CartridgeBlower
Member
Does beating the game on 1999 mode give you the trophy for beating it on Hard as well?
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Bioshock Infinite | Official Spoiler Thread |
- Thread starter BruceLeeRoy
- Start date
You're right, and I don't like being spoiled either. However, I think plot twists can sometimes detract from a story, hence I can see a situation where the study may have merit.
I would argue that Infinite would be better written if the game's master thesis (constants and variables, etc.) was laid out in the beginning, making for a less obtuse and confusing experience, particularly regarding the dialogues between the Luteces.
Also, the theme of religion as a corrupting force would be stronger conveyed on an initial playthrough if you knew that Booker is Comstock from the beginning.
Of course, all these issues go away on subsequent playthroughs, plus you get to have your mind blown during the first play. The problem is that Infinite is not conducive to replays. It's not short enough to be casually re-watched like a movie, and it can't be selectively reread like a book. It's a 12+ hour game with very sparse save-points, and a lot of the time involves shooting disposable baddies, Commando style.
Anyway: I just replayed the final chapter to solidify my understanding, and now I possibly have another criticism to add. When Booker refuses to be baptized, this is supposed to be an example of a variable, right? But isn't it actually a constant in the context of the game, since the player has no option to accept the baptism? They should've given the player a choice. If the player took the baptism, you would see the resulting constant of Booker becoming Comstock, and you'd get to see his transformation and rise to power. You could easily replay the final chapter to get the other ending.
So not only would it fix the ludonarrative dissonance; it would also enrich the story.
When you're playing the sequence where Booker gets baptized and refuses, you're not making a new choice, you're basically reliving your life. In this sense, there are no variables at all in a single person's life since they don't get to make a choice twice. The variable across the multiverse is that Booker makes different choice in different worlds. The fact that the Booker you're currently playing as has already made his choice doesn't make it a constant. Elizabeth isn't exploring possibilities, she's just tagging along as Booker comes to understand his own life - and since it's a Booker, not a Comstock that you're playing as, it would make no sense for him to have memories of accepting the baptism.
This is reinforced by Elizabeth telling Booker that it's no good to delay things because it's a choice he's already made and they won't be able to move forward until he ultimately repeats that choice.
It doesn't enrich anything if the narrative's intention was to be a mystery.
A lot of things are constant within the context of our choices as gamers, but within the story and universe it's still a variable. Booker can accept the baptism or not. Liz can choose to smother him or not.
Unnecessary. The conclusion of the narrative involves Liz and Booker envoking a paradox with his death. We don't need to see Booker's transformation into Comstock since we already have so much knowledge on his future self already. I assume you're referring to giving us a choice in the ending tho. Maybe I've misread.
Ah, I get it now, I think. I forgot that the Booker we play as has technically already made the choice to refuse the baptism. I take back my criticism.
While I understand why born-again Booker became Comstock, I'm still interested in the how. Maybe it's better left to the imagination, but I think it would be fascinating to see the transformation. I hope it's one of the DLC; that would be awesome.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Where's this 122 number coming from you're talking on this page? Just bear the game now, reeling!
I finally got to play a game based on The Dark Tower, and I didn't even know it till the end!!!! How cool.
I finally got to play a game based on The Dark Tower, and I didn't even know it till the end!!!! How cool.
The coin toss scene early on as you're entering Columbia has 122 "heads" marked on the board, suggesting that they've tried this 122 times at that point. Not quite sure how that would work though as it suggests there'd need to be 122 different Columbias for them to try and overthrow Comstock in, although that's possible I suppose!
It is one possibility. The other one would be that since the Lutece twins, and later on Elizabeth too, seem to be able to move between universes, but also through time as well, they're simply grabbing a different Booker and pulling him into this particular Columbia instead of the last Booker.
To do that, they have to go back in time yet again, and since this time they're not doing anything with the last Booker who has presumably failed, he ends up not being pulled into Columbia after all and instead, the new Booker starts his quest. And the twins mark it on the coin flip board.
Can they move through time? Why wouldn't they just go back and stop themselves from having set the events in motion in the first place then? Or at least not have Booker sell his child.
pslayer666
Member
Don't forget to do so without using any of the Dollar Bill vending machines though.
I'm currently in the process of doing that and I'm having a blast. Playing it on normal wasn't really that challenging or fun.
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
Is that every vending machine or just a certain kind of the three?
prodystopian
Member
The dollar bill machines are the ones that allow you to buy health/ammo. So you can still use the upgrade machines, just not the restock ammo/health ones.
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
Oh, okay, well that's not too bad.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
I think they said they truly had to stop Comstock from ever being born at all, would be the only 'real solution' - so they go back to the central universe where Booker decides to take the baptism, and actually kill him then so Comstock is never born? both Unrepented Booker can live, though he doesn't sell Anna because there was no Comstock who comes calling from the other timeline for the baby in the first place.
They mentioned going back in time and "stopping" Comstock but the Lutece twins toss it aside as a simple "how far does one know when to go back?" i took that to mean they've tried various things but never figured out the right time/place to truly end the threat.
though how stopping Comstock from being born that one time truly affects all the other universes I don't know, unless they were just locally using the two we jump back/forth from.
Unless the one they jump to is the dark tower timeline!
This was probably already posted but who knows...
Lady Comstock and Alice Roosevelt
http://imgur.com/r/gaming/p1ZA6Jp
Lady Comstock and Alice Roosevelt
http://imgur.com/r/gaming/p1ZA6Jp
I'd like to think they saw messing with the past as being too risky. They can move anywhere, but it doesn't seem like they got the omnipotence. Removing Comstock from existence would create a paradox, and that's not something you gamble with.
Even with the paradox working out in their favor, there's additional moral/ethical issues. By taking out Comstock, Liz poofed infinite universes out of existence. Some had Comstock doing good work...others he was a tyrant. Doesn't matter, all gone. Not to mention, the people Comstock would've killed (through future Liz) aren't saved, they just cease to exist. Versions of them in other universes live on, but they always will. Comstock kills a finite number of people, Liz causes an infinite number to dissappear.
That's assuming they just disappear and don't just enter the universe's recycling bin for stuff that's exists but can't exist.
Pinko Marx
Banned
Just beat this game. Had to read a plot synopsis because so much stuff was thrown at me at once.
Still, awesome game, awesome story. I had dogged it at first because I thought the game was about Religion and American Exceptionalism and yaddayaddayadda but thats all just a backdrop for the multiverse plot line the game hints at throughout.
Props to Ken Levine.
Still, awesome game, awesome story. I had dogged it at first because I thought the game was about Religion and American Exceptionalism and yaddayaddayadda but thats all just a backdrop for the multiverse plot line the game hints at throughout.
Props to Ken Levine.
Thagomizer
Member
Why doesn't Booker recognize Lady Comstock as his wife that died in childbirth? It's pretty blatant that they are alternate reality versions of the same woman and he didn't blank out his wife's existence, just that his daughter survived childbirth.
Also, Undertow + Shock Jockey combo with Storm and Blood for Salt = hilariously OP. Grab fools, fry 'em, repeat. I think I died once after I fully upgraded those plasmids. Even the final fight with a billion Patriots and dudes in heavy armor was cake.
Throwing a Devil's Kiss into a group of enemies suspended with Bucking Bronco is also sooo satisfying with Storm. It's like a small nuke going off
Also, Undertow + Shock Jockey combo with Storm and Blood for Salt = hilariously OP. Grab fools, fry 'em, repeat. I think I died once after I fully upgraded those plasmids. Even the final fight with a billion Patriots and dudes in heavy armor was cake.
Throwing a Devil's Kiss into a group of enemies suspended with Bucking Bronco is also sooo satisfying with Storm. It's like a small nuke going off
Maybe they aren't the same person? Or maybe the two are dramatically different? We only have our speculation really.
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
Question: Is it possible that Booker is the Songbird? It isn't, right? It doesn't make sense to me but I've heard someone claim that the Songbird is Booker.
I got neither Storm nor Blood To Salt in my playthrough. I get that the gear is random so that players experience a different playthrough and it also increases re-play value but it becomes a game of luck. Some gear sucks and some is awesome.
I got neither Storm nor Blood To Salt in my playthrough. I get that the gear is random so that players experience a different playthrough and it also increases re-play value but it becomes a game of luck. Some gear sucks and some is awesome.
The possibilities are Infinite. There are some thematic similarities between Booker and Songbird, but no real foundation for it to be Booker. Maybe a Songbird-centric DLC will reveal more.
Various Artists
Banned
What if Booker and Elizabeth escaped to NY because Elizabeth didn't know the longitude and latitude of Paris. What would have happened when they reached NY? Has that ever been speculated?
Not knowing their history they would have married, Comstock would snatch himself a new Elizabeth who grows into Old Elizabeth and upon learning the truth about the incest decides to destroy NY.
Thagomizer
Member
I'm guessing the Luteces would show up before that point to dope-slap him in their usual manner.
Doesn't matter, the universes where Columbia exists no longer exist. If our Liz managed to escape Columbia, someone else's Liz wouldn't and they'd be the ones who drown Booker. As long as something has a chance of occurring, it will.
I hope so. Can't believe still nothing from the first DLC.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
To be fair, they started after shipping the game. Most DLC's we hear about start before that.
supaman900s
Member
Finished this in 2 days, best rental I've ever gotten. Will still buy the game once it finally drops in price.
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
It dropped in price a long time ago. I picked it up for Xbox 360 for £26 more than a month ago. With free worldwide delivery!
Meh. Just beat the game and even after reading a summary, I still think there are plot holes.
So there are infinite universes, right? Based on choices we make, not chance. I got that. But going by that logic there are so many choices that every person makes every day that there must be 100% chance of Comstock coming to fruition another way other than the baptism. So killing Booker at that one instance wouldn't do squat.
And why do they care? It's not their universe anymore. They killed Comstock in their universe, Columbia is bye-bye, and all is well. I just don't understand why they care. They should just go to Paris and live their lives. But no, for some reason they basically kill themselves as they know it so they can go back to before this ever happened.
I don't know, I don't like it. It's the same reason I don't like time travel. Too many loopholes, too much "wait a second". It all seems rather pointless.
Still really liked the game, but that ending was kinda dumb.
So there are infinite universes, right? Based on choices we make, not chance. I got that. But going by that logic there are so many choices that every person makes every day that there must be 100% chance of Comstock coming to fruition another way other than the baptism. So killing Booker at that one instance wouldn't do squat.
And why do they care? It's not their universe anymore. They killed Comstock in their universe, Columbia is bye-bye, and all is well. I just don't understand why they care. They should just go to Paris and live their lives. But no, for some reason they basically kill themselves as they know it so they can go back to before this ever happened.
I don't know, I don't like it. It's the same reason I don't like time travel. Too many loopholes, too much "wait a second". It all seems rather pointless.
Still really liked the game, but that ending was kinda dumb.
They killed Comstock in a universe, not their universe. Technically, the universe both Liz and Booker were born in don't have a Comstock. The universe they spend the first half of the game in, they never kill him. It's implied that that universe's Comstock was baptized on a Lutece=Female branch, whereas it's hinted Player Booker's baptism was on a Lutece=Male branch (the entire statue changing gender thing). Even at the end of game, the Comstock who abducts Anna may very well still be alive, allowing the entire game to play out as normal...
Wait, I'm pretty sure I just made things worse...
The ending doesn't hold up well to scrutiny. That's all there is to really say about it. If choice creates branches, does a timetravellers choice create branches as well? Does that mean Liz's choice to drown Booker creates a branch where she decides to not drown Booker?
I can get what Liz's goal was...by the end of the game, she was a murderer, found out she was stolen from her father, was locked away in a tower.....she wanted to undo all of that, go back and remove comstock's influence from her life, so she could live it as it was meant to be lived. Whether that was actually achieved...who knows.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
The idea is that Elizabeth, for whatever reason, gained some sort of quantum omnipotence/ omniscience. She can't just say "well Comstock is dead, whatever" because she now can perceive every reality she chooses to, and will always see and know Comstock is out there. The baptism she takes Booker to is some sort of nexus that all realities involving Booker from that point on branch out from, which is why there are multiple Elizabeths there I'm guessing. There can't be any branches because Booker drowning is now a constant across every single universe. It's confusing and sort of overly-convenient, but that's the best I could come up with.
Anyway, does Elizabeth's character arc make no sense? At first she only says she's "read about" Comstock, then seeing posters of him was the first time she saw him. Suddenly she's shocked and angry that Comstock might be her father, even though she barely knows anything about him and why he's terrible. Then the Ghost Mom section doesn't make sense either because she keeps talking about Lady Comstock like she was some neglectful mother while Elizabeth was growing up. She says "I hated you," but she had no idea Lady Comstock could possibly have been her mother until again, after she had left her tower.
Anyway, does Elizabeth's character arc make no sense? At first she only says she's "read about" Comstock, then seeing posters of him was the first time she saw him. Suddenly she's shocked and angry that Comstock might be her father, even though she barely knows anything about him and why he's terrible. Then the Ghost Mom section doesn't make sense either because she keeps talking about Lady Comstock like she was some neglectful mother while Elizabeth was growing up. She says "I hated you," but she had no idea Lady Comstock could possibly have been her mother until again, after she had left her tower.
Some sort of nexus? That just sounds like something made up to explain a plot hole. Not exactly the best defense. One of my larger problems with the games plot is that it leaves out a good number of puzzle pieces, but allows people to explain them away via some combination of "Liz is a god" or "infinite universes". For example...
Liz's story arch. With infinite universes, anything that can happen, will. Since our entire journey in-game is orchestrated by the Luteces, maybe they just brought us to the Columbia that would leave us with the greatest chance of success. Namely, one where Liz was largely ignored by her "parents" and thus would be likely to help us.
Like 15 minutes.
Literally 15 or like an hour? If it's only like 15-30 minutes I'll finish it off before I head out to work.
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
15 minutes + two hours of pondering on life and reading through the spoiler thread.
There's 15+ the game's ending. I'd just get ready for work if I were you.
EDIT- I'm so late that you probably are at work already, haha.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
It's not necessarily a plot hole. The idea is that there are constants and variants. Booker's baptism is presumably already a constant, that branches off into Comstock or Booker. Elizabeth and Booker are changing the constant to Booker dying. All realities intersect at this point, and no matter how they branch off, Booker is dead. Since there are multiple Elizabeths, and Elizabeth isn't so stupid as to think drowning just one Booker will stop every Comstock, we have to assume this is some kind of singular event across all universes. Except then the after credits scene mucks everything up. Though the game definitely doesn't do a good job explaining itself and leaves way too much to assumption. AD is really the only thing that's adequately explained within the game.
That doesn't explain Elizabeth's erratic behavior. She was ignored by her "parents," she didn't even know they were her parents because she never met them. But then when she finds out, she first acts like it's awful that Comstock is her father (it would be, but at that point in the game she wouldn't know why because Comstock hasn't said or done anything against her and Booker yet), and then later acts like she knew Lady Comstock her whole life and thought she was this horrible, neglectful mother. Her spite makes sense, but the whole exchange with Ghost Mom outside Comstock House doesn't make sense.
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
Absolutely incredible, though maybe you should have posted them in the OT instead of the spoiler thread.
That would spoil story locations for new players.
Yeah, that's why I only posted the screens here and in the thread where people who played all three are debating whether Infinite trumps the original. Although, there aren't any actual plot spoilers in the set, which I did on the off-chance someone peruses the thread against their better judgment.
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
Wrong thread.
Hahaha, OMG. "Official spoiler thread". The irony!