Dream-Knife
Banned
My post was a joke.50 = 1/2 of 100... makes perfect sense, why is NTSC 60hz tho
I was going to say ms, but that's 1000. Our units of time make no sense I guess.
I was going to say ms, but that's 1000. Our units of time make no sense I guess.
01011001
Banned
my question is for real tho... why 60hz? makes zero sense if you think about it
50 doesn't either really, 48hz would have made sense or 72hz... everything else doesn't, really weird
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Dream-Knife
Banned
It probably has something to do with our electricity.my question is for real tho... why 60hz? makes zero sense if you think about it
WitchHunter
Banned
And Nvidia is trumpeting up this tech now for hard dollars... lol
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Noboru Wataya
Banned
Sonic the hedgehogs OST sounds better at 50hz.. facts.
that's about all that was better about those days
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SenkiDala
Member
Yeah I remember that... On the SNES I was starting to play games so I didn't really realize that, and it was ok for the games I played (DKC1/2/3, Secret of Mana, Zelda, Mario All Stars, not really fast paced games...). Then from the PS1 I started to play 70% of my games in US versions (Resident Evil, Silent Hill, JRPGs, fighting games, etc) and then I got the Dreamcast where most of games even EU games had a 60hz option... And...
The PS2 arrived. 50hz on PS2 made me hate the system. It was very easy to put a chip/action replay to a PS1 to play imported games, on DC didn't need that, on PS2 it tooks many years and was SO expensive to put a chip in it (like 150€/$), so I didn't do it. And 50hz ruined Devil May Cry to me and god how FFX was awful and slow, I felt I was playing in slowmo, until today I keep an awful memory of the PS2 because of this. 99% DC/Xbox had a 60hz option, most of NGC games too, but for the first 3/4 years of the PS2 just like 10% of the games had that option... Fuck the EU PS2.
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01011001
Banned
it does in part I guess, but there were 75hz PC monitors for example. it's weird that neither PAL nor NTSC tried to get to a refresh rate that works well with movies
Shut0wen
Banned
I remember my dad telling me how much of a bitch it was and your best bet back then was to get a Japanese console, back then he said it never bothered him that games were in japanese (he never really played rpgs) and playing mario 64 not knowing what start you had to collect made the game way longer then it should have lmao
Dream-Knife
Banned
Japanese N64 could play NA games if you swapped the back of the cartridge, and vice versa.
Due to the mains standard in the country, the refresh rate had to match the mains cycle rate otherwise it caused issues when fluorescent lights were used. It was an issue with early TV cameras.my question is for real tho... why 60hz? makes zero sense if you think about it
That said, you can get NTSC resolution PAL (PAL-M) that was used in Brazil which lets you benefit from PAL colour encoding, important for broadcast TV.
Fess
Member
You could run 60hz games with a converter in PAL lands though. I never saw any light issues, looked great but more pixelated, and iirc you had to connect with Scart or the picture was black and white.
I find the whole thing odd to be honest. Wasn't it 49.996hz or something like that as well instead of flat 50hz?
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Remember when Europe had to wait years for localizations? I think the best example of this was Super Mario Bros 3. A game with little to no text took three years to reach European market.
It would be a lot of time for a RPG, but it is a fucking platformer
I was around back then and I remembering being very upset how Nintendo didnt give a fuck.
Why was it tough? I played most of the Nintendo Family Computer games in Japanese, and I didn't understand a thing only memorized how words/lines look. Games were simple and you can easily manage.
Finished Captain Tsubasa several times.
Goal III
Continued the trend with Winning Eleven for several years, as most people didn't like how PES plays vs the Japanese version.
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It's actually one of the reasons that people loved Japanese products here, along with their known durability in cars and other stuff. Cartoons as well were mostly Japanese (localized though) through TV. In someway Japanese had gaming and cartoons, Americans had movies. I think the trend is still somehow existing.
Because it was released later … duhhhh
supernova8
Banned
I honestly didn't know what refresh rates were until I was a teenager. Still not sure I understand why the refresh rates were different though.
They would play in black and white and the image would roll
The good thing of being European was you had RGB tvs since '80. I remember my old Mivar my parents bought in 1985, I used it until 2008 with the Wii with the RGB cable.
Everything else was shit though. I never bother of 50/60hz, untill that miserable day when I realized I wasn't that good at Tekken 2 because I always played the slow motion version. I also remember the infamous PAL version of SEGA Touring Car, 20 unstable frames, the nightmare.
Everything else was shit though. I never bother of 50/60hz, untill that miserable day when I realized I wasn't that good at Tekken 2 because I always played the slow motion version. I also remember the infamous PAL version of SEGA Touring Car, 20 unstable frames, the nightmare.
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NiiloPielinen
Member
On consoles sure. On home computers it was awesome. Thanks to shareware / piracy you didn't have to wait for any releases. Someone always had friend of a friend with a relative who had internet connection (or to be precise, modem connection to some BBS) and you had steady supply of games
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
Europe got Super Mario Bros 3 in 1991.
19 fucking 91.
Nintendo distribution was generally bad in Europe, absolutely disastrous in Italy where the SNES arrived at the end of 1992, a full year behind basically the rest of the world.
JRPGs were almost unknown. Dragon Quest was never distributed in Europe 'til DQ8, and Final Fantasy first landed in Europe with FF7. JRPGs started appearing on Nintendo consoles in Europe around 1992-93 (I had FF Adventure on the GB and Secret of Mana on the SNES), but they were very few and far between. For inexplicable reasons Europe got Terranigma, but nobody knew it existed anyway.
Almost everything was unoptimized 50Hz. So yeah, nice picture, but slow and with slow music (took me years to get used to NTSC Mega Man 2 music, it just felt so fast when I finally had access to emulation). Slower/unoptimized versions of games for Europe were a thing way into the 7th gen thanks to Nintendo's VC and Sony's downloadable games for PS3.
For some countries, English was the only option in console games until the PS1 era. Home computer users had it better, as a lot of games (notably, the Lucasarts adventures) enjoyed average-to-good translations even in Italian.
19 fucking 91.
Nintendo distribution was generally bad in Europe, absolutely disastrous in Italy where the SNES arrived at the end of 1992, a full year behind basically the rest of the world.
JRPGs were almost unknown. Dragon Quest was never distributed in Europe 'til DQ8, and Final Fantasy first landed in Europe with FF7. JRPGs started appearing on Nintendo consoles in Europe around 1992-93 (I had FF Adventure on the GB and Secret of Mana on the SNES), but they were very few and far between. For inexplicable reasons Europe got Terranigma, but nobody knew it existed anyway.
Almost everything was unoptimized 50Hz. So yeah, nice picture, but slow and with slow music (took me years to get used to NTSC Mega Man 2 music, it just felt so fast when I finally had access to emulation). Slower/unoptimized versions of games for Europe were a thing way into the 7th gen thanks to Nintendo's VC and Sony's downloadable games for PS3.
For some countries, English was the only option in console games until the PS1 era. Home computer users had it better, as a lot of games (notably, the Lucasarts adventures) enjoyed average-to-good translations even in Italian.
Dr. Suchong
Member
"Super Mario on the Snesthh.."
Violet Berlins odd lisp was harsh on the ears.
I remember when I discovered how to hack a PS2 with swap magic and had access to Streeet Fighter 3 Thrid Strike and Suikoden 3 for the first time as those games didn't release in the UK. Also being able to play a RPG without waiting years for a localisation. And having access to 60hz with no black borders it made me see the light.
Back in PS1 and SNES days I was too young to care, I didn't even realise we got gimped slow motion 50Hz games with black borders. I didn't realise games were out in America way before as I only knew a game existed when I seen them in the shops. I didn't even know Chrono Trigger existed back then as it never came out in the UK.
Edit:
Te earliest import I had actually was Pokémon Silver, my friend's sister bought it when she was on holiday in America. I was the popular kid as I had access to a Pokémon game that has never released yet and seeing all the new Pokémon that everyone else new about only 151.
Back in PS1 and SNES days I was too young to care, I didn't even realise we got gimped slow motion 50Hz games with black borders. I didn't realise games were out in America way before as I only knew a game existed when I seen them in the shops. I didn't even know Chrono Trigger existed back then as it never came out in the UK.
Edit:
Te earliest import I had actually was Pokémon Silver, my friend's sister bought it when she was on holiday in America. I was the popular kid as I had access to a Pokémon game that has never released yet and seeing all the new Pokémon that everyone else new about only 151.
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Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
This topic makes me worry about how the entire history of videogames and videogaming in Europe could end up forgotten, replaced by a version that simply parrots the American experience and makes it seem like a global truth.
Things did start to converge in the 90's, but what came before had a profound impact going forwards. Its an important period that's sadly rarely talked about, I think because it belongs not just to a pre-internet time, but more specifically because it was a pre-corporate time. The interesting stuff about the C64 and the Amiga for example was mostly done at a grass-roots level.
It was achieved not because of Commodore's corporate will, but in spite of it!
Things did start to converge in the 90's, but what came before had a profound impact going forwards. Its an important period that's sadly rarely talked about, I think because it belongs not just to a pre-internet time, but more specifically because it was a pre-corporate time. The interesting stuff about the C64 and the Amiga for example was mostly done at a grass-roots level.
It was achieved not because of Commodore's corporate will, but in spite of it!
nush
Member
it was rushed to launch unfinished, the JPN version is (a little) better as it had more dev time. Same as Daytona CCE, compare the PAL version to the JNP version and it makes the PAL version look like a beta version.
nush
Member
DonkeyPunchJr
World’s Biggest Weeb
That seems like it would cause problems of it's own. Running a 24fps movie at 25fps and inserting an extra frame would mean that the action is slightly sped up and you'd get judder once per second with the extra frame, no?
I've never watched a film on a PAL TV so I'm not sure how noticeable this would be.
01011001
Banned
It's been going that way since the early 2000's
I honestly think we Germans have a hand in that too.
Germany was the odd one out in the 8/16 bit wars, because in germany (among the biggest markets in europe) Nintendo massively outsold Sega, and even the Amiga left the MegaDrive in the dust.
the SNES sold almost twice as many units as the MegaDrive and the Amiga wasn't far behind if I remember the numbers correctly.
so part of the narrative that Nintendo was more popular in Europe comes from us Germans I guess, since it was definitely true from our experience.
the first time I ever saw a Master System in the flesh for example was in the early 2000s, no store where I grew up even sold the damn thing from what I remember.
Commodore and Nintendo dominated the German market
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justiceiro
Marlboro: Other M
But isn't commodore, amiga and many of the console makers at the time from Europe?
01011001
Banned
nope, Commodore was an American company. they were super popular in Europe so that market was their focus but, nope, American company
Fess
Member
It's even worse with the 1970s.
But the 80s are safe, for now, there are still many of us oldies left that will correct misinformation from that era.
The C64 era is so cool, people sat at home coding games, gave birth to lots of studios that are still around in some way or form. I know DICE, or Digital Illusion, have roots from the C64 demo scene. Housemarque have roots from that era too. All started as hobby coders.
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Bakkus
Member
Omg, this! I've gotten help with that because I know people in the US, so I can ship various retro games to them for them to take it with them when they come to Norway, or if some I know visit the US. But then came Covid....
this always seems to surprise europeans, but the commodore 64 was actually very successful in the US as well. The amiga on the other hand struggled to find it's place (largely because commodore wanted it to be a serious business machine , a market completely dominated by pcs , were as the European branched embraced gaming)
The 50 and 60 hz power has to do with efficiency of early electrical generators , different designs ran best at those frequencies, since electricity predated cinema and especially video broadcast , they weren't even part of the equationmy question is for real tho... why 60hz? makes zero sense if you think about it
Dr. Suchong
Member
They were shit too. I lost my U.S Chrono Trigger save a few times due to dodgy converters.
Dr. Suchong
Member
Switched my Saturn and bagged a U.S N64
Playing the Japanese version of F-Zero X (With that sublime Box art) and Radiant Silvergun was something special.
Just couldn't afford many subsequent releases.
Went to Cex in London to secure Xmen vs SF with the Ram cart. Well over £100.
I remember Richard leadbetter recommending the switch for Saturn to grab stuff like Grandia, Xmen vs SF, Metal slug, Kof. etc etc.
Think he said because Sega didn't have pockets deep enough to bring them to Europe or something, but I'm sure there's a hell of a lot more to it.
Import scene was thriving in the mid nineties, and for a good reason.
Playing the Japanese version of F-Zero X (With that sublime Box art) and Radiant Silvergun was something special.
Just couldn't afford many subsequent releases.
Went to Cex in London to secure Xmen vs SF with the Ram cart. Well over £100.
I remember Richard leadbetter recommending the switch for Saturn to grab stuff like Grandia, Xmen vs SF, Metal slug, Kof. etc etc.
Think he said because Sega didn't have pockets deep enough to bring them to Europe or something, but I'm sure there's a hell of a lot more to it.
Import scene was thriving in the mid nineties, and for a good reason.
cireza
Member
KoF95 made it to Europe with the ROM cartridge. It did not make it to the US. SEGA Europe support was fantastic really.
Grandia was not picked for translation and this was a huge mistake by SEGA US who did not want many RPGs back then.
The game has been translated by fans and can be played now. So at least this was somehow fixed. Same for many other games by the way.
SkylineRKR
Member
PS2 generation made it slightly more bearable but still shit. Quite a bit of Dreamcast games came out within a reasonable window, and supported 60hz. PS2 games did to lesser extent, but there were still huge gaps between FF releases and the PAL versions were awful.
I've dealt with it during the 16-bit era. It wasn't a big deal to me yet. Actually, around 1993 magazines did place ads endorsing to mod your system for more speed and more screen. I thought it was gibberish. But when I had the original Playstation I started to take note. I modded that console and imported ever since. I also imported my PS2. And the OG Xbox was fine in PAL, I perhaps encountered like 2 or 3 games that weren't 60hz.
With the 360 release and HD gaming in general, PAL was finally history.
I've dealt with it during the 16-bit era. It wasn't a big deal to me yet. Actually, around 1993 magazines did place ads endorsing to mod your system for more speed and more screen. I thought it was gibberish. But when I had the original Playstation I started to take note. I modded that console and imported ever since. I also imported my PS2. And the OG Xbox was fine in PAL, I perhaps encountered like 2 or 3 games that weren't 60hz.
With the 360 release and HD gaming in general, PAL was finally history.
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Dr. Suchong
Member
Yeah I picked up 95, I meant the subsequent ones.
Played the inferior PlayStation version of Grandia years later.
I know of the fan translations but easily befuddled on how to go about the process of playing them.
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
Yeah. My father used to buy VHSs in the US. I remember those NTSC images looking... odd on our PAL TV, and when I went to the US myself in the 90s, the difference was clear. The Euro image looked somehow fuller and crisper compared to the noisier NTSC image. It's hard to explain if you never saw this on a CRT TV.
cireza
Member
It has become very easy. Nowadays you can find a cartridge that :
- removes the region locking of the console
- act as a memory card or as 1 MB cart or as 4 MB cart (with a switch on top)
- plays backup CDs
So it basically does everything with one convenient cart. You simply have to patch your Grandia game yourself, burn the translated images and that's it.
Meanwhile all 3D Fighters made by SEGA were PAL optimized in speed and resolution.
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Dr. Suchong
Member
You had me up to the convenient cart part.
Patching Grandia and burning translated images not so much.
I think you're overestimating my technical prowess
I don't expect you to explain, but thank you, I'll investigate when I have the time
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
The horror.... the horror.....
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
This. A thousand times this.Fuck the EU PS2.
I understand that it sounds crazy, but if you had a PAL PS2 and happened to know about the 50/60Hz thing and if you ever saw the two side by side... you'd hate your memories of the console, too. DMC was an absolute travesty.
Some of this applies to the N64 too. Seeing the NTSC version of Super Mario 64 or Mario Kart 64 running after having experienced the PAL version made you feel like you'd been cheated on.
Fess
Member
Yup. I remember there was a website 100% focused on showing the differences, could've been DF, side by side comparisons and zoom and all.
Dreamcast was so far ahead at the launch in this area that PS2 felt like a huge downgrade even though it was hyped to stomp the DC.