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[Ms.Galaxy]

I really hate how a lot of people ended up conflating

"Let's not call everyone who has a grievance with the Clinton campaign or current democratic platform a racist/bigot/whatever so we can reach more voters"

with

"WE NEED TO CODDLE RACISTS"

If you voted for a fascist bigot who used a megaphone connected to stadium speakers to speak his dog whistle politics, understanding full well what it intended and the consequence of his policies would have on minorities and those in the lower class, you are either a bigot yourself, whether through intent or ignorance, or a complete idiot.

Nothing, and I mean nothing, in Hillary Clinton's platform is worse than literal policies in Trump's platform that calls for discrimination and even banning an entire religion.

Those who didn't vote are just as bad as those who voted Trump because their votes, not voting is still voting, means that they were okay with either outcome. They are okay that there was a good chance that bigotry, fear, and hate would be the main policies of the U.S. in 2017. Anyone who calls themselves an ally to minorities and didn't vote because "Clinton didn't speak to me" or "Facebook said Clinton did x" can just stop calling themselves that completely, because that apathy harmed us greatly.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Voting in America isn't zero-sum because it's not compulsory. You lost people who voted for Obama, but didn't vote for Clinton in a number of key states. These people didn't vote for Trump. Mine, and those with likeminded arguments, say that the Clinton campaign didn't do anything to incentivise voters in these regions in the same way Obama did. She made no effort to address their grievances with her. We saw so much dogpiling on this forum, instantly, and people being labelled racists if they weren't behind Clinton 100%. We have evidence that this attitude extended more generally beyond this forum. This clearly didn't help the depressed democratic voter turnout in those key states.

No one is saying "we need to understand Trump supporters". We don't. They have clearly chosen to support a bigot. What we need to do is understand why people who generally vote democratic, decided not to vote at all this election. And perhaps labelling anyone who didn't vote Clinton a racist isn't the best way to do that.

If you really feel that everyone who didn't vote for Clinton is being labeled a racist, than I don't think there's anything left to discuss.

 

[Slayven]

I've been disgusted by liberals calling for reconciliation, or "telling Trump voters how we feel" and all this other dumb shit. You're not going to convince a group of people who voted for a racist fascist who abuses women that they should be nicer, or that we can work together, or that maybe they can stop killing you (if you're black/brown/gay/trans/etc). They aren't going to stop and you'd be a fool to think otherwise.

The main focus should be on organizing at the state level, helping oppressed people any way you can, and preparing for 2018 and 2020. 2018 will likely be ugly, but 2020 can be a win. Democrats lost a turnout election this year. Don't let it happen again.

Another thing: you better start familiarizing yourself with your state's draconian voter suppression laws and be prepared to fucking deal with it. You have 2-3 years to get the required paperwork and IDs. Get it done, and help organizations that are helping minority voters do the same.

pretty much

 

[Talka]

the arc of history bends towards fucking violence.

What do you mean by this?

 

[cheezcake]

If you voted for a fascist bigot who used a megaphone connected to stadium speakers to speak his dog whistle politics, understanding full well what it intended and the consequence of his policies would have on minorities and those in the lower class, you are either a bigot yourself, whether through intent or ignorance, or a complete idiot.

Nothing, and I mean nothing, in Hillary Clinton's platform is worse than literal policies in Trump's platform that calls for discrimination and even banning an entire religion.

I didn't say a thing about getting Trump supporters on your side, that's not going to happen. I didn't say a thing about Trump supporters not being bad, they are. I didn't make any comparison between Clinton's and Trump's platforms. But thank you for exemplifying the exact issue we have in trying to have nuanced discussion about reasons the democrats lost on this forum.

If you really feel that everyone who didn't vote for Clinton is being labeled a racist, than I don't think there's anything left to discuss.

Hey look I didn't say that either. I said that doing so is a bad strategy, and we have plenty of examples of it happening. Not everyone, but it's indicative of an attitude which sweeps away issues people have who very much could be Clinton voters.

 

[PeskyToaster]

What do you mean by this?

It's just tough talk from people who have to eat Taco Bell on the toilet.

 

[Guileless]

the arc of history bends towards fucking violence.

The World Is Not Falling Apart: Never mind the headlines. We’ve never lived in such peaceful times.

The world is not falling apart. The kinds of violence to which most people are vulnerable—homicide, rape, battering, child abuse—have been in steady decline in most of the world. Autocracy is giving way to democracy. Wars between states—by far the most destructive of all conflicts—are all but obsolete. The increase in the number and deadliness of civil wars since 2010 is circumscribed, puny in comparison with the decline that preceded it, and unlikely to escalate...

Why is the world always “more dangerous than it has ever been”—even as a greater and greater majority of humanity lives in peace and dies of old age?

Too much of our impression of the world comes from a misleading formula of journalistic narration. Reporters give lavish coverage to gun bursts, explosions, and viral videos, oblivious to how representative they are and apparently innocent of the fact that many were contrived as journalist bait. Then come sound bites from “experts” with vested interests in maximizing the impression of mayhem: generals, politicians, security officials, moral activists. The talking heads on cable news filibuster about the event, desperately hoping to avoid dead air. Newspaper columnists instruct their readers on what emotions to feel.

There is a better way to understand the world. Commentators can brush up their history—not by rummaging through Bartlett’s for a quote from Clausewitz, but by recounting the events of the recent past that put the events of the present in an intelligible context. And they could consult the analyses of quantitative datasets on violence that are now just a few clicks away.

An evidence-based mindset on the state of the world would bring many benefits. It would calibrate our national and international responses to the magnitude of the dangers that face us. It would limit the influence of terrorists, school shooters, decapitation cinematographers, and other violence impresarios. It might even dispel foreboding and embody, again, the hope of the world.

Charts and stats at the link. (Yes, this is about two years old now, but the author, Steven Pinker, gives an annual update on how his thesis is holding up at his website, which also has a very useful FAQ).

 

[theignoramus]

He made white people feel uncomfortable. People like J. Edgar Hoover felt that MLK and Malcolm X would start a race war that whites would lose.

Those bastards cracked down the hardest on Black empowerment movements while they let the Klan commit mass acts of racial terror for a century and only ever stopped them when they started murdering other Whites. The US government and the FBI can never be forgiven for that.

 

[Enzom21]

I didn't say a thing about getting Trump supporters on your side, that's not going to happen. I didn't say a thing about Trump supporters not being bad, they are. I didn't make any comparison between Clinton's and Trump's platforms. But thank you for exemplifying the exact issue we have in trying to have nuanced discussion about reasons the democrats lost on this forum.



Hey look I didn't say that either, I said that doing so is a bad strategy. And we have plenty of examples of it happening. Not everyone, but enough people that it's a problem.

Can you post some of those examples?
White moderates were telling PoC not to call Trump supporters racists, this has been the current argument.
No one has called people who didn't vote for either candidate a racist, that's not true.

 

[EmSeta]

So.. why exactly should black people feel more afraid than usual? Now Trump is horrible in a million ways, but this strikes me as pure fear mongering.

Unless I've missed some policy proposal from the transition team targeting specifically African Americans? I mean there's been talk of expanding stop and frisk, which is a bad idea, but the OP is comparing this to Jim Crowe and SLAVERY for gods sake.

These echo chambers sure are getting louder.

 

[cheezcake]

Can you post some of those examples?
White moderates were telling PoC not to call Trump supporters racists, this has been the current argument.
No one has called people who didn't vote for either candidate a racist, that's not true.

I'm willing to concede that people have called for not calling Trump supporters racist. But you have to be willing to concede this ridiculous assertion.

"No one has called people who didn't vote for either candidate a racist, that's not true."

Of course people have. On this forum so many times. You ask for examples and I might gladly make a post in the morning but honestly I just really don't wanna dig through numerous old GAF threads at midnight for something that should be common knowledge for people who've been following election threads with consistency.

The issue we're taking is that people conflate my argument (which is also the most prevalent argument people were making post election, not the we need to understand Trump supporters nonsense) with "let's coddle racists" at every possible opportunity. There's examples of that in this very thread if you wanna look up just a few posts. There's a real issue with people not treating politics with nuance on this forum and instead going kneejerk as soon as they see something they dont like.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

So.. why exactly should black people feel more afraid than usual? Now Trump is horrible in a million ways, but this strikes me as pure fear mongering.

Unless I've missed some policy proposal from the transition team targeting specifically African Americans? I mean there's been talk of expanding stop and frisk, which is a bad idea, but the OP is comparing this to Jim Crowe and SLAVERY for gods sake.

These echo chambers sure are getting louder.

If you don't care then fine. Don't worry about how we live

 

[EmSeta]

If you don't care then fine. Don't worry about how we live

What? That doesn't even make sense. I'm asking because I care.

 

[Slayven]

So.. why exactly should black people feel more afraid than usual? Now Trump is horrible in a million ways, but this strikes me as pure fear mongering.

Unless I've missed some policy proposal from the transition team targeting specifically African Americans? I mean there's been talk of expanding stop and frisk, which is a bad idea, but the OP is comparing this to Jim Crowe and SLAVERY for gods sake.

These echo chambers sure are getting louder.

trump wants to make stop and frisk nation wide, for one thing

 

[theignoramus]

If you don't care then fine. Don't worry about how we live

Nevermind that Trump's appointed a Southern Confederate to the highest law office of the land, Black folks have nothing to fear because he says so, goddammit.

 

[EmSeta]

trump wants to make stop and frisk nation wide, for one thing

Did you even read my post?

 

[celljean89]

I will also say that people that voted for Trump is racist, or are okay with racism. Trump is a fascist, and if anyone that voted for him supported this movement. There no other way around it.

Sadly I believe that democrat leadership in the rust belt got to reach out to democrats who voted Trump or didn't voted at all. Or focus on some other potential blue states.

I for one am offended and truly see what United States think of me and people like me. But I'm not really shocked, just offended, I know my history and it's a pattern in US.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

What? That doesn't even make sense. I'm asking because I care.

You have a year's worth of his campaign and a month's worth of appointments to see exactly what we're talking about.

 

[Moofers]

Telling Black Americans that they need to have conversations with racists is really just a smug-ass way to get them to shut up and accept their oppression.

Black Lives Matter had the attention of the entire nation. How did the nation respond? By electing the guy that considered them a terrorist organization. We tried to have a discussion to protect the lives of black men and women and we were told they don't matter, and that to claim otherwise amounts to terrorism.

i mean yes but let's be careful, 'the nation' didn't respond. 44% responded. devastating i know, but fully half of this nation is on the right side of history.

Let's also remember hat half the country literally did not cast a vote. Take that how you will, but I see it as people being disenchanted with the choices and not seeing a meaningful difference.

 

[Slayven]

Did you even read my post?

Honestly that should be it, stop and frisk has shown to be unconstitutional numerous times

 

[Chie Satonaka]

Nevermind that Trump's appointed a Southern Confederate to the highest law office of the land, Black folks have nothing to fear because he says so, goddammit.

Right.

We just need to get out of our echo chamber and face reality.

Just make sure that you face reality in a non-threatening, passive manner, lest you get shot.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

the arc of history bends towards fucking violence.

What are you suggesting should happen?

 

[crisdecuba]

I do not believe it's an either / or. You can fight while at the same time being in relationship with people willing to listen and engage in mutual dialogue. No?

 

[EmSeta]

You have a year's worth of his campaign and a month's worth of appointments to see exactly what we're talking about.

Defending Trump is the last thing I want to be associated with, but I just don't believe this kind of hyperbole is helpful or productive.

 

[Not]

However what is new is the internet.

The notion that a black dude in jersey can instantly share their experience of oppression with a Chinese woman in Arizona is ground breaking. I think we take for granted that there are real divisions between people who are referred to as “Latino” or “Asian” or “Arab” or “Black” or "LGBT+", etc. I also think we take for granted that there are real divisions within those groups too.

The Internet is also responsible for making sure people don't have to believe facts anymore.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Defending Trump is the last thing I want to be associated with, but I just don't believe this kind of hyperbole is helpful or productive.

Then fine, keep going about your business.

 

[Frozenprince]

Did you even read my post?

Do you just not understand why someones emboldening people to be racist fucks is bad

 

[pigeon]

This is a ridiculous opinion. Of course great numbers of people would cause hell if concentration camps started opening around them.

Just like they did during World War II

 

[WaffleTaco]

Any cause that advocates violence or makes violence happen when using it as a form of protest is prolonging the suffering compared to a peaceful protest.

 

[BoosterDuck]

What are you suggesting should happen?

It's a good suggestion for minorities to arm themselves right now to protect themselves from empowered bigots.

 

[Lemaitre]

If you look at history, by and large, "progress" only transpires with aims of violence or mass killings.

So yes, I do believe we are due for another mass event of violence/combat. But as someone who identifies as pacifist himself, I won't dare pick up arms. I'd rather flee this country then let it make me into a murderer.

That's just me tho.

 

[Zornack]

You don’t like slavery? Fine we’ll have a civil war.

That's not what happened.

 

[BinaryPork2737]

Right.

We just need to get out of our echo chamber and face reality.

Just make sure that you face reality in a non-threatening, passive manner, lest you get shot.

And then you can still get shot anyway, even if you're lying on the ground with your hands raised in the air.

 

[theignoramus]

Defending Trump is the last thing I want to be associated with, but I just don't believe this kind of hyperbole is helpful or productive.

You cant even bother to empathise with the concerns people have for Jeff Sessions and Steve Bannon, who are you to say what kind of conversations are hyperbolic, helpful, or productive?

 

[WaffleTaco]

If you look at history, by and large, "progress" only transpires with aims of violence or mass killings.

So yes, I do believe we are due for another mass event of violence/combat. But as someone who identifies as pacifist himself, I won't dare pick up arms. I'd rather flee this country then let it make me into a murderer.

That's just me tho.

That's actually not how it works no.

 

[entremet]

Ghandi?

 

[Lemaitre]

What are you suggesting should happen?

Whether people would like to admit it or not Trumps' rise is indicative of a coming violent storm. It's not about whether violence should happen, it's about when.

 

[Kthulhu]

If you look at history, by and large, "progress" only transpires with aims of violence or mass killings.

So yes, I do believe we are due for another mass event of violence/combat. But as someone who identifies as pacifist himself, I won't dare pick up arms. I'd rather flee this country then let it make me into a murderer.

That's just me tho.

Not in recent times. There are plenty of positive things that came about without violence in the last century.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

And then you can still get shot anyway, even if you're lying on the ground with your hands raised in the air.

Yep.

But you know, these aren't issues that are going to be amplified with Trump's words on protesters, police and how he wants to "give them all the power back", or his cabinet appointments.

Nope.

Echo Chambers!

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Look, if you're not one of the groups in the crosshairs, those who are probably don't want to hear patronizing exhortations to calm down.

 

[Htown]

This is a ridiculous opinion. Of course great numbers of people would cause hell if concentration camps started opening around them.

Why?

They have slave plantations around them already, and they don't do shit because they have iron bars and high walls instead of big mansions and rolling cotton fields.

The same shit will happen that always happens. The oppressed will be blamed for their own oppression. Half the country won't even see anything wrong, and the other half will spend their time on making sure the people protesting aren't being too disruptive.

 

[LizardKing]

If anyone ever tells you guns aren't necessary for self protection just point them to this thread.

 

[CornBurrito]

People who benefit from the status quo (even if they find it distasteful) are the ones who reject violence as a solution.

But gee isn't it such a coincidence that gay rights leaped forward after the Stonewall Riots. That the abolition of slavery required a civil war.

People pretend that they believe peaceful protest can work. But they don't even want peaceful protest. They want protest they can ignore. Look at all the people online (even on this website) that talked about how they would gleefully run down a BLM protestor blocking the road because making people late to work is unacceptable.

 

[Maledict]

To be fairl abolition of slavery requiring a war was a uniquely American fucked up thing. I never understood why it was a point of pride for Bartlett in the West Wing that the American civil war was the only time people have gone to war to free slaves. No shit Sherlock, everyone else managed to do it without mirdering each other because people recognised slavery is fucking evil.

 

[WaffleTaco]

People who benefit from the status quo (even if they find it distasteful) are the ones who reject violence as a solution.

But gee isn't it such a coincidence that gay rights leaped forward after the Stonewall Riots. That the abolition of slavery required a civil war.

People pretend that they believe peaceful protest can work. But they don't even want peaceful protest. They want protest they can ignore. Look at all the people online (even on this website) that talked about how they would gleefully run down a BLM protestor blocking the road because making people late to work is unacceptable.

I reject violence as a solution because it does not work in today's world. Peaceful protest is the way forward, without having to get people killed.

 

[Triteon]

Hrmmm

There definitely was witch hunting involved, but I want to say it was mainly the working class getting fed up with being poor while the rich were comfortable.

The is an incredible oversimplification. The damn thing started with mostly rich people trying to establish a more modern tax and legal structure because France was broke and then everything snowballed like a mother fucker and many terrible consequences followed, see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drownings_at_Nantes

There are parallels to modern issues to be sure, but when you point to the French Revolution what you see, really, is that you never know what's gonna happen. You start out at tennis courts yelling about giving a very certain subset of people a voice and end up living under Napoleon.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

The election of Donald Trump is a cutural/white riot. Only it seeks to to undo/burn cinstitutional protections, the economy, the environment...and the list goes on

 

[Jonogunn]

Maybe another civil war in America is the solution...

 

[Principate]

Was the French Revolution really a good example to use, though? Maybe I'm forgetting history but I thought it involved some serious witchhunting.

The French revolution made progress but the more historically recent aftermath of was the installation of a dictator (Napoleon) humans are creatures of habit. A large amount of "revolutions" up swapping one form of opression for a slightly different form of it. The simply isn't as sunshine and rises for it to really go away any time soon even after drastic measures.

 

[dave is ok]

the arc of history bends towards fucking violence.

And that children is why we need to arm ourselves. Our fight is never over, we must be vigilant and protect one another in these times of turmoil and hate.

Sometimes words alone aren't enough. It's clear now that the white establishment isn't going to relinquish control willingly.

Maybe another civil war in America is the solution...

Sometimes this forum is embarrassingly militant.

Trump is going to be a shitty president, that's all. No concentration camps. No civil wars. Calm down