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Bioshock Infinite | Official Spoiler Thread |

Who's The Archangel again? I always thought it was the Lutece.

That's what I thought, but then I figured why would Lutece tell Comstock he needs a child of his line? Because it's only Elizabeth that leads Columbia to attack New York and always will be?

Question.

Why is snowing in Comstock's house?

Because when Booker crosses the bridge to Comstock house, he enters a tear opened by old Elizabeth into 1984.
 
That's what I thought, but then I figured why would Lutece tell Comstock he needs a child of his line? Because it's only Elizabeth that leads Columbia to attack New York and always will be?



Because when Booker crosses the bridge to Comstock house, he enters a tear opened by old Elizabeth into 1984.

And the roof is broken and open to the skies. Imagery!
 

big_z

Member
Currently going through the giantbomb video. The talk about when the baptism took place fixes one of the things that has been bugging me.

It happens right after wounded knee. If he goes through with it he becomes comstock and never has a child. Eventually comstock needs a heir to his city but his penis is broken so he uses the technology to see the version of himself, booker, that didnt get baptised. Booker is a deadbeat but with a child. So comstock makes booker an offer which would help both their problems(comstock gets a child, booker erases his debts) but booker has second thoughts last minute and ends up too late. This causes booker to fall into deeper depression and carve his hand. At some point Lutece returns having seen that comstock having the girl destroys the world and makes booker the same offer. He will get his daughter back and it will stop comstock from scorching the earth but during the jump into comstocks timeline his memory is garbled.



I don't know if this has been posted before, but I thought this video nicely summed up some of the stuff Infinite got wrong (mostly gameplay wise). After letting the game sink in for a week now I feel the same way, especially regarding the content that got cut from the final game, and the gameplay from the previous games being better overall.

Everything Bioshock Infinite Gets Wrong

I watched this expecting something horribly thought out like most youtube critics and came away surprised that he hit pretty much every issue i had with the game. Really well done.
 
Try listening to the first video link with headphones on.

I find it hard to believe he even had the concept for Infinite (let alone that particular event) in his mind at the time but how do you explain that? Why would they put that in there?

BTW, that link in the OP has some incredible pics, good job.
 

Lakitu

st5fu
All this stuff about content being cut, do we know anything specific? I did read one artist's blog and he said alot of cool ideas were scrapped from the Finkton part of the game.
 

MormaPope

Banned
I wonder how many people have actually played Bioshock in recent days.

I feel so many people have this "image" of what Bioshock was, and honestly should just replay it.

I bought a ps3 copy for myself during the holiday season at bestbuy. It was SOOOO disappointing.

I know all of locations and all of the narrative, so it was incredibly dull, especially when relying just on the gameplay to keep you entertained.

It's clunky, and just standard fair overall. Seriously guys, PLAY IT AGAIN.

Also, almost every level is one giant fetch quest. Fuck, Neptunes Bounty, find a camera for old Mr. Peachy before he can let you into the submarine bay.

So you go to various parts of Neptune Bounty find a camera, NOW, you have to take pictures all of sudden of Splicers for Mr. Peachy! Yay.

Or how about Arcadia? Oh NOEEEE toxic gas has been released by Mr. Ryan, we got to find a way to stop it! So now we have to take the dead lady Lazarus Project, collect all the missing pieces and put it together to get rid of the gas! YAY!

Oh, now Fort Frolic! Oh shit a crazy artsy guy wants us to all of a sudden finish his masterpiece. He won't let us get to Ryan don't chayaknow? So now we have to go through all of these levels taking various death pictures to help Cohen put his masterpiece together! YAY!!!!!

Oh hephustus! Oh shit, Ryan has Hephustus on self destruct! We have to turn off all of the blowup pieces so we won't die! YAY!

I mean come on now. Bioshock was nothing BUT fetch quests..but for some reason when it happens in Infinite it's like UGH WORST GAME EVER!! DEVS HOW CAN YOU DO DIS SHIT MAN!

Just feel like there are incredible double standards when it comes to Infinite's flaws, and Bioshock flaws.

In that video the dude also doesn't list or talk about any of Bioshock 1's story stumbles or how the narrative completely falls apart. Or how the potential of being in a ruined city under the sea amounts to killing drug addicts and chasing after drug mules.

Bioshock 1's atmosphere and environment are still great, everything else hasn't aged well or wasn't really that great to begin with. I absolutely loved the options and approaches to combat, but the actual combat was extremely clunky.
 

MormaPope

Banned
Rapture wasn't subtle, the origins and meaning behind Rapture wasn't subtle. The events and experiences in Infinite are much more subtle and the player isn't bonked over the head over and over with a story beat or plot line until they understand it 100%.

Subtlety is something this industry is lacking in tenfold, people hate being confused, people hate having unanswered questions or certain elements not being expanded on to death. A believable world is one where you can create answers through your own observations instead of an audio log detailing every last piece of info for the player.

I don't need things to be spelled out for me to think a fictional world is a believable place, even then is making a world believable really more important than the soul or meaning behind the place?
 

Fjordson

Member
What sucks is that it's probably going to be 5-6 six years until we're going to see a new game by Ken Levine :/
Yeah, this is unfortunate. I'm already anxious at the thought of another Irrational game with Levine at the helm. His games are pretty special in my eyes.

All this stuff about content being cut, do we know anything specific? I did read one artist's blog and he said alot of cool ideas were scrapped from the Finkton part of the game.
This also fascinates me. Hope some more info on all of that comes out one way or another eventually.

I'm curious about the sort of political battle angle they had. Seemed to be the focus as recently as 2011 when they showed it off at E3. They had a younger Comstock and seemed to suggest he was one of multiple politicians vying for control of Columbia. Which could have been very interesting.

358px-Comstock_Banner.png


Another politician running it seems was Saltonstall. He was the bald guy from the very first demo shown a few years ago. In the final game, he's merely a name on the board of Founders scalps taken by the Vox. Would love to find out more about the founders other than Comstock and Fink in a DLC.

I've seen Levine talking about an earlier idea that the battle for Columbia would be between "technologists and luddites" but I haven't really read up on that yet.

There's also a decent amount of early concept art in the Infinite art book showing a much darker Columbia than the one we got in the final game. I'm glad we got what we did in the finished product, but the darker city looks great as well, if not somewhat similar to the dark and derelict atmosphere of Rapture.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
When did Booker get transported to Comstock's universe?

I didn't realize this was explicitly shown in the ending of BioShock Infinite until watching Giant Bomb's Spoilercast yesterday. Time posted above me is correct, but the event is show here when Booker's all delirious after being pulled into a tear, manufacturing new memories.
 
Rapture wasn't subtle, the origins and meaning behind Rapture wasn't subtle. The events and experiences in Infinite are much more subtle and the player isn't bonked over the head over and over with a story beat or plot line until they understand it 100%.

Subtlety is something this industry is lacking in tenfold, people hate being confused, people hate having unanswered questions or certain elements not being expanded on to death. A believable world is one where you can create answers through your own observations instead of an audio log detailing every last piece of info for the player.

I don't need things to be spelled out for me to think a fictional world is a believable place, even then is making a world believable really more important than the soul or meaning behind the place?

Oh god please do not call the racist sky city subtle.
 
Yeah, this is unfortunate. I'm already anxious at the thought of another Irrational game with Levine at the helm. His games are pretty special in my eyes.


This also fascinates me. Hope some more info on all of that comes out one way or another eventually.

I'm curious about the sort of political battle angle they had. Seemed to be the focus as recently as 2011 when they showed it off at E3. They had a younger Comstock and seemed to suggest he was one of multiple politicians vying for control of Columbia. Which could have been very interesting.

Another politician running it seems was Saltonstall. He was the bald guy from the very first demo shown a few years ago. In the final game, he's merely a name on the board of Founders scalps taken by the Vox. Would love to find out more about the founders other than Comstock and Fink in a DLC.

I've seen Levine talking about an earlier idea that the battle for Columbia would be between "technologists and luddites" but I haven't really read up on that yet.

There's also a decent amount of early concept art in the Infinite art book showing a much darker Columbia than the one we got in the final game. I'm glad we got what we did in the finished product, but the darker city looks great as well, if not somewhat similar to the dark and derelict atmosphere of Rapture.

Another interesting thing about the political angle is that according to the Game Informer interview, these elections were all taking place very soon after Columbia split from the USA, with one side supporting secession and the other rejecting it. I'm not sure where the Vox fit into all this - whether they were part of the anti-secessionists or a totally separate movement I'm not sure. The fact that elections were even being permitted in Columbia suggests that the anti-secessionists were still technically part of the Founders and/or Columbian establishment. Still, the early vertical slice of Saltonstall rambling to an audience of empty chairs might indicate that there was more of a Bioshock-vibe, with people having already gone insane or something.
 

Haunted

Member
booker gave anna away in his early to mid 20's. 20ish years after that event lutece returns again to bring him into comstocks timeline to get the girl back.
Yeah, I meant the exact moment and whether it's shown in the game. Like, Lutece comes to hire him and Booker has to walk through a tear to get into Comstock's universe at some point. I was thinking about how that tear had to be "hidden" from him because otherwise why would he be surprised/act like he's never seen one before, when Elisabeth opens one later in the game.

I didn't realize this was explicitly shown in the ending of BioShock Infinite until watching Giant Bomb's Spoilercast yesterday. Time posted above me is correct, but the event is show here when Booker's all delirious after being pulled into a tear, manufacturing new memories.
I guess that's exactly what I was looking for. So yeah, maybe he was just disoriented and I'm just overthinking it.

So a tear just appeared in his house and got him to the Luteces on that the stormy night?
 

Zukuu

Banned
One man goes into the waters of baptism. A different man comes out.

Plot twist: DeWitt dies in the beginning of the game when he was drowned by the pastor, and the events of the game were his death dream to finish up the events that were haunting his subconscious his entire life. The spiritual journey ends just like his real life... drowning during baptism.
 

Eteric Rice

Member
I'm kind of wondering how a city like Columbia was able to take down a modern city like New York. Sure, they stole technology from other universes, but in that image, it looked like Columbia was still mostly the same.

A few jets or a nuke could take it out in one fell swoop.

It's not like they could hide forever, either. Radar would have been invented as well.

The ending was nice, though. Glad to see that he and Elizabeth survive in some form, in some universe. I suppose you can't kill every Booker, he would have to exist somewhere, just not as Comstock.
 

big_z

Member
I foresaw that he was Comstock and DeWitt were the same person - am I smart? :D

you are the prophet!


i kinda figured you were comstock by the second time you hear both their voices being mixed together. im also happy that the giant bomb guys heard jeff bridges in the comstock voice work. i had to stop and check if it was him or not because it's uncanny.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I'm just wondering, is it generally accepted that Rapture/Bioshock 1 is just another one of the universes exposed at the end of Bioshock Infinite?

If that's the case and the ending of Infinite basically annihilates all of the possible permutations of this "story", is there an ultimate message about the futility of the original Bioshock 1 ending?

The "evil" ending of Bioshock 1 is basically the "Comstock" ending, but shouldn't the good ending offer some kind of redemption that is worth keeping? Or is it better that Rapture never existed so that the girls couldn't be turned into Little Sisters in the first place?

I almost wish that the game didn't include any references to the first Bioshock, because now it just colours that entire experience. At the very least the futility of choice seems kind of overburdened here because you don't even have the opportunity to realize that there are no choices... especially since you just let Elizabeth murder you as a passive agent.
 

Melchiah

Member
I find it hard to believe he even had the concept for Infinite (let alone that particular event) in his mind at the time but how do you explain that? Why would they put that in there?

BTW, that link in the OP has some incredible pics, good job.

It might be he had an idea for it already at the time. Eventhough it might not be that common in games, similar stuff can be found in some TV series, eg. Babylon 5. Of course the idea may have been more vague back then, and perhaps materialized in detail later on.

There was another gallery posted on Gaf a while back, which features various pics of the posters as well; http://therealminime.minus.com/mjPaj1jCi6z2n

Just noticed the "Strength through leisure" sign, which reminds me of the nazis' leisure program, "Kraft durch Freude" (strength through joy).

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_Through_Joy
Kraft durch Freude (German for Strength through Joy, abbreviated KdF) was a large state-controlled leisure organization in Nazi Germany. It was a part of the German Labour Front (Deutsche Arbeitsfront, DAF), the national German labour organization at that time. Set up as a tool to promote the advantages of National Socialism to the people, it soon became the world's largest tourism operator of the 1930s.

KdF was supposed to bridge the class divide by making middle-class leisure activities available to the masses. This was underscored by having cruises with passengers of mixed classes and having them, regardless of social status, draw lots for allocation of cabins.

Another less ideological goal was to boost the German economy by stimulating the tourist industry out of its slump from the 1920s. It was quite successful up until the outbreak of World War II. By 1934, over two million Germans had participated on a KdF trip; by 1939 the reported numbers lay around 25 million people. The organization essentially collapsed in 1939, and several projects, such as the massive Prora holiday resort, were never completed.

Kinda fits the ideology behind Columbia.
 

DarkKyo

Member
Because when Booker crosses the bridge to Comstock house, he enters a tear opened by old Elizabeth into 1984.

Are you sure he goes to 1984 right away? I thought what it was is that as he was moving into/through Comstock house he was experiencing several giant timeskips forward because he was hearing the months turn into years as Elizabeth was being brainwashed against her will. He heard her hope deteriorate as the years went on. How do we know he wasn't moving throughout decades while going through Comstock house(until the very end when he arrives in 1984 to see his prophecy fulfilled). Is there concrete proof he's in 1984 right away?
 

Montresor

Member
Are you sure he goes to 1984 right away? I thought what it was is that as he was moving into/through Comstock house he was experiencing several giant timeskips forward because he was hearing the months turn into years as Elizabeth was being brainwashed against her will. He heard her hope deteriorate as the years went on. How do we know he wasn't moving throughout decades while going through Comstock house(until the very end when he arrives in 1984 to see his prophecy fulfilled). Is there concrete proof he's in 1984 right away?

It's possible that although he made a jump straight into 1984, the voxophones were littered strategically by Elizabeth (aka the game developers), so that you could hear her story in chronological order as you picked them up throughout Comstock house. So you're in 1984 all along, but every voxophone you pick up just so happens to have been recorded a couple of months/years after the previous voxophone.
 
Spoilers: The baptism in the beginning of the game sends Booker into a vegetative state because that motherfucker drowned him, the rest of the game is Booker floating on water in a coma, dreaming about his daughter.
 

DarkKyo

Member
It's possible that although he made a jump straight into 1984, the voxophones were littered strategically by Elizabeth (aka the game developers), so that you could hear her story in chronological order as you picked them up throughout Comstock house. So you're in 1984 all along, but every voxophone you pick up just so happens to have been recorded a couple of months/years after the previous voxophone.

True, but I wasn't referring to the Voxophones. You hear tears all over the place in Comstock house of Elizabeth struggling at different points in her captivity. Unless you're in 1984 and you encounter 3-4 tears all from the past, but I think that makes less sense...

Edit: what I'm trying to say is when I played that part of the game, it felt more to me like some kind of fuzzy, dream-like coalescence of many timespaces until you ultimately end up at the prophecy fulfillment in 1984. I didn't feel like I was in 1984 for that whole chunk of the game. Just look at the inmates of Comstock house and how fuzzy/deranged they are. As if they were some static-y amalgamations of beings scattered throughout Elizabeth's stay/rule(which is 70ish years). A lot of time to skip all together for no reason.

However it is possible that she pulls you right into 1984 as soon as you get there. I just thought it felt more odd than that.
 

Melchiah

Member
Spoilers: The baptism in the beginning of the game sends Booker into a vegetative state because that motherfucker drowned him, the rest of the game is Booker floating on water in a coma, dreaming about his daughter.

Speaking of the baptism scene in the beginning, I tried to avoid it, to escape the circle. The idea of being baptized, even in a game, just really rubbed me the wrong way. Kinda funny actually, that according to Levine, some aspects of the story were changed to accommodate the more religious folk, but the other side was offered no such favors.
 

Montresor

Member
True, but I wasn't referring to the Voxophones. You hear tears all over the place in Comstock house of Elizabeth struggling at different points in her captivity. Unless you're in 1984 and you encounter 3-4 tears all from the past, but I think that makes less sense...

Good point. I didn't think of that.

I know I'm rationalizing here, because I _want_ to believe that Booker was in 1984 that whole time. How about this idea: all those tears in Comstock house exist in-game independently of each other, correct? Is it possible to skip one tear, and go to the next? If so, you could conceivably travel straight to the last tear (chronologically speaking), and then witness each of the other tears in reverse order while backtracking to the beginning of Comstock house. You'd witness the end of the story of Elizabeth's captivity first, and then work your way towards the beginning of Elizabeth's captivity. And something like that would fly against the theory that Booker is experiencing accelerated time, quickly and gradually advancing to 1984, when IMO he is instead instantly travelling to 1984.
 
I don't know if this has been posted before, but I thought this video nicely summed up some of the stuff Infinite got wrong (mostly gameplay wise). After letting the game sink in for a week now I feel the same way, especially regarding the content that got cut from the final game, and the gameplay from the previous games being better overall.

Everything Bioshock Infinite Gets Wrong

A significant portion of this video was well reasoned, worded very well and consisted of very valid complaints. I completely agree.

EDIT: I know most people here will probably have played the original Bioshock but just in case I'm going to spoiler the entire post since Bioshock was included with some of the PS3 versions of Infinite. So, if you haven't played the original, I highly advise you don't read the following.

What I feel is the biggest problem with Bioshock Infinite (plot-wise anyway; I don't have much interest in discussing gameplay errors or the scaling back that seemed to have occured) is in relation to the Voxophones. In Rapture, each Audio Diary tied characters' plotlines together, they were utilised in giving background to the city pre-war, during the war and after the war. Each Audio Diary was a plotline for that specific character but it all fed together in the development of the city and to assist the main plot. In Bioshock Infinite though, this doesn't really seem to be the case. Preston E Downs for example has his own storyline but it never really ties into the main plotline, the best it does is in showing how Daisy Fitzroy utilises children and how people may change their outlook. Constance Field (Feld?) is another example, she has a relevance in her name, and also in showing what some people may think of Elizabeth in Monument Island (and to some extent how young girls are brought up) but the plot just ended abruptly with no indication of what happened/will happen.

Diane McClintock's tale is one I'd put similar to these, it's a self contained story but it shows how people were brought into Atlas' influence. It also helps show the sudden outbreak of the riots, an introduction to Steinman, slight development of Ryan, development of Atlas and development of post-riot Rapture (highlighting the nature of the raids). There are other people with sole Audio Diaries (mostly done to give different perspectives of events) but those that reoccur, in general, have their own story that feeds into the main plot. And, even moreso, the characters we only met in Voxophones, we saw their fate; their plotlines had reached a conclusion. Suchong murdered by the Big Daddy, Diane dead on the broken table, Ryan's mistress killed, Bill McDonagh murdered. It's hard to display them all, and all the Voxophone's connections because most of them all interweave quite well (even the woman whose daughter became a Little Sister for example ties in with Suchong, Ryan and Atlas while having her own plotline concluding in her and her husband's suicide; Infinite's equivalent in Hadie Girth ties in with Monument Island [it helps suggest why Fink seemed to be popular though] and gives the Handyman a story but we never figure out what happens to her, her story doesn't conclude and).

While Bioshock Infinite has a significant number of Voxophones that are related to the main plot, most of the side ones have already branched out far earlier (for example, Daisy Fitzroy's branches out from the murder and charts how her views refine and while it develops her character and places an emphasis on Columbia's racist views it never really feeds back into the main plot; in order for it to do so we'd need another perspective that shows somebody joining up with the Vox or the hierarchy of the Vox), are usually confined to the faction or are inconsequential, only developing a singular character, a singular story and never concluding.

I don't know if I've explained what I'm trying to say well, but as the video said, Rapture was like it's own pocket universe, each part of the fiction combined to create an area that, within it's own internal logic, made sense. Infinite has some very well thought out stories that feed into the main plot and develop a few people simultaneously (particularly those that are tear-related and time-travel/multiverse-related such as the Lutece's, Comstock's and Lady Comstock's) but others just seem inconsequential and we don't end up with a world that seems to gel with each specific piece as we did in Rapture (yes, Rapture had a problem in revealing its hand too early and then almost ignoring the 'a man chooses a slave obeys' by making us follow Tenenbaum's orders; but the entire setting, the characters, the factions, they all were elaborated upon, we got an insight into everything). Perhaps I'm rambling by now, I apologise. Bioshock Infinite is a game I very much enjoyed and it did many things well (it's multiverse story is surprisingly tight compared to most others I've seen) but overall I think I still prefer the original (gameplay included in my choice; I went back to Bioshock and I still like the gameplay as I always have [I know many people don't however] and while I can see clearly that Bioshock Infinite has more refined combat, I don't think it's big enough to compensate for all of the other areas that, I feel, Bioshock is superior to Infinite).

EDIT: I guess, in short, the main problem I have with Infinite (story/plot/setting wise) is that I don't think each aspect ties in very well with each other. Independant, they're quite good, but as a whole I don't think they succeed as well as Rapture did and, as some have suggested, perhaps that's the point in resembling the duality of Booker but I think they could have still shown this duality while making each part fit in with one another better than had been done. All of this isn't to say I dislike Infinite, on the contrary I did indeed enjoy it.

EDIT:
I'm just wondering, is it generally accepted that Rapture/Bioshock 1 is just another one of the universes exposed at the end of Bioshock Infinite?

If that's the case and the ending of Infinite basically annihilates all of the possible permutations of this "story", is there an ultimate message about the futility of the original Bioshock 1 ending?

The "evil" ending of Bioshock 1 is basically the "Comstock" ending, but shouldn't the good ending offer some kind of redemption that is worth keeping? Or is it better that Rapture never existed so that the girls couldn't be turned into Little Sisters in the first place?

I almost wish that the game didn't include any references to the first Bioshock, because now it just colours that entire experience. At the very least the futility of choice seems kind of overburdened here because you don't even have the opportunity to realize that there are no choices... especially since you just let Elizabeth murder you as a passive agent.

Not sure if this address what you're referring to (apologies if it isn't) but there are an infinite number of sets of universes, where Rapture exists is one of these sets. Rapture's sets of universes only exist in universes where Booker rejects (and presumably is also reliant upon a host of other factors, constants, variables etc.) so we don't wipe away universes where Rapture exists at the end (there is always a lighthouse, a man, a city; all singular, so each universe only has one of each). If you mean just mean is it one of the many universes then yes, this is indeed the case. They basically made "Bioshock" refer to the entire multiverse that was shown as opposed to any specific place, area, time etc.

Again, I'm not sure if this really addresses the question (although maybe it's rhetorical, I can't really tell) so if it doesn't, sorry once again and feel free to ignore this.
 

DarkKyo

Member
Good point. I didn't think of that.

I know I'm rationalizing here, because I _want_ to believe that Booker was in 1984 that whole time. How about this idea: all those tears in Comstock house exist in-game independently of each other, correct? Is it possible to skip one tear, and go to the next? If so, you could conceivably travel straight to the last tear (chronologically speaking), and then witness each of the other tears in reverse order while backtracking to the beginning of Comstock house. You'd witness the end of the story of Elizabeth's captivity first, and then work your way towards the beginning of Elizabeth's captivity. And something like that would fly against the theory that Booker is experiencing accelerated time, quickly and gradually advancing to 1984, when IMO he is instead instantly travelling to 1984.

It's very possible he does go right to 1984. It seems to be a cooler idea for Booker to be losing/accelerating time at that rate because it's like saving Elizabeth is getting further and further away as the years go on. It's more depressing/less tense to think that he just appears in 1984 and he missed his chance. However I think what lends more evidence to that idea is the massive statue of Elizabeth. That's pretty early on in that sequence. Then again we don't know when that was built -- it could have even been built by Comstock's people before his reign was up for all we know(unless there is more clear-cut evidence there)...

If he does go right to 1984, it's kind of sad because he didn't even get to try and save her! Old Elizabeth mentions his inability to save her but how would that even be possible if she didn't give him a chance to try? As soon as he started heading there she flung him deep into the future. Unless there were other Bookers that tried and the Booker we play as just perceives being sent into the future before he even gets to try.
 

cackhyena

Member
A significant portion of this video was well reasoned, worded very well and consisted of very valid complaints. I completely agree.

EDIT: I know most people here will probably have played the original Bioshock but just in case I'm going to spoiler the entire post since Bioshock was included with some of the PS3 versions of Infinite. So, if you haven't played the original, I highly advise you don't read the following.

What I feel is the biggest problem with Bioshock Infinite (plot-wise anyway; I don't have much interest in discussing gameplay errors or the scaling back that seemed to have occured) is in relation to the Voxophones. In Rapture, each Audio Diary tied character's plotlines together, they were utilised in giving background to the city pre-war, during the war and after the war. Each Audio Diary was a plotline for that specific character but it all fed together in the development of the city and to assist the main plot. In Bioshock Infinite though, this doesn't really seem to be the case. Preston E Downs for example has his own storyline but it never really ties into the main plotline, the best it does is showing how Daisy Fitzroy utilises children and how people may change their outlook. Constance Field (Feld?) is another example, she has a relevance in her name, and also in showing what some people may think of Elizabeth in Monument Island (and to some extent how young girls are brought up) but the plot just ended abruptly with no indication of what happened/will happen.

Diane McClintock's tale is one I'd put similar to these, it's a self contained story but it shows how people were brought into Atlas' influence. It also helps show the sudden outbreak of the riots, an introduction to Steinman, slight development of Ryan, development of Atlas and development of post-riot Rapture (highlighting the nature of the raids). There are other people with sole Audio Diaries (mostly done to give different perspectives of events) but those that reoccur, in general, have their own story that feeds into the main plot. And, even moreso, the characters we only met in Voxophones, we saw their fate; their plotlines had reached a conclusion. Suchong murdered by the Big Daddy, Diane dead on the broken table, Ryan's mistress killed, Bill McDonagh murdered. It's hard to display them all, and all the Voxophone's connections because most of them all interweave quite well (even the woman whose daughter became a Little Sister for example ties in with Suchong, Ryan and Atlas while having her own plotline concluding in her and her husband's suicide; Infinite's equivalent in Hadie Girth ties in with Monument Island [it helps suggest why Fink seemed to be popular though] and gives the Handyman a story but we never figure out what happens to her, her story doesn't conclude and).

While Bioshock Infinite has a significant number of Voxophones that are related to the main plot, most of the side ones have always branched out far earlier (for example, Daisy Fitzroy's branches out from the murder and charts how her views refine and while it develops her character and places an emphasis on Columbia's racist views it never really feeds back into the main plot; in order for it to do so we'd need another perspective that shows somebody joining up with the Vox or the hierarchy of the Vox), are usually confined to the faction or are inconsequential, only developing a singular character, a singular story and never concluding.

I don't know if I've explained what I'm trying to say well, but as the video said, Rapture was like it's own pocket universe, each part of the fiction combined to create an area that, within it's own internal logic, made sense. Infinite has some very well thought out stories that feed into the main plot and develop a few people simultaneously (particularly those that are tear-related and time-travel/multiverse-related such as the Lutece's, Comstock's and Lady Comstock's) but others just seem inconsequential and we don't end up with a world that seems to gel with each specific piece as we did in Rapture (yes, Rapture had a problem in revealing its hand too early and then almost ignoring the 'a man chooses a slave obeys' by making us follow Tenenbaum's orders; but the entire setting, the characters, the factions, they all were elaborated upon, we got an insight into everything). Perhaps I'm rambling by now, I apologise. Bioshock Infinite is a game I very much enjoyed and it did many things well (it's multiverse story is surprisingly tight compared to most others I've seen) but overall I think I still prefer the original (gameplay included in my choice; I went back to Bioshock and I still like the gameplay as I always have [I know many people don't however] and while I can see clearly that Bioshock Infinite has more refined combat, I don't think it's big enough to compensate for all of the other areas that, I feel, Bioshock is superior to Infinite).

Well put.
 

Melchiah

Member
What was the part where one of the developers almost quit or something?
Was it a specific part? I thought it was because of the religious themes and the negative connotations it has in the game.

http://www.vg247.com/2013/01/20/bioshock-infinite-religious-content-highly-altered-after-feedback/
BioShock: Infinite religious content “highly altered” after feedback
BioShock: Infinite contains religious themes, and while Ken Levine won’t make cuts to avoid offending people, he has made some changes in response to feedback.

“I had some very valuable conversations. One of the characters in the game was highly altered based upon some very interesting conversations I had with people on the team who came from a very religious background, and I was able to understand they were kind of upset about something,” Levine told OPM.

But although Levine took the feedback on board, he didn’t censor himself.

“What I said to them was, ‘I’m not going to change anything to get your approval, but I think I understand what you’re saying and I think I can do something that’s going to make the story better, based on what you said,’” he explained.

“So I did that, and I’m grateful for them bringing in their perspective. The last thing I wanted to do was change something because it offends somebody, but the thing they pointed out was making it a lesser story.”

EDIT: I'd really like to know what exactly was changed.
 

Melchiah

Member
I have a feeling that "archangle" part we here in the voxophone may have had a more significant role. Maybe more direct references to god and the devil.

I first thought about Comstock, but I can't think of how he could have been worse in that sense. So, I thought if it had something to do with the messianic aspects of Elizabeth.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Comstock's visions are an important point that I still haven't seen clarified. I know he used the Lucetes machine's tears to see other timelines, but I was under the impression he was making claims of prophecy before Columbia. To my knowledge Columbia was itself a vision given to him by the 'archangel'. Whether or not that was bullshitting is important to my theory!
 
One of the characters in the game was highly altered

Must've been Comstock. I guess it's likely that there were more direct parallels between his actions and actual religious events.
Or maybe it's about the relation between him and his followers. Everyone believes he's a prophet but it's just a lie, maybe this relation between a prophet/god and his followers was portrayed in a way that offended people with faith. Maybe he was implying that it applies to all religions in real life. He says in the interview that he isn't a believer in any kind of faith and therefore was unable to see things from a believer's perspective, something his staff helped him with.
 

Xanathus

Member
Comstock's visions are an important point that I still haven't seen clarified. I know he used the Lucetes machine's tears to see other timelines, but I was under the impression he was making claims of prophecy before Columbia. To my knowledge Columbia was itself a vision given to him by the 'archangel'. Whether or not that was bullshitting is important to my theory!
Comstock met Lucete and used his existing funds to help her finish her machine *before* having Columbia built, which is how he got fame and power in order to convince the government to fund Columbia.
 
Okay, just finished it.

So there are potentially an infinite number of Booker DeWitts and Zachary Comstocks, if I'm understanding the ending correctly.

So how does drowning the one Booker DeWitt that became our Zachary Comstock somehow erase all Zachary Comstocks?
 

-Winnie-

Member
Amazing OP... My mind was reeling after that ending, but reading through that it makes a hell of a lot more sense now. Props to Ken Levine and Irrational for one of the deepest, most compelling narratives this gen if not all time, goddamn.
 
Okay, just finished it.

So there are potentially an infinite number of Booker DeWitts and Zachary Comstocks, if I'm understanding the ending correctly.

So how does drowning the one Booker DeWitt that became our Zachary Comstock somehow erase all Zachary Comstocks?

Don't take that final scene too literally. It's supposed to symbolize a combined timeline, where all possible Elizabeths appear on screen and drown all Comstocks, therefore eliminating the possibility of Booker accepting.
 
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