TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
And let me guess... this plan to replace all of the track would double down on that?
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BART (SF Bay public transit): We need billions to rebuild our system
- Thread starter Dalek
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And let me guess... this plan to replace all of the track would double down on that?
time to post the requisite meltdown that happened on the bart twitter a few months ago
http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...id-in-Twitter-exchange-with-angry-6900683.php
shit's finally expanding to the south bay at least. there is zero practical means of traveling from the south bay to the east bay without a caltrain-bart transfer
http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...id-in-Twitter-exchange-with-angry-6900683.php
shit's finally expanding to the south bay at least. there is zero practical means of traveling from the south bay to the east bay without a caltrain-bart transfer
PumpkinSpice
Banned
That's because, across your country, the makeup of the different layers of government ensures that the money for any significant infrastructure needs to come from the feds.
It's abysmal. For my final a few years ago I had to create an advertising campagin for a company - print ads and video. I made one for the San Francisco Bay Ferry-and I just filmed parts of my BART commute to show how awful it was for the ad:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gkddsmd0204yh3o/Ferry-Bart Ad.m4v?dl=0
tearsintherain
Member
Over 30% of Bart's budget goes to pensions, and every year that number increases. Its the kind of problem that over time destroys companies, as people live longer and longer and their healthcare costs grow astronomically in the last few years of life.
In a normal situation new companies would come in to compete (Southwest in airlines, Honda/Toyota in cars) that don't have the union and pension liabilities and are structured to never have them, but obviously that is not realistic in mass transportation systems, although the competition is essentially driving and ride sharing.
In a normal situation new companies would come in to compete (Southwest in airlines, Honda/Toyota in cars) that don't have the union and pension liabilities and are structured to never have them, but obviously that is not realistic in mass transportation systems, although the competition is essentially driving and ride sharing.
Southwest Airlines is more union than not.
If you feel that BART workers are unfair compensated relative to the amount of work they do, BARTs jobs page is here if you want to get in that hot union action.
Because a good portion of out country wants the next wave of mass-transit to be privately funded and for profit.
thehypocrite
Member
How is that the fault of the employees? Did they did a bad job?
The $3.3M paid out in bonuses is 0.03% of the $9.6B BART said back in 2014 that they would need to fully fund their capital improvement program for 10 years.
It's a red herring for people unhappy at their own situation.
Escape Goat
Member
The BORT system is a model of efficiency.
thehypocrite
Member
Thanks for the info. Infrastructure needs funding all around the US. People need to pay up. Maybe those rich tech companies should foot the bill for the BART needs.
It's not a money pit and people only view it as such because our priorities our so completely out of whack. Our interstate system literally siphons billions of dollars for a single interchange upgrade and no one bats a fucking eye, but a transit system can't manage to get $300 million (example) for routine annual repairs to keep it generally working. Instead, we get this. A transit system from the 60s in total disrepair.
America's transportation is completely fucked. We "fix it" by building more highways and letting transit decay, then cry about how much transit costs and ignore how much highways are subsidized. It completely disgusts me.
America's transportation is completely fucked. We "fix it" by building more highways and letting transit decay, then cry about how much transit costs and ignore how much highways are subsidized. It completely disgusts me.
DorkLord54
Member
This is even funnier, since one of the multitude of reasons why the Bay Area is so slow to fix its transit is because techies think ride-sharing companies will replace public transit, and thus don't want to do anything about transit infrastructure because they've deluded themselves into thinking that multi-person vehicles are completely obsolete, and that privatized ride-sharing is the wave of the future.
Have they finally gotten rid of all the carpeted seats on the train stock? Last time I was there I didn't see any carpeted floors but did still see some carpeted seats.
The human being who thought carpet *anything* on a public transit train was a good idea deserves to have their meals served on said carpet. It seems like BART was poorly designed from the very beginning.
The human being who thought carpet *anything* on a public transit train was a good idea deserves to have their meals served on said carpet. It seems like BART was poorly designed from the very beginning.
They've spoken to this before. Carpet was considered luxurious when BART came out and that's why they went with it.
the entire bay area transit system is terrible, and terrible in comparison to other cities of its size (including suburban areas).
shattyboombatty
Member
This must be a good day, there's still people wearing some bags and almost enough room in front for 1/2 another human. I've ridden bart almost for 10 years and it's gotten SO much worse lately. My 6:30pm experience has basically gone like this:
2006: usually get a seat home
2007: lucky to get a seat home, plenty of standing room
2010: a seat is out of the question. Usually room to stand
2012: usually enough standing room to have a 1-ft personal bubble around you
2016: nearly impossible to get on a train at embarcadero going east. plan to have 2-3 trains 100% full pass you, where MAYBE 3 people get on each.
2020: throw self in meat grinder. bart operators will pour you onto train floor
Don't ride-sharing companies want autonomy as the future (i.e. self-driving cars)?
I was gonna chime in about Toronto, but we're lucky. We're nowhere as bad as the BART and the majority of public transit in the US. I want to say its almost non existent compared to here.
Well except the RT.
100% accurate. I will sometimes take the train BACK 2 or 3 stops to Powell or Civic Center so I can get on a train before it pulls into Embarcadero.
The federal government pays a lot for public transportation through the new starts program, but there are some issues for giving money to BART:
- technically it focuses transportation spending on interstate activities (which make more sense)
- if it should spend money, it should focus on more populated areas (the Bay area is not even in the top 10 metro areas, and more populated places like LA, Dallas, Houston, Philadelphia, Miami, Boston and Atlanta deserve it more as they have worse infrastructure than BART)
- most transportation comes from the federal gas tax, which has not been raised in a long time, and is inadequate as it is collecting fewer taxes per miles driven (cars use less gas due to better MPG/electricity
A primarily local issue requires a primarily local solution.
they should try and learn from European public transportation systems. I don't know why I've been hearing about San Francisco's BART problems for decades, and the city keeps growing and things keep getting worse. They don't even have a big population like most main European cities.
The comparable metro areas are Miami, Atlanta, Boston, Phoenix, Riverside, Detroit, Seattle, Minneapolis and San Diego. BART is not really terrible compared to those metro areas (I don't think the T in Boston is that great). The Bay area isn't really that populated.
Even if you use a combined statistical area approach, the comparable areas are Chicago, Boston, DC, Dallas, Philadelphia, Houston, Atlanta and Miami.
demosthenes
Member
My friend actuall works in SF and is working on this proposal. She was visiting home recently and talked for like 2 hours about this and some other stuff, was pretty crazy to hear a lot of the details.
WickedCobra03
Member
I for the most part really like BART. Fairly on time, decently priced and can get you across the city super quick. Things that suck are, breakdowns involving the transbay tunnel that literally shutdown the city, high traffic times and not made its way completely around the bay. Kind of sucks getting to a Sharks game other than riding the bullet.
It needs to be funded, and not just barebones, but needs a crap ton of money thrown at it for a good number of years. Might take a decade or so of a crazy amount of work.
EDIT: Tech companies have kind of ruined the bay area. You can call me an old man on this one, but they have definitely left their mark and I am not sure what the future is for the area once those companies move away, disappear, whatever...
Also, Minneaplois rail is kind of terrible. I mean its a start and better than most of the midwest, but its slow and limited.
It needs to be funded, and not just barebones, but needs a crap ton of money thrown at it for a good number of years. Might take a decade or so of a crazy amount of work.
EDIT: Tech companies have kind of ruined the bay area. You can call me an old man on this one, but they have definitely left their mark and I am not sure what the future is for the area once those companies move away, disappear, whatever...
Also, Minneaplois rail is kind of terrible. I mean its a start and better than most of the midwest, but its slow and limited.
I can't believe anyone who's ridden a transit system in any other major metro area would call Bart good.
I agree, its a 50 year old system not designed for what its being used for now. Its absurd that they've done nothing but basically maintenance on it for 50 years. Its absurd that they now come to people and act like thats somehow a good thing. Like "Yeah, this car is filled with vomit stained carpet, but you can't expect us to be on some sort of schedule that, I don't know, buys a few new cars every few years instead of buying an entire new fleet ever 50 years."
Compared to many transit systems in the US, it is good.
milanbaros
Member?
The big issue is that underinvestment in public transport over long periods of time take years of huge spending and disruption to recover from. Look at the UK's rail network and the London Underground.
Decades of declining usage in the latter half of the twentieth century led to very little investment. Now the usage has skyrocketed and the investment needed is massive and the disruption is causes so bad because they waited until it was at braking point to do anything.
Decades of declining usage in the latter half of the twentieth century led to very little investment. Now the usage has skyrocketed and the investment needed is massive and the disruption is causes so bad because they waited until it was at braking point to do anything.
DorkLord54
Member
Exactly: automated cars that are privately owned by these companies at the expense of public transit.
All you have to do is look at the Rust Belt to see what happens when your city's source of wealth up and leaves.
God forbid that anyone pay into their healthcare and pension pot and actually get what they paid for and were promised.
Unknown Soldier
Member
BART is great for getting to the airport and back.
shadowfall
Member
If you have been through the infamous union strike, you will know how much of hostage they held us commuters till they got their demands. Bart people are well paid. Unions did do great things in past but BART union is certainly not one of them.
We got better weather here than SF. Take that Dalek you heartless machine!
I don't know the details of the BART contract but lots of towns, cities, and states have finical issues caused by horrible pensions from union contracts. There are a lot places where pensions are based off the last years income and so people retiring work large amounts of overtime to drive up their pension. You're talking people making $120k+ a year in retirement on a base salary of $80k. This is starting at 50 years old in some cases. That's $3 million for someone who lives to 75 before health benefits. Here is a list of top pensions in California and it starts with 4 people making over $1 million a year. http://transparentcalifornia.com/pensions/all/?page=1
I'm all for unions and was a teamster myself for a for years. The decline of unions is one of the biggest issues with income inequality and health care in the US. Also some towns issues are they stopped funding the pensions at some point and now have to throw in large sums to make up for the interest they never earned. But unions have to be honest with themselves and realize they are a big part of the decline based on their behavior.
Is BART actually a money pit? Has the service received significant injections of public funding to improve the system?
Seems like in 2009 they started the process to get a new fleet of cars. 775 in total. And they'll only hit revenue service in 2017 really -- the balance finishing in 2021. This new plea seems to be to a) expand further with 'option' cars, bringing the order to 1,081. And b) replace parts of the track/system itself.
Even if they bring in new cars.... I wonder how many are simply going to replace old ones. I'm sure plenty will be an extension and not just a replacement, but it could be hundreds that are sent out to pasture.
Anyway -- fund this shit, America. Mass transit systems are incredibly important. Just try replacing the system with buses and highways and see where that gets you.
Seems like in 2009 they started the process to get a new fleet of cars. 775 in total. And they'll only hit revenue service in 2017 really -- the balance finishing in 2021. This new plea seems to be to a) expand further with 'option' cars, bringing the order to 1,081. And b) replace parts of the track/system itself.
Even if they bring in new cars.... I wonder how many are simply going to replace old ones. I'm sure plenty will be an extension and not just a replacement, but it could be hundreds that are sent out to pasture.
Anyway -- fund this shit, America. Mass transit systems are incredibly important. Just try replacing the system with buses and highways and see where that gets you.
The motor car is one of the worst things to happen to pretty much any western society and nobody seems to realise it.
That would be INCREDIBLY expensive. Each time you do it. Try and imagine a supply chain creating highly specialized train parts, but just a few, and only every few years. Try and imagine Bombardier itself somehow surviving on this model without charging BART several times more for each car. It simply wouldn't work.
The only way you can do this is to order a lot at once. And securing the funds for such a venture is, of course, very very difficult. That's why they're forced to focus on maintenance for years and rely on cars that provide the bare minimum: functionality. That's why they write letters such as this one, desperate to find ways to get the money needed to keep a system like this operating.
DC Metro ordered hundreds of cars recently to replace an aging fleet. So has Chicago (contract went to China, which was controversial, but Chicago was able to tout how cheap they are). This is how it's done in the US, largely because the economy has prioritized cars and highways over the decades for reasons you can guess. Now that these systems are crumbling, they get funded. And meanwhile people complain that they shouldn't be funded because hey these metro systems are dirty and smelly and inefficient and crowded.... Not realizing that it's BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T BEEN FUNDED ENOUGH PREVIOUSLY that they are in such a horrid state.
Europe kind of realizes it. It's largely an American thing and goes back several decades to when there was a massive shift from public transit to cars.
Much more than that
Actually what the UK done was it's own special brand of madness
The tracks are still state owned and maintained via Network Rail
The rolling stock (i.e the trains) are privately owned generally via private investment groups who lease the trains to the operators.
The actual services themselves are ran by private companies which bid for regional franchises. They pay a fee to the Government for the franchise, pay Network Rail for use of the tracks and pay to lease the train.
So many cooks.
The bay area is divided into two metro areas, so looking at only the SF/Oakland metro area is misleading. BART is going to cover the SCV area as well, so it makes sense looking at the larger region, not just the SF metro area.
As a CSA, the Bay area is the 5th largest area in the US
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