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[btrboyev]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm.../20040919/ap_on_re_us/schwarzenegger_vetoes_3

SACRAMENTO - Siding with his business allies, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger (news - web sites) vetoed bills Saturday that would have raised the minimum wage to $7.75 an hour and required economic impact reports before local governments approve Wal-Mart-like mega-stores.

The Republican governor also turned down legislation that would have limited drug testing of students and set a goal of holding university fee increases to no more than 8 percent a year.

He contended the minimum wage and superstore legislation would have hurt the state's economy and said drug testing policies should be left up to school officials.

"I cannot support legislation that eliminates the ability of local school districts to make decisions based on the needs and values of their community," he said in a veto message.

The bill, by Sen. John Vasconcellos, D-Santa Clara, would have allowed random drug testing of students only if the program was voluntary on the part of students and parents and not funded by state or local taxes.

The measure also would have barred requiring students to agree to random testing to participate in extracurricular activities.

It would have allowed nonrandom testing only if school officials had reasonable suspicion that a particular student was using alcohol or illegal drugs.

The bill's supporters called random testing a costly program that creates distrust among students, parents and school officials and distracts from the "core educational mission of the public schools."

The minimum wage bill, by Assemblywoman Sally Lieber, D-Santa Clara, would have raised California's minimum wage from $6.75 to $7.25 next Jan. 1 and to $7.75 on Jan. 1, 2006.

Bill supporters said the minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation, adding to a "dramatically rising level of poverty" and greater reliance on taxpayer-funded social programs.

Schwarzenegger said Lieber's bill would have made California's minimum wage the highest in the nation. Washington and Oregon currently have higher minimum wages that increase with inflation and conceivably could have remained higher than California's.

Schwarzenegger also said the bill would have discouraged economic growth.

"Now is not the time to create barriers to our economic recovery or reverse the momentum we have generated," he said. "I want to create more jobs and make every California job more secure."

 

[PotatoeMasher]

Any person with simple economics knowledge sides with Arnold...

 

[btrboyev]

sure they do..but we all know economists are douchebags..whats your point?

 

[PotatoeMasher]

sure they do..but we all know economists are douchebags..whats your point?

oh, nothing

 

[videogamer]

Any person with simple economics knowledge sides with Arnold...

yeah, looking at a libertarian perspective, it might actually create a heck of lot more jobs if there were no minimum wage. One thing that might hold that vision off would be that a lot of lazy people wouldn't work for low wages and thus wouldn't help increase employment.

 

[videogamer]

oh, nothing

Do you play warcraft?

 

[Saturnman]

What's the average minimum wage is neighbouring states? If California's is significantrly lower then Arnold's argument is very moot.

 

[PotatoeMasher]

Of my decayed Libertarian remains, the economic perspective is still what I generally believe...

Do you play warcraft?

nope

 

[videogamer]

What's the average minimum wage is neighbouring states? If California's is significantrly lower than Arnold's argument is very moot.

Well, our living costs as a whole are different from other states. It's kind of interesting to say that people in Los Angeles should be paid the same as people in Bakersfield even though the cost of housing, taxes, etc are different.

Potatoe: Bah you've betrayed libertarianism! Though I've kind of left the economic perspective myself and kept the social one.

 

[sc0la]

Super-Conservative Sez: Giving people extra money in their pockets (with tax cuts) stimulates the economy.

Super-Conservative Sez: Giving people extra money in their pockets (with minimum wage increase) hurts the economy.

Spoiler

this is not an actual argument

 

[PotatoeMasher]

What's the average minimum wage is neighbouring states? If California's is significantrly lower then Arnold's argument is very moot.

Arizona has no minimum wage law
Oregon's is $7.05
Nevada is Fed. $5.15

 

[PotatoeMasher]

Super-Conservative Sez: Giving people extra money in their pockets (with tax cuts) stimulates the economy.

Super-Conservative Sez: Giving people extra money in their pockets (with minimum wage increase) hurts the economy.

Spoiler

this is not an actual argument

but still, this is simple--

the taxpayer had his/her money taken away from them after they earned it... it's actually a correction, whereas raising minimum wage is a binding type of horrible shitty mistake...
..

 

[Saturnman]

Arizona has no minimum wage law
Nevada is Fed. $5.15

How do poor working people manage to make ends meet in those states?

 

[videogamer]

How do poor working people manage to make ends meet in those states?

The housing is less expensive, the taxes are generally lower, etc

 

[Triumph]

but still, this is simple--

the taxpayer had his/her money taken away from them after they earned it... it's actually a correction, whereas raising minimum wage is a binding type of horrible shitty mistake...
..

A binding type of horrible shitty mistake that would correct where minimum wage is at relative to inflation. Yeah, in 1960 terms, the minimum wage today would be about $10. But it's ok not to pay uneducated colored people shitty wages, right? Fuck 'em. Most of 'em aren't gonna vote, and it's not like you have to deal with them other than sign their shitty checks, right?

Stupid, stupid rich white people never cease to amaze me. Do yourself a favor and research the French Revolution. That will give you heartless, soulless pigfuckers just an inkling of where you're gonna be when the worm turns and the Revolution comes.

Viva le Revolucion!

 

[Alcibiades]

problem with a $10 minimum wage is if people doing a crappy job that's what you'd pay them anyway.

I'd rather pay a minimally-trying employee $5 and a awesome employee $10 than pay them both a madated $7.50.

In Texas, the mininum wage is $5.15, and I some people I know work for those wages simple jobs (my friends were alarm dispatchers at that wage and I'd go to their work and play Nintendo, watch movies, etc... They'd always call me from their work to talk and it was a very lenient, easy, if a bit boring, job. in fact only when the computer showed a "item" or the phone rang did they have to actually do something). If they wanted higher pay, there were other employers to consider, but of course the work is going to be more demanding (local grocery vs. Best Buy for example).

Maybe on the grand scale of things a higher minimum wage is more fair if you're thinking humanitarian reasons, but on a simple, practical perspective, I think this probably isn't the time considering the deficit crisis in California isn't going to be helped by giving employers a motivation to lay people off.

 

[sc0la]

Tax cuts are correction if you assume they are inherently a mistake to begin with.

Minimum wage is insufficient to make a reasonable living in some places (I know this because I make it, I get by every month because I don't pay a rent). And someone has to work those bottom end jobs. so someone gets fucked. minimum wage increses wouldn't have to mean slimming margins if adjustments were made to other areas of business, like say high level compensation. When you let the market decide everything, you are actually letting the people on top decide everything, a free market is only as free as the fallable human beings that control it (make no mistake they do control it).

What if top level pay was based on multipliers of low level pay? it would be an impossible sell in today's world but it might make just a little sense.

Or there is the "living wage" movement, but that needs to fix itself a bit before it becomes more viable in my opinion.

 

[Ecrofirt]

http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm - has the minimum wage for every state

Pennsylvania's minimum wage is $5.15 an hour. Thank god some places start at $6.

Not like it matters for me though, because not a fucking place will hire me, even though their damn workers say that they're understaffed.

 

[Stele]

Join a job finding agency like Adecco. It helps a lot. CT wage is BS on that site, btw. I think McDonald's starts at $6.80 here.

 

[videogamer]

Maybe on the grand scale of things a higher minimum wage is more fair if you're thinking humanitarian reasons, but on a simple, practical perspective, I think this probably isn't the time considering the deficit crisis in California isn't going to be helped by giving employers a motivation to lay people off.

Heh while they got rid of the car tax, they proposed increasing professional school tuition by 40%, making it nearly as expensive as private schools.

Although I understand the point of having no minimum wage, a trip on a cruise really disturbed me. Many of the pworkers were not paid at all, they were only given room and board. They totally depended on tips for any money that they could save up or send home. Really, the waitress for my family's table had 3 kids in Romania and she said that she would occasionally cry because she missed them so badly.

Of course, none of this matters because my dad has me on paper as an employee even though I do no work for him.

 

[etiolate]

SACRAMENTO - Siding with his business allies, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger (news - web sites) vetoed bills Saturday that would have raised the minimum wage to $7.75 an hour and required economic impact reports before local governments approve Wal-Mart-like mega-stores.

Even though I work low waged jobs and a minumum wage increase would bump my salary, I am not too into it as it has been raised a lot in recent years here. What I am for is the idea of economic impact reports for places like Wal-Mart and other mega-stores.

 

[Alcibiades]

Heh while they got rid of the car tax, they proposed increasing professional school tuition by 40%, making it nearly as expensive as private schools.

Although I understand the point of having no minimum wage, a trip on a cruise really disturbed me. Many of the pworkers were not paid at all, they were only given room and board. They totally depended on tips for any money that they could save up or send home. Really, the waitress for my family's table had 3 kids in Romania and she said that she would occasionally cry because she missed them so badly.

Of course, none of this matters because my dad has me on paper as an employee even though I do no work for him.

well, getting rid of the minimum wage would be going too far.

just not sure about increasing it at this time. I mean, I'm not the most capable/smart person around, and I acknowledge in the real world I'll get beat many times (as in HS and college), but when I know I'm good, I really would LOVE to compete for my wage.

On a low-scale, Best Buy earned every penny they payed me, and more because I worked damn hard and drove business for them, as well as provided knowledge they couldn't just find on the street. If the employee pay scales had been competitive, I think I'd be doing really well, but as I has just gotten hired and there were fluctuating pay rates according to local competition, I had the lowest pay of any of my crew last summer. Even some just-hired chick was getting payed 70 cents more, which was weird. (this past summer they payed me more, though I didn't ask if it was regular fluctations or they knew I was good).

On a grander life-scale, if I were to get a business or liberal arts degree and work in management/eduction/retail/marketing, etc... I know I'd do a heck of a job for whatever my wage/pay was and that advancement possibilities would come at some point.

Still, for the sake of not reverting to pseudo-slavery in certain situations, I do think having a minimum wage is good (and I think it's at a decent level right now).

 

[cvxfreak]

That student testing thing sounds like a real drag.

 

[Makura]

When I read his quotes I can hear his voice in my head. :lol

"Nawl ehzz naht de tYYYme toooo ceeate bahee-ers tooooo owl econawmic heecawvery ohr eeverse zhee mOmentum wee hawve ganewated," he said. "EYE wahnt too cweeate maw jahbs ahnd mayke evewy Cahleefornya jahb mow secyoo."

 

[videogamer]

Eh. I'm still a bit iffy on this. I had a job mentoring some students for 10.50 an hour, which isn't bad because all I did was boss/help the student around and tell him how to run the experiment. On the other hand, I see other people actually working, cleaning toilets and such, and I feel kind of guilty. Even though my job required previous knowledge, it's a bit disconcerting to see other people work so much harder for less.

I almost tried to take a $22/hr job over the summer but my dad offered $20/hr under the table (both pretty easy jobs) so I'm certainly part of this system, and I don't know if I want to stay in it.

 

[etiolate]

Urk. Bureaucracy in these things is bad enough already. California is one of the less friendly of the states to new businesses-- this would just make that situation worse.

I know that. I knew someone who worked with the Krispy Kreme franchises and they had a long waiting time to put in new stores. It was a lot of tip-toeing to put in a store in a busy area, but these mega-chains still pop up everywhere. The issue still is that regulations aren't as great as the companies will to build absolutely everywhere till they own everything.

 

[White Man]

yeah, looking at a libertarian perspective, it might actually create a heck of lot more jobs if there were no minimum wage. One thing that might hold that vision off would be that a lot of lazy people wouldn't work for low wages and thus wouldn't help increase employment.

And while we're at it, let's get rid of OSHA, as well. I look forward to seeing future generations slaving away in legally sanctioned American sweatshops. Made in USA. Minimum wages are in place to keep us from being exploited.

And people that would refuse to work would be considered LAZY? Maybe people just wouldn't like being EXPLOITED hardcore?

 

[videogamer]

And while we're at it, let's get rid of OSHA, as well. I look forward to seeing future generations slaving away in legally sanctioned American sweatshops. Made in USA. Minimum wages are in place to keep us from being exploited.

And people that would refuse to work would be considered LAZY? Maybe people just wouldn't like being EXPLOITED hardcore?

I find some people really really lazy. Like the people who leech off rather unwilling relatives. Even at the workplace, I catch people playing games, searching on Ebay, etc. If anything, they aren't being worked to the max.

 

[Makura]

Nobody likes my Awwnold impression....er, text conversion?

 

[HyperionX]

Any person with simple economics knowledge sides with Arnold...

Not necessarily. Minimum wages in this country are well below living wage (~$9). Having such a low minimum wage means the poor simply cannot support themselves unless they work double-shifts or welfare, especially if they have children. Obviously it's very difficult to live that way, so while it may protect jobs in the short run, it will have a devestating effect on society and indirectly the economy in the long run.

 

[Alcibiades]

Eh. I'm still a bit iffy on this. I had a job mentoring some students for 10.50 an hour, which isn't bad because all I did was boss/help the student around and tell him how to run the experiment. On the other hand, I see other people actually working, cleaning toilets and such, and I feel kind of guilty. Even though my job required previous knowledge, it's a bit disconcerting to see other people work so much harder for less.

I almost tried to take a $22/hr job over the summer but my dad offered $20/hr under the table (both pretty easy jobs) so I'm certainly part of this system, and I don't know if I want to stay in it.

hey, I know what you mean.

Here in my college dorm we have custodians clean or restrooms, etc...

I mean, in all honesty, I probably would take laid-back jobs w/ decent-to-good pay, but if I was an employer, I'm not sure I'd want to hire me for that.

that said, for my only job situation so far, I've been a hard working employee, straining myself and going beyond what the job called for...

because even lowly labor deserves a sense of deceny and dignity, a moderate minimum wage isn't a bad idea...

 

[Alcibiades]

I find some people really really lazy. Like the people who leech off rather unwilling relatives. Even at the workplace, I catch people playing games, searching on Ebay, etc. If anything, they aren't being worked to the max.

true, a lot of my extended family has lived off ripping off my mom and dad...

maybe it's pyschological problems holding them back cause of the way my grandparents were, but either way, some people, for whatever reason (fair or unfair), are lazy.

heck, even I come to mind. I'm really lazy for school work and being efficient. When I need to get something done at my job it's a different story, but when it comes to self-improvement, I procastinate, I'm messy, easily distracted, etc...

I've been reading Booker T. Washington's biography for class, and I think it's slightly inspiring me to become more productive, turn off the TV and start doing things to better myself. That man is a literal definition of hard work, and when I compare my easy life and absolutely lazy, sloppy, and sluggish habits to his labor and work ethic, it's kind of a knock on my brain as to what is possible for anybody willing to work at it.

Even a 10-15% improvement in efficiency for me would be a drastic improvement....

 

[Flynn]

The housing is less expensive, the taxes are generally lower, etc

etc.= living miserable hand-to-mouth existances

Hooray for the free market! Hooray for America!

 

[Hitokage]

Even at the workplace, I catch people playing games, searching on Ebay, etc. If anything, they aren't being worked to the max.

And just HOW is this different from many white collar types who are paid far more? YES, IF YOU'RE READING THIS NOW FROM WORK I'M TALKING ABOUT YOU.

This laziness you speak of is not a trait exclusive to the bottom end, despite what social darwinism would tell you.

...but you know, I do remember a study saying that while such seemingly time wasting activities may impact productivity slightly, they help sustain morale.

 

[goodcow]

The housing is less expensive, the taxes are generally lower, etc

I still find it amazing that NY's minimum wage is the federal $5.15.

 

[sprsk]

minimum wage is too low.

 

[Dilbert]

Minimum wage should be set as a percentage of the cost of living...and preferably calculated in a region, not in an entire state.

It's ridiculous to talk about job creation numbers without talking about the CATEGORY in which those jobs are created. A job which doesn't afford a minimum standard of living is useless. As for a higher minimum wage being "bad for business," how exactly does business survive if no one has any expendable income to pay for goods?

 

[DarienA]

Living Wage dammit... Living Wage.

 

[OmniGamer]

I still find it amazing that NY's minimum wage is the federal $5.15.

Yeah, damn Pataki just shot down a wage increase recently.

 

[videogamer]

And just HOW is this different from many white collar types who are paid far more? YES, IF YOU'RE READING THIS NOW FROM WORK I'M TALKING ABOUT YOU.

This laziness you speak of is not a trait exclusive to the bottom end, despite what social darwinism would tell you.

...but you know, I do remember a study saying that while such seemingly time wasting activities may impact productivity slightly, they help sustain morale.

The people I catch doing this are indeed white collar workers, people with Master's degrees no less. There are even worse examples. When I was volunteering at the hospital, I found out that some of the guys in the basement filing room were looking at pornography.

 

[vangace]

I will tell you this though, Anorld will not be re- elected! He is slowly but surely terminating his dumb self.

 

[Flynn]

I will tell you this though, Anorld will not be re- elected! He is slowly but surely terminating his dumb self.

I wouldn't bet on that.

 

[Guzim]

Pimp.

 

[radioheadrule83]

Both the tories and lib dems in the UK said the same thing when Labour were pledging it on a campaign they eventually won. It's increased the quality of life here and I can't imagine a life without it. Some companies operating outside the country as well as inside it get cheap labour from India and other places sometimes, but largely most people in the country have benefited from a combination of this and New Deal "put people into work" schemes. Interestingly, the tories and lib dems now both accept minimum wage.

 

[Seth C]

And just HOW is this different from many white collar types who are paid far more? YES, IF YOU'RE READING THIS NOW FROM WORK I'M TALKING ABOUT YOU.

This laziness you speak of is not a trait exclusive to the bottom end, despite what social darwinism would tell you.

...but you know, I do remember a study saying that while such seemingly time wasting activities may impact productivity slightly, they help sustain morale.

Not surprising. Really, what's the reward for hard work these days? In most cases, it's just more work. At the last minimum wage job I worked, I was by far the hardest worker at my level. I was told so several times by the manager. What was my reward? I got the honor of cleaning the toilets. No one else would do it. Great motivational tool there.

Everyone knows that at this point, hard work doesn't earn you a spot at the top, ass kissing does.

 

[FoneBone]

This thread = why libertarians piss me off.