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Bioshock Infinite | Official Spoiler Thread |

I don't know.. does the game really want to "SAY" something? a lot of journalists and fans are turning it into some statement on racism and religion but the actual game hardly touches on that and the game has more to do with narrative and choice then anything else. I also get frustrated when people complain that it has too many shooting elements. If you want a movie or a novel look there.

Levine himself has pretty much said the same. Its a game.. and on top of that its a FPS.

maybe I am way off base?

I'm a little confused by your wording. How does the game have more to do with the narrative and choice, but the elements in the narrative aren't there to say anything?

For the record, I agree with a lot of the criticisms in the video and I think this is a rather good article on the subject: http://www.abc.net.au/arts/stories/s3733057.htm
 
Ten Bioshock Infinite DLC Achievements added to Steam:

IBfiUjE.png


All placeholders (I can't get them all in a single screen capture but they're all of the same 'type'):
HofPaza.png


EDIT: New news new thread I know, but I'm not sure if this clarifies as news since they're only placeholders and there's no actual details.

EDIT: Oh and here's the link: http://steamcommunity.com/stats/BioShockInfinite/achievements/
 
I don't know.. does the game really want to "SAY" something? a lot of journalists and fans are turning it into some statement on racism and religion but the actual game hardly touches on that and the game has more to do with narrative and choice then anything else. I also get frustrated when people complain that it has too many shooting elements. If you want a movie or a novel look there.

Levine himself has pretty much said the same. Its a game.. and on top of that its a FPS.

maybe I am way off base?

I was under the impression that Levine wanted to create a game that said something? Wasn't that his purpose with the first Bioshock at least?

Also what about his criticisms of the shooting mechanics such as health packs, hitscan weapons, and recharging shield?
 
I'm still unsure of how Rapture fits into all this. Was it just fan-service, really? Elizabeth mentions how all universes have similarities and key differences. The similarities between Rapture and Columbia are obvious (fantastic cities in strange places), but that's where the similarities end.

The ending of Infinite implies that all universes are connected through the same strand, which weaves and tangles into all possibilities. I just don't understand how Rapture fits into the universe presented in BioShock Infinite. The Luteces and Comstock were instrumental in creating Columbia, but they don't have any obvious analogues in BioShock.

Yes, I know that it's basically a big retcon, but I'm wondering what the in-game explanation for Rapture's existence is.
 

Neiteio

Member
For the record, I agree with a lot of the criticisms in the video and I think this is a rather good article on the subject:

http://www.abc.net.au/arts/stories/s3733057.htm
I disagree with this article on numerous levels. Among its recurring claims: That the game is trying to be "intelligent" and "taken seriously" by touching on the topic of racism.

No, it's really not, and I think it's narrowminded for some to continually insist that because the topic of racism is present in a work an art, that it must be the point of the work of art, or that if a real-life historical event was appalling (as was the case with Wounded Knee), that there's an obligation to make it the point of the work of art.

The topic of racism, as employed in this game, is deliberately secondary to the tale of redemption at the heart of the narrative. BioShock Infinite is exploring the consequences of the different ways we deal with cognitive dissonance, as individuals and as a people.

The game's reality-bending brand of sci-fi serves as a framework to get multiple takes on the same decision, one not made by the player but predetermined by the author, and this is so we can see, in equal measure, 1) what happens when one whitewashes the past, seeking absolution through ideology, and 2) what happens when one lives with the guilt of acts they consider unforgivable. BioShock Infinite is about the battle between two states of the human psyche -- rationalization, and depression -- and the perils of each.

Another point the article insists upon, with which I disagree: The author berates BioShock Infinite for being a shooter, as though the semi-frequent bursts of violence come at the expense of the narrative.

The thing is, the game doesn't make apologies for being a game -- and it shouldn't. The game is a shoot-and-loot that happens to be set in a wonderfully realized world and framed by a character-driven plot full of mystery and intrigue. Not the other way around. Never mind the fact the narrative itself is violent by nature, set against a backdrop of a theocracy at a time of civil unrest and revolution, not to mention a lead who has done some terrible things.

The violence is appropriate, both from a mechanical and narrative perspective. That it contrasts it so nicely with moments of solace such as the Raffle & Fair and Battleship Bay makes its occurrence all the more jarring, which is commendable.
 

spekkeh

Banned
I'm still unsure of how Rapture fits into all this. Was it just fan-service, really? Elizabeth mentions how all universes have similarities and key differences. The similarities between Rapture and Columbia are obvious (fantastic cities in strange places), but that's where the similarities end.

The ending of Infinite implies that all universes are connected through the same strand, which weaves and tangles into all possibilities. I just don't understand how Rapture fits into the universe presented in BioShock Infinite. The Luteces and Comstock were instrumental in creating Columbia, but they don't have any obvious analogues in BioShock.

Yes, I know that it's basically a big retcon, but I'm wondering what the in-game explanation for Rapture's existence is.

At first I groaned when I saw Rapture, thought it was crass fanboy pandering. But when they showed all the lighthouses I took it as a positioning of Bioshock in the metaphysical realm. That the man and the lighthouse and the city should be taken as Platonic ideas.
 

Salamando

Member
I'm still unsure of how Rapture fits into all this. Was it just fan-service, really? Elizabeth mentions how all universes have similarities and key differences. The similarities between Rapture and Columbia are obvious (fantastic cities in strange places), but that's where the similarities end.

The ending of Infinite implies that all universes are connected through the same strand, which weaves and tangles into all possibilities. I just don't understand how Rapture fits into the universe presented in BioShock Infinite. The Luteces and Comstock were instrumental in creating Columbia, but they don't have any obvious analogues in BioShock.

Yes, I know that it's basically a big retcon, but I'm wondering what the in-game explanation for Rapture's existence is.

If you want to rationalize it...the tears indicating the connection between Vigors and Pasmids or Songbird and Big Daddies indicate that the two universes are relatively close. Elizabeth knew that Songbird had a weakness to being underwater, so she traveled to the nearest universe where (a) Songbird would be under water and deep enough that he couldn't escape...(b) Herself and Dewitt wouldn't be safe, and (c) Songbird's velocity wouldn't break whatever separated them.
 

spekkeh

Banned
For the record, I agree with a lot of the criticisms in the video and I think this is a rather good article on the subject: http://www.abc.net.au/arts/stories/s3733057.htm

As a non-US resident I miss America's sensibilities for racial issues, but I'm sure (maybe I dreamt it) that I saw many white people among the lower classes in Columbia. So I didn't really get all the alleged racial themes.

I do think it's true that the game is terribly black and white in how it approaches most if its other themes though.
 

Neiteio

Member
As a non-US resident I miss America's sensibilities for racial issues, but I'm sure (maybe I dreamt it) that I saw many white people among the lower classes in Columbia. So I didn't really get all the alleged racial themes.

I do think it's true that the game is terribly black and white in how it approaches most if its other themes though.
I don't agree with that point, but I'm more curious to ask: As a non-American, what did you think of all of the American iconography? (I.E. the architectural styles, the various renderings of the Founding Fathers, etc)

I'm curious, as an American, what a game filled with American imagery is like to people from other countries. Sort of like how people who grow up in Japan, surrounded by Japanese imagery, presumably see games filled with samurais, etc, in a different way than people who grew up in America, not surrounded by such imagery.

Something like the Raffle & Fair creates a certain nostalgia in me, as an American who has toured such places as Mackinac Island. I wonder if someone from outside American might not experience the same feelings, having not been to a place resembling a real-life Columbia.
 

Daeda

Member
I don't agree with that point, but I'm more curious to ask: As a non-American, what did you think of all of the American iconography? (I.E. the architectural styles, the various renderings of the Founding Fathers, etc)

I'm curious, as an American, what a game filled with American imagery is like to people from other countries. Sort of like how people who grow up in Japan, surrounded by Japanese imagery, presumably see games filled with samurais, etc, in a different way than people who grew up in America, not surrounded by such imagery.

Something like the Raffle & Fair creates a certain nostalgia in me, as an American who has toured such places as Mackinac Island. I wonder if someone from outside American might not experience the same feelings, having not been to a place resembling a real-life Columbia.

For me: while I'm pretty aware of the modern American political climate, I did have to look up some stuff like the Wounded Knee Massacre and the Boxer Rebellion.

Overall I'd say it hits much less closer to home than it probably does for Americans. Bioshock Infinite displays exactly those aspects that make a lot of Europeans think are wrong with the country. So a bit less personal critique and a little more "looking down", at least from my perspective.
 
I'm still unsure of how Rapture fits into all this. Was it just fan-service, really? Elizabeth mentions how all universes have similarities and key differences. The similarities between Rapture and Columbia are obvious (fantastic cities in strange places), but that's where the similarities end.

The ending of Infinite implies that all universes are connected through the same strand, which weaves and tangles into all possibilities. I just don't understand how Rapture fits into the universe presented in BioShock Infinite. The Luteces and Comstock were instrumental in creating Columbia, but they don't have any obvious analogues in BioShock.

Yes, I know that it's basically a big retcon, but I'm wondering what the in-game explanation for Rapture's existence is.

A creative way to kill my poor Songbird =(
 
The Luteces and Comstock were instrumental in creating Columbia, but they don't have any obvious analogues in BioShock.

i would argue that Suchong is enough of an analog to Lutece (it's one Lutece, mind you, not two).

r, so she traveled to the nearest universe where (a) Songbird would be under water and deep enough that he couldn't escape...(b) Herself and Dewitt wouldn't be safe, and (c) Songbird's velocity wouldn't break whatever separated them.
it's not a weakness, it's the change from low air pressure to dense deep water pressure. that's why his eyes shatter, it's crushing him alive.

this raises the possibility that Elizabeth had prior knowledge of Rapture; or immediately became aware of it at the destruction of the siphon.
 
I don't know. I guess I just don't like the idea of Rapture existing in the same universe as Columbia. The way it's presented in Infinite, it's clear that there are unlimited possibilities of various versions of Booker/Elizabeth/Comstock, etc., not infinite versions of EVERYTHING. It's not like Columbia exists in one universe and another universe is rainbow gumdrop people living on a chocolate cake. It's infinite versions of Columbia and the history leading up to it.

I don't see how the events of BioShock 1 are at all comparable with the in-game universe presented in BioShock Infinite. It's no big deal, and I actually thought it was kind of neat to see Rapture, but it seemed pandering more than anything else.
 

Salamando

Member
I don't know. I guess I just don't like the idea of Rapture existing in the same universe as Columbia. The way it's presented in Infinite, it's clear that there are unlimited possibilities of various versions of Booker/Elizabeth/Comstock, etc., not infinite versions of EVERYTHING. It's not like Columbia exists in one universe and another universe is rainbow gumdrop people living on a chocolate cake. It's infinite versions of Columbia and the history leading up to it.

The first step to understanding multiverses is knowing that anything that can happen has happened, is happening, and will happen. This means infinite universes with infinite branches, where Columbia will only exist in a very small subset of them (but there'll still be an infinite number of Columbias). Rapture and Columbia don't have to exist in the same universe, but the branches they exist on likely originated from the same place.
 
Quick question for folks that played through a second time. Did you guys get bored going through again? I feel like this was such a narrative driven game for me, that knowing all the revelations of the game. Feels like it may water down the experience a bit. I mainly want to try out a different playstyle (used mostly Devils Kiss and Possession, and rifle-type weapons the first go around) Im just not sure it will be able to keep my attention, but want to see all the little nuances (especially from the Luteces) knowing everything.
 

Lakitu

st5fu
Quick question for folks that played through a second time. Did you guys get bored going through again? I feel like this was such a narrative driven game for me, that knowing all the revelations of the game. Feels like it may water down the experience a bit. I mainly want to try out a different playstyle (used mostly Devils Kiss and Possession, and rifle-type weapons the first go around) Im just not sure it will be able to keep my attention, but want to see all the little nuances (especially from the Luteces) knowing everything.

I'm going through it a 4th time, so the answer is no for me. :)
 
The first step to understanding multiverses is knowing that anything that can happen has happened, is happening, and will happen. This means infinite universes with infinite branches, where Columbia will only exist in a very small subset of them (but there'll still be an infinite number of Columbias). Rapture and Columbia don't have to exist in the same universe, but the branches they exist on likely originated from the same place.

not everything, only the variables. There are quite a few constants that happen through all timelines. Actually, Columbia happens in 50% of all instances with Booker because the constant is Booker goes to the baptism, and from their the 2 variables are he either accepts the baptism, becomes Comstock, and creates Columbia, or he rejects the Baptism and becomes a gambling addict. How Rapture works in to that is beyond me, other than the constants of their always being a man, a city, and a lighthouse
 

RiccochetJ

Gold Member
Quick question for folks that played through a second time. Did you guys get bored going through again? I feel like this was such a narrative driven game for me, that knowing all the revelations of the game. Feels like it may water down the experience a bit. I mainly want to try out a different playstyle (used mostly Devils Kiss and Possession, and rifle-type weapons the first go around) Im just not sure it will be able to keep my attention, but want to see all the little nuances (especially from the Luteces) knowing everything.

I played through 3 times to get all the achievements. Had a blast each time for different reasons. I did rush through some of the scripted parts though and it caused some funny issues like the dialog trying to catch up to everything I managed to grab or do in a particular room.
 

Salamando

Member
not everything, only the variables. There are quite a few constants that happen through all timelines. Actually, Columbia happens in 50% of all instances with Booker because the constant is Booker goes to the baptism, and from their the 2 variables are he either accepts the baptism, becomes Comstock, and creates Columbia, or he rejects the Baptism and becomes a gambling addict. How Rapture works in to that is beyond me, other than the constants of their always being a man, a city, and a lighthouse

The baptism being a constant is only true for the very small set of timelines the game deals with. If it's constant for all timelines, that infers there's either only a very small number of timelines to begin with, or Booker is of some cosmic importance that I really wish they'd go into.
 

Zabka

Member
I'm a little confused by your wording. How does the game have more to do with the narrative and choice, but the elements in the narrative aren't there to say anything?

For the record, I agree with a lot of the criticisms in the video and I think this is a rather good article on the subject: http://www.abc.net.au/arts/stories/s3733057.htm

God that's a terrible article. This assumption that this game is supposed to be some of grand statement on racism is a huge fucking leap of logic to make.
 

Trigger

Member
God that's a terrible article. This assumption that this game is supposed to be some of grand statement on racism is a huge fucking leap of logic to make.

Especially since racism/class issues aren't key to the story or its conclusion at all. People want to make the social context more involved than it needs to be.
 
I disagree with this article on numerous levels. Among its recurring claims: That the game is trying to be "intelligent" and "taken seriously" by touching on the topic of racism.

No, it's really not, and I think it's narrowminded for some to continually insist that because the topic of racism is present in a work an art, that it must be the point of the work of art, or that if a real-life historical event was appalling (as was the case with Wounded Knee), that there's an obligation to make it the point of the work of art.

The topic of racism, as employed in this game, is deliberately secondary to the tale of redemption at the heart of the narrative. BioShock Infinite is exploring the consequences of the different ways we deal with cognitive dissonance, as individuals and as a people.

The game's reality-bending brand of sci-fi serves as a framework to get multiple takes on the same decision, one not made by the player but predetermined by the author, and this is so we can see, in equal measure, 1) what happens when one whitewashes the past, seeking absolution through ideology, and 2) what happens when one lives with the guilt of acts they consider unforgivable. BioShock Infinite is about the battle between two states of the human psyche -- rationalization, and depression -- and the perils of each.

Another point the article insists upon, with which I disagree: The author berates BioShock Infinite for being a shooter, as though the semi-frequent bursts of violence come at the expense of the narrative.

The thing is, the game doesn't make apologies for being a game -- and it shouldn't. The game is a shoot-and-loot that happens to be set in a wonderfully realized world and framed by a character-driven plot full of mystery and intrigue. Not the other way around. Never mind the fact the narrative itself is violent by nature, set against a backdrop of a theocracy at a time of civil unrest and revolution, not to mention a lead who has done some terrible things.

The violence is appropriate, both from a mechanical and narrative perspective. That it contrasts it so nicely with moments of solace such as the Raffle & Fair and Battleship Bay makes its occurrence all the more jarring, which is commendable.

No one said anything about making racism the point of anything. However, one would hope that in what ostensibly aspires to be a serious, somber narrative the topic would be treated as more than a cartoon shamelessly paraded for shock value. The inclusion doesn't say anything or add anything of value to the narrative. Think of The Searchers and Taxi Driver and how the main characters' prejudices colored their actions and motivations. Subtly alluded to but never face to face with a caricature of a big-lipped Sambo. Booker's redemption rings a bit false when fighting against such hilariously evil enemies. By contrast he doesn't seem like such a bad guy. Obviously he's done some awful things but at least he isn't Sky Hitler.

As far as cognitive dissonance goes, I agree, but I don't think it really works. It might have if anything before the raffle communicated to the player that Columbia was anything other than a terrible place. Despite it's colorful and cheerful palette, the setting is immediately creepy and off-putting with all sorts of cultish, Stepford vibes. Getting the chance to stone minorities only confirms it's a den of evil. If Columbia had seemed at all inviting or alluring beforehand, the provocative racial imagery might have caused a conflict to how the players felt.
 

MG310

Member
To me they were at least hinting at the possibility that Lady Comstock is Booker's wife. The way she describes her life prior to meeting Comstock in her Voxophone recordings makes it seem like she would have run in the same shitty circles as Booker did before she was "saved."
 

Neiteio

Member
No one said anything about making racism the point of anything. However, one would hope that in what ostensibly aspires to be a serious, somber narrative the topic would be treated as more than a cartoon shamelessly paraded for shock value. The inclusion doesn't say anything or add anything of value to the narrative.
Racism is not the point of the narrative, but it's not "a cartoon shamelessly paraded for shock value," either. Racism -does- add to the narrative here -- its pervasiveness in Columbia is reinforced by one man's rationalization of his treatment of others, rationalization he achieves through ideology. And this, in turn, is a subset of the game's true theme, which is how we as individuals and as a society deal with cognitive dissonance, and the consequences of both confronting it (Booker) or withdrawing from it (Comstock).

Think of The Searchers and Taxi Driver and how the main characters' prejudices colored their actions and motivations. Subtly alluded to but never face to face with a caricature of a big-lipped Sambo. Booker's redemption rings a bit false when fighting against such hilariously evil enemies. By contrast he doesn't seem like such a bad guy. Obviously he's done some awful things but at least he isn't Sky Hitler.
Booker doesn't seem like such a bad guy? It turns out he -is- the bad guy -- Comstock is his alternate self. Comstock is the Booker who chose to rationalize away his wrongdoing through ideology, and he serves to show the perils of absolution through ideology, how it enabled him to do even worse things, not the least of which includes perpetuating a society based on minority oppression. Let's not forget, Comstock was a "Sky Hitler" in the making, trying to bring about a future where a sinful America was smote from the Earth. He was now rationalizing genocide.

And then the Booker we play is the Booker who took the more nihilistic view of thinking himself irredeemable for the massacre he committed at Wounded Knee. Refusing to rationalize away his wrongdoing had its own destructive consequences -- namely, a spiral of depression, drinking and debt that culminated in him selling his own daughter. Again, the point of the game is, and remains, not issues of racism, and thus those issues were not undercooked; rather, they served the intended point of illustrating -some- of the consequences of whitewashing the past.

As far as cognitive dissonance goes, I agree, but I don't think it really works. It might have if anything before the raffle communicated to the player that Columbia was anything other than a terrible place. Despite it's colorful and cheerful palette, the setting is immediately creepy and off-putting with all sorts of cultish, Stepford vibes. Getting the chance to stone minorities only confirms it's a den of evil. If Columbia had seemed at all inviting or alluring beforehand, the provocative racial imagery might have caused a conflict to how the players felt.
I think you're in the minority thinking Columbia didn't seem idyllic at the start of the game. I suspect many people found the intro to Columbia to be magical. I know I got swept up taking in the sights and sounds, soaking up what felt to me like Heaven on Earth. It really seems like the perfect place. And that's why the stoning at the raffle is so effective; it's absolutely meant to be shocking and jarring, because the point is to establish the bigotry that exists in this society.

It's not even cartoonish: In real life, delicate ladies in sun-dresses would sip lemonade at a picnic on a bright sunny day -- as a black man swung from a noose overhead. This shit happened in America. Infinite's depiction of a biracial couple being rolled out to a jeering, bloodthirsty crowd seems tame compared to the real deal. So I hardly think they were heavy-handed in their approach.

Furthermore, they could've left matters at this scene and it would've been enough to establish the sort of society you're exploring, but scenes like the civil rights group with the Negro printing presses were there to also establish that not -everyone- is so bigoted, and that there are in fact progressives in Columbia, which I thought did an excellent job of making its world seem like a more real and well-rounded place.

Of course, the beauty is that all of these details are secondary to the tale of Booker himself. In the end, the bits and pieces of racism here and there simply add to Columbia as a monument to Booker's sin -- a vivid symbol for where society goes when it uses ideology to excuse its own actions.
 

nib95

Banned
Read every bit of the OP and still don't quite get it. Part I don't quite understand is how their events (Elizabeth's drowning Booker) end up breaking it from a variable to a constant when there are so many other worlds where the girls might not be to kill Booker, and thus the variable continues in a loop. Maybe someone could explain in layman's.

In any case, just reading the OP, hats off to the team. Absolutely fantastic game, and a narrative of this depth in a video game is brazen and commendable to an endless degree. Can't believe how many layers there is to it all. I mean, this image alone blew my mind...


How the hell did Levine come up with this? Lol.

Also, OP, please fix the broken image links if you have the time!
 
Racism is not the point of the narrative, but it's not "a cartoon shamelessly paraded for shock value," either. Racism -does- add to the narrative here -- its pervasiveness in Columbia is reinforced by one man's rationalization of his treatment of others, rationalization he achieves through ideology. And this, in turn, is a subset of the game's true theme, which is how we as individuals and as a society deal with cognitive dissonance, and the consequences of both confronting it (Booker) or withdrawing from it (Comstock).


Booker doesn't seem like such a bad guy? It turns out he -is- the bad guy -- Comstock is his alternate self. Comstock is the Booker who chose to rationalize away his wrongdoing through ideology, and he serves to show the perils of absolution through ideology, how it enabled him to do even worse things, not the least of which includes perpetuating a society based on minority oppression. Let's not forget, Comstock was a "Sky Hitler" in the making, trying to bring about a future where a sinful America was smote from the Earth. He was now rationalizing genocide.

And then the Booker we play is the Booker who took the more nihilistic view of thinking himself irredeemable for the massacre he committed at Wounded Knee. Refusing to rationalize away his wrongdoing had its own destructive consequences -- namely, a spiral of depression, drinking and debt that culminated in him selling his own daughter. Again, the point of the game is, and remains, not issues of racism, and thus those issues were not undercooked; rather, they served the intended point of illustrating -some- of the consequences of whitewashing the past.


I think you're in the minority thinking Columbia didn't seem idyllic at the start of the game. I suspect many people found the intro to Columbia to be magical. I know I got swept up taking in the sights and sounds, soaking up what felt to me like Heaven on Earth. It really seems like the perfect place. And that's why the stoning at the raffle is so effective; it's absolutely meant to be shocking and jarring, because the point is to establish the bigotry that exists in this society.

It's not even cartoonish: In real life, delicate ladies in sun-dresses would sip lemonade at a picnic on a bright sunny day -- as a black man swung from a noose overhead. This shit happened in America. Infinite's depiction of a biracial couple being rolled out to a jeering, bloodthirsty crowd seems tame compared to the real deal. So I hardly think they were heavy-handed in their approach.

Furthermore, they could've left matters at this scene and it would've been enough to establish the sort of society you're exploring, but scenes like the civil rights group with the Negro printing presses were there to also establish that not -everyone- is so bigoted, and that there are in fact progressives in Columbia, which I thought did an excellent job of making its world seem like a more real and well-rounded place.

Of course, the beauty is that all of these details are secondary to the tale of Booker himself. In the end, the bits and pieces of racism here and there simply add to Columbia as a monument to Booker's sin -- a vivid symbol for where society goes when it uses ideology to excuse its own actions.

I gotta make a distinction with something. Comstock isn't Booker. Comstock is what Booker might have been(although yeah the whole Booker/Comstock thing and how that ties into his arc is the most interesting thing about the game). The weird thing about the game is that Columbia is a symbolic exaggeration of Booker's terrible past, but he's also the most stand up guy there. It never feels like he's coming to terms with his past sins so much as just fighting bad guys, even after the reveal.

And as far as race, I never really got the feeling that Booker was all that racist to begin with. Yeah he took part in atrocities but that's not quite the same thing as just out and out hating black people(in general, I feel Booker becoming Comstock is some serious Stretch Armstrong shit). Maybe there are some audio logs I missed and all, but he seemed to act pretty courteously to all the minorities you run into. Because of that, it doesn't really seem like an essential part of his arc and just something there to provoke. The people of color in the game are merely props to facilitate Booker and I'd kind of rather they just not be there at all in that case.

I really can't agree about Columbia seeming idyllic. It's pretty yeah, but as soon as you get there you're forced to take part in their religious rituals(nothing against religious folks), you overhear people talking about Comstock's divinity, watch people literally worshiping Benjamin Franklin like a god(red alert bro, c'mon) and see how they make monsters out of men. That Handyman clearly doesn't wanna be there, I mean he's pulling a Frankenstein routine right there. They concoct inhuman abominations in labs you don't wanna raise your kids here.
 
To me they were at least hinting at the possibility that Lady Comstock is Booker's wife. The way she describes her life prior to meeting Comstock in her Voxophone recordings makes it seem like she would have run in the same shitty circles as Booker did before she was "saved."

Doesnt Liz also have a match for Lady Comstock's genetic material when she tries to get through the gate? Maybe I am remembering that wrong, but if not I dont see any other explanation for that.
 

Guess Who

Banned
Doesnt Liz also have a match for Lady Comstock's genetic material when she tries to get through the gate? Maybe I am remembering that wrong, but if not I dont see any other explanation for that.

No, she looks like Lady Comstock due to appearance (she's wearing her dress, remember?), but when the gate actually scans her hand it realizes it's not her.
 

nib95

Banned
To answer my own question above, I think I get it now. If the Elizabeth's kill EVERY Booker that goes through the games narrative involving Cocmstock and all the rest, not just the one's that choose baptism, eventually they'll kill enough that there'll be one remaining Booker that does not have a Comstock who tries to buy Anna (repeating the paradox). In other words, through a process of elimination, eventually there is no Comstock to add the variable that loops events and hence the remaining final Booker will just lead out his life with Anna as normal (never selling Anna, nor there even being a Comstock or Elizabeth).

Does that sound right?

My other question then is, what happens to all the Elizabeth's that exist in the other alternate world(s)? Where do they go, or what exactly happens to them?
 

LiK

Member
To answer my own question above, I think I get it now. If the Elizabeth's kill EVERY Booker that goes through the games narrative involving Cocmstock and all the rest, not just the one's that choose baptism, eventually they'll kill enough that there'll be one remaining Booker that does not have a Comstock who tries to buy Anna (repeating the paradox). In other words, through a process of elimination, eventually there is no Comstock to add the variable that loops events and hence the remaining final Booker will just lead out his life with Anna as normal (never selling Anna, nor there even being a Comstock or Elizabeth).

Does that sound right?

My other question then is, what happens to all the Elizabeth's that exist in the other alternate world(s)? Where do they go, or what exactly happens to them?

Elizabeth is gone from existence. She was created by Comstock. No Comstock = no Elizabeth. Only Anna exists now.
 
Everything plot wise I loved, with the exception being the Booker-is-Comstock twist. Following the games own style of lore where only small changes occur from dimension to dimension makes it awkward and not really believable that anything would occur in Bookers life that would transform him into a raving racist obsessed with racial purity and an American Theocracy. And apparently not just in one dimension but in every dimension where he was baptized.
 

DTKT

Member
Did they ever say why killing Booker in a specific universe ends him in all the others? Killing the gunmaker in one universe didn't change the others.
 

Varna

Member
Elizabeth is gone from existence. She was created by Comstock. No Comstock = no Elizabeth. Only Anna exists now.

Now I'm confused again... Elizabeth kills all Booker's before they can make the choice. Booker before he has a child. How is there an Anna?

Did they ever say why killing Booker in a specific universe ends him in all the others? Killing the gunmaker in one universe didn't change the others.

He get killed in all universes.
 

LiK

Member
Now I'm confused again... Elizabeth kills all Booker's before they can make the choice. Booker before he has a child. How is there an Anna?

the theory is, there's a Booker who rejected the baptism in one of the timelines. That's the one that still exists and has Anna.
 

kurahador

Member
Now I'm confused again... Elizabeth kills all Booker's before they can make the choice. Booker before he has a child. How is there an Anna?

Only 2 ways for this to be possible;
-Booker had Anna before baptism
-Liz only drowns Booker who accept baptism.
 

Varna

Member
the theory is, there's a Booker who rejected the baptism in one of the timelines. That's the one that still exists and has Anna.

Why would there be one left? I thought the point of the ending was that as long as there was one Booker who made the choice not to, that meant there was one out there that did and thus become Comstock and all that shit goes down.

Only 2 ways for this to be possible;
-Booker had Anna before baptism
-Liz only drowns Booker who accept baptism.

Elizabeth kills the Booker that didn't go through with the Baptism... before he was able to make the choice.
 

LiK

Member
Why would there be one left? I thought the point of the ending was that as long as there was one Booker who made the choice not to, that meant there was one out there that did and thus become Comstock and all that shit goes down.

the one they drowned is the one who will eventually accept the baptism. only death can prevent that. smother him before he can be reborn.
 

Varna

Member
the one they drowned is the one who will eventually accept the baptism. only death can prevent that. smother him before he can be reborn.

Going by the chart in the OP Elizabeth kills all of them.

It just doesn't make sense that one would be left. The game establishes then when a choice is made, the choice that is not takes form in another universe. Thus Booker choosing not to go through with it creates another that will.
 

Pagusas

Elden Member
Elizabeth kills the Booker that didn't go through with the Baptism... before he was able to make the choice.

But by killing that booker (before the baptism) the baptism thus never happened, Comstock was never created, and thus anna was never stolen and elizabeth was never "created" therefore there was no elizabeth to kill booker.

Making sense now? Think of the universe as a living thing that can correct it self, a paradox was created by Liz killing Booker. So the universe corrected it by making Bookers choice into a non-choice, Booker could only have ever rejected the Baptisim now as thats the way no Liz is created.
 

Varna

Member
Thanks Pagusas.

I guess it's all speculation at this point. Personally I like the idea of Booker getting another chance with Anna. I mentioned it earlier, but it will still be a rough life for them. Assuming there is a Booker out he will still go into a very low point in his life.
 
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