topher]

if i recall correctly, hardware unboxed did a video on the crowd size affecting the cpu and the difference between highest and lowest was just 3%. maybe a bit higher. their cpu usage is high for god knows what reason but the CPUs were always working overtime on every pc. it just really hated zen 2 cpus. my point is that action adventure games and rpgs from bethesda and obsidian are just completely different, and none of us know why there might be a cpu bottleneck in those games.

FYI.....I was curious so I did watch that hardware unboxed video. You are correct. Crowd density has little impact. So yeah....why this game is CPU bound....no idea.

Having said that, it should also be pointed out that in that video, Hardware Unboxed said they were able to improve performance by changing settings without taking a massive hit on visuals.

"t's feasible to enhance Starfield's PC performance with minimal sacrifices to visual quality, achieving a more harmonious experience than the presets Bethesda provides in-game. On our RTX 3070 system, Ultra settings without upscaling at 1440p proved subpar as we recorded only about 30 to 45 FPS in the most resource-intensive zones. With minor adjustments, a 20% framerate enhancement is attainable without resorting to resolution scaling adjustments."

Starfield Optimization Guide

We're going through every setting in Starfield and tell you which settings are worth turning to Ultra, and which should be turned down to improve performance. That's...

www.techspot.com

Of course, these are GPU bound optimizations so would not necessarily translate to the weaker CPU in consoles.

 

[Zuzu]

That’s not good to hear, especially for OLED users. Starfield on the Series X at 30fps was unpleasant on my OLED. The 40fps mode was a lot better. I hope they’ll put in a 40fps mode at least.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Ninja Gaiden ran 60 on the Xbox and was the best looking game on the platform. Nowdays, Xbox studios perceived as weak studios that always have excuses.

But that's being silly and trolling. Lots of PS2 action games run at 60 FPS until we got to open-world games like GTA, Getaway Shadow of the Colossus which barley ran past 20 fps and it always helped up as classic.

 

[FireFly]

FYI.....I was curious so I did watch that hardware unboxed video. You are correct. Crowd density has little impact. So yeah....why this game is CPU bound....no idea.

They use a dynamic GI system and I imagine the acceleration structure they are tracing into gets built on the CPU.

 

[buenoblue]

Other 30fos first party game. Microsoft are dumb

 

[Duchess]

I'm sure the game will be patched at a later date with a 60fps mode, at least on Series X.

Feelings are being made loud and clear, so MS will work to do it. Plenty of games have received 60fps updates several months down the line. Stuff like A Plague Tale, and Pacific Drive got patches.

You just need to wait a bit.

 

[ShaiKhulud1989]

arkhane

Made one of the prettiest games ever. It's more about idTech being a bit troubled engine outside of very basic enviroments of DOOM.

In case of Awoved it seems to me it's just a matter of bad tech art calls and Obsidian's overall ineperience with fully 3D-rendered games. Outer Worlds ain't exactly a looker for an RPG of it's size and system reqs.

 

[Physiognomonics]

But that's being silly and trolling. Lots of PS2 action games run at 60 FPS until we got to open-world games like GTA, Getaway Shadow of the Colossus which barley ran past 20 fps and it always helped up as classic.

Yes but those games were being played on CRT monitors. Big difference! I mean 20fps on CRT is almost as good as 60fps on a LED to me!

 

[Mister Wolf]

Made one of the prettiest games ever. It's more about idTech being a bit troubled engine outside of very basic enviroments of DOOM.

In case of Awoved it seems to me it's just a matter of bad tech art calls and Obsidian's overall ineperience with fully 3D-rendered games. Outer Worlds ain't exactly a looker for an RPG of it's size and system reqs.

Avowed looks fine:

 

[StereoVsn]

Put yourself in their shoes. You spend 5 years creating assets from scratch, you carefully light up each area to look as best as possible placing shadows and light sources to make it look as best as it can look. And then you have some exec come in, tell you to take out half of the shadows, downgrade the asset fidelity, halve the resolution, remove all volumetric effects, remove all rt effects, all because of some backlash from the same audience that handed GOTY awards left and right to 30 fps games just 3 years ago.

I dont think that players should be offered any options. Consoles are not PC. And i dont think we are entitled to 60 fps. The devs are making the game and its their game, their vision, and they get to decide if they want to prioritize fidelity or performance. I dont buy games that prioritize performance because Fuck devs who want to continue making last gen games in 2024. If you guys feel so strongly about it, its your prerogative to not buy these games. Or buy them on PC.

I would never go to Rockstar and ask them to downgrade their vision for GTA6 just because i want to play at 60 fps on a 10 tflops console when i could go out there today and buy a 30 tflops GPU for less than $700 and triple the framerate. Just because avowed doesnt look as good as Rockstar or Naughty Dog's games, doesnt mean i get to demand 60 fps from them. Their artists did the best they could with that engine and their artwork needs to be experienced the way they intended for it.

p.S i turned off the 30 fps mode in callisto on PS5 and my heart sank. it looked like a completely different game. they removed all three RT effects, turned down volumetric effects, reduced environment quality and halved the resolution. No wonder no one thought the game looked great. people played the shit version.

I am putting myself in their shoes and basically know that I am going to get fucking killed on comments for not even offering 60fps option.

So I would go to my MS bosses and tell them that we are likely to sell less of our product because of that. And let them make that decision.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Avowed looks fine:

The textures in Avowed are too "soft". There is a lack of proper ambient occlusion that just feels odd.

For lower-quality and "soft" textures, in image #1, look at the rock textures on the right side. And on image #2, the roof and the branches of the tree.

In image #2, look at the drapes. There is no proper ambient occlusion, which makes the drapes feel like they are not part of the scene at all.

The combination of all such things makes the game look extremely outdated.

The only saving grace is the lightning, which is totally fine. So any super bright lit areas look fine, as these shortcomings are hidden. But as soon as the very bright light goes away, all these issues pop up again.

 

[StereoVsn]

Yes but those games were being played on CRT monitors. Big difference! I mean 20fps on CRT is almost as good as 60fps on a LED to me!

Let’s not get crazy. Those under 30 frames still sucked on CRT.

That said, 30 fps is terrible on OLEDs and 30 fps on action rpg is even more terrible on top of that. Which is why a choice should be there to let their customers choose between graphics and performance.

 

[ShaiKhulud1989]

Avowed looks fine:

I'm an ass so I'm throwing some slightly (!) modded Skyrim SE for some context lol (it's my own build I'm currently rocking). The overall art in Awoved is simply unappealing and flat despite the GI and UE5 features. It's just boring, generic and the colour scheme is a mess.

 

[Skifi28]

The overall art in Awoved is simply unappealing and flat despite the GI and UE5 features. It's just boring, generic and the colour scheme is a mess.

Indeed. RT on its own means nothing if the art and assets can't back it up. Your screenshots are infinitely more appealing, they make me want to go back to Skyrim. The Avowed screens make me want to go back to sleep.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

Sony money-hatting 60fps is ridiculous.

 

[Heisenberg007]

I'm an ass so I'm throwing some slightly (!) modded Skyrim SE for some context lol (it's my own build I'm currently rocking). The overall art in Awoved is simply unappealing and flat despite the GI and UE5 features. It's just boring, generic and the colour scheme is a mess.

I saw your images and thought, "now, these images from Avowed do look relatively better," only to later read that it is from your modded Skyrim.

It speaks volumes that a modded 2011 Gen-7 Skyrim is looking better than a 2025 current-gen-exclusive Avowed.

 

[ShaiKhulud1989]

I saw your images and thought, "now, these images from Avowed do look relatively better," only to later read that it is from your modded Skyrim.

It speaks volumes that a modded 2011 Gen-7 Skyrim is looking better than a 2025 current-gen-exclusive Avowed.

Thnigh is, it's just like 10 mods, nothing crazy or art-breaking. The base game was crafted with visual care and discipline, so that's enough for decades.

 

[solidus12]

Time to unearth this gem for this special occasion:

 

[Nydius]

"It’s a first-person, single-player game, you don’t necessarily need that 60 frames."​

It’s the Starfield nonsense all over again. This is just the same kind of BS as “30fps is a creative decision”. I’d almost be willing to bet that, just like Starfield, a few months after launch they will magically find the resources or ability to add a 60fps mode toggle.

 

[Xtib81]

Damn, there really is zero reason to own an Xbox console at this point, just build a PC.

 

[DrumNBassDanTTV]

People still play on consoles? wtf

 

[Team Andromeda]

Yes but those games were being played on CRT monitors. Big difference! I mean 20fps on CRT is almost as good as 60fps on a LED to me!

Yeah, I mean Daytona USA on the Saturn looked like it was running at 60 FPS.

Let's look at Capcom most of their RE games runs at 60 fps not the case for Dragons Dogma 2 I wonder why....

 

[Mister Wolf]

Damn, there really is zero reason to own an Xbox console at this point, just build a PC.

Which is why Microsoft will be selling compact PCs with an Xbox branding next generation.

 

[Shwing]

So I assume it's 30fps locked on PC as well then? No? Oh, but you're saying you don't necessarily need 60fps, so why offer more on PC
I think you might be talking sh*te.

 

[Heisenberg007]

"It’s a first-person, single-player game, you don’t necessarily need that 60 frames."​

It’s the Starfield nonsense all over again. This is just the same kind of BS as “30fps is a creative decision”. I’d almost be willing to bet that, just like Starfield, a few months after launch they will magically find the resources or ability to add a 60fps mode toggle.

What's worse is that Obsidian has confirmed that Avowed will have a 3rd person mode. So it is not even just a "1st person game."

 

[SlimySnake]

Which is why Microsoft will be selling compact PCs with an Xbox branding next generation.

It could be a good idea. I’m kinda over PC gaming so if ms can release a powerful $1000 box i will go with that.