Bernie can win in 2016
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SolicitorPirate
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As an Australian who enjoys observing American politics, I've found the fervent Sanders support to be disquieting without being able to identity why.
I think this thread has finally cleared up the reason for me. A lot of Sanders support seem to be predicated on the expectation that democratic socialism is the easy answer to any and all problems. The nebulously defined Big Business is the source of nearly all ills, and a socialist in the Executive will defeat this wretched foe and bring happiness for all.
Similarly, all his weaknesses, real and perceived are brushed aside either as unimportant or also being solved by socialism. His historical inability to connect with minorities is simply ignored, with supporters insisting that his economic policies will automatically be completely beneficial to minorities.
Everything just feels like a weird fever pitch. People have identified a couple of easily perceived Bad Guys and think Bernie, the Chosen Hero and his Sword of Socialism will go forth and slay the dragon. We like talking about the fantasy land Trump supporters are in, but I feel Sanders supporters are setting themselves up for disappointment even if he becomes President.
I think this thread has finally cleared up the reason for me. A lot of Sanders support seem to be predicated on the expectation that democratic socialism is the easy answer to any and all problems. The nebulously defined Big Business is the source of nearly all ills, and a socialist in the Executive will defeat this wretched foe and bring happiness for all.
Similarly, all his weaknesses, real and perceived are brushed aside either as unimportant or also being solved by socialism. His historical inability to connect with minorities is simply ignored, with supporters insisting that his economic policies will automatically be completely beneficial to minorities.
Everything just feels like a weird fever pitch. People have identified a couple of easily perceived Bad Guys and think Bernie, the Chosen Hero and his Sword of Socialism will go forth and slay the dragon. We like talking about the fantasy land Trump supporters are in, but I feel Sanders supporters are setting themselves up for disappointment even if he becomes President.
rokkerkory
Member
he will win
I think it can happen, OP. Nobody would have thought that we would see Trump last to this point. Bernie is already leading in some polls, including Iowa. I got myself registered as a democrat to vote in the caucus in Colorado. I'm voting for Bernie, he's really the only candidate I can trust.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Sometimes it feels like people think socialism is going to end unemployment, economic downturns, and inequality. All those things still exist within socialism.
Jelly Rajah
Banned
It does seem to me that a significant amount of Bernie supporters believe that once Bernie is in office, everything will magically get better.
The real world doesn't work like that.
The real world doesn't work like that.
Wanting the government to take over key aspects like health care, education, prisons etc instead of for profit corporation is something only big bad socialists can think of. There are countless examples of such radical experiments and you cannot find a single nation on the face of the planet that provides these things that isn't completely bankrupt.
I'm I doing this right guys?
I'm I doing this right guys?
ThisGuy
Member
Lol, generalizations are easy when you're targeting one or two people.
Jelly Rajah
Banned
Hence why I said a significant amount and not all of his supporters.
The fact of the matter is that many who belong to Bernie's voting base are very young and painfully unaware of the intricacies of the political game. It's not as simple as throwing money at and voting for one man.
Battersea Power Station
Member
There's a lot of projection going into this. I think you have to take Occam's Razor at this point: in an era of corporate interests controlling politics and cynical, sardonic politicians who rarely feel like they represent their own views or those of their constituents but instead the opinions of backers and lobbyists, it's refreshing to find someone who is passionate and animated about something anyone can tell he honestly believes.
You don't have to psychoanalyze his supporters (and, honestly, with him having over 40% of Democrats nationally now, it's a fools errand to do so; there's too much diversity for you to say "well I'm smarter than all these guys and they are just deluded," even if some small percent of them are). Regardless of the PoliGAF wisdom, people are humans, and we can't be expected to vote for the most logical choice all the time. Sometimes -- most of the time -- we need to form an emotional connection. That's why the GOP have been so successful in establishing their national agenda over the past few decades -- they understand the importance of an emotional connection. And hopefully the Sanders campaign understands that and continues to use his passion and honesty as an advantage.
As for policy, he has the best chance to defend the middle class, which has gotten screwed over royally. I'm not sure if that actually comes across in his messaging or if it plays a part in the support he has, but it's something the country needs.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
Yup.
Lets forget about the Bernie supporters on this very forum who would support Hillary in the general and focus on the few who would sit at home if Bernie doesn't get the nom.
Talk about cherry picking.
Battersea Power Station
Member
Honestly, when you post something this condescending, you have to back it up with some empirical data. Can you point to anything other than an isolated anecdote that shows this?
I don't understand how Bernie won't be able to deal with the attack ads, if he makes it through to the GE he would have made it through an increasing number of attacks from the Hillary Campaign.
It appears Hillary surrounded herself with the wrong people and once again is making the same type of mistakes that are underlining why she lost time around. It's what I originally said back when Bernie started to pick up steam - there are very serious problems with Hillary as a candidate, much greater than the vices Sanders is perceived to have.
Chelsea Clinton said:
It appears Hillary surrounded herself with the wrong people and once again is making the same type of mistakes that are underlining why she lost time around. It's what I originally said back when Bernie started to pick up steam - there are very serious problems with Hillary as a candidate, much greater than the vices Sanders is perceived to have.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
This Dem primary looks like a delightful tea party compared to what the GOP side is doing. Bernie has not faced anything like what guys like Trump and Cruz throw. Neither has Clinton for that matter, except from the Republicans who are looking at her as a threat in the general.
Are you serious?
Are you serious?
Hillary is the fakest the person I've ever seen. Her and Bernie might be similar on "stances" but they couldn't be more different. Her campaign is paid by big banks and media conglomerates. I don't believe for a second she's going to do anything she says.
Bernie will have an uphill battle too, but I feel like the public voting for someone so anti-establishment is a good sign for the future, that THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, and especially young people, will demand change.
Trump is insane but like Bernie him even having a chance is a good sign that people are feed up with these pre-pressed politicians who keep saying the same shit and doing the same nothing.
First of all I'd like to refrain from comparing the Dem primary to the circus.
Secondarily I'd classify the type of fear mongering that Clinton campaign has started to generate in the last two days just a taste of things to come.
Jelly Rajah
Banned
How about the fact that both the House of Representatives and the Senate have a Republican majority, making it virtually impossible for Bernie to put any of his ideas into practice, even in the unlikely event that he's elected?
Or how about the fact that he has consistently voted against increasing funding for NASA?
In any case, the point I was trying to make isn't one that can be proved with empirical data. People tend to ignore the big picture and focus only on things that support their claims when they really want something to happen.
TheLaughingStock
Member
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/your-brain-is-primed-to-reach-false-conclusions/
Above post is classic example of how we all struggle. Bernie is unlikely to win that aside.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
The same can be said about Hillary if she got elected but somehow this only applies to Bernie.
I hope they're actually listening to him. The man himself says he's not going to be able to do it himself. People have to be constantly out their and push for change even after voting. And significant change isn't going to happen in one presidential term. We can't expect a benevolent dictator to solve our problems.
UltimaPooh
Member
Jelly Rajah
Banned
I'm in one-hundred percent agreement with you.
It's unfortunate that this fervor for positive change occurs so sporadically and seems to die down after the election season.
Republicans will almost certainly be more willing to compromise with Hillary than with Bernie.
Battersea Power Station
Member
If the implication is that the the Presidency is irrelevant, I understand that sentiment, but it is untrue. Even Obama, who has faced opposition that is unlikely to ever be faced again for the foreseeable future, managed to get laws passed (not counting the AHA) and begin initiatives. The President has the power go lead the national conversation and start movements that wind up as laws. He also serves as his party's leader when it comes time to negotiate big pieces of legislature. He's got a lot of chips. And that's not to mention Supreme Court noms and executive actions.
That sucks. I don't see how that's related to his supporters thinking he's magical.
If you can't illustrate your point, I'm going to assume it's untrue. Saying that Sanders' supporters think he's going to solve all their problems is akin to me saying "Ted Cruz voters smelly like doody!" It's just an insult based on nothing except what your one friend said in a post on Facebook.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
Republicans hate Hillary with a passion and it's not only because she is their greatest threat when it comes to the White House.
They genuinely despise the woman to the core.
UltimaPooh
Member
What gives you that idea?
Compromise does not really mean in the end they made a deal.
Would you call the affordable healthcare act a compromise from where it started?
I would say it was gutted, and gutted, and gutted some more... and people are still trying to get rid of it and gut it despite it working.
It's laughable that anyone thinks that any Democrat can work with the Republicans... because the Repubs have shown time, and time, and time again they refuse to do such things.
Yes, they are just waiting for the coronation for a new era of unprecedented bipartisanship.
I'm sure they'd see eye to eye on Syria and Iran, not much else.
What. The. Fuck. Why didn't anyone tell me?!?!?!? :/
Aaronology
Member
This election is far more about the USSC than the next Presidential term. It is, in fact, too important to lose. "Hey at least we made some noise, tho!" won't mean shit in the face of conservative justices being seated for life terms. For me it isn't about who is more honest between the two, who is more beholden to WallStreet, or what they promise to do when elected. Neither will be getting much anything past Congress and Presidents aren't dictators. The only thing that matters to me is elect-ability. I don't care how much Sanders' politics resonates with me ideologically, how much I like the guy, how righteous his cause is, or that flowers sprout behind his footsteps and doves fly overhead whenever he gives a speech. The bottom line is simple: I do not have confidence (yet) in his long term viability. I'm not straight and I'm not white but I am extremely cynical thanks to the last half decade in the US. You want me to have faith in my fellow countrymen to elect someone like him, through the hailstorm of attacks he'll endure once nominated, when Americans are giving a person like Donald goddamn Trump the time of day? I refuse to underestimate the power of fear mongering and racism in this country right now.
I've donated to both Clinton and Sanders and I will vote for whoever wins the primary. But the moment I believe Sanders has a legitimate, actual shot at becoming the POTUS is the moment he has my vocal support.
Interfectum
Member
Err no. Republicans hate Hilary almost as much as they hate Obama. Anyone who breaks ranks and compromises with her is fucked politically.
Aaron Strife
Banned
I think the idea is that Hillary is more likely to get things done with Congress, although that might not always be something we want.
I don't think Bernie's grandiose ideas would even pass in a Democratic Congress - those bills would look a lot more similar to what Hillary's actually proposing. Small steps, like Obamacare.
I think if Hillary got elected - with a Dem Senate and GOP Congress - there would be some token effort to pass like immigration reform or something, but it's a tossup whether it would actually pass and that would probably be it.
Dude Abides
Banned
Probably not.
Democrats will probably be more willing to work with Hillary, though, since, among other things, she actually is one.
cj_iwakura
Member
Well considering the alternatives of things getting disastrously worse...
StickSoldier
Member
I need a break down of Bernie and Clinton. I've really got hooked on Bernie after watching some of his videos, but I'm pretty dense when it comes to politics. I feel like I shouldn't vote, because I just don't have the knowledge to make a scholarly pick, but I will choose either democrat for the candidacy over ANY of those asshat republicans.
Allriggghtttt bro! Thanks for the quick ass response. Going to check it out right now
Allriggghtttt bro! Thanks for the quick ass response. Going to check it out right now
VendettaRed07
Member
Hillary won't be able to work with republicans more than Bernie would as the current congress has shown nothing productive is getting done as long as it's part of the Democratic agenda
But I think Hillary is a better two term prospect than Bernie. First term there will be gridlock no matter what, but the gridlock will hurt Bernie more. He's an outsider with little resources or endorsements with big promises. If he doesn't deliver people will get tired of him and turn on him fast. The millions of working class people who have made his campaign a success will not fight as hard for him four years down the road as they are now of after one term there's really nothing to show for all the effort.
Septimus Prime
Member
At least he'll try to effect these changes. I'm not fully convinced any other candidates will.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
If he fails, his supporters will turn on him just like they turned on Obama. He will become a shill, a sellout, a filthy moderate for trying to compromise just to get anything done. Let's stop acting like far left ideologues are somehow reasonable or aware of the political process any more than far right counterparts.
It's like Republicans who think they can vote in Cruz or Trump and stop all the immigrants and whatever other fantasies they have. The only difference there is they'd have complete dominance in all levels of government and numerous Supreme Court justices to replace.
StickSoldier
Member
Word, I got 96% on both Bernie and Clinton for the answers I gave.. So I can't argue with that I suppose.
Bernie can win. He needs to win.
The Berning is just getting started
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3TNkJSPDm8
The Berning is just getting started
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3TNkJSPDm8
Septimus Prime
Member
Given the composition of the current Congress, the far right actually have a much higher chance of pushing through nonsense should they win, compared to either Bernie or Hillary. But that doesn't mean it's reasonable to vote for them, does it?
which is why midterms are more important.
i hope peoples passion remains after the election. republicans have too many fringe/proxy groups and initiatives to stay riled up for.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Isn't Young Turks basically a joke site? I was under the impression that it's the liberal equivalent to places like Breitbart.
Bernie's definitely inspired me to vote and continue voting in the midterms. I've also tried to inspire people to vote in general and try to stress how important is it to vote in the midterms as well.
At least I know it won't get better with Hillary, the sockpuppet of Wall Street. With Sanders we'd actually have the first decent President in... well, a depressingly long time.
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