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[DukeLongfellow]

Even though it's not going to happen, how would stopping trade with all of those countries not both screw up the US and alienate some really important players?

It's an empty threat if I ever saw one.

 

[gutter_trash]

So are you telling me that if NK attacked the US, that wouldn't include NATO?

New York City is in the North Atlantic and article 5 invoke was excerciced on 9/11

Guam LOL, sorry, but that's not North Atlantic

 

[SDCowboy]

Even though it's not going to happen, how would stopping trade with all of those countries not both screw up the US and alienate some really important players?

It's an empty threat if I ever saw one.

It would, which is why it won't ever happen.

 

[iRAWRasaurus]

That's funny because the string started with your post



And developed into a NATO related question (though it took some time until NATO was namedropped) after users stated that Europe wouldn't join Trump.

I never stated NATO in that original post. I only stated NATO as an "example" (since it's the one everyone knows about or heard atleast) if another NATO country was attacked and invoked article 5 to the USA. I was referring to military treaties (of any types) overall. Since it's pretty much an honor system.

 

[PdotMichael]

I didn't say that... I didn't mean that... it was just an example.
It's like Trump time here on GAF.

 

[gutter_trash]

I never stated NATO in that original post. I only stated NATO as an "example" (since it's the one everyone knows about or heard atleast) if another NATO country was attacked and invoked article 5 to the USA. I was referring to military treaties (of any types) overall. Since it's pretty much an honor system.

Trump has no honor, he has been insulting allies for years

why should an ally follow a madman down to hell caused by his twitter rants ?

 

[sneas78]

We have a guy playing with an H Bomb and you guys are arguing what NATO can or can't do.

 

[PdotMichael]

We have a guy playing with an H Bomb and you guys are arguing what NATO can or can't do.

We have guys here who somehow think that the rest of the world should join the USA because reasons.

 

[iRAWRasaurus]

Trump has no honor, he has been insulting allies for years

why should an ally follow a madman down to hell caused by his twitter rants ?

Yep you are correct. That's why I said regardless of the us president I would support military actions if require due to the treaties. But what can I do really. Join the military? Yeah of worst comes to worst, I will be there. Vote? Already do.

 

[firehawk12]

We have guys here who somehow think that the rest of the world should join the USA because reasons.

A great president once said, you're either with us or you're not with us. Double shame on me.

 

[PdotMichael]

A great president once said, you're either with us or you're not with us. Double shame on me.

It's always disturbing to see how fast that self-proclaimed liberal GAF can fall back to such rhetorics.

 

[brian577]

Just another warning not to fuck with the US or its allies. Same shit, different day. This crap is never going to end is it?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41140621

North Korea has defied UN sanctions and international pressure to develop nuclear weapons and test missiles that could potentially reach the US.

But speaking to reporters outside the White House, Mr Mattis said the US had the ability to defend itself and its allies South Korea and Japan, adding that its commitments were "ironclad".

"Any threat to the United States or its territories - including Guam - or our allies will be met with a massive military response, a response both effective and overwhelming."

 

[ZoltanXerxes]

Avoiding war keeps getting a little slimmer day by day. Kim J wants to stay in power, that possibly means he doesn't want war because a war would cause Kim J to lose power (lose the war). The fallout of war with North Korea is what China is trying to avoid. Even after this latest nuclear test China did not add any new santions to North Korea. China doesn't want an influx of NK immigrants to cross it's boarders. That being said China is getting squeezed by this vice as time goes on and will not able to avoid this matter for much longer.

 

[blackflag]

But Game of Thrones will only come back in 2019 =(

Ugh why am I only just hearing about the 2 year wait in this thread. That really sucks. I mean nukes suck worse but still.

 

[qcf x2]

It's not only china.

Nations having trade with NK:


https://twitter.com/AkiPeritz/status/904385928826904576
7/10 of the largest economies on earth

It's basically economic suicide for the US

Right, but China accounts for more of NK's trade (by value) than the rest combined, don't they? Most of those countries would back down immediately and lose their $1m deals with NK before letting the US cut ties with them. The question is whether China would too, and I have to believe they would, albeit angrily.

 

[Guy Legend]

Avoiding war keeps getting a little slimmer day by day. Kim J wants to stay in power, that possibly means he doesn't want war because a war would cause Kim J to lose power (lose the war). The fallout of war with North Korea is what China is trying to avoid. Even after this latest nuclear test China did not add any new santions to North Korea. China doesn't want an influx of NK immigrants to cross it's boarders. That being said China is getting squeezed by this vice as time goes on and will not able to avoid this matter for much longer.

That's why North Korea won't attack anyone first. That's why the US shouldn't be the one who attacks first. That's also why no one will actually attack (unless there is some colossal lack of common sense on one side as the case in any potential war).

Diplomacy is the only solution. Everyone knows it. North Korea believes they garner the greatest leverage in that by being a nuclear state.

 

[habithipster]

"Any threat to the United States or its territories - including Guam - or our allies will be met with a massive military response, a response both effective and overwhelming."

What precisely is considered a threat.

 

[perfectchaos007]

Ugh why am I only just hearing about the 2 year wait in this thread. That really sucks. I mean nukes suck worse but still.

The writers need extra time to disappoint their fans

 

[ClosingADoor]

New York City is in the North Atlantic and article 5 invoke was excerciced on 9/11

Guam LOL, sorry, but that's not North Atlantic

By this logic Russia could invade Alaska and the rest of NATO goes "lol, not in the Atlantic." It doesn't work that way.

 

[PdotMichael]

By this logic Russia could invade Alaska and the rest of NATO goes "lol, not in the Atlantic." It doesn't work that way.

Article 6 is clear in that regard.

Alaska is also part of North America.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Article 6 is clear in that regard.

Alaska is also part of North America.

OK, just read up on that, interesting that the US itself made that decision. But if the US wants to call on NATO for help, NATO will agree to that I think. Now, not every nation might sent a ton of troops or go all out war. But to ignore the US request at that time would mean a breakdown of the alliance and European countries are not going to do that with Russia acting up lately.

Whether the US wants to call upon NATO is a different story of course, they probably won't and deal with it themselves with their Pacific partners.

But European involvement in Korea is not really new, multiple countries were involved in the Korean War there.

 

[Joezie]

By this logic Russia could invade Alaska and the rest of NATO goes "lol, not in the Atlantic." It doesn't work that way.

Alaska is part of the North American Continent and above the tropic of cancer. It is entirely valid in the hypothetical invocation.

Edited: I need to stop posting for a while.

Now, not every nation might sent a ton of troops or go all out war.

I don't think anyone expects this tbh. Even during the Afghan Surge, the US had 2.5x larger troops numbers than the entirety of the NATO coalition combined. Also NATO and even the US would likely not want to impair NATO's strategic ability to respond to more domestic emergencies if it needed to.

 

[PdotMichael]

OK, just read up on that, interesting that the US itself made that decision. But if the US wants to call on NATO for help, NATO will agree to that I think. Now, not every nation might sent a ton of troops or go all out war. But to ignore the US request at that time would mean a breakdown of the alliance and European countries are not going to do that with Russia acting up lately.

Whether the US wants to call upon NATO is a different story of course, they probably won't and deal with it themselves with their Pacific partners.

But European involvement in Korea is not really new, multiple countries were involved in the Korean War there.

Article 6 exists because the NATO shouldn't be involved in possible conflicts in the back then existing colonies.

Any coalition regarding to Korea is not related to NATO - or possible other conflicts in the South China Sea.

 

[Pomerlaw]

Just another warning not to fuck with the US or its allies. Same shit, different day. This crap is never going to end is it?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41140621

"Threat" is not really clear, but I kind of trust Mattis on this. Much more than Trump. He is just saying the truth, a truth important for the NK regime to understand : If they attack the US or it's allies, they are dead.

EDIT :

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/white-house-responds-to-north-korea-s-h-bomb-test-1038740547763

"We are not looking at the total annihiliation of a country namely NK, but as I said ealier, we have many means to do this."

Shit. This is getting really serious. Mattis saying that sent shivers down my spine.

 

[Xyrmellon]

Self preservation or not, every proclamation by NK state media focuses on attacking the U.S. Maps of the U.S., video of nukes going off in American cities, direct verbal threats, etc. Now that they realistically have that capability, if NK specifically says,"we are going to use this to attack you", how long do we wait until we act?

 

[SDCowboy]

Self preservation or not, every proclamation by NK state media focuses on attacking the U.S. Maps of the U.S., video of nukes going off in American cities, direct verbal threats, etc. Now that they realistically have that capability, if NK specifically says,"we are going to use this to attack you", how long do we wait until we act?

Hopefully forever, because NK is not going to attack anyone. They aren't suicidal.

 

[Betty]

Hopefully forever, because NK is not going to attack anyone. They aren't suicidal.

They could fuck up and accidentally hit Japan or some other country or a ship belonging to someone else though, just one mistake could be all it takes.

 

[MC Safety]

This should be a cautionary tale for everyone who's passed the buck.

Sixty-plus years of someone else's problem recently became Donald Trump's problem.

 

[Jams775]

Hopefully forever, because NK is not going to attack anyone. They aren't suicidal.

What if they aren't suicidal but completely delusional? They've been sniffing their own farts for so long they probably believe their own lies.

 

[Lightning Count]

This is getting scary Mattis just doubled down on the all options on the table rhetoric. Warning there will be massive military response if North Korea continues it's threats and aggressive testing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-41140621

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Hopefully forever, because NK is not going to attack anyone. They aren't suicidal.

Not to invoke Godwin's law and the situation is quite different but... I wonder how long people were saying "oh they'll never do X" about Germany before ww2.

 

[dragonelite]

Not to invoke Godwin's law and the situation is quite different but... I wonder how long people were saying "oh they'll never do X" about Germany before ww2.

Apples and oranges..

 

[malfcn]

Sorry to the NK people. They are going to be killed by their leader, or nuked because of their leader.

 

[Shadax the wizard]

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Not to invoke Godwin's law and the situation is quite different but... I wonder how long people were saying "oh they'll never do X" about Germany before ww2.

WW2 was before nukes.

 

[norinrad]

Sorry to the NK people. They are going to be killed by their leader, or nuked because of their leader.

Wrong, nobody is being nuked.

 

[maniac-kun]

Couldnt the artilery that is aimed at Seoul be nuked?

 

[frontovik]

It's rather disconcerting that history has shown that states which are supported to represent the people in theory, can just as easily condemn a nation to annihilation without regards for lives.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Couldnt the artilery that is aimed at Seoul be nuked?

Only if you wanted Seoul to be covered in radioactive fallout.

 

[brian577]

Couldnt the artilery that is aimed at Seoul be nuked?

Do you have any idea how close Seoul is to the DMZ?

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Couldnt the artilery that is aimed at Seoul be nuked?

Yes. Then the nuclear radiation from dropping a nuke at the border between Koreas ruins Seoul instead. Whoops.

 

[JABEE]

Sorry to the NK people. They are going to be killed by their leader, or nuked because of their leader.

Is there a consensus on how bad the conditions are in North Korea now or is it all speculation?

 

[perfectchaos007]

Iron Dome isn't designed to intercept MIRV's on their terminal phase from a ballistic trajectory. Warheads that are approaching from an altitude higher than what the ISS orbits at, with a reentry speed of 7km/s, multiple times faster than a bullet and next to impossible to hit. Literal orbital bombardment!

Now thats kinda scary. I didn't know you could make bombs like a shotgun shell and have the artillery spread across a wide area. How destructive could each mini-bomb be?

 

[maniac-kun]

Yes. Then the nuclear radiation from dropping a nuke at the border between Koreas ruins Seoul instead. Whoops.

But i guess less people would die.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

But i guess less people would die.

No, they'd just die from American irradiation poisoning, slowly and painfully over the course of weeks or even months, rather than from the merciful quickness of an artillery explosion.

With allies like America, who needs enemies?

 

[Armaros]

No, they'd just die from American irradiation poisoning, slowly and painfully over the course of weeks or even months, rather than from the merciful quickness of an artillery explosion.

Also if they survive, their descendants could suffer from genetic disorders due to radiation sickness.

And considering the population of Seoul, that would be an entire generation of South Koreans.

 

[dragonelite]

No, they'd just die from American irradiation poisoning, slowly and painfully over the course of weeks or even months, rather than from the merciful quickness of an artillery explosion.

With allies like America, who needs enemies?

Don't forget the genetic damage in future generations.

 

[RAWRferal]

Now thats kinda scary. I didn't know you could make bombs like a shotgun shell and have the artillery spread across a wide area. How destructive could each mini-bomb be?

Several hiroshimas.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

Would Kim even bother selling Nuke tech to terrorists or other rogue nations? That would make the world burn. Doesn't he first and foremost care about upholding North Korean regime and nothing else?

This is my biggest fear

 

[TarNaru33]

NATO wasn't relevant when Argentinia invaded the Falkland Islands. NATO only includes areas in the Northern Atlantic and then only main territories.

You are free to read the Wikipedia article related to NATO.

It is important to remember that NATO needs to be invoked, UK did not ask for NATO help, so NATO didn't help.