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[Dangansona]

Who is "they"? There are always going to be extreme people who hate Hilary no matter what, but there are far more people who do care about the decisions that Hilary makes when deciding to vote for her.

Yeah I'm tired of GAFers inflating the numbers of these people. There are actually users on here who go on diatribes about how this is proof "all Sanders fans have no backbone and they are better off in their parents house on Reddit."

 

[Jonm1010]

Oh, please go ahead somewhere with that silly ass conspiracy theory crap. That's just code for "you don't have the same opinion as most of us do, so you're a conspiracy theorist."

If you're asking me if I'm campaigning for third parties; no I am not.

Yeah, I said it. If it bothers you, tough shit.

Thanks for asking a straightforward question without any insults embedded.

I dislike Trump because he's a raging idiot, bigot, and xenophobe - a political joke who has, by some miracle, become a political reality. It's hard to imagine such a buffoon could be president but this just might actually happen.

I dislike Hillary because I think she's an undeniable corporatist and massively jingoistic warhawk with at least one psychopathic tendency (i.e. "We came, we saw, he died" *cackle* re: a 70 year old man sodomized with a knife and killed). Listened to her Brookings and AIPAC speeches just reinforces my dislike for her.

In the end, I think they're equally bad for different reasons. However, I think Trump has no clue what he's doing, but Hillary will be very calculated in her presidency - she'll be like Obama, continue a lot of the Bush policies and even double down on things like extraordinary rendition, indefinite detention, drone strikes, torture, etc. but get a pass because he's an excellent orator, had plenty of swag, and was the first Black president. Clinton would get the same type of pass for the same reason (gender in lieu of race). I think this makes her more dangerous. I very might well be wrong in this assessment, but I'll have to wait and see how it plays out.

So again, what are you actually doing to change anything? You want viable third parties. You recognize that currently the system is not conducive to them being viable, but you sit on your hands and vote for them anyways.

To me all I am hearing is I sit around and don't do shit, talk a big game on message boards and throw my vote away every 4 years for candidates I admit have no real viability and can't articulate why my vote will lead to meaningful progress toward my ideals.

To me you seem like a net zero citizen. Congrats. If that upsets you, perhaps do a better job articulating why your strategy and decisions are anything more then self serving?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Run from what? Did you read?

Having more than two parties works well in so many other nations.

Those other nations don't literally have a constitutionally mandated absolute majority.

You can win with just a plurality in other countries. In the US winning a plurality just means the House picks the president.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Spare the "millennial snowflake" crap. Nothing about his post comes off entitled.

I love Pepsi. Am I going to go around campaigning for Pepsi to overtake Coke in my spare time? Do I give out samples of Pepsi to all my friends so they can truly see how great Pepsi is? I don't sit in my bed at night thinking "why is everyone buying Coke? It doesn't make any sense! I've got to make more people drink Pepsi!" Why? Because that's the job of the people who run Pepsi.

End of the day when I go into a store I pick a Pepsi because that's what I like and enjoy. Props to those who go in an enjoy a Coca-Cola... or an RC-Cola, or heaven forbid a Shasta. That's their choice.

Shasta is Bernie Sanders, right? Small soda company (relatively) going against the soda establishment.

 

[Dr. Feel Good]

So again literally moral realitivism.

I didn't say you cared about sports, I meant a proverbial you.

You act like an election has the same impact as the outcome of a sports match.

Sure. I guess you're right then. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, but others would probably disagree. I'm more of the mindset that I can't personally change the world, all I can do is to stand behind what I believe in and hope that others feel the same. To me what matters most is more people being better off and happier in the world, I don't care if that means I pay more taxes, or illegal immigrants take our jobs, or whatever other negative shit can come into play. I want more people to be happy and better off, and to me Hillary represents (or in sake of argument, Gary Johnson) that best in the campaign. If the general populous doesn't feel that way, or the system is rigged to not allow it... well *shrug* I tried.

 

[FreedomFighter]

So again, what are you actually doing to change anything? You want viable third parties. You recognize that currently the system is not conducive to them being viable, but you sit on your hands.

To me all I am hearing is I sit around and don't do shit, talk a big game on message boards and throw my vote away every 4 years for candidates I admit have no real viability and can't articulate why my vote will lead to meaningful progress toward my ideals.

To me you seem like a net zero citizen. Congrats.

Oh, please. Only reason I keep bothering with you is because your saltiness and anger is somewhat entertaining to me.

They booed Bernie man, it has nothing to do with progressive/liberal at all. It is all about anti-Clinton, anti-establishment, anti.

Didn't they boo him when he mentioned they should vote for Hillary? Or did he have another speech where he was booed?

 

[FreedomFighter]

Those other nations don't literally have a constitutionally mandated absolute majority.

You can win with just a plurality in other countries. In the US winning a plurality just means the House picks the president.

All the defense you all are playing are really just indictments of our political system in disguise.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Yeah I'm tired of GAFers inflating the numbers of these people. There are actually users on here who go on diatribes about how this is proof "all Sanders fans have no backbone and they are better off in their parents house on Reddit."

Talking about a very specific and vocal minority of Bernie supporters. Bernie was at a luncheon this morning and he was getting booed by his own supporters. You have some of his supporters calling him a sellout, etc. No one here is calling out all Bernie supporters, that is your hyperbole.

People at the DNC with signs that say love Bernie or Trump wins. Shit is just stupid.

Didn't they boo him when he mentioned they should vote for Hillary?

Nod. Which is precisely my point, he can support her, he understands what is on the table here. Why do some of his fervent supporters have such a problem with it?

 

[Jonm1010]

Oh, please. Only reason I keep bothering with you is because your saltiness and anger is somewhat entertaining to me.

Didn't they boo him when he mentioned they should vote for Hillary? Or did he have another speech where he was booed?

Why are you? You can't seem to answer my questions, articulate a rationale for your actions outside of being self serving and making charges of me being salty. When really, I'm just baffled at this logic or lack thereof.

The system is broken! Ok, what will you do? NOTHING and I will defend that ruthlessly!!

 

[Dr. Feel Good]

So again, what are you actually doing to change anything? You want viable third parties. You recognize that currently the system is not conducive to them being viable, but you sit on your hands and vote for them anyways.

To me all I am hearing is I sit around and don't do shit, talk a big game on message boards and throw my vote away every 4 years for candidates I admit have no real viability and can't articulate why my vote will lead to meaningful progress toward my ideals.

To me you seem like a net zero citizen. Congrats. If that upsets you, perhaps do a better job articulating why your strategy and decisions are anything more then self serving?

Why is it his job as the citizen to change the way the system works though? You still haven't really addressed that in the past two pages.

 

[Mael]

I just meant indirectly, as with any President in the history of the United States. Say a war starts while she's in office, she could say give the go ahead to drop bombs with fall out of innocent people. That ruined those people's lives. I didn't mean that her being in office leads to literally ruining someone's life immediately just because she's in office (as say Trump with deportation for families as an example).

Ok that makes sense, although I'd argue that politicians have no obligation looking out for foreign citizens and in some case it may be in their country interest to do so.
I wouldn't begrudge even Trump on doing that.
I guess the issue i would have is that I'm pretty sure a Trump presidency would shit on a good number of US families while I don't see that with...well pretty much nearly all the other candidates.

Run from what? Did you read?

You're running from

And I dislike Hillary just as much, if not more, than Trump.

I'm not the only one in wanting an explanation.
And preferrably one that doesn't have the word hawk or some other BS in it.

Having more than two parties works well in so many other nations.

It also sometimes doesn't work in other nations too.
2 parties is a factor of stability which is usually a good thing in a political system.

 

[Dangansona]

Talking about a very specific and vocal minority of Bernie supporters. Bernie was at a luncheon this morning and he was getting booed by his own supporters. You have some of his supporters calling him a sellout, etc. No one here is calling out all Bernie supporters, that is your hyperbole.

People at the DNC with signs that say love Bernie or Trump wins. Shit is just stupid.



Nod. Which is precisely my point, he can support her, he understands what is on the table here. Why do some of his fervent supporters have such a problem with it?

Not in this thread, I'm speaking of a problem across this board to which I could find proof of.

I agree that the majority of people for Bernie at the convention are wasting their time and probably not all that smart. And yes I'm aware of everything that went down today. I've been watching all these threads with morbid curiosity.

 

[Jonm1010]

Why is it his job as the citizen to change the way the system works though? You still haven't really addressed that in the past two pages.

You understand how democracy works right? Representative government?

If the system sucks you work to change it. If you can't articulate why your efforts are working toward that end in a credible way then it begs the question why are you choosing that strategy?

 

[Mael]

Why is it his job as the citizen to change the way the system works though? You still haven't really addressed that in the past two pages.

If he has an issue with the system, it's not going to magically come together to the way he wants just by looking at his TV really hard.
If he's not out there pushing for the change, he doesn't care enough to make a change.

 

[MIMIC]

Ummm yes no shit.

Well you need to stop acting like one voting option (i.e. YOUR voting option) is the only one without any negative consequences.

 

[FreedomFighter]

Nod. Which is precisely my point, he can support her, he understands what is on the table here. Why do some of his fervent supporters have such a problem with it?

Interesting. I think they just feel betrayed. Seems some of his supporters are rallying behind his call to not let Trump become pres, others are flooding to 3rd parties (Jill Stein said as much about her campaign), some are saying they won't vote, others saying they'll even vote for Trump. Not sure what is going on with his supporters.

 

[Dangansona]

If he has an issue with the system, it's not going to magically come together to the way he wants just by looking at his TV really hard.
If he's not out there pushing for the change, he doesn't care enough to make a change.

I honestly don't think there is much of an alternative unless across the country political outsiders start getting elected.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Not in this thread, I'm speaking of a problem across this board to which I could find proof of.

You could? You can find proof were it is seemingly a 'problem across this board' that we are calling all Bernie supporters as spineless. I mean that is what you said.

It is a vocal subset of Bernie supporters; hence the reason they are called BoB, Bernie Bros, etc. No one is calling out all supporters like you are trying to claim is the case.

I agree that the majority of people for Bernie at the convention are wasting their time.

They are doing much more than wasting their time. They are harming Clinton, the party, and are giving ammo to Trump.

 

[Dangansona]

You could? You can find proof were it is seemingly a 'problem across this board' that we are calling all Bernie supporters as spineless. I mean that is what you said.

It is a vocal subset of Bernie supporters; hence the reason they are called BoB, Bernie Bros, etc. No one is calling out all supporters like you are trying to claim is the case.



They are doing much more than wasting their time. They are harming Clinton, the party, and are giving ammo to Trump.

I'll attempt to find the last time I saw this happening from a post a couple of days ago after dinner.

 

[Mael]

I honestly don't think there is much of an alternative unless across the country political outsiders start getting elected.

No one said it was easy.
Even for the bankrolled teaparty they had to spend so much time and money and they're actually seeing results.
Or throwing a tantrum at the only candidate willing to do anything to help their cause will bear fruits....don't complain about the results afterwards though.

 

[Dr. Feel Good]

You understand how democracy works right? Representative government?

If the system sucks you work to change it. If you can't articulate why your efforts are working toward that end in a credible way then it begs the question why are you choosing that strategy?

I feel like even just voting for something outside the system is telling the government something needs to change. He's doing his part. Am I supposed to sit on a street corner with a megaphone and pretend like that makes a difference?

Let your voice be heard through voting. Maybe Gary Johnson will only get 5% votes this time, but you realize that's a 500% increase over the 2012 election? Isn't that progress? Does that not mean anything? Maybe in 2020 he could get 10%? If politics is playing the long game, well then he's arguably playing the long game.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

I'll attempt to find the last time I saw this happening from a post a couple of days ago after dinner.

I think you're missing the point, you called it a problem across the board; i.e. systemic. Finding a post does not represent a systemic issue. As I originally said, it is hyperbole.

 

[Jonm1010]

I honestly don't think there is much of an alternative unless across the country political outsiders start getting elected.

So lets go with this and explore it.

What do you think is needed for political outsiders to get elected?

Because I agree, it would be nice. But this is a country that elects presidents and representatives(some exceptions) through explicit majority. In terms of the presidency, if a majority is not reached, the House votes on the president. A House composed of almost nothing but Democrats and Republicans.

This makes a dark horse third party candidate actually being a spoiler practically impossible in modern America.

So if the end goal is more viable third party choices, just starting up a movement around voting for them every 4 years is a fools errand. Can we agree on that? Can we also agree that if through some miracle they did get elected, the ability to pass their agenda is infinitely small?

 

[Dangansona]

So lets go with this and explore it.

What do you think is needed for political outsiders to get elected?

Because I agree, it would be nice. But this is a country that elects presidents and representatives(some exceptions) through explicit majority. In terms of the presidency, if a majority is not reached, the House votes on the president. A House composed of almost nothing but Democrats and Republicans.

This makes a dark horse third party candidate actually being a spoiler practically impossible in modern America.

So if the end goal is more viable third party choices, just starting up a movement around voting for them every 4 years is a fools errand. Can we agree on that? Can we also agree that if through some miracle they did get elected, the ability to pass their agenda is infinitely small?

Oh I do agree, and that's a huge fucking problem for me. Which is why I'm biting my tongue and voting Hillary and not third party. I was just trying to point out that it's not necessarily fair to call someone out for not doing enough to advocate for third parties because it is sadly a lost cause.

 

[Nickle]

Why are you? You can't seem to answer my questions, articulate a rationale for your actions outside of being self serving and making charges of me being salty. When really, I'm just baffled at this logic or lack thereof.

The system is broken! Ok, what will you do? NOTHING and I will defend that ruthlessly!!

You guys have both been arguing on the internet for 3 hours when you each could have been helping your candidates get elected, let's not criticize each other's commitment to their candidate.

 

[link1201]

Do they have an estimate of the number of protestors who actually showed up yet?

 

[FStubbs]

You could? You can find proof were it is seemingly a 'problem across this board' that we are calling all Bernie supporters as spineless. I mean that is what you said.

It is a vocal subset of Bernie supporters; hence the reason they are called BoB, Bernie Bros, etc. No one is calling out all supporters like you are trying to claim is the case.



They are doing much more than wasting their time. They are harming Clinton, the party, and are giving ammo to Trump.

At this point, especially if Bernie give the speech we expect tonight, let's stop identifying them with Bernie. They're Trump voters in denial.

 

[Jonm1010]

]I feel like even just voting for something outside the system is telling the government something needs to change.[/B] He's doing his part. Am I supposed to sit on a street corner with a megaphone and pretend like that makes a difference?

Let your voice be heard through voting. Maybe Gary Johnson will only get 5% votes this time, but you realize that's a 500% increase over the 2012 election? Isn't that progress? Does that not mean anything? Maybe in 2020 he could get 10%? If politics is playing the long game, well then he's arguably playing the long game.

If that party looses, sure. The notion that they will learn the lesson you want them to and will adjust accordingly is questionable at best. With pretty much no strong evidence in recent American history to support it.

If the end goal is to move the party a certain direction, move the country a certain direction, protest voting at the executive has little to no evidence to its strength in efficacy over other methods. Not to mention much more risks then established benefits. Its something I MAY be able to get behind if someone can offer up supporting actions along with their vote. But absent that it comes off misguided, ineffectual and borderline dangerous.

Frankly, to me, it is an indicator of a poor grasp of the political system that governs this nation. No offense.

Obama and Bernie have done more to move the party then Nader or Stein have in their entire careers.

Failing to vote Democratic in 2010 has done more to regress progress on liberal agendas, Green agendas, including socialist platforms, and their representative candidates, then anything else in recent memory.

Trump getting elected while Stein gains 10% is no guarantee of 1.) the Democratic platform being moved in the direction Stein voters want. 2.) That long term it is a more effective path toward that goal then more proven alternatives. In fact if Trump wins because of it, it likely hurts far more then it helps.

The Tea Party, in all their craziness, has shown more evidence in support of ground up movements over any Executive Branch on down movements as far back as I can remember.

You guys have both been arguing on the internet for 3 hours when you each could have been helping your candidates get elected, let's not criticize each other's commitment to their candidate.

Thats not the argument...

 

[Plywood]

edit: wrong thread

 

[excelsiorlef]

Well you need to stop acting like one voting option (i.e. YOUR voting option) is the only one without any negative consequences.

Voting for anyone will have "negative" consequences for someone, the goal is to alleviate it as much as possible for as many as possible.

If you are in any a liberal, progressive, etc:

A Trump victory will a the most negative consequences.

Thus we can create a hierarchy:

A vote for Trump is a vote for the most negative consequences

A vote for a third party is a vote for potentially enabling the most negative consequences

A vote for Clinton is the only vote to actually prevent the most negative consequences.

 

[Chezzymann]

No, please don't run from it.
Explain how a career politician like Clinton is worse than a serial con man like Trump.
It always go back to stuffs like Lybia or explaining how Trump don't really think what he says or some other crap like that.
I'd really like to know.

Im a Hillary supporter but from what I've seen Bernie supporters who support trump over Clinton care more about getting money out of politics and getting rid of TPP. Climate change, social issues, gun control etc. dont seem to matter as much to them. They don't seem to be "normal" democrats and probably would be independents in a normal election.

Of course it's ironic because trump literally is the money in politics. You're just cutting out the middle man.

 

[Jonm1010]

Im a Hillary supporter but from what I've seen Bernie supporters who support trump over Clinton care more about getting money out of politics and getting rid of TPP. Climate change, social issues, gun control etc. dont seem to matter as much to them. They don't seem to be "normal" democrats and probably would be independents in a normal election.

Of course it's ironic because trump literally is the money in politics. You're just cutting out the middle man.

Only one candidate has pledged to over-turning Citizens United and has explicit policies on campaign finance reform.

So yeah, that would be ironic.

 

[Ithil]

Im a Hillary supporter but from what I've seen Bernie supporters who support trump over Clinton care more about getting money out of politics and getting rid of TPP. Climate change, social issues, gun control etc. dont seem to matter as much to them. They don't seem to be "normal" democrats and probably would be independents in a normal election.

Of course it's ironic because trump literally is the money in politics. You're just cutting out the middle man.

How they look at Trump and think he is going to get money out of politics I don't know, given he's among the most greedy people in the country.

 

[Chezzymann]

Only one candidate has pledged to over-turning Citizens United and has explicit policies on campaign finance reform.

So yeah, that would be ironic.

That's where it starts turning into conspiracy theories about not trusting Clinton cause she's corrupted and bought out and even if she says that she wants to over turn citizens united she's just "trying to get elected"

How they look at Trump and think he is going to get money out of politics I don't know, given he's among the most greedy people in the country.

I guess it's the "I'm self funding my campaign" stuff he said in the primary and all the bashing he did on politicians. But yeah I agree it's stupid though. Hes like the real life Mr scrooge

 

[Evening Musuko]

That's where it starts turning into conspiracy theories about not trusting Clinton cause she's corrupted and bought out and even if she says that she wants to over turn citizens united she's just "trying to get elected"

Isn't that the point?

 

[Jonm1010]

Isn't that the point?

And shockingly enough, most candidates actually want to get re-elected as well lol.

And it may be hard to believe, but governing in a way that breaks most or all of your promises doesn't make it easier to get re-elected.

 

[yanipheonu]

Man this speech just reminded me of one very good reason the Bernie or Bust thing is nonsence.

Not being President doesn't mean he's dead guys.

Frankly, the President, given the separation of their powers and their busy Head of State duties, sometimes has a limited capability to do some things.

Bernie may well be better off as a spokesperson for his issues rather than President.

 

[cdyhybrid]

There you have it, Busters. The man himself laid it out crystal clear. Think long and hard about what he said before you sit this one out.

 

[commedieu]

Boom.

 

[commedieu]

I say god damn this thread went silent.

 

[gutter_trash]

There you have it, Busters. The man himself laid it out crystal clear. Think long and hard about what he said before you sit this one out.

even that is not enough for them, they will loud again during the roll call

 

[Dr. Feel Good]

I say god damn this thread went silent.

I never supported Bernie, but are people really surprised at his endorsement? I mean it was bound to happen, no?

 

[cdyhybrid]

I never supported Bernie, but are people really surprised at his endorsement? I mean it was bound to happen, no?

He already endorsed her before tonight. That still wasn't enough for Busters.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I never supported Bernie, but are people really surprised at his endorsement? I mean it was bound to happen, no?

We needed the next level speech that he had tonight to drown out the stupidity of the Bernie or Busters. His endorsement was WAY more genuine than people assumed it would be. Many people projected and assumed he'd be begrudgingly endorsing Hillary. Nah son, he went in.

 

[Kyzer]

Bernie was seriously a hero tonight, and Michelle was like a special summon or something straight goddess mode 99999 dmg

 

[reKon]

Rosario Dawson tho...

 

[Christine]

This thread has become more than a little top-heavy and now that tonight's DNC celebrations are done I don't think we need it anymore. It's been a while since anyone has been seriously discussing street protest of the DNC, please make a new thread tomorrow if news warrants.