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[Melkezadek]

Conservatives are trying to kill healthcare? You mean the insurance companies? Sign me up! Oh wait, you mean conservatives want to kill Obamacare? That service that not only is too expensive for the overwhelming MAJORITY of my community of being able to afford, but whose existence has allowed insurance companies to jack the prices of their rates up year over year.

I have a close family friend who signed up for Obamacare day fucking 1 (when the site wasn't fucked). Got health insurance, yay! First time IN THEIR ADULT LIFE that they had coverage. Now the rates are going up, they've been diagnosed with a terminal disease (which isn't Obamacare's fault, fyi), BUT here's the kicker - their Obamacare coverage won't provide the services, medicine or treatment that they need to just have a 'livable' quality of life. Between the ever-increasing insurance bill they now have to pay, and the absolutely tanked quality of life that wouldn't be endured if they had proper treatment which they can't get, its not wonder this person has told me they'd rather be dead.

Thats some QUALITY health coverage we got. I really should vote for someone who wants to maintain that at all costs.

Yea, because leaving over 3 million Americans uninsured is the way to go about it. Thanks to Obamacare I can actually afford medicine. Same as for my mother. I can actually go to the doctor. Not it isn't perfect, but tossing it out, as the GOP wants to do, isn't a a viable option.

 

[kingslunk]

The senate will be approving justices though, they won't just let it be 8 justices for the next 4 years.

Yeah but if it's a dem majority they're not going to approve a right wing extremist just to get 9. Just won't happen.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

She voted in favor of the invasion of Iraq.

She voted for it as a bargaining chip, which she makes clear in her statement when making the vote. It was still a shitty vote, but let's not misrepresent it.

I said she probably wouldn't go in preemptively. Which I don't think she would have.

 

[Josh5890]

It's not that black and white. The justices have to be approved by the senate still. Getting the senate majority is probably equally important.

There is a checks and balances system in place.

Whatever Democrats want to do they better get started early. There are 24 Dem Senators up for reelection in 2018 as opposed to 8 Republicans so they have far more to lose. Even if the Democrats get a majority in the Senate come November that will be vulnerable in two years.

 

[Jonm1010]

Conservatives are trying to kill healthcare? You mean the insurance companies? Sign me up! Oh wait, you mean conservatives want to kill Obamacare? That service that not only is too expensive for the overwhelming MAJORITY of my community of being able to afford, but whose existence has allowed insurance companies to jack the prices of their rates up year over year.

I have a close family friend who signed up for Obamacare day fucking 1 (when the site wasn't fucked). Got health insurance, yay! First time IN THEIR ADULT LIFE that they had coverage. Now the rates are going up, they've been diagnosed with a terminal disease (which isn't Obamacare's fault, fyi), BUT here's the kicker - their Obamacare coverage won't provide the services, medicine or treatment that they need to just have a 'livable' quality of life. Between the ever-increasing insurance bill they now have to pay, and the absolutely tanked quality of life that wouldn't be endured if they had proper treatment which they can't get, its no wonder this person has told me they'd rather be dead.

Thats some QUALITY health coverage we got. I really should vote for someone who wants to maintain that at all costs.

I have not once suggested that having a Republican President would be the same as having a Democratic President when it comes to matters of policy & such. What I have said is that for what I care about most, which is people who come from similar backgrounds to me, that either candidate will do fuck all for us, cause their parties have done fuck all for us in the past. President Clinton himself signed policy in the name of the war on drugs that increased prison sentences for me & my mine, gave leeway to banks to screw us over, and now you want me to elect his wife whom shares many of his views? And you don't see why I can't bring myself to go down this road?

Do you know what existed prior to Obamacare? A lower ceiling for medicaid, denial for pre-existing conditions, no subsidies, a collapsing market, millions more uninsured, millions more on top of that under-insured, and cost inflation that was MUCH higher on average then it is today.

Obamacare is not perfect but going back to the old system is not the answer. You are beyond misguided on this one.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Yeah but if it's a dem majority they're not going to approve a right wing extremist just to get 9. Just won't happen.

Except every candidate will be a right wing extremist, so at some point they'll cave. And you're assuming a dem majority, but if Trump wins that likely won't be the case

 

[SneakersSO]

Yea, because leaving over 3 million Americans uninsured is the way to go about it. Thanks to Obamacare I can actually afford medicine. Same as for my mother. I can actually go to the doctor. Not it isn't perfect, but tossing it out, as the GOP wants to do, isn't a a viable option.

I don't want to toss it out; I want a system that fucking works. Is that so much to ask for? Here's the thing - 3 million are insured. My family friend is in that 3 million. He's also being horrendously screwed by said service. But Hey! At least he's insured now, amirite?

Hillary isn't going to change Obamacare. She'll just maintain it, insure it goes nowhere and continues to not really rock the boat, all the while insurance companies use it as a means to continue increasing their rates, so everyone gets screwed.. It needs to be touched up & fixed. She won't be doing that.

Do you know what existed prior to Obamacare? A lower ceiling for medicaid, denial for pre-existing conditions, no subsidies, a collapsing market, millions more uninsured, millions more on top of that under-insured, and cost inflation that was MUCH higher on average then it is today.

Obamacare is not perfect but going back to the old system is not the answer. You are beyond misguided on this one.

I NEVER said I wanted to go back. I said I wanted a better system. See, Obamacare & it being passed has given many Americans the impression that the work that needs to be done in the health care coverage department is over, when that couldn't be further from the truth. I don't want complacency, I want progress. Unfortuantely, the only battles that have been waged since Obamacare passed was insuring it stayed active, not that it would get better.

 

[Melkezadek]

I don't want to toss it out; I want a system that fucking works. Is that so much to ask for? Here's the thing - 3 million are insured. My family friend is in that 3 million. He's also being horrendously screwed by said service. But Hey! At least he's insured now, amirite?

Hillary isn't going to change Obamacare. She'll just maintain it, insure it goes nowhere and continues to not really rock the boat, all the while insurance companies use it as a means to continue increasing their rates, so everyone gets screwed.. It needs to be touched up & fixed. She won't be doing that.

Where are you getting this from? And again, it will either be Trump of Hillary regardless of how you feel about it. Do you want to see 3 million people uninsured? Or do you want to try to fight to make some changes?

 

[Jonm1010]

Why was Bernie brought up?
Like you I 'largely' blame republicans.

doesn't make things awesome. Obama is a corporatist sorry. In many cases siding with GOP against progressive democrats. See TPP. Republicans being far worse doesn't mean I can't criticize Obama.

Credit where due and criticism where do. Want some credit? avoiding war with Iraq. Who the hell knows what a republican president would have done...

When you speak about Obama and Democrats exclusively in saying the divide economically grew over these last 8 years you are ignoring necessary context. That is my issue. Your framing seemed to play the sort of willful ignorance accusation Republicans play when they say "look at the Obama presidency, he got NOTHING done!" "Time for a change."

Obama is not perfect but 6 years of Republican obstructionism is the single largest contributor for why so many issues were left unresolved or barely tackled.

 

[SneakersSO]

Where are you getting this from? And again, it will either be Trump of Hillary regardless of how you feel about it. Do you want to see 3 million people uninsured? Or do you want to try to fight to make some changes?

You think Hillary is going to go in there & affect any meaningful, positive change when it comes to Health care? Outside of insuring Obamacare continues to exist, I have zero doubt she won't raise a finger for its betterment.

 

[Jonm1010]

I NEVER said I wanted to go back. I said I wanted a better system. See, Obamacare & it being passed has given many Americans the impression that the work that needs to be done in the health care coverage department is over, when that couldn't be further from the truth. I don't want complacency, I want progress. Unfortuantely, the only battles that have been waged since Obamacare passed was insuring it stayed active, not that it would get better.

And Trump will not provide that. If anything, he will make it worse for your community(for all communities) and at least with Hillary the worst you get is treading water. Though Hillary is on record supporting improvements like a Public Option and Drug reform. If you think that is valuable to your(our) communities(and it would be) maybe it is time to start re-thinking that protest vote.

Also, maintenance is better then severe regression. Which is a guarantee under Trump.

 

[Melkezadek]

You think Hillary is going to go in there & affect any meaningful, positive change when it comes to Health care? Outside of insuring Obamacare continues to exist, I have zero doubt she won't raise a finger for its betterment.

"I applaud the Supreme Court's decision to affirm what the authors of the Affordable Care Act [Obamacare] clearly intended and wrote into law: that health insurance should be affordable and available in every state across the country...

The Affordable Care Act isn't perfect, but the evidence is clear: it's working. Sixteen million Americans have gained coverage. Millions of young people are able to stay on their parents' plans. Insurance companies can no longer discriminate against people with preexisting conditions or charge women higher rates just because of their gender.

Republicans should stop trying to tear down the law and start working across party lines to build on these successes.

I've fought for the promise of quality, affordable health care for every American for decades. And I'm not going to stop now. Anyone seeking to lead our country should stand up and support this decision"

.

She herself has said it isn't perfect. What reason do you have to believe that she wouldn't take steps to making it better?

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

You think Hillary is going to go in there & affect any meaningful, positive change when it comes to Health care? Outside of insuring Obamacare continues to exist, I have zero doubt she won't raise a finger for its betterment.

Right, I mean after all she pushed for healthcare reform as first lady, I'm sure she ain't gonna do shit.

 

[commedieu]

Conservatives are trying to kill healthcare? You mean the insurance companies? Sign me up! Oh wait, you mean conservatives want to kill Obamacare? That service that not only is too expensive for the overwhelming MAJORITY of my community of being able to afford, but whose existence has allowed insurance companies to jack the prices of their rates up year over year.

I have a close family friend who signed up for Obamacare day fucking 1 (when the site wasn't fucked). Got health insurance, yay! First time IN THEIR ADULT LIFE that they had coverage. Now the rates are going up, they've been diagnosed with a terminal disease (which isn't Obamacare's fault, fyi), BUT here's the kicker - their Obamacare coverage won't provide the services, medicine or treatment that they need to just have a 'livable' quality of life. Between the ever-increasing insurance bill they now have to pay, and the absolutely tanked quality of life that wouldn't be endured if they had proper treatment which they can't get, its not wonder this person has told me they'd rather be dead.

Thats some QUALITY health coverage we got. I really should vote for someone who wants to maintain that at all costs.

I have not once suggested that having a Republican President would be the same as having a Democratic President when it comes to matters of policy & such. What I have said is that for what I care about most, which is people who come from similar backgrounds to me, that either candidate will do fuck all for us, cause their parties have done fuck all for us in the past. President Clinton himself signed policy in the name of the war on drugs that increased prison sentences for me & my mine, gave leeway to banks to screw us over, and now you want me to elect his wife whom shares many of his views? And you don't see why I can't bring myself to go down this road?

Not with your anecdotes no. As my cousin something something too once.

"Policy and such" is what everyone who understands politics is discussing. Which is what you finally addressed with your "I'm not saying it's going to be the same." No shit it isnt. It's going to be categorically worse for you and other minorities with Trump in office. Which is what you and people like you are literally making easier for the man. OUR GOVERNMENT IS CORRUPT. Yes. Save for a public revolution, progress is going to take time.

You're throwing weights into a stinking ship. With delusions that any candidate ever would disabled corporations running our nation. What you care about most, is blinding you from the reality of the adult world. Im black, our vote is always for a lesser evil. You want to talk about status quos. All parties don't give a shit about us, but some at least pretend to and throw some crumbs our way. We know specifically how republicans feel, and specifically what they want to do. They try and try every year to do it.

It is amazingly absurd to believe that the issues you have with this country would have been solved by bernie sanders #1, or any election. Thelse are historic issues that took 100 of years to manifest into what they are today.

As you know corpportarins run the country, so how the hell are you acting so indignant right now about your issues? No vote would ever meet your criteria. Especially knowing that Republicans will actively work to make issues worse for you and your community.


I voted for bernie, but I have no interest in my Muslim friends being monitored, or kicked out of the country. The same with people who want to marry. It's not just about your own personal issues that will definitely be made worse with republicans in office, it's about setting the nation up for a better chance at achieving those goals in generations to come.

Letting the Republicans win this year is going to have long Lasting effects. We are watching marijuana being legalized slowly, which reduces the net of minorities In prison. Which is all pushed back by republicans. Just small things like this all add up, and you're willing to pretend that both trump and Clinton are identical In the damage that will be brought to your doorstep.

Obama care wouldn't be broken, if it wasn't for lobbied republicans. And those are the fucking people you want running the nation.

Just what the hell.

 

[SneakersSO]

And Trump will not provide that. If anything, he will make it worse for your community(for all communities) and at least with Hillary the worst you get is treading water.

Maintenance is better then severe regression.

I don't want maintenance. My community can no longer afford maintenance. They need change. They need a chance to better themselves & their families. Thats what you don't get. I don't want severe regression either - I want a full change to these systems. So i'll be voting for candidates who feel likewise. Simple as that.

In fact, as a lifelong democrat, this conversation has made me FULLY realize not only that the democratic party is no longer for me, but how much i've been taken advantage of. I'm probably going full independent after this election.

 

[Jonm1010]

I don't want maintenance. My community can no longer afford maintenance. They need change. They need a chance to better themselves & their families. Thats what you don't get. I don't want severe regression either - I want a full change to these systems. So i'll be voting for candidates who feel likewise. Simple as that.

In fact, as a lifelong democrat, this conversation has made me FULLY realize not only that the democratic party is no longer for me, but how much i've been taken advantage of. I'm probably going full independent after this election.

So you are voting for Hillary? Who agrees with you. Who can actually win and has a chance to enact progress on that front.

 

[Krowley]

Right, I mean after all she pushed for healthcare reform as first lady, I'm sure she ain't gonna do shit.

One of her main arguments against Bernie during the primary was that he wanted to fight the healthcare battle again, wanted to "tear up" obamacare.

She was basically screaming at the top of her lungs that she was the candidate of the status-quo. "This Bernie guy is a crazy radical who wants to fight republicans and have contentious battles to make change happen. Look at that nut! I'm the safe choice. I won't rock the boat."

Literally, that was the campaign she ran.

 

[Melkezadek]

I don't want maintenance. My community can no longer afford maintenance. They need change. They need a chance to better themselves & their families. Thats what you don't get. I don't want severe regression either - I want a full change to these systems. So i'll be voting for candidates who feel likewise. Simple as that.

In fact, as a lifelong democrat, this conversation has made me FULLY realize not only that the democratic party is no longer for me, but how much i've been taken advantage of. I'm probably going full independent after this election.

So you're not going to address my point at all?
This is why these discussions never go anywhere. People don't want to be convinced. They just want to cross their arms and hold their chin up.

 

[Aaronrules380]

One of her main arguments against Bernie during the primary was that he wanted to fight the healthcare battle again, wanted to "tear up" obamacare.

She was basically screaming at the top of her lungs that she was the candidate of the status-quo. "This Bernie guy is a crazy radical who wants to fight republicans and have contentious battles to make change happen. Look at that nut! I'm the safe choice. I won't rock the boat."

Literally, that was the campaign she ran.

No, she was arguing that it was better to improve upon what we already have, rather than tear everything down and try to start again from nothing

 

[commedieu]

So you're not going to address my point at all?
This is why these discussions never go anywhere. People don't want to be convinced. They just want to cross their arms and hold their chin up.

Pretty much. They are taking a nice stand though, for trump to firmly walk up.

 

[SneakersSO]

So you are voting for Hillary? Who agrees with you. Who can actually win and has a chance to enact progress on that front.

The post below yours sums up how I feel her claims with regards to health care are - she isn't going to do shit, her platform was to maintain it, not change it. A lot of Obamacare needs to be redone, and she has no interest in leading that fight.

 

[soul creator]

No, she was arguing that it was better to improve upon what we already have, rather than tear everything down and try to start again from nothing

That was always the funniest strawman. Like Bernie was gonna go in, push for immediately repealing Obamacare first and foremost, and then dick around for a while as everyone dies from lack of health insurance, before he would try for single-payer.

In addition, Bernie's program was literally called Medicare for All, so "starting again from nothing" never really made any sense either.

 

[Aaronrules380]

The post below yours sums up how I feel her claims with regards to health care are - she isn't going to do shit, her platform was to maintain it, not change it. A lot of Obamacare needs to be redone, and she has no interest in leading that fight.

She literally said she wants to improve it and work on making it better, just that she doesn't want to tear it down and start from absolutely nothing again because that's a losing battle

 

[Jonm1010]

The post below yours sums up how I feel her claims with regards to health care are - she isn't going to do shit, her platform was to maintain it, not change it. A lot of Obamacare needs to be redone, and she has no interest in leading that fight.

Factually untrue:

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/health-care/
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/09/politics/hillary-clinton-health-care-public-option-bernie-sanders/

 

[commedieu]

I don't want maintenance. My community can no longer afford maintenance. They need change. They need a chance to better themselves & their families. Thats what you don't get. I don't want severe regression either - I want a full change to these systems. So i'll be voting for candidates who feel likewise. Simple as that.

In fact, as a lifelong democrat, this conversation has made me FULLY realize not only that the democratic party is no longer for me, but how much i've been taken advantage of. I'm probably going full independent after this election.

But they can wait 8-20+ years though with republicans running the nation...

Edit:

For full disclosure fuck Hillary for a myriad of reasons. But man, the dnc is fucked because a lot of people are filled with misplaced rage that will open the door for making the nation worse for a very long time.

 

[xxracerxx]

The post below yours sums up how I feel her claims with regards to health care are - she isn't going to do shit, her platform was to maintain it, not change it. A lot of Obamacare needs to be redone, and she has no interest in leading that fight.

Holy fuck, her platform is to improve it.

 

[Pendas]

Where are you getting this from? And again, it will either be Trump of Hillary regardless of how you feel about it. Do you want to see 3 million people uninsured? Or do you want to try to fight to make some changes?

And Trump will not provide that. If anything, he will make it worse for your community(for all communities) and at least with Hillary the worst you get is treading water.

Someone posts a very valid reason why he doesn't want to vote for Hillary. And instead of accepting his opinion based on his personal opinion and experiences, this is what your response is.


Sounds Familiar...

You know you have a bad Candidate when the only reason supporters can give to vote for her is "We can't let the other guy win."

 

[Jonm1010]

Someone posts a very valid reason why he doesn't want to vote for Hillary. And instead of accepting his opinion based on his personal opinion and experiences, this is what your response is.


Sounds Familiar...

Clearly his reasons aren't valid as he is showing he is factually wrong. Keep up.

 

[The Technomancer]

Holy fuck, her platform is to improve it.

But its not single payer in 4 years!!

 

[SneakersSO]

So you're not going to address my point at all?
This is why these discussions never go anywhere. People don't want to be convinced. They just want to cross their arms and hold their chin up.

I'm not asking to be convinced. People rarely, if ever, get convinced in online discussions such as these. I was merely presenting my view point when it was asked for.

And yes, crossing arms is exactly what people want to do - many people in this thread are already throwing Bernie or Bust-ers under the bus in the hypothetical case that Trump wins the Presidency. The summation of my feelings on this is I have my own opinions about Clinton that prevents me from voting for her, and as such, I won't be doing so come November, but neither will I be voting for Trump either.

If you guys want Clinton to get elected, go out & vote for her. I'll be voting for someone whom I feel I want to get elected. They don't stand a chance, but i'll be using my vote to make my voice heard.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Lol @ the idea that it's my responsibility to support your candidate (Hillary) because she can't win without me, but you don't have to do the same for mine. And go ahead and say she deserves my support because she "won" the nomination. Denying that her nomination is illegitimate is ignorance of fucking reality.

People will vote for candidates they want to vote for. If Hillary can't win in that scenario then her supporters can take their share of blame for a Trump presidency.

I don't expect anyone to agree with that though, since it seems she has a case of trickle-down cronyism about her that makes her supporters into revisionist bullies like she and her husband are.

 

[SneakersSO]

Clearly his reasons aren't valid as he is showing he is factually wrong. Keep up.

Except I have seen Hillary Clinton's history as a candidate and know that her word isn't very trustworthy. She says her platform is to improve it. Great! I'm just supposed to believe her? Sorry, but I don't. She ain't trust worthy, not in my eyes. She's going to need way, way more than her 'word' to get me to believe her.

 

[Melkezadek]

Someone posts a very valid reason why he doesn't want to vote for Hillary. And instead of accepting his opinion based on his personal opinion and experiences, this is what your response is.


Sounds Familiar...

Isn't a very valid reason if I just pointed to the contrary to his claim.

If you aren't interested in discussion, please stay out of it. Your ringside seating is pointless.

Again, you want people to lay out the points and they are refuted with "Well I don't believe her."

I asked you and you never provided an answer: How do you reason with that?

 

[xxracerxx]

Except I have seen Hillary Clinton's history as a candidate and know that her word isn't very trustworthy. She says her platform is to improve it. Great! I'm just supposed to believe her? Sorry, but I don't. She ain't trust worthy, not in my eyes. She's going to need way, way more than her 'word' to get me to believe her.

You mean like her history of pushing healthcare reforms for the past 20+ years?

 

[SneakersSO]

Isn't a very valid reason if I just pointed to the contrary to his claim.

If you aren't interested in discussion, please stay out of it. Your ringside seating is pointless.

Speak for yourself; I very much welcome said-poster's input in this discussion.

 

[NewFresh]

Lol @ the idea that it's my responsibility to support your candidate (Hillary) because she can't win without me, but you don't have to do the same for mine. And go ahead and say she deserves my support because she "won" the nomination. Denying that her nomination is illegitimate is ignorance of fucking reality.

People will vote for candidates they want to vote for. If Hillary can't win in that scenario then her supporters can take their share of blame for a Trump presidency.

I don't expect anyone to agree with that though, since it seems she has a case of trickle-down cronyism about her that makes her supporters into revisionist bullies like she and her husband are.

Ignorance of reality....

 

[WhateverItTakes]

.
She didn't even offer an olive branch to progressives with her choice of VP.

How is having the 'most progressive platform in democratic history', one that was signed off by Bernie Sanders, the man that mobilised the further left this election season, not enough of an olive branch? Progressives should be happy enough with the country moving in the direction they want, gradually, in which they can push further in later elections.

Meanwhile a VP like Kaine can help attract the Republican voters disillusioned with Trump. This is valuable, and makes more sense then catering to a force that was already catered for in the policy of the candidate, which is arguably the most important point for what should be voted for.

At this point, what else do you want?

I'm also happy to see people bringing up post-Brexit hate crime statistics. Beyond any points of disliking Hillary, a Trump presidency will embolden certain attitudes and ideals that were best left to die with the confederate states. And the best way to prevent Trump is voting Hillary. End of.

 

[yanipheonu]

I wont lie, the Bernie supporters are revealing themselves as incredibly entitled and out of touch with the terrible nature of democracy. Not to mention embarrassing.

Makes me kinda glad he didn't get the candidacy, even though I like him the best out of the prospective candidates.

Yes, often times the candidate you want doesn't get in, and lots of the things the party you most closely identify with will have things you don't like about them.

Congratulations, you now know what it's like to be in a democracy.

 

[Melkezadek]

Speak for yourself; I very much welcome said-poster's input in this discussion.

Except he hasn't given any input at all. Just a cheerleader for your meaningless rebuttals. If he actual wants to engage, then he should engage.

 

[Jonm1010]

I'm not asking to be convinced. People rarely, if ever, get convinced in online discussions such as these. I was merely presenting my view point when it was asked for.

And yes, crossing arms is exactly what people want to do - many people in this thread are already throwing Bernie or Bust-ers under the bus in the hypothetical case that Trump wins the Presidency. The summation of my feelings on this is I have my own opinions about Clinton that prevents me from voting for her, and as such, I won't be doing so come November, but neither will I be voting for Trump either.

If you guys want Clinton to get elected, go out & vote for her. I'll be voting for someone whom I feel I want to get elected. They don't stand a chance, but i'll be using my vote to make my voice heard.

Except it won't be heard. It will be white noise.

No one is even trying to convince you to vote for her anymore, this has pretty much shifted to a discussion between people trying to explain to you actual facts while you are trying to defend a viewpoint built on inaccuracies of fact.

 

[Clefargle]

i don't think they are the same at all. But the fact remains trump will be one term while clinton will likely be 2 terms.

Also if trump could bring some change to fund raising would be a huge win for me. They have to get the big money out!!! The email leak just proves that more.

Also people are right she seems very hawkish. I don't want us in any more wars. I sick and tired of being the police for the world.

Don't care for either one. Both are my last choices.

Why would you assume trump would do away with CU? He is taking donor money now, just like every other politician. Clinton has pledged to stack the SCOTUS with judges to overturn CU. why would you ever think trump would be better in this regard??

 

[Kyzer]

Ehhh there's nothing really wrong with voting third party if that's the candidate they like. I want to stop trump at all costs too but you can't literally think everyone is obligated to go out and vote for Hillary. Third parties typically just help Republicans but hey at least they're voting

 

[EdibleKnife]

Except I have seen Hillary Clinton's history as a candidate and know that her word isn't very trustworthy. She says her platform is to improve it. Great! I'm just supposed to believe her? Sorry, but I don't. She ain't trust worthy, not in my eyes. She's going to need way, way more than her 'word' to get me to believe her.

Isn't this the truth with every candidate? You said you pulled for Bernie and that you'd be pulling for a 3rd party come voting time but you don't actually know these people or their future. The promises every candidate makes are ethereal until they actually get into office and have to deal with the realities of being beholden to them. All we as voters work with is the ideal direction the candidate states they'd like to take the country in. They literally can only give us their word. Why is a 3rd party more trustworthy than Hilary exactly when they're coming from the same playing field?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Except I have seen Hillary Clinton's history as a candidate and know that her word isn't very trustworthy. She says her platform is to improve it. Great! I'm just supposed to believe her? Sorry, but I don't. She ain't trust worthy, not in my eyes. She's going to need way, way more than her 'word' to get me to believe her.

In fairness, isn't this just saying you won't be convinced by any argument anyone makes. Why are you participating if there's no good faith attempt to see another point of view?

 

[Jonm1010]

Except I have seen Hillary Clinton's history as a candidate and know that her word isn't very trustworthy. She says her platform is to improve it. Great! I'm just supposed to believe her? Sorry, but I don't. She ain't trust worthy, not in my eyes. She's going to need way, way more than her 'word' to get me to believe her.

So now we are pulling this bullshit.

"She can't be trusted because of reasons, so I will just assume whatever the fuck I want to assume and treat my assumption like fact."

You have basically set up an unwindable proposition. She needs to do more to convince me but I can't trust her words. So basically you are going full Colbert-esque "truthiness."

 

[Melkezadek]

In fairness, isn't this just saying you won't be convinced by any argument anyone makes. Why are you participating if there's no good faith attempt to see another point of view?

So now we are pulling this bullshit.

"She can't be trusted because of reasons, so I will just assume whatever the fuck I want to assume and treat my assumption like fact."

You have basically set up an unwindable proposition. She needs to do more to convince me but I can't trust her words. So basically you are going full Colbert-esque "truthiness."

Exactly. Officially out of his "debate". It always comes to to this. People actually take the time to engage, but it falls on deaf ears. This is why these Bernie-or-Busters ultimately get shouted down and dismissed. They're full of shit.

 

[SneakersSO]

In fairness, isn't this just saying you won't be convinced by any argument anyone makes. Why are you participating if there's no good faith attempt to see another point of view?

I don't understand why anyone presumes good faith when presenting points of view & why they aren't understood. It bothers me that people don't really give a fuck about what happens to people like me or our community outside of voting time, and i'll share that perspective, but I just assume people are going to go on & continue doing/believing what they already do/believe.

People have their arguments & viewpoints on how all of this can & should play out that'll be best for everyone. I don't agree with them from the outset due to my own personal experiences & history.

So now we are pulling this bullshit.

"She can't be trusted because of reasons, so I will just assume whatever the fuck I want to assume and treat my assumption like fact."

You have basically set up an unwindable proposition. She needs to do more to convince me but I can't trust her words. So basically you are going full Colbert-esque "truthiness."

Look, Clinton is most likely going to win this election. When she does, I welcome the chance for her to prove me wrong with her actions as POTUS. I look forward to it. But i'm not gonna go out and go against my beliefs & just give her a vote & potentially have her prove me right in the end.

 

[Krowley]

How is having the 'most progressive platform in democratic history', one that was signed off by Bernie Sanders, the man that mobilised the further left this election season, not enough of an olive branch? Progressives should be happy enough with the country moving in the direction they want, gradually, in which they can push further in later elections.

Meanwhile a VP like Kaine can help attract the Republican voters disillusioned with Trump. This is valuable, and makes more sense then catering to a force that was already catered for in the policy of the candidate, which is arguably the most important point for what should be voted for.

At this point, what else do you want?

The choice of Tim Kaine isn't just about this election. It's about the future. This is the trajectory she wants for the democratic party. Down the road he'll be another centrist presidential candidate with the machine of the party fully behind him, to shove him down everybody's throats.

I'll repeat myself. Holdouts are great. That's how you change the party. A certain number of people aren't willing to settle. Enough to hurt. And eventually you have to cater to them. As long as you're not in a battleground state I don't see any reason why people should feel pressured to vote for Hillary. Give her a victory, but it doesn't have to be a strong victory. IMO, it's better if it isn't a strong victory. I would like to see her win and get primaried from the left in 4 years.

People keep talking about a left-wing version of the tea-party... Talk about false equivalency. One big difference: the left wing version of the tea party would be factually right about almost everything.

edit// Another thing, Bernie voters are not sheep that will do everything Bernie tells them to do. People with that mindset would've been much more likely to blithely accept the mainstream choice and wouldn't have went for Bernie in the first place. Of course he is endorsing Clinton. In his position, I would too. Doesn't mean we all need to get in line and be good little soldiers for him. Get real.

 

[commedieu]

I wont lie, the Bernie supporters are revealing themselves as incredibly entitled and out of touch with the terrible nature of democracy. Not to mention embarrassing.

Makes me kinda glad he didn't get the candidacy, even though I like him the best out of the prospective candidates.

Yes, often times the candidate you want doesn't get in, and lots of the things the party you most closely identify with will have things you don't like about them.

Congratulations, you now know what it's like to be in a democracy.

That's why I felt stupid at the rallies. A lot of people have no idea what compromise is (democracy). They were very enthusiastic, yes, and bernies message was superior. But without the system to support his words, they are meaningess. He didn't play ball to even get in the stadium.

Now it's just a bunch of pissed off voters who just KNEW bernie was going to change the world. So since he's not going to win, it's taking their toy, and running home with it.

People don't understand the implications of a republican win. And this thread explains that in hd. I can't stand hillary, but I couldn't stand a lot of people who I voted for. I liked bernie. Hated his stance on guns, but again, compromise.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I don't understand why anyone presumes good faith when presenting points of view & why they aren't understood. It bothers me that people don't really give a fuck about what happens to people like me or our community outside of voting time, and i'll share that perspective, but I just assume people are going to go on & continue doing/believing what they already do/believe.

People have their arguments & viewpoints on how all of this can & should play out that'll be best for everyone. I don't agree with them from the outset due to my own personal experiences & history.

I'm also not a well-off minority, so I am unsure this is the right angle to come at me with. I sympathize with your position and opinions, but you did say things that were outright incorrect, then when called on it, you said essentially "I don't care."

You keep retreating into different inarguable positions for this argument, but they're inarguable because they come down to unprovable ideological feelings and emotions. I don't know why you're getting mad at other people for that.