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Bioshock Infinite | Official Spoiler Thread |
- Thread starter BruceLeeRoy
- Start date
vas_a_morir
Banned
I totally missed that.
The One Who Knocks
Member
This kind of seems like an oversight to me. Surely there should be two Elizabeths in the timeline and the Elizabeth we follow should suffer cognitive dissonance? There was never a mention of what happened to that timeline's original (other than that she was moved to Comstock House). Maybe somebody else has an answer; I have no idea.
EDIT: Unless she's immune from cognitive dissonance which I could accept but why there is only one Elizabeth I have no idea.
MuddyDonut
Member
I wouldn't call Bioshock Infinite genius, but I really liked it. Sucks that Spec Ops handled stuff better than this game though. Come to think of it... Didn't Bio2 handle the choices better? You could just walk away from situations and shit like that, if I remember correctly.
So when I played the ending for the first time and I could sort of see it all coming together before finally realising what would happen at the end, I kept waiting.
I was waiting for that final moment with Booker and Liz, not necessarily a bunch of dialogue but just a hug or something. Something to say that Booker has finally come to terms with the atrocities he has committed and knows what needs to be done, and that of all the bad things Booker had done in the world in pursuit of his goals Elizabeth was the one good thing he brought in. For Liz, despite learning of everything her father is, and what he did, (the player Booker, not Comstock) and the God like powers she has, he was still her father who made some terrible mistakes but still loved her and she him.
I feel like the ending would have been a bit more climactic with just a touch more of interaction of the characters as father and daughter. But that is just me.
I was waiting for that final moment with Booker and Liz, not necessarily a bunch of dialogue but just a hug or something. Something to say that Booker has finally come to terms with the atrocities he has committed and knows what needs to be done, and that of all the bad things Booker had done in the world in pursuit of his goals Elizabeth was the one good thing he brought in. For Liz, despite learning of everything her father is, and what he did, (the player Booker, not Comstock) and the God like powers she has, he was still her father who made some terrible mistakes but still loved her and she him.
I feel like the ending would have been a bit more climactic with just a touch more of interaction of the characters as father and daughter. But that is just me.
The Xtortionist
Member
Becoming clearer but I'm still a bit confused. Which timeline does Booker return to after speaking to old Elizabeth? If it was the martyr timeline, wouldn't there be two Elizabeths in the same timeline? If it's a different timeline, how did our Elizabeth get there?
28 Posts Later
Member
The Companion Cube is a great example, thanks. When pondering examples I was too focused on purely mechanical implementation [such as The Walking Dead's use of gameplay to display specific emotion to the player].
Im currently replaying Bioshock...
The part in Fort Frolick where you hear the Songbird sound is REALLY surreal. Like, you know its obviously not something they knew about back then. But the fact that its there, regardless of what the reason was (coincidence?) is really something. Incredible to go back to after finishing Infinite.
And Bioshock is just as incredible now as it was then, don't feel too restricted by the lack of dual wielding plasmids/weapons.
Amazing how Irrational have bookended this generation with both of these games, both legendary in terms of quality.
The part in Fort Frolick where you hear the Songbird sound is REALLY surreal. Like, you know its obviously not something they knew about back then. But the fact that its there, regardless of what the reason was (coincidence?) is really something. Incredible to go back to after finishing Infinite.
And Bioshock is just as incredible now as it was then, don't feel too restricted by the lack of dual wielding plasmids/weapons.
Amazing how Irrational have bookended this generation with both of these games, both legendary in terms of quality.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Yeah its a pretty incredible feat.
It's believed it's the Martyr timeline, but no one knows where their Elizabeth is. As long as she was in that dimension though, she would've acquired the same omnipotence once the siphon was destroyed.
Still, it's interesting to think about...in the room with the Siphon diarama in the airship, there's a bronze wall-sculpture of Liz with her scissors. He "saw" Liz stab Fitzroy, yet he at some point he knew his Liz was locked away. Could he have interpreted that "prophecy" as "they're gonna break her out" and focused his defenses on protecting her? Could the Vox revolution only succeed because of that (and such allowed us to succeed as well?)
chixdiggit
Member
Finally able to read this thread. Amazing game. Level design, sound, story, combat, all amazing. Ending pretty much blew my mind. Would love to read this game in novel form.
Elizabeth was still in her timeline. She didnt die, no new folds in time were created.
Booker dies when Songbird throws him into that house. He comes back into a version of that martyr timeline.
I'm interested to read an explanation on when the huge time lapse happens. Elizabeth is old when Booker finally gets to her again.
My interpretation is that the fog Booker is walking through on the bridge is his reoccurring spawn point.
Elizabeth says he has not been able to get to her because Songbird stops him everytime. So I'm understanding that Booker has been trying for years and years and meeting the same end (unseen) with Songbird killing him.
Therefore the winter timeline he walks into when he finally gets to Comstock house is the timeline that Elizabeth finally finds a way to distract the Songbird. She hands Booker the card with the instructions for controlling Songbird.
* I think the reason that Songbird is distracted is that Elizabeth has sent him to attack New York. She doesn't seem happy with herself in that moment*
She then creates a door back to the same timeline (or mirror of it) without the major time lapse.
Booker dies when Songbird throws him into that house. He comes back into a version of that martyr timeline.
I'm interested to read an explanation on when the huge time lapse happens. Elizabeth is old when Booker finally gets to her again.
My interpretation is that the fog Booker is walking through on the bridge is his reoccurring spawn point.
Elizabeth says he has not been able to get to her because Songbird stops him everytime. So I'm understanding that Booker has been trying for years and years and meeting the same end (unseen) with Songbird killing him.
Therefore the winter timeline he walks into when he finally gets to Comstock house is the timeline that Elizabeth finally finds a way to distract the Songbird. She hands Booker the card with the instructions for controlling Songbird.
* I think the reason that Songbird is distracted is that Elizabeth has sent him to attack New York. She doesn't seem happy with herself in that moment*
She then creates a door back to the same timeline (or mirror of it) without the major time lapse.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
So when during the ending does Elizabeth lose the pendant on her choker? I noticed it's not there during the drowning at the end.
thebaroness
Member
So... I know people are very high on BS:I right now, and thus this won't be a popular opinion... but I feel like it was a bunch of pretentious wankery that is only being lauded as genius because our medium has so few "big budget" examples of real avante garde thinking/narrative.
The entire Rapture bit felt like pandering, and worse, felt like a self-aware Ken Levine recognizing that he has been telling the exact same story, moderately well, for more than a decade now.
In the realm if "multiple-world-theory" themed sci-fi, this is merely "me too" fiction, and as a commentary on player agency it is Levine repeating himself, while his betters have moved on and are working on ways where player agency PRECISELY means something to building a shared post-modern story between author and player.
Ironically, I got Spec Ops for free preordering this, and felt it was a massively superior exercise in game narrative. And hell... it even had pop songs in it too.
Bioshock Infinite has about the same appeal as the God-awful film, The Butterfly Effect, and is only held to a different standard as it it a video-game.
Edit: Or Donnie Darko (also ironically with a Tears for Fears cover) now that I think about it. In fact the more I think about Infinite's ending the less impressed I am.
I agree with you that it's not a terribly original story idea, as we've had similar plot lines in episodes of Futurama to start with. But I don't that that makes it a BAD narrative. It's just not the second coming of gaming Jesus that some people might claim. It's because in a medium where story is so lacking, Infinite's story DOES seem unique and fresh. On the other hand, if you read many sci-fi novels it's rather easy to predict. Where Infinite shines is its art direction and atmosphere. Even you, who seem pissed off by the game can't deny that.
Also, are you hating on Donnie Darko?
Not cool man. Not cool.
28 Posts Later
Member
I assumed it was meant to indicate it was a different Elizabeth as there's a dialogue section just before you step through the final door that features the pendant promptly ["Are you sure this is what you want?"], seemingly attempting to draw the players attention to it.
Gold_Loot
Member
I'm replaying Bioshock myself, and I happen to be in fort frolic as well. Playing with a good pair of headphones, I was geting frustrated trying to hear the sound myself, but to no avail. It was only when I was standing in the theatre when the game was real silent, I could hear it in the far distance. It really is bizzare! It actually gave me a chill. A uniqe experience for sure.
What a ride these games have been. I really do hope you guys and gals go to ft frolic and hear it for yourself.
Who would have thought that some of the best narrative came from shooters this gen?
PowderedToast
Junior Member
Jibbajabbawockky
Member
Oh, I know. And her being distant in the end with the weird "smother" comment sort of makes sense when you go back and hear this voxophone from Old Elizabeth.
I guess its that despite messing up by selling Anna, Booker always realized he was wrong and tried to get her back. He goes through no small effort to try and get her back and save her. That has to count for something, right? I mean, its your father and then you're placed in a situation where you're both basically about to commit suicide. Just some little emotional moment would have been a nice touch, either with "your" version of Elizabeth outside the lighthouse door or maybe with the single Elizabeth at the baptism before all the different versions show up- just like a hug or something. Something akin to the good ending to Bioshock 1- it could still be Booker dying but just put a little more human emotion into that scene. Instead it seems overly cold and clinical, which makes it seem more focused on the twist as opposed to the fact that both Booker/Comstock and Elizabeth are dying there.
Yeah. I was kind of surprised by that whole transformation actually. From the limited marketing I followed of the game, Elizabeth always seemed to be portrayed as the early version you see of her in the game, being kind of naive and bubbly. Yet pretty quickly you see her whole outlook shift. When I was playing, I thought the Comstock House stuff was actually going to be the end of the game, since going to Old Elizabeth completely broken and cynical seemed like it completed her transformation as a character. I actually thought she might kill herself and fall off whatever ledge she was standing on. Then I realized that whole thing was in a tear.
Yeah, I completely agree. Just some little moment for some emotional catharsis to reflect on everything before basically wiping themselves from the face of existence.
Damn, Bruce. You killed it with this thread. I wanted to stay out of all of the discussion and figure out some stuff by myself so this is my first venture in here. I was definitely right about some things but this cleared up my few lingering questions. It really blows my mind how well they established the rules for the dimensional travel and how everything pans out.
rohlfinator
Member
$$$
It's implied that Comstock had a large group of followers prior to building Columbia, and if he was already taking in half their wealth as a "tithe", he's probably been filthy rich for quite some time.
Well he never really "tried" to get her back. To him, Elizabeth was nothing more than dollar signs...at first anyways.
Honestly, I think the lack of any remorse, or emotion was just to emphasize how numb booker was from all of the occurrences. The realization of it all at the end, just a cold heavy feeling inside.
Nothing Booker says or do can fix it. And now, because of his fuckup, his Daughter has to sacrifice not only her fuck up dad, but herself as well.
Would a sorry really make the situation any better for her? Would a hug really make her feel any much better? It would've been pointless.
I kind of compare it to having a family member, say your brother murdering a person. You meet him in jail during a visit, what would you say to him? What would there be to say?
Only silence would ensue most likely, and a cold hard look of depression and disappointment.
theBoatGuy
Neo Member
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=136603703
The reflections in Song Bird's eyes when you are rescueing Elizabeth reminds me of the neon lights of Rapture...Anyone else have the same thought?
The reflections in Song Bird's eyes when you are rescueing Elizabeth reminds me of the neon lights of Rapture...Anyone else have the same thought?
AHappyPanda
Member
Told to bring my question here from the other OT
Is it ever addressed in the game, in the marketing, or even out of Ken's mouth that his debt is a gambling one? IDK why, but him selling his baby because of money just doesn't fit right with his character in my mind. For how much conviction he had to save Elizabeth, especially near the end of the game where he had a "damn the debt, I'm saving the girl" attitude it doesn't quite fit for me. I also don't think that attitude can be explained away by him having "mixed" memories of Liz being Anna since Booker doesn't know anything about the alternate realities til right near the end.
Is it ever addressed in the game, in the marketing, or even out of Ken's mouth that his debt is a gambling one? IDK why, but him selling his baby because of money just doesn't fit right with his character in my mind. For how much conviction he had to save Elizabeth, especially near the end of the game where he had a "damn the debt, I'm saving the girl" attitude it doesn't quite fit for me. I also don't think that attitude can be explained away by him having "mixed" memories of Liz being Anna since Booker doesn't know anything about the alternate realities til right near the end.
Booker mentions it. I think it was to Elizabeth actually. Basically says "I gambled and fell into debt" after Wounded Knee.
I think it was to Elizabeth, but I could be wrong.
Well you have to realize.
Booker was a fucked up man at that point of his life. He came back scarred from Wounded Knee after all of his murders.
His wife than dies during child birth when he has Anna.
He gets kicked out of the pinkerton agency due to his growing alcoholism..and began to gamble in order to pay the bills.
His daughter was basically his last priority in life at that point. Obviously he regrets that.
vas_a_morir
Banned
Yeah, they purchased his marker and strong-armed him into giving them the child as payment.
As for his motivations for selling Anna, I was thinking that maybe it was sort of like adoption? Maybe he didn't feel fit to raise Anna because of his personal problems and inner demons. With the gambling and drinking and all that.
Though even knowing that, he does regret it instantly and try to go back on the deal with Comstock. He's there in the alley trying to literally pull her away from Comstock as he's heading through the tear (causing Anna/Liz to lose her finger in the process). So he certainly wasn't completely at peace with his decision.
Though even knowing that, he does regret it instantly and try to go back on the deal with Comstock. He's there in the alley trying to literally pull her away from Comstock as he's heading through the tear (causing Anna/Liz to lose her finger in the process). So he certainly wasn't completely at peace with his decision.
piratepwnsninja
Member
I agree with you that it's not a terribly original story idea, as we've had similar plot lines in episodes of Futurama to start with. But I don't that that makes it a BAD narrative. It's just not the second coming of gaming Jesus that some people might claim. It's because in a medium where story is so lacking, Infinite's story DOES seem unique and fresh. On the other hand, if you read many sci-fi novels it's rather easy to predict. Where Infinite shines is its art direction and atmosphere. Even you, who seem pissed off by the game can't deny that.
Also, are you hating on Donnie Darko?
Not cool man. Not cool.
He just dislikes the "it's a superhero movie" subculture around Donnie Darko is all, not the movie itself.
And we actually talked about the art and atmosphere and he agrees that both of those are fantastic.
It was just straight up adoption/abandoment. He already lost his wife who died giving birth to anna so he most likely had some level of resentment about it all. Mix that with a big ass debt and a drunk and boom.
It's crazy because like someone said, your basically selling her twice in the game. As a baby and later as "liz"
after the credits when he wakes up he is looking at his desk while getting up and you can see race track tickets on the desk all of them crossed out as losers..
My belief is that he remembers what happened as a dream and that is why he rushes to anna
Just listened to one of the voxphones from Rebel Vox Booker and his attempt to rescue Elizabeth was immediately borked, monument island was evacuated completely before Booker's arrival, and Elizabeth was moved to Comstock's fortress.
I assume Booker sought out the Vox and enlisted to find and get Elizabeth under those circumstances.
I assume Booker sought out the Vox and enlisted to find and get Elizabeth under those circumstances.
AHappyPanda
Member
Hmm, I wish the debt was something less tangible and literal than money, like an eye for an eye situation, I feel that'd fit better all things considered. They could've tied something into his awful experience at Wounded Knee and used that as the basis for a "blood" debt or something.
Oh well, still awesome game.
Oh well, still awesome game.
As lame as that would be, it would also make the most sense lol.
Escape Goat
Member
But its more tragic when Booker trades his daughter for 30 pieces of silver. Its a trade made out of desperation and not at all equitable (not that you could put a price on a baby).
AHappyPanda
Member
Sure it's more tragic, but when you think about what you do as a player controlling Booker through the entirety of the game and again the absolute conviction he has to save Elizabeth, regardless of debt, towards the end before he finds out about the realities, it's sort of hard to think a man like that would give his daughter up because of gambling debts.
Edit : It's just a disconnect for me, but it probably doesn't bother too many other players. People who know real people with real gambling problems may have a different perspective.
It wasn't solely because of gambling debts.
He just didn't need her anymore. His wife died, he had no job. He was a utter train wreck himself. She was basically a 3rd wheel that he didn't need anymore, and probably thought she would be better of with those people instead of him.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Its not about gambling debts.
Its about him being a horrific person and the atrocities he commits at Wounded Knee. Those actions push him to one of two outcomes:
1)Justification:Comstock
2)Acceptance:Booker
Unfortunately with acceptance comes a complete loss of self worth further impacted by the death of his wife. Its not about gambling bets at all. He doesn't feel worthy of his daughter. Elizabeth becomes his redemption.
Thanks man
AHappyPanda
Member
I completely understand the meaning behind his rescue of Elizabeth and self-redemption and how Booker was a broken man and all that. My only sticking point is that the catalyst for all of this is because of a gambling debt. I'm not real sure if I buy into him feeling unworthy of his daughter either. I'd buy more into Anna being a point of resentment for him/constant reminder of his deceased wife. IDK, for how grand and complex everything else is in the game, it seems odd that it just comes down to him owing money.
I may be distilling it down too much, but that's how it comes off to me.
this song is heaven: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4cWPKRhwIc
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
I guess it comes down to if you see the gambling debt as a catalyst or not. I personally dont at all. I think it has very little to do with the choices he makes. He comes back from Wounded Knee a truly broken man and then somehow gets enough self respect to find a woman to love him but when she dies its just too much and he can't come back from it.
Jest Chillin
Member
The time period needs to be accounted for as well. Not only is he an alcoholic and gambling addict who's in a deep depression.. he's left alone as a single father in a period where men didn't do the child rearing at all. There's no way that he didn't feel completely out of his depth. I think that's reflected quite well in that the scenes shown where he's at his desk in the office and she's in a separate barren room all alone with the door closed as well.
FlutterPuffs
Member
Well first he could be drunk, and that impair his judgement.
Even if not so, I could empathise. There's many things I've done in the past that I regret and kick myself now. Not as bad as selling a baby of course, but sometimes you're just so broke and feel like shit that you feel you're willing to do anything.
And hey, that daughter of yours, she might be better off with someone else. You can't even afford to pay for her milk.
disappeared
Banned
That song. Man. I've been listening to old recordings of it lately.
BigJonsson
Member
.....
Holy shit at the ending, I don't even know what just happened lol
I figured after all the god talk in Emporia the rapture would happen and everything would fall into the ocean and become the city of rapture
And seeing rapture for a bit made me remember how awesome that place was in Bioshock 1
What choices in the game affect events later in the game? Any?
Holy shit at the ending, I don't even know what just happened lol
I figured after all the god talk in Emporia the rapture would happen and everything would fall into the ocean and become the city of rapture
And seeing rapture for a bit made me remember how awesome that place was in Bioshock 1
What choices in the game affect events later in the game? Any?