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Barry Bonds officially cleared of obstruction charges
- Thread starter XiaNaphryz
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Brohenheim
Member
Definite must read. The hands down GOAT
XGRaViSmOrSX
Member
Really is a shame he couldn't get over being overshadowed by the big HR numbers in the late 90s. Dude was so salty he decided to juice and make em all look like fools.
Also didn't help much that he was a bad clubhouse guy and terrible with the media. Once he was known as a juicer it was over for him and his chances of being in the HoF went from being a lock to no chance in hell.
The whole era of baseball is going to be missing a lot of big names for their link or even potential link to steroids.
Also didn't help much that he was a bad clubhouse guy and terrible with the media. Once he was known as a juicer it was over for him and his chances of being in the HoF went from being a lock to no chance in hell.
The whole era of baseball is going to be missing a lot of big names for their link or even potential link to steroids.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
If Bonds was given a penalty of say -400 home runs, would he still have the stats to make HoF?
Ninja Scooter
Member
Frozenprince
Banned
The GOAT. Better finally get into Cooperstown.
Seriously look at his numbers. Nobody is even remotely close in any category you want to quantify.
His walk rate is the greatest ever by a factor of almost 3.
Seriously look at his numbers. Nobody is even remotely close in any category you want to quantify.
His walk rate is the greatest ever by a factor of almost 3.
Sir Alemeth
Member
Future HOF
.342/.474/.690 .513 wOBA 197 wRC+ 206 OPS+ 168.4 fWAR 163.1 rWAR
.298/.444/.607 .435 wOBA 173 wRC+ 182 OPS+ 164.4 fWAR 162.4 rWAR
First line is Ruth and the second is Bonds. Counting stats like RBI and Runs do not carry as much weight as they're influenced by the team, batting order, and games played. Bonds has 1990 more PA than Ruth which pretty much accounts for his lead in certain areas.
None of this accounts for the seasons Ruth spent as a pitcher which was 5 pitching 130 innings or more. He played in less than 96 games and had less than 381 PA in 4 straight seasons due to him being a SP.
Bonds was better on the bases and a better defensive player but nether is enough to put him over Ruth who beats him easily in offense.
They played in different eras which means it is not easy to compare them directly like I did above. However Ruth dominated his era just as much if not more than Bonds did his.
We know Bonds took PEDs but we don't know when he started. I think he didn't need them as he would be a HoF player just playing on his natural talent. However Bonds had one 10 fWAR+ season before 2001 and then recorded 4 straight from age 36-39. He had none according to rWAR before 2001. Ruth had 9 seasons of 10 WAR+ and his first at age 25. I'm not sure how some fans call Bonds the GOAT.
.298/.444/.607 .435 wOBA 173 wRC+ 182 OPS+ 164.4 fWAR 162.4 rWAR
First line is Ruth and the second is Bonds. Counting stats like RBI and Runs do not carry as much weight as they're influenced by the team, batting order, and games played. Bonds has 1990 more PA than Ruth which pretty much accounts for his lead in certain areas.
None of this accounts for the seasons Ruth spent as a pitcher which was 5 pitching 130 innings or more. He played in less than 96 games and had less than 381 PA in 4 straight seasons due to him being a SP.
Bonds was better on the bases and a better defensive player but nether is enough to put him over Ruth who beats him easily in offense.
They played in different eras which means it is not easy to compare them directly like I did above. However Ruth dominated his era just as much if not more than Bonds did his.
We know Bonds took PEDs but we don't know when he started. I think he didn't need them as he would be a HoF player just playing on his natural talent. However Bonds had one 10 fWAR+ season before 2001 and then recorded 4 straight from age 36-39. He had none according to rWAR before 2001. Ruth had 9 seasons of 10 WAR+ and his first at age 25. I'm not sure how some fans call Bonds the GOAT.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
I'm sure:
Ruth dominated in an era in which a huge swath of players were barred from ever playing in the league. You can't just ignore that.
Stormhammer
Member
Barry Bonds juiced in a juicing era and just outplayed everyone else for a few years time. I sometimes wonder what kind of stuff some of the old baseball players did to gain an edge that gets swept under the rug because of the idolization of them from the baseball writers.
Frozenprince
Banned
Look up what they did to the ball when Ruth pitched and what happened in 1920.
Totally different eras.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Babe Ruth supposedly injected himself with sheep testicle extract. It fucked him up, but it sorta shows the lengths guys have always been willing to go to. Same thing with greenies in the 50s and 60s.
I didn't ignore it. Minorities were largely banned from playing during Ruth's era which removed some of the most talented players from getting a chance to compete at the MLB level. However every player in Ruth's era played the same competition. Everyone had the same opportunity to put up the numbers which Ruth did and no one was able to do it.
Look at wRC+ which shows how much better a player is at creating runs than league average. Ruth has a greater advantage than Bonds during their respective eras. It's a stat that allow for comparison between different eras and shows how much a better a player is than their peers.
Many fans like to mention Bonds's OBP because he walked like crazy. However how a player gets on base is as important than simply knowing how many times a player gets on base. Ruth got on base is a more impressive way and while their OBP is very similar you can see Ruth widens that gap when comparing wOBA.
Bonds had an amazing career. Before the PED accusations he was on his way to the HoF and a top 10 player.
It wasn't just minorities...there wasn't any global competition either. Ruth dominated an immature game that didn't even really consider the concept of the home run until he came along. Bonds dominated a mature game against world-wide competition. Yes, he broke the game. Watching him over that 5-7 year stretch was mind-blowing.
timetokill
Banned
The only thing bigger than Bonds' numbers is his ego.
Well, that and his head.
Dude just couldn't stand being overshadowed and had to turn to the juice. Add that to his general asshole nature and I won't be sad if he never gets in the Hall.
Well, that and his head.
Dude just couldn't stand being overshadowed and had to turn to the juice. Add that to his general asshole nature and I won't be sad if he never gets in the Hall.
I think you skipped the part where I mentioned everyone had the same opportunity as Ruth. Everyone during his era played the same competition yet no one was able to dominate like he did.
Why was he the only one able to dominate an immature game as you call it, on that level? Why wasn't there other players putting up 160 WAR careers? You mentioned yourself that no one considered the home run until Ruth came along. You're admitting that Ruth single handily changed the entire sport to what we know it as today yet Bonds is the one who broke the game?
Are you sure Bonds would have been as dominate if he was born in 1895 and played in the 20s and 30s? What if Ruth was born in 1964 and had access to the training, equipment, supplements, and technology that Bonds had.
Bonds was a douche and a cheat and sure it's no excuse but so was everyone else and Pete Rose was also a thief, which is what rigged gambling is. Theft.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Dodger fan opinions don't count on this matter for obvious reasons! ;P
I'm 100% sure that Bonds wouldn't have been allowed to play in the 1920s. But, yes, I'm sure Bonds would probably have had some fun with the low-80s fastballs of that era.
Dominating a small talent pool just isn't as impressive. Dominating a game where there is world-wide competition with 10s of millions of dollars in contracts on the line just gives a different perspective to Bonds' numbers. Think of it in terms of a bell curve where both players are both way off the end...but he curve is much broader in the case of Bonds.
I'm in the camp where I don't really give a crap if he juiced as my guess is that a majority of players in that era did. But also realize that we don't know that he juiced beyond applying some skin cream.
I don't get this perspective. What (if!) Bonds did he did to help his team win. What Rose did was compromise the very results of the games he bet on (when his team was involved). Basically throwing games (in affect) to make some money means we can no longer trust the sport we are watching.
Jmanunknown
Member
Look up Ty Cobb, Gaylord Perry and Charles A. Comiskey. Those three guys had lots of questionable issues. Babe Ruth had his share of off field issues as well. MLB and the baseball writers are a bunch of hypocritical fools. The owners, the players, and the writers they were all in on the "steroid era" and benefited from it yet only the players get punished after the fact. Why was Bud Selig able to keep his job after it came out the sport was so dirty? He will probably get into the hall of fame before players like Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds and I find that to be bs.
timetokill
Banned
Come on. Even Giants fans know, deep in their charred, mangled hearts, that Bonds was on the juice. Just like Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, etc etc. Everybody knows it.
The only question is whether or not people should care. The problem here is MLB was basically complicit in athletes doing it and did nothing until it became "an issue." They sure as hell reaped the rewards of dudes hitting more dingers, though.
Do we actually know if Rose ever bet against his own team?
matthewwhatever
Member
Doesn't he only have ten years before falling off the ballot? I'd like to see him get in too, because it's silly to have a Hall of Fame that doesn't include a guy who may be the best player ever, but I think the rule change was done specifically to make sure that he and Clemens stand little chance of making it in.
Oh no, he hurt sportswriters' feelings by not giving them interviews! Truly, he's a monster.
adamsappel
Member
Fuck Barry Bonds. I think it's one thing for a mediocre player to turn to steroids, but Bonds didn't need to at all. My stance might have softened if he wasn't such an asshole.
But on the other hand, fuck baseball writers, too. Nostalgic bitches.
Fuck Pete Rose. While I doubt he bet against the Reds, those times he didn't bet on his own team to win surely influenced the betting line and conspiring with mobsters should be enough to keep him out.
But on the other hand, fuck baseball writers, too. Nostalgic bitches.
SaganIsGOAT
Junior Member
YASSSSS!!
Some of my favorite childhood memories were heading to San Fran to watch Bonds play. His at bats were always a spectacle. GOAT indeed!
Bonds wont get into the hall because of the smoking syringes around him (and for being a massive dickbag) but he honestly should be in. He was basically a shoe-in to the Hall of Fame before he ever started his juicing. The guy was insanely talented and honestly never needed to get on the juice in the first place, which makes the whole thing kind of depressing.
Considering Pete Rose has been caught lying about everything else regarding his gambling, I think its likely he bet against the Reds once or twice
Considering Pete Rose has been caught lying about everything else regarding his gambling, I think its likely he bet against the Reds once or twice
BFIB
Member
To all the people bashing the writers (which a lot of what they pull is warranted), but this is all on Selig. Happened on his watch, and he instead stuck his head in the sand and refused to even acknowledge there was a PED issue within the game until he was drug before a government committee, and basically talked to like a child to clean up the game.
So what does Selig do? Doesn't address the HOF, instead lays it on the laps of the voters.
So what does Selig do? Doesn't address the HOF, instead lays it on the laps of the voters.
Eh...we don't know anything for certain. Head-size GAF is almost as bad as anti-GMO GAF. My guess would be that he used but without proof it is difficult to state things with absolute certainty like many on here are doing.
And, like another poster said, it doesn't matter if Rose never bet against his own team. NOT betting on them to win amounts to the same thing.
Frozenprince
Banned
Man he was on the juice, I don't care. Nobody cares. But he was on it, everybody was. There's nothing wrong with the fact that he was on it, but he was.
Skellig Gra
Member
I mean he definitely cheated but since there is no actual proof I don't see how you can keep him out of Cooperstown, especially considering there are plenty of other cheaters in there already.
timetokill
Banned
It wasn't just writers. It was fans as well. I guess he was an "equal opportunity" asshole.
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