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Bioshock Infinite | Official Spoiler Thread |
- Thread starter BruceLeeRoy
- Start date
Nope. Watch the final scene again.
Liz brings Booker to the baptism ceremony for the second time.
Booker said, "Wait..we've been here." (refer the reject scene earlier)
Liz, "No, this is different." (implies that this is the accept universe)
Btw...I think this is the intended thought process when watching the ending:
-wait, she kills all Booker?? Damn...
<post-credit scene>
-owh ok, i guess she only kills the accept baptism one. Yay!
If anyone wants a video summary, this is the best one I've found yet.
Bioshock Infinite Ending EXPLAINED~Canon explanation with visuals
Perhaps add it to the OP?
Bioshock Infinite Ending EXPLAINED~Canon explanation with visuals
Perhaps add it to the OP?
yea, i sorta think the after credits was to show he they had a happy ending. he's still in debt but i'm gonna be an optimist and assume he will try to do better to have a better life with his kid.
There is a post credit scene...?
don't tell me you skipped the credits! there's even a nice lil extended version of that song between the Booker and Liz voice actors during the credits. you can look it up on Youtube.
Not really. Poor Anna is going to grow up with some junkie drunk gambling dad, and probably not be a shadow of her Elizabeth self.
Anyway, lets have a vote, how many of you think she killed ALL Bookers before they took the baptism decision, and how many of you think she killed ONLY the Booker that accepted baptism (thus stopping only a version of Booker that would become Comstock)?
I've never watched a credit scene in my entire life. :/
Oh well, something to look forward to when I play the game again. Once some DLC is out.
This is what I've been saying! But who knows, he did regret giving her away. Maybe she is the thing that turns his life around. Though how he will get out of all that debt... Oh, DLC idea! Bank robber Booker!
I like the idea of Booker getting a second chance. Though the former makes more sense to me..
Oh well, something to look forward to when I play the game again. Once some DLC is out.
This is what I've been saying! But who knows, he did regret giving her away. Maybe she is the thing that turns his life around. Though how he will get out of all that debt... Oh, DLC idea! Bank robber Booker!
I like the idea of Booker getting a second chance. Though the former makes more sense to me..
Anna ends up being a hooker
You read my theory. Only the Booker who died was the one who would be baptized.
yea, let the credits play. totally worth it.
Just watch it on YouTube. It's literally only a few seconds long. Just him waking up in that room, calling for Anna, and going in to the room where her cot is. You never see if she's inside or not, though presumably she is.
if he liked the guitar scene, he should totally look up the full credits as well. i really liked that lil jam session with Levine during the credits.
I don't see Columbia as symbolic of Booker's past. I see it more as emblematic of the way he rationalized his wrongdoing in another timeline where he became Comstock. The city of Columbia is the result of "rationalization," while Booker's sequestered existence in his apartment is the result of "depression" (used here to mean living with guilt).
Booker -was- racist, back when he was a 20-something at Wounded Knee; he killed partly out of racism, and enjoyed it, and partly to prove himself to his fellow soldiers (since Booker himself has Indian blood). But here's the thing: The Booker we play we as is no longer racist. This is the "catch" to Depression Booker, the Booker who rejected baptism and believed himself irredeemable; while he is trapped in a vicious cycle of drinking and debt, he at least he did not rationalize away his wrongdoing. Instead, he lived with the guilt, and since he lived with the guilt, he eventually came to see racism for its inherent ugliness. He never stopped feeling guilty, and that guilt inhibited further racism.
Now Rationalization Booker, aka Comstock, did the opposite: Baptism "washed away" his sins, and born again as Comstock, he not only felt forgiven what he had done, but justified in it. He came away from baptism with a new sense of self, a newfound charisma and confidence and conviction that attracted followers and reinforced his racist beliefs as more and more people echoed his cult of personality. He became politically influential, and, unbound by any pity for minorities, he steamrolled them. He became the opposite of Depression Booker -- he became somebody, somebody who has everything, everything but a sense of remorse for past ills and any desire to do better.
I've seen people do this in real-life. Not to Comstock's extreme, of course, but I've seen people "born again" who become more bigoted for it. It's terrible, and a result of ideology whitewashing one's past and filling in thought and reflection with dogmatic absolutes.
OK, that's true, there is a bit of eyebrow-raising stuff, but at the same time there is abundant sunshine, greenery, glorious monuments/architecture, shoe-shiners, bakeries, creameries, candy stores, cafes, restaurants, gift shops, cobblestone streets, kids playing in a fire hydrant, people picnicking, parades, flower boutiques, and so on, and so forth. It's just a quaint and peaceful place.
The forlorn Handyman aside, and ignoring any personal misgivings about cults for the moment, there is just an idyllic state of existence in Columbia, one not unlike depictions of the "good ol' days" of the Deep South. Of course, like the Deep South back then, the shiny exterior conceals an ugly underbelly of racism... I felt it was well-done.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Anyone figured out if Songbird in Bio1 is a giant April Fools YouTube video?
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
There is broken image links? I don't see them Nib.
Its not, someone confirmed its the same or very similiar sound file, but the one in BS1 is on repeat and not only played once during the game
came to confirm there are no broken images here either.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Anna ends up being a hooker
You read my theory. Only the Booker who died was the one who would be baptized.
yea, let the credits play. totally worth it.
This is what depresses me. But the way that Booker opens the door, is as if he remembered what happened or something. I hope. That'd make him a good parent.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
the lil hint there was he yelled out for Anna and went to check. that makes me think he sorta remembers what happened or had some sort of premonition. hopefully, it means he'll take good care of Anna.
no prob
Precisely, and you see this exact theme reflected in the two worlds later on. On one hand you have the world where the Vox never rise up, one that is idyllic, but one that hides it's dirt underground and views the atrocities commited to establish Columbia in a perverted, rationalized way. Then you have the Vox universe where hatred for racists causes people to just go overboard, killing people in the name of justice and revenge.
These two worlds are entirely parallel to the characters of Comstock and Booker. The Comstock comparison is obvious, but you, the player, as Booker, is no different from the Vox. I remember walking through the early chapters of the game, unravelling the layers upon layers of institutionalized racism and oppression and thinking "I can't wait to give these people what's coming to them" and I imagine many others felt that way too. So throughout at least the first half of the game, you justify the killing of all these people left and right because you view them as deserving of punishment, and thus you're really no different than Fitzroy.
So when Booker says Comstock and Fitzroy are one and the same, perhaps this is an allusion to the fact that Comstock and Booker are one and the same.
Auto_aim1
MeisaMcCaffrey
Is this legit?
Bioshock Infinite - not only is Wounded Knee a real event, Booker and Slate were real troopers
http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1c1kas/bioshock_infinite_not_only_is_wounded_knee_a_real/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_Massacre
Bioshock Infinite - not only is Wounded Knee a real event, Booker and Slate were real troopers
http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1c1kas/bioshock_infinite_not_only_is_wounded_knee_a_real/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_Massacre
Fake: This page was last modified on 10 April 2013 at 03:25.
Wounded Knee is real, but some asshole edited in those names.
The One Who Knocks
Member
Elizabeth must still exist. The circle was not broke.
Freewheelin'
Member
Finished the game a few days ago.
Still thinking about it. Haven't played another game since :lol
Brilliant story and world. The themes that they have (religion, birth, death, racism, space/time etc) are so well-detailed and so deep, I've not seen them all done together in a game before. VERY ambitious and interesting. Shooting galleries are still massively dull though, just wish the game hadn't featured that, as it kinda ruins future playthroughs for me.
I think I understand the story now, thanks to this thread.
Still thinking about it. Haven't played another game since :lol
Brilliant story and world. The themes that they have (religion, birth, death, racism, space/time etc) are so well-detailed and so deep, I've not seen them all done together in a game before. VERY ambitious and interesting. Shooting galleries are still massively dull though, just wish the game hadn't featured that, as it kinda ruins future playthroughs for me.
I think I understand the story now, thanks to this thread.
gollumsluvslave
Member
Completed it last night, and whilst I really admire the intricacy of the story and effort that went into managing timelines, I still have a fundamental issue (i've noted my gameplay issues in the OT and elsewhere).
Ok, if we assume that the Baptism is the constant and 'touchpaper' for everything, what I have issue with is this:-
The story apparently forgets the 'Infinite' tag with the 'accept the baptism' decision having a single outcome of Booker -> Comstock -> maniacal despot/ religious nut.
Where are the shades of grey? Where is the possibility that Booker accepts the baptism and DOES NOT become Comstock, but instead it brings him some semblance of peace (and every variation in between)? In Infinite universes and timelines these possibilities must exist no?
Now, I'm not a religious person, but I do know some people that take comfort in their faith and it works for them.
Having a hardwired constant where accepting the baptism always leads to him as a religious despot is a bit heavy-handed for my tastes.
Ok, if we assume that the Baptism is the constant and 'touchpaper' for everything, what I have issue with is this:-
The story apparently forgets the 'Infinite' tag with the 'accept the baptism' decision having a single outcome of Booker -> Comstock -> maniacal despot/ religious nut.
Where are the shades of grey? Where is the possibility that Booker accepts the baptism and DOES NOT become Comstock, but instead it brings him some semblance of peace (and every variation in between)? In Infinite universes and timelines these possibilities must exist no?
Now, I'm not a religious person, but I do know some people that take comfort in their faith and it works for them.
Having a hardwired constant where accepting the baptism always leads to him as a religious despot is a bit heavy-handed for my tastes.
Yes...but that's in another timeline/universe with their own Booker/Elizabeth handling them.
Calamari41
41 > 38
Every time I quote somebody to try to answer their question because I know the answer, I end up typing and re-typing and then confusing myself and deleting the whole thing. I love this game.
SirMossyBloke
Member
Bah.
Finished it twice now and still missed one telescope and two infusions. Yet I managed to get all voxophones.
I may try 1999 mode but Comstock's ship is still hard as hell. I have no idea how i'd do it. Boarding the zeppelins instead of using the Songbird, as someone suggested, is really, really slow. Not sure how to approach it.
Finished it twice now and still missed one telescope and two infusions. Yet I managed to get all voxophones.
I may try 1999 mode but Comstock's ship is still hard as hell. I have no idea how i'd do it. Boarding the zeppelins instead of using the Songbird, as someone suggested, is really, really slow. Not sure how to approach it.
Coffee Dog
Banned
So I just beat this about an hour ago, why the hell did booker need to die exactly? She said she wanted to get rid of all comstocks, but that's fucking impossible. Because even if she drowns booker, even if she wipes out all the comstocks that came from that baptism, there's still countless timelines where she doesn't drown booker at the end, even if she drowns him here. That's the nature of divergent timelines, something she actually just lectured the player on when giving you the examples of rapture and showing all the lighthouses and possibilities. Hell, there are near infinite comstocks still, all across the multiverse, that branch off from the actions in this game. That's what infinity is. Her failure to grasp the nature of what she was just lecturing booker about is frustrating.
Booker didn't need to be sacrificed for her vain little quest of futility, she should have let the man be fucking happy in his own timeline that he worked his ass off to save.
Edit: I'm more grumpy with this ending than I should be. I thought the ending was great up until then, too.
Booker didn't need to be sacrificed for her vain little quest of futility, she should have let the man be fucking happy in his own timeline that he worked his ass off to save.
Edit: I'm more grumpy with this ending than I should be. I thought the ending was great up until then, too.
The telescopes/kinetoscopes can be pretty easily grabbed by just loading up the chapter where you've missed them. Use a guide to see which ones you don't have. Doesn't seem to work for the infusions though, they all have to be grabbed in one playthrough.SirMossyBloke said:
And yeah Comstock's ship was difficult... played on Hard and that along with the Siren fights (specifically the first one) were the only times it got really frustrating. Just started a 1999 run and don't look forward to those fights, as ammo was scarce as hell already.
Other than those moments I loved every single second of the game. Probably the best game of the generation for me.
Doesn't Elizabeth specifically state that they're not 'done' as long as the POSSIBILITY for Comstock to exist...exists? I don't recall anything about it being inevitable that the baptism leads to him becoming an evil religous leader, just that the baptism is where that possibility was created so that's where they have to end it.
But it's all pretty fresh and jumbled in my memory, just finished it last night and I need another playthrough to fully digest everything, even if the OP of this thread does a marvelous job of clearing things up.
gollumsluvslave
Member
@Pringles
This is where things get tricky with Paradoxes, I had similar 'my head hurts' sessions trying to digest Looper, and it was much more tighlty focussed and simple IMO.
IMO, as Comstock and Booker were the same person, the possibility for him to exist was NOT created at the Baptism; I would argue at the very simplest that the possibility of Comstock was birthed at Wounded Knee, the source of the trauma.
So I guess tying the birthing of the 'Comstock possiblity' to something religious is what I find heavy-handed.
Maybe another way for me to phrase it is that the story doesn't allow for any possibilty in the infinite 'rejection' timelines for the existence of Comstock? Surely there would be a varied future in there where the angry Booker rejecting the Baptism still becomes Comstock (just maybe not a Prophet), and the one that accepts that Baptism has Anna and the futures and roles are totally reversed. This eventuality is not catered for IMO, of course exploring it simply makes things even murkier and harder to follow!
But as far as the paradox handling goes it's fine, it's more thematic nitpicking that I'm doing, and I think the 'choice and consequence' motif is undermined in it's effectiveness.
What if for example, the 'fulcrum' moment where Comstock was birthed was a scene at Wounded Knee where Booker had (or not) to kill a child? That would have so many thematic touch points it would have been far more compelling to me. Probably too controversial I'm sure, but it would have resonated and made much more sense.
The Booker that chose to descend into savagery with the other soldiers and killed the child -> Comstock
The Booker that resisted and maintained some semblance of humanity in such a Trauma -> game Booker.
This echoes Little Sister Harvesting, the choice to sell Elizabeth, so many things.
Whether or not Irrational intended it this way, I just don't like the the simplistic resolution that implies 'Reject religion, OK - Embrace it, NOT OK'. Too simplistic and trite for me.
This is where things get tricky with Paradoxes, I had similar 'my head hurts' sessions trying to digest Looper, and it was much more tighlty focussed and simple IMO.
IMO, as Comstock and Booker were the same person, the possibility for him to exist was NOT created at the Baptism; I would argue at the very simplest that the possibility of Comstock was birthed at Wounded Knee, the source of the trauma.
So I guess tying the birthing of the 'Comstock possiblity' to something religious is what I find heavy-handed.
Maybe another way for me to phrase it is that the story doesn't allow for any possibilty in the infinite 'rejection' timelines for the existence of Comstock? Surely there would be a varied future in there where the angry Booker rejecting the Baptism still becomes Comstock (just maybe not a Prophet), and the one that accepts that Baptism has Anna and the futures and roles are totally reversed. This eventuality is not catered for IMO, of course exploring it simply makes things even murkier and harder to follow!
But as far as the paradox handling goes it's fine, it's more thematic nitpicking that I'm doing, and I think the 'choice and consequence' motif is undermined in it's effectiveness.
What if for example, the 'fulcrum' moment where Comstock was birthed was a scene at Wounded Knee where Booker had (or not) to kill a child? That would have so many thematic touch points it would have been far more compelling to me. Probably too controversial I'm sure, but it would have resonated and made much more sense.
The Booker that chose to descend into savagery with the other soldiers and killed the child -> Comstock
The Booker that resisted and maintained some semblance of humanity in such a Trauma -> game Booker.
This echoes Little Sister Harvesting, the choice to sell Elizabeth, so many things.
Whether or not Irrational intended it this way, I just don't like the the simplistic resolution that implies 'Reject religion, OK - Embrace it, NOT OK'. Too simplistic and trite for me.
I'm right there with you man. I think we all want the logic of the ending to line up perfectly so we can have this awesome validation from the game, but in reality it just doesn't make complete sense. The justification for her drowning Booker and undoing all kinds of things (including herself) is weak considering how many infinite possibility spaces and timelines exist. What do a few possible timelines matter to her when she can basically see where all roads lead, including roads to completely alternate universes where neither Comstock nor Booker existed? And since she can travel to other realities and continue to exist in them, regardless of whether or not she originally existed in them, she can basically pick which reality to live in.
Of course I applaud this game for reaching for such lofty story concepts, but I think time will show that it never tied everything together perfectly.
Like the quote from Lutece went: "The mind of the subject (player) will desperately struggle to create memories (rationalizations) where none exist..."
Um... in case you missed it, Comstock's entire existence is pretty entirely religious. The baptism and his turn are heavily intertwined.
Then he's not Comstock. I mean, he is in name, but for the purposes of what the game is talking about he's not Comstock. He's not the prophet they were looking to stop.
If you read the OP, there's several explanations and theories where what happens does in fact make sense:
UltimaPooh
Member
As anyone brought up the possibility that there are an infinite number of universes in which Liz fails at killing Booker before the baptism and then from that there are infinite universes where Comstock lives? Then from that there are probably a bunch of other different possibilities.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Yeah, I did in my post at the top of the page. It...really distracted me when I played the ending, because that was the first thing I thought when she suggested that. She just showed me how infinite the universe truly was, and it helped me recognize that she was being very, very shortsighted two minutes later.
Hot Coldman
Banned
I kinda think it's bullshit that they gave Comstock a different voice actor. Like, I get why, but Baker seems talented enough to pull off two different performances without giving the game away.
gollumsluvslave
Member
But that's exactly what I find heavy-handed. So we could only have had Columbia and a racist bigot tyrant figure that wanted an Heir to conquer the rest of the world if he was a religious prophet? Not an Andrew Ryan style entrepreneur that rejects God is tormented by his demons and effectively allows a similar narrative?
I don't agree with that, remember, we are talking INFINITE possibilities and timelines here. It's his actions that are important here in terms of the game narrative (the game's story is all about Elizabeth and Booker IMO, not the religious/racist backdrop), and the KEY action is the 'baddie' Booker (regardless of whether he has daubed himself Comstock, Hitler or Darth Vader!) buying an alternate realities 'goodie' Booker's daughter, and grooming her as an heir against her will.
That story arc could (and in infinite timelines would!!) happen where the Accept Booker goes on to have the girl and be the 'goodie', and the Reject Booker goes on to buy the girl and be the 'baddie'.
I just think there should have been more significance placed on the actual source of the trauma (Wounded Knee) than the 'wash away your sins' stuff.
Again, this is all just an IMO, and as ever YMMV. It's an interesting discussion regardless, and that rarely happens with game stories.
I thought Booker was a bigger change from past Booker than Comstock was. It's actually non-baptized Booker that becomes a new man.
MMBosstones86
Member
Yes, the ending is a complete mind-fuck and since they brought up 'infinite' its hard to not go 'but but....what if....' about every decision.
I just try to look at it as far as constants and variables, a theme they try and drive home all game. Baptism being the constant amongst all timelines, choosing the accept or reject the baptism is the variable.
As far as we know, the ONLY that situation we know that creates Comstock is accepting the baptism. Of course, in a different universe a 'comstock' may be created based on different circumstances, but that isn't the Comstock we know. Therefore, it really doesn't matter in the scope of this game.
The ending is only about destroying the Comstock that came from accepting the Baptism. So yes, other 'men' (Ryan, Comstock, Lamb) will exist and drowning Booker will not destroy any of them.
edit : in the time it took me to come up with this....it has already been posted multiple times haha
I just try to look at it as far as constants and variables, a theme they try and drive home all game. Baptism being the constant amongst all timelines, choosing the accept or reject the baptism is the variable.
As far as we know, the ONLY that situation we know that creates Comstock is accepting the baptism. Of course, in a different universe a 'comstock' may be created based on different circumstances, but that isn't the Comstock we know. Therefore, it really doesn't matter in the scope of this game.
The ending is only about destroying the Comstock that came from accepting the Baptism. So yes, other 'men' (Ryan, Comstock, Lamb) will exist and drowning Booker will not destroy any of them.
IMO anyway....
edit : in the time it took me to come up with this....it has already been posted multiple times haha
The One Who Knocks
Member
If one Booker succeeds in making Elizabeth omnipotent and Elizabeth thus simultaneously murdering all Bookers (either before the choice to accept or reject or the name choice, it's irrelevant) and turning the variable into a constant then no universe can exist where Booker/Elizabeth fails.
Edit: Good explanation by RDreamer below.