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Berserk |OT| - Big men, bigger swords, OFF THE BOAT - Berserk #344 24/6/2016

The OP's opinion is shit in regards to the movie. The movies did a better job than the anime in retelling the story from the manga. Still not perfect but they were good and looked great.

Watch all three. And yes, the anime ends at the same place...
Guts getting his weapons and heading out to fight

Watching all three is like watching a whole movie with overlength. Watching one of them feels like one third of a movie.

The CGI was bullshit. Worst CGI i have ever seen (Even the CGI from the Dreamcast game was better).

I wouldnt recommend this to anyone because the source material is like 100 times better.
 

Dawg

Member
All these Griffith shenanigans, all his PR stunts, all of it has been preparation to push up the market value of his dream kingdom just so he can sacrifice it again in the fucking mega eclipse.
 

Oberon

Banned
To be sure, Spoiler for the entire manga!
After seeing the new chapter I reread the part with the count. Isn't it strange that he still felt love for his daughter? And the behelit Apostle didn't seem like a bloodthirsty monster either ( or that butterfly girl). My theory is that when you do a sacrifice you lose your humanity but the motivation, the "why you did it" is still there.
Just like Zodd dream of fighting stronger opponents ( he could have attacked guts and caska after the eclipse but didn't, even though it could be because skullknight was there.Or of course Griffiths dream.
 
Started reading the manga earlier this month after loving the anime.

So damn good.

It's also crazy that this manga has been going on for as long as I've been alive. I can only imagine how painful the wait has been for those that have been with it since the beginning. =\
 

hunnies28

Member
Started reading the manga earlier this month after loving the anime.

So damn good.

It's also crazy that this manga has been going on for as long as I've been alive. I can only imagine how painful the wait has been for those that have been with it since the beginning. =\

Are they even still alive doe?
 

Kain

Member
At least Griffith seems a little ashamed of what he did.

He is the bad guy but he is a good guy. Damn that makes it hard to hate him >_<
 
At least Griffith seems a little ashamed of what he did.

He is the bad guy but he is a good guy. Damn that makes it hard to hate him >_<

Does he really feel ashamed, though? Or is it just
the fact that Guts'/Casca's son is part of him now?

Either way I suppose that it's true that becoming an apostle doesn't actually mean all of your humanity is dead, despite what is said. The Count still loved his daughter. And since the two people that Griffith loved most are still alive, and haven't succumbed to the Brand... That piece of his humanity left is going to be a big part of the remaining story, I think.

Also, new chapter was great.
 
At least Griffith seems a little ashamed of what he did.

He is the bad guy but he is a good guy. Damn that makes it hard to hate him >_<

I don't think he's ashamed at all (though it does seem like he might be feeling something), but on the Hill of Swords however many episodes ago he did tell Rickert that he deserved his hatred. Griffith isn't completely emotionally tone deaf, I guess, though I'm sure he must be essentially a husk of a person.

But yeah Rickert is a badass. Easily one of the more powerful scenes in recent memory.
 
What I loved even more than
the slap
was this quote:

I am Rickert of the Band of the Falcon. I am led by the White-Winged Griffith. The Falcon of light is not my commander.
 
What I loved even more than
the slap
was this quote:

I am Rickert of the Band of the Falcon. I am led by the White-Winged Griffith. The Falcon of light is not my commander.

Definitely. Griffith is gone, and only the people that knew him as a human are going to understand that. It kind of goes to show that when Casca regains her memory, she's bound to feel the same way.
 

dani_dc

Member
What I loved even more than
the slap
was this quote:

I am Rickert of the Band of the Falcon. I am led by the White-Winged Griffith. The Falcon of light is not my commander.

Easily one of my favorite scenes as well. It's nice to see that being acknowledge in-manga (that Griffith and the current Griffith are essentially different people). The only person that knew both that doesn't seem to realize this is Charlotte, but she always had a fabricated view of Griffith
 
Things are finally picking up again. Rickert humiliated Griffith and it was amazing. I have to admit though I want to see what Guts is doing.
 

Tizoc

Member
Oh damn new chapter out? Time to give it a read and just from the recent posts it looks to be good, 'bout time Griffith was told what's what.

EDIT: Just read it,
simply put this Griffith just isn't the same one that Rickert knew and spent his years with. Short but good issue IMO
 

RangerBAD

Member
Griffith
might have some of his humanity (personally I don't think he does), but that doesn't make him not evil. If anything that makes him even scarier. And, no, I don't think he's ashamed. Perhaps stunned.
 
Griffith
might have some of his humanity (personally I don't think he does), but that doesn't make him not evil. If anything that makes him even scarier. And, no, I don't think he's ashamed. Perhaps stunned.

Yeah, he's certainly evil, there's no question about that in my mind. But if he does indeed have that shred of humanity left, it's going to make things a lot more interesting going forward than if he literally has 0 compassion left in his soul. And yeah, if he does have that and can still go on after what he did to Guts, Casca, and the rest of the Band of the Hawk? All the scarier.
 

Popnbake

Member
Things are finally picking up again. Rickert humiliated Griffith and it was amazing. I have to admit though I want to see what Guts is doing.

If they were alone then yeah, the scene was great but
Rickert just slapped Griffith aka Falcon of Light in front of the pope, the queen, soldiers, and a hidden loyal apostle.

For him expecting to walk away like nothing happened just didn't seem right.
 
If they were alone then yeah, the scene was great but
Rickert just slapped Griffith aka Falcon of Light in front of the pope, the queen, soldiers, and a hidden loyal apostle.

For him expecting to walk away like nothing happened just didn't seem right.

Yeah, I'm kind of scared for Rickert. That last panel seemed pretty ominous, with the look on Griffith's face and the clouds in the background.

I think Rickert will possibly team up with that old magic dude that used to serve Ganishka. (Can't remember his name.) That's the old guy that Erica met, right? He's probably Rickert's only chance of leaving the city alive.
 
If they were alone then yeah, the scene was great but
Rickert just slapped Griffith aka Falcon of Light in front of the pope, the queen, soldiers, and a hidden loyal apostle.

For him expecting to walk away like nothing happened just didn't seem right.

Griffith is practically Jesus, he doesn't need to care. If he was still human or had more tenuous power it might be different, but for Griffith to punish Rickert his pride would have to have been affected somehow, and I'm not sure if that's possible. And if he really doesn't care, I think most people would take that at face value or consider it magnanimous. I mean it's not even like when some villains get all megalomaniacal and consider everyone beneath them, from Griffith's perspective that is something that's certainly true.

I could see this causing Charlotte some doubt down the line, though. Or Sonia, since she's a telepath and has been shown to be curious and she could ask Rickert about it. I kind of think Charlotte has to start seeing how the story doesn't really add up at some point, and having his former subordinates turn on him might serve as that final doubt that she can't really banish from her mind.
 

RangerBAD

Member
Griffith is practically Jesus, he doesn't need to care. If he was still human or had more tenuous power it might be different, but for Griffith to punish Rickert his pride would have to have been affected somehow, and I'm not sure if that's possible. And if he really doesn't care, I think most people would take that at face value or consider it magnanimous. I mean it's not even like when some villains get all megalomaniacal and consider everyone beneath them, from Griffith's perspective that is something that's certainly true.

I could see this causing Charlotte some doubt down the line, though. Or Sonia, since she's a telepath and has been shown to be curious and she could ask Rickert about it. I kind of think Charlotte has to start seeing how the story doesn't really add up at some point, and having his former subordinates turn on him might serve as that final doubt that she can't really banish from her mind.

That's not a good comparision. More like the anti-Christ/Hitler, which means Griffith is a small and cowardly man. Even ants irritate those sort of men. We actually know this because it's what led him to become what Rickert refuses to acknowledge. Not everyone that gets hurt wants the world to burn.
He blames Guts for his own indiscretions. He doesn't even acknowledge responsibility. No, he's just, "I fucked Charlotte, got tortured, went insane, sacrificed all I claimed to care about and raped Casca. And it's YOUR fault, Guts, because you left." Band of the Hawk/Falcon was always truly a means to an end. It's amazing he cared about anyone before he became the monster he is now.
 
That's not a good comparision. More like the anti-Christ/Hitler, which means Griffith is a small and cowardly man. Even ants irritate those sort of men. We actually know those because it's what led him become what Rickert refuses to acknowledge. Not everyone that gets hurt wants the world to burn.
He blames Guts for his own indiscretions. He doesn't even acknowledge responsibility. No, he's just, "I fucked Charlotte, got tortured, went insane, sacrificed all I claimed to care about and raped Casca. And it's YOUR fault, Guts, because you left." Band of the Hawk/Falcon was always truly a means to an end. It's amazing he cared about anyone before he became the monster he is now.

First of all, Griffith has had profound changes to his character at at least three points in the story. Normal human Griffith is different from post-torture insanity Griffith is profoundly different from Femto. And now he's inhabiting the body of Guts and Casca's child which seems to be exerting some influence, too. Though these are all the same person, they're the same person in the sense that you as a child was 'still you', there's a crapload of separation there.

We know a thing or two about how Griffith was as a human, but we know practically nothing about him since he became Femto. This is clearly intentional, but of what we do know, it points to the complete opposite of your conclusion. What has been shown is that Griffith now isn't even remotely petty or insecure. In fact, it would make no sense for him to be. He's gained such a degree of confidence and security from his ascendancy, that he's not even capable of considering someone like Guts or even Skullknight as a threat to him. All of the Godhand are like this, Slan laughed and orgasmed when her troll gut body was stabbed by Guts in the Qlippoth. They just don't give a shit and projecting ordinary or human feelings on them seems completely absurd.
 

RangerBAD

Member
His goal has never changed though. It's always been about power. Maybe at first his intentions were fine, but they definitely warped as he came into more recognition and continued to warp.
His anger might have been understandable when Guts left, but it shouldn't have gone as far as it did. Guts staying might have changed things,
but it's pretty clear how weak Griffith is.
 
His goal has never changed though. It's always been about power. Maybe at first his intentions were fine, but they definitely warped as he came into more recognition and continued to warp.
His anger might have been understandable when Guts left, but it shouldn't have gone as far as it did. Guts staying might have changed things,
but it's pretty clear how weak Griffith is.

The irony is that his goal did change. Originally his desire for a Kingdom was symbolic, it was a measure by which he could transform himself through his merit, and not be held back by class. Then he literally transformed into Femto (which I'm not sure you really understand) and the entire landscape of his aspiration changed. I'm sure now he has a greater sense of what his 'purpose' is, instead of just having a vague intuition that he was meant for greatness, and he's actually able to fulfill that grand purpose since he's now something other than human, but at the same time it seems a lot more hollow from our perspective.
 

Veelk

Banned
His goal has never changed though. It's always been about power. Maybe at first his intentions were fine, but they definitely warped as he came into more recognition and continued to warp.
His anger might have been understandable when Guts left, but it shouldn't have gone as far as it did. Guts staying might have changed things,
but it's pretty clear how weak Griffith is.

I don't think anyone is denying that griffith, at any given point in his life, isn't a dick. He has always been a dick. And just because he's a dick doesn't necessarily mean he's 'weak' as you percieve him to be. The major point of Femto is that he removes his ability to empathize and have attachments by becoming a godhand. The weakness that you are addressing is no longer a factor and I fail to see what him keeping his dream the same has to do with it.

The irony is that his goal did change. Originally his desire for a Kingdom was symbolic, it was a measure by which he could transform himself through his merit, and not be held back by class. Then he literally transformed into Femto (which I'm not sure you really understand) and the entire landscape of his aspiration changed. I'm sure now he has a greater sense of what his 'purpose' is, instead of just having a vague intuition that he was meant for greatness, and he's actually able to fulfill that grand purpose since he's now something other than human, but at the same time it seems a lot more hollow from our perspective.

Eh....maybe. The problem is we don't know why Femto does the things he does or what the purpose of Falconia is. I mean, it's fairly certain he is serving the Evil as that's what the Godhand does....but the God of Evil told him "Do as you will." So it's hard to tell if he's acting to serve Evil (with the specific goal to make more despair) or living out his dream like he always wanted to (which causality will merely turn into despair). Basically, we are faced with the question: what do the godhand do when their off the job vs on their job?

Until we have that answered, we don't know if Griffith's goal changed. Maybe he's just persuing this goal just to have it done, checked off the bucket list even though it doesn't mean what it used to mean to him anymore. Maybe he's doing it as part of the grand plan. Or maybe it still means the same thing, with the job of being godhand not that important to him (and, after all, the God of Evil told him the job of the Godhand is "Do whatever the fuck you want". And what does Griffith want?)
 
Eh....maybe. The problem is we don't know why Femto does the things he does or what the purpose of Falconia is. I mean, it's fairly certain he is serving the Evil as that's what the Godhand does....but the God of Evil told him "Do as you will." So it's hard to tell if he's acting to serve Evil (with the specific goal to make more despair) or living out his dream like he always wanted to (which causality will merely turn into despair). Basically, we are faced with the question: what do the godhand do when their off the job?

Until we have that answered, we don't know if Griffith's goal changed. Maybe he's just persuing this goal just to have it done, checked off the bucket list even though it doesn't mean what it used to mean to him anymore. Maybe he's doing it as part of the grand plan. Or maybe it still means the same thing, with the job of being godhand not that important to him (and, after all, the God of Evil told him the job of the Godhand is "Do whatever the fuck you want". And what does Griffith want?)

I've tended to read those as being the same, like Griffith's individual unfettered will is like a microcosm for the Idea of Evil, or something, I tried to make that sound elegant but it didn't really work.

My thought was more that Griffith's motives must have been at one point 'humanistic', and subtracting that must change the landscape. But I'd also argue that his dream as offered to him after he went crazy had already gone through a similar kind of corruption, just on the human level. And not that his will was untainted before, as much as I think human Griffith was a genuine kind of idealist he was clearly no saint, but he had to be driven mad for a reason. Granted it's just an intuition, but I can't see his dream not changing in somewhat of a meaningful way throughout all of that.
 

Popnbake

Member
Yeah, I'm kind of scared for Rickert. That last panel seemed pretty ominous, with the look on Griffith's face and the clouds in the background.

I think Rickert will possibly team up with that old magic dude that used to serve Ganishka. (Can't remember his name.) That's the old guy that Erica met, right? He's probably Rickert's only chance of leaving the city alive.

Oh yeah, forgot about him.

Griffith is practically Jesus, he doesn't need to care. If he was still human or had more tenuous power it might be different, but for Griffith to punish Rickert his pride would have to have been affected somehow, and I'm not sure if that's possible. And if he really doesn't care, I think most people would take that at face value or consider it magnanimous. I mean it's not even like when some villains get all megalomaniacal and consider everyone beneath them, from Griffith's perspective that is something that's certainly true.

I could see this causing Charlotte some doubt down the line, though. Or Sonia, since she's a telepath and has been shown to be curious and she could ask Rickert about it. I kind of think Charlotte has to start seeing how the story doesn't really add up at some point, and having his former subordinates turn on him might serve as that final doubt that she can't really banish from her mind.

It's not Griffith or Charlotte that Rickert should be concerned with but if word of this gets out then he is done for. I can't see the soldiers or that medium keeping quiet over this.

He's living in a kingdom where the people see Griffith as a savior. I doubt they will see the slap as something nonchalant.
 

Veelk

Banned
I've tended to read those as being the same, like Griffith's individual unfettered will is like a microcosm for the Idea of Evil, or something, I tried to make that sound elegant but it didn't really work.

My thought was more that Griffith's motives must have been at one point 'humanistic', and subtracting that must change the landscape. But I'd also argue that his dream as offered to him after he went crazy had already gone through a similar kind of corruption, just on the human level. And not that his will was untainted before, as much as I think human Griffith was a genuine kind of idealist he was clearly no saint, but he had to be driven mad for a reason. Granted it's just an intuition, but I can't see his dream not changing in somewhat of a meaningful way throughout all of that.

The unique thing about Berserk and part of the major strength of it's writing is that despite the deep look we get into the mind of Griffith, he can be interpretted in a number of ways.

My interpretation was thus: Griffith always came off as somewhat of a manchild to me. He wanted to have a castle and be king even as a kid. I doubt that he was trying to break away from the bonds of class injustices or anything. His happy and carefree expression at the time suggested to me that it was similar to any of the hundreds of other daydreams any given child has over being a king, or a dragonslayer, or an astronaut, or whatever.

THe only difference is that Griffith never let go of that dream, while being the special prodigy who excelled at anything he tried. If anything, those two aspects of his personality drove each other. So Griffith tried to lead his idealized vision: Cool, intelligent, badass that was in total control of his emotions and unbound by petty morality. Femto existed long before the eclipse ever happened because always wanted to be him. But for all his talent....he couldn't. He had to prostitute himself to gain finances for his army and is ashamed. He feels immense guilt for the people he's killed to get as far as he has. And most importantly, he thought he kept a distance between himself and Caska, the foolish girl who loved him even though he barely paid her attention, and Guts, the hulking mercenary who he wants himself to believe is merely an extraordinary useful pawn. He didn't. He loved them, but was too immature to acknowledge that love for what it is.

Griffith was trying to be what an adolescent thought of as the ultimate badass, but he couldn't because for all his talents, he was human. And he when he found out that Guts won't merely be his pawn and Caska won't merely be his fangirl, that's what flipped his shit. He was hurt, emotionally, by the best friend he ever had leaving him, and did not know how to react. Then, he was humbled by the torture. He wasn't driven quite insane. He reacts thankfully to guts and everyone for saving him. He even has a daydream where he is just living out his life as a cripple, with Caska as his faithful wife serving him, and they have a kid. That's a far more humble life that he could accept....and then he sees Caska kissing Guts. She has found a real, meaningful relationship with someone who recuperates and his fantasy where Caska is just this serventile woman he can use for pleasure and comfort is shattered. And it's not because of the torture or how he looks or anything shallow. Caska still would have taken care of him, hell Caska still fought through 3 years of hell for him, but Guts is the one now loves. And not in sense that she idealizes him as a hero, but because they are in an equal partnership of mutual love and affection. She found something real with Guts, while Griffith never developed a meaningful relationship with Caska, because he wanted to continue living his fantasy of being a stoic badass that has women fawning over him, while he is cool and detached.

So, between Griffith the Commander and Griffith the Tortured, I feel the essence of his dreams were fairly the same. He wanted to be King of a whole country in the former, but when that's denied, he wants to be King of a Cottage. It's a smaller kingdom for him, but in both cases, he's thinking that he's going to get adoration just because he's that good, and doesn't need to work at a real relationship to get what he wants. In the former case, he tries to ignore the evidence that reality is contrary to his image (his shame, his guilt, his attachments) until he is unable, and in the latter, the first piece of contrary evidence he sees (the kiss between Guts and Caska) is enough to break his vision by itself.

Then Enters Conrad.

Conrad is a character that pushes him to the edge by using illusions to place him back into his fantasy zone. Oh, you feel guilty about all those people you killed to achieve your dream? Well, think about it like this...if you don't kill however many more you need to to get that big shiny castle, then all the people who are already dead have died for nothing! So, really, it's only right for you to slaughter whoever else you need to to get what you want, I feel. And what about this body. Yeah, it's pretty pathetic. No king is a king of he can't even stand up, right? Tell you what, I got a brand new body, just for you, for the itty bitty price of all your friends souls!

Conrad is actively working to erase any doubts and have him slip back into his fantasy zone as much as he can. Which is why the fact that this is the moment of Griffith's greatest hesitation is evidence of how much Griffith, against his will, has grown as a person. He doesn't entirely buy Conrad's arguments, however convenient they may be. But him coaxing his mind, reminding him of what an incredible badass he used to be...and could be again, if he only didn't give a shit about the people who cares about him is obviously still tempting. That's why I think, seeing guts in that particular moment, is what pushes him over the edge. At that moment, he is longing to be the Cool, Detached, Bishonen badass he used to be, and wondering why he isn't that....and here enters guts, and it's clear. He got attached. "You're the only one who made me forget my dream." This wasn't just in reference to the castle, but the entire self image that he strived to be. He cared...and he didn't want to. He had formed a real bond with Guts, and such a bond hurt his sense of superiority because by admitting he cared about gut, that's admiting he wasn't merely a pawn. He was his friend and that breaks the fantasy he wants to live in. It is in that moment where he forsaken his bonds for the final time and entered his idealized fantasy persona again.

And the Eclipse? The Eclipse didn't 'transform him' so much as made that state permanent. Femto is what Griffith always wanted to be: Capable, intelligent, powerful, unbound by morality or empathy, yet still adored as a hero by crowds of millions, for he is the Good King that has united the land in peace and prosperity, even finding a safe area for the demonic Apostles and establishing a peace between them and the rest of mankind. He is the ultimate badass of Griffith's adolescent mind. There is no longer any such thing that he feels as shame or guilt or attachments. I feel his rape of Caska is him reveling in that new found freedom to permanently stay in his sociopathic persona. And his actions henceforth....well, to address the original point of what his 'dream' is now, it's hard to say. All we can say now is that he is living the dream he always wanted. Perhaps he's doing it as part of a greater scheme, or pershaps he's merely reveling, similarly to his actions at the eclipse.

To the extent of his character development, certainly, he's transformed in many respects. Perhaps the more superficial aspects of his dream have changed, similar to how he was willing to go from being the ruler of a kingdom to merely a household, perhaps now that he's a godhand, he wants to be ruler of ethereal space or whatever. But I would say the essence of his dream, to just have the highest position that can be offered just because that's what he views as being 'the best', is the most consistant quality about him. Perhaps that's changed with Femto, but...we'll see.

But this is why Rickert striking Femto is important. Since his return, this is his first failure. This is the first time his fantasy has been falsified. This isn't like Guts or the Kushan emperor. Worthy enemies to be defeated are part of the fantasy of being a King. But Rickert, he wanted him to come back into the fold and he rejected him. The panels shown in this chapter are ambiguous as to how Griffith is reacting. He could not give a shit, or he might be a bit peeved. The whole 'hair hiding eyes' thing in emotional tense moments is a trope to hid character expressions to make their true feelings a mystery. And even knowing, we still can't use it as huge evidence for either or in judging Femto's personality, becuase....well, what Rickert did is badass, but it's just a slap, ultimately. It's not Guts crashing down the walls of Falconia and rendering him powerless. Rickert is small enough to ignore, whatever the true state of Femto's mind is. Certainly, it will suggest one thing or another (if the next chapter gives more insight into this), but it won't be conclusive for a long time yet.
 
The unique thing about Berserk and part of the major strength of it's writing is that despite the deep look we get into the mind of Griffith, he can be interpretted in a number of ways.

My interpretation was thus: Griffith always came off as somewhat of a manchild to me. He wanted to have a castle and be king even as a kid. I doubt that he was trying to break away from the bonds of class injustices or anything. His happy and carefree expression at the time suggested to me that it was similar to any of the hundreds of other daydreams any given child has over being a king, or a dragonslayer, or an astronaut, or whatever.

THe only difference is that Griffith never let go of that dream, while being the special prodigy who excelled at anything he tried. If anything, those two aspects of his personality drove each other. So Griffith tried to lead his idealized vision: Cool, intelligent, badass that was in total control of his emotions and unbound by petty morality, yet at the same timed adored by everybody. But for all his talent....he wasn't that. He had to prostitute himself to gain finances for his army and is ashamed. He feels immense guilt for the people he's killed to get as far as he has. And most importantly, he thought he kept a distance between himself and Caska, the foolish girl who loved him even though he barely paid her attention, and Guts, the hulking mercenary who he wants himself to believe is merely an extraordinary useful pawn. He didn't. He loved them, but was too immature to acknowledge that love for what it is.

Griffith was trying to be what an adolescent thought of as the ultimate badass, but he couldn't because for all his talents, he was human. And he when he found out that Guts won't merely be his pawn and Caska won't merely be his fangirl, that's what flipped his shit. He was hurt, emotionally, by the best friend he ever had leaving him, and did not know how to react. Then, he was humbled by the torture. He wasn't driven quite insane. He reacts thankfully to guts and everyone for saving him. He even has a daydream where he is just living out his life as a cripple, with Caska as his faithful wife serving him, and they have a kid. That's a far more humble life that he could accept....and then he sees Caska kissing Guts. She has found a real, meaningful relationship with someone who recuperates and his fantasy where Caska is just this serventile woman he can use for pleasure and comfort is shattered. And it's not because of the torture or how he looks or anything shallow. Caska still would have taken care of him, hell Caska still fought through 3 years of hell for him, but Guts is the one now loves. And not in sense that she idealizes him as a hero, but because they are in an equal partnership of mutual love and affection. She found something real with Guts, while Griffith never developed a meaningful relationship with Caska, because he wanted to continue living his fantasy of being a stoic badass that has women fawning over him, while he is cool and detached.

So, between Griffith the Commander and Griffith the Tortured, I feel the essence of his dreams were fairly the same. He wanted to be King of a whole country in the former, but when that's denied, he wants to be King of a Cottage. It's a smaller kingdom for him, but in both cases, he's thinking that he's going to get adoration just because he's that good, and doesn't need to work at a real relationship to get what he wants. In the former case, he tries to ignore the evidence that reality is contrary to his image (his shame, his guilt, his attachments) until he is unable, and in the latter, the first piece of contrary evidence he sees (the kiss between Guts and Caska) is enough to break his vision by itself.

Then Enters Conrad.

Conrad is a character that pushes him to the edge by using illusions to place him back into his fantasy zone. Oh, you feel guilty about all those people you killed to achieve your dream? Well, think about it like this...if you don't kill however many more you need to to get that big shiny castle, then all the people who are already dead have died for nothing! So, really, it's only right for you to slaughter whoever else you need to to get what you want, I feel. And what about this body. Yeah, it's pretty pathetic. No king is a king of he can't even stand up, right? Tell you what, I got a brand new body, just for you, for the itty bitty price of all your friends souls!

This is the moment of Griffith's greatest hesitation. But Conrad has been coaxing his mind, reminding him of what an incredible badass he used to be...and could be again, if he only didn't give a shit about the people who cares about him. That's why I think, seeing guts in that particular moment, is what pushes him over the edge. At that moment, he is longing to be the Cool, Detached, Bishonen badass he used to be, and wondering why he isn't that....and here enters guts, and it's clear. He got attached. "You're the only one who made me forget my dream." This wasn't just in reference to the castle, but the entire self image that he strived to be. He cared...and he didn't want to. He had formed a real bond with Guts, and such a bond hurt his sense of superiority because by admitting he cared about gut, that's admiting he wasn't merely a pawn. He was his friend and that breaks the fantasy he wants to live in. It is in that moment where he forsaken his bonds for the final time and entered his idealized fantasy persona again.

And the Eclipse? The Eclipse didn't 'transform him' so much as made that state permanent. Femto is what Griffith always wanted to be: Capable, intelligent, powerful, unbound by morality or empathy, yet still adored as a hero by crowds of millions, for he is the Good King that has united the land in peace and prosperity, even finding a safe area for the demonic Apostles and establishing a peace between them and the rest of mankind. He is the ultimate badass of Griffith's adolescent mind. There is no longer any such thing that he feels as shame or guilt or attachments. I feel his rape of Caska is him reveling in that new found freedom to permanently stay in his sociopathic persona.

And his actions henceforth....well, to address the original point of what his 'dream' is now, it's hard to say. To the extent of his character development, certainly, he's transformed in many respects. Perhaps the more superficial aspects of his dream have changed, similar to how he was willing to go from being the ruler of a kingdom to merely a household, perhaps now that he's a godhand, he wants to be ruler of ethereal space or whatever. But I would say the essence of his dream, to just have the highest position that can be offered just because that's what he views as being 'the best', is the most consistant quality about him. Perhaps that's changed with Femto, but...we'll see.

I like this. I don't agree with all of it (I didn't mean to suggest that Griffith was fighting class injustice, and I think his motives are a lot more complex than imposing a particular self-image, for example), but it's a good stuff.

Personally I think Griffith's dream took on a very different life with time. I think as a child or adolescent it was like a daydream he held onto, but the Griffith we meet when Guts joins seems different. To me at the root of Griffith's dream is a weird kind of foresight or intuition that breathes into the 'daydream' a life of its own. More than just being incredibly competent, or charismatic, he has a bit of the visionary or prophet in him. And to people with that sort of perspective, who see these strange forms or compelling synchronicities, the 'vision' ends up taking on a greater life than even their own, or the world they can really touch, and Griffith essentially says as much. Though his actions also often contradict that, because it isn't real in the way that those things are :p It also serves as a nice contrast to Guts, whom is very grounded within a concrete/real world.

You can see the part of it that is driven by ego, but his dream also seems like a strange kind of approach to self-sublimation. If he succeeds he will be doing what he was 'meant' to, or become his higher self. We do know that it's something that he wants, but within that want seems to be the desire to sacrifice himself to what will be. That is to say, that he seems to have some sense of a will beyond his own, and an attitude of servitude to a dream can be read as a way of manifesting a kind of cosmic will, like how the Emporer of China is meant to bridge heaven and earth. And I think this is a significant part of what his followers respond to, even if they may only get a vague sense of this 'prophetic' compulsion. If it were simply a mask that became real, I don't think he could get others to believe in his dream in quite the way that he does. It also makes Griffith at least twice as interesting as he would be otherwise, imo.

And I do think this makes a difference in terms of what I was trying to get at. I don't think Griffith's vision was a very concrete thing at all, but a kind of intuitive 'whole', an image that he sees 'out there' possessed of some truth or knowledge. 'Visions' are weird in this way, they always seem to come from outside of us, but they reflect us, and this connection isn't particularly clear to the person receiving them. I don't think the integrity of what that 'meant' to him in all of its myriad facets could have remained unchanged, in all of the ways that he was changed. I wish I had a way of saying this that didn't seem obfuscatory. I'd maybe relate it to something like Spinoza's idea of intuitive knowledge.
 

Dahbomb

Member
The latest Berserk chapter had me going:

Bo2BG.gif
 

JDSN

Banned
Rickert keeping that shit real, twice as awesome because he didnt do it out of grief or hate like Gutz would have, but just because he was his duty. You would think Griffith let that slide because he has some understanding to the situation at hand, but I think the guy is too far gone and so committed to this pathetic charade that will fall apart on its own that he has no choice but continue playing it because anything else would require introspection.
 
His goal has never changed though. It's always been about power. Maybe at first his intentions were fine, but they definitely warped as he came into more recognition and continued to warp.
His anger might have been understandable when Guts left, but it shouldn't have gone as far as it did. Guts staying might have changed things,
but it's pretty clear how weak Griffith is.

We all knew this as soon as Guts defeated him in one strike and left him in the dust. Griffith has a massive ego, likes to think of himself as an almighty person, but when reality caught up to him in the name of Guts his world came crashing down.

Honestly I see the same thing happening now. Griffith likes to believe that he is a God, a blessing to the people and saviour of Midlands but after what he has done to in reach such a place its pretty clear thats he is none of that. He will do anything.....ANYTHING to live his fantasy.

Just wait till Guts see's him again.

If they were alone then yeah, the scene was great but
Rickert just slapped Griffith aka Falcon of Light in front of the pope, the queen, soldiers, and a hidden loyal apostle.

For him expecting to walk away like nothing happened just didn't seem right.

Its certainly ominous with the hair in front of eyes reaction.

Btw where is Guts going on the boat again?
 

Yonafunu

Member
We all knew this as soon as Guts defeated him in one strike and left him in the dust. Griffith has a massive ego, likes to think of himself as an almighty person, but when reality caught up to him in the name of Guts his world came crashing down.

Honestly I see the same thing happening now. Griffith likes to believe that he is a God, a blessing to the people and saviour of Midlands but after what he has done to in reach such a place its pretty clear thats he is none of that. He will do anything.....ANYTHING to live his fantasy.

Just wait till Guts see's him again.

For all intents and purposes, he is. He has united humans and demons under him, he created the greatest city in the world and brought safety to the people. Now, of course this was after Griffith caused the World Transformation and the overlapping of the physical and astral planes setting monsters free on the world, but these events were in turn results of Ganishka's defeat. Regardless of the state of the world, Falconia, as far as we know at the moment, is a paradise and Griffith is it's King.

What if this is it? What if Griffith has reached his end goal and this is how the world will continue to be? What if the need for Griffith to spill any more blood has ended now that he has his Kingdom? What if this is actually humanity's paradise, no strings attached, no dark(er) side? What if it's now up to Guts to choose between getting his vengeance and thereby destroying this perfect world or letting it be? In a way this is already where it's going.
 
It's very difficult to have a read into the current Griffith.

From the broad perspective of what his dream entails, he's achieved it and more. It's pretty much unquestionable. But then, what are the cracks, if it exist at all, within the dream and fantasy of Griffith's kingdom?

How much of the human pettiness that was there in the human Griffith still exist in the current Griffith? Right now, it seems like there is none, aside from what external factor contributed by the Guts/Casca demon child that is still unknown.
 

JDSN

Banned
If they were alone then yeah, the scene was great but
Rickert just slapped Griffith aka Falcon of Light in front of the pope, the queen, soldiers, and a hidden loyal apostle.

For him expecting to walk away like nothing happened just didn't seem right.

I think in his mind he saw it as an opportunity to be perceived as benevolent and kind,
also he could use that moment to start a war with Elfheim.

It's very difficult to have a read into the current Griffith.

From the broad perspective of what his dream entails, he's achieved it and more. It's pretty much unquestionable. But then, what are the cracks, if it exist at all, within the dream and fantasy of Griffith's kingdom?

How much of the human pettiness that was there in the human Griffith still exist in the current Griffith? Right now, it seems like there is none, aside from what external factor contributed by the Guts/Casca demon child that is still unknown.

I think the fact that he is a god capable of bending causality to his will, which is essentially everything but Gutz, but still chooses to go through the whole trouble of reversing the eclipse, fighting a apostle king and shattering reality itself just to fulfill his relatively small dream lof owning a Kingdom shows that he is incredibly petty and very much human. The cracks are starting to show from this chapter already, Griffith will try his hardest to commit to this new life while knowing that there is people out there that know that his existence foul and illegitimate in the worst way.
 

RangerBAD

Member
I do agree with Veelk on a lot of that. It's right to say it remains to be seen about how Griffith would react to what Rickert did, but those were just my feelings. We know such an event would have bothered an earlier Griffith. I just feel like it might actually piss current Griffith off that such a tiny existence, compared to his self-imposed god image, would deny his very existence. Especially considering all the positive attention he is getting. It's that little itch that just annoys you just enough.

For all intents and purposes, he is. He has united humans and demons under him, he created the greatest city in the world and brought safety to the people. Now, of course this was after Griffith caused the World Transformation and the overlapping of the physical and astral planes setting monsters free on the world, but these events were in turn results of Ganishka's defeat. Regardless of the state of the world, Falconia, as far as we know at the moment, is a paradise and Griffith is it's King.

What if this is it? What if Griffith has reached his end goal and this is how the world will continue to be? What if the need for Griffith to spill any more blood has ended now that he has his Kingdom? What if this is actually humanity's paradise, no strings attached, no dark(er) side? What if it's now up to Guts to choose between getting his vengeance and thereby destroying this perfect world or letting it be? In a way this is already where it's going.

He's a devil that thinks he's a god. He has power but he isn't infallable. Charismatic figures, especially consider Fento is the embodiment of charisma, always gain a good following and at times may even seem to be in a positive light to onlookers, but many of them are hiding their true intentions and the very fact that the masses are oblivious to what Griffith is really doing and what he really is makes makes that true.

I think in his mind he saw it as an opportunity to be perceived as benevolent and kind,
also he could use that moment to start a war with Elfheim.

Yes, certainly he had to keep up his guise.
 

Yonafunu

Member
He's a devil that thinks he's a god. He has power but he isn't infallable. Charismatic figures, especially consider Fento is the embodiment of charisma, always gain a good following and at times may even seem to be in a positive light to onlookers, but many of them are hiding their true intentions and the very fact that the masses are oblivious to what Griffith is really doing and what he really is makes makes that true.

But what are his true intentions? What is he "really doing"? Everything he has done since he reincarnated has been good.
We know he wanted his own kingdom, which he got. Now what? What if this is the end of his ambition, what if he has reached the place he wanted to reach, and there's no (more) need for sacrifice?

Like I said, I expect this to be the final choice for Guts; to either kill Griffith and thereby destroy humanity's paradise, or to let it be and keep suffering in his hatred.
 

Veelk

Banned
But what are his true intentions? What is he "really doing"? Everything he has done since he reincarnated has been good.
We know he wanted his own kingdom, which he got. Now what? What if this is the end of his ambition, what if he has reached the place he wanted to reach, and there's no (more) need for sacrifice?

Like I said, I expect this to be the final choice for Guts; to either kill Griffith and thereby destroy humanity's paradise, or to let it be and keep suffering in his hatred.
The entire point of the God hand is to spread misery, so strengthen the God of Evil. It may be that Griffith has no more intentions to fuck shit up, but the Eclipse was an event that specifically molded him to a certain purpose by a being that sees the full reach of causality.

Wondering what Griffith intends to do now may be an interesting question from a character analysis point of view, but we do know his presence means bad things on the horizon. After the Eclipse, it's the only thing it can mean.
 

Yonafunu

Member
The entire point of the God hand is to spread misery, so strengthen the God of Evil. It may be that Griffith has no more intentions to fuck shit up, but the Eclipse was an event that specifically molded him to a certain purpose by a being that sees the full reach of causality.

Wondering what Griffith intends to do now may be an interesting question from a character analysis point of view, but we do know his presence means bad things on the horizon. After the Eclipse, it's the only thing it can mean.

If I remember correctly The Idea of Evil also told Griffith that he was the Chosen One and could do as he pleased, destroy humanity or liberate it. It's perfectly possible both of these options will end in suffering, but it wouldn't necessarily be of Griffith's will, which is primarily what we were talking about.

Causality only lead Griffith to becoming a God Hand, but doesn't control him anymore. The Idea said Griffith can control causality as well.

Edit: I'm going off the wiki here, since I can't find the chapter easily right now.
 
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