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[Ill Saint]

The moral of the Vox revolution? "If you want to change the world, don't lose your humanity in the process."

Like the various real-life revolutions mentioned in this thread, that's what happened here: The Vox went from being oppressed to exterminating every man, woman and child of European descent. They went from suffering great evil, to committing great evil. The game set up our hopes things would turn out for the better; it made us sympathetic to the Vox and why they felt the way they did. But it also showed us the real-world peril of revolution, the risk of fighting monsters and becoming one in the process. In this case, the Vox became their own sort of racist, and one where the utter destruction of anyone not like themselves was the only way.

Violence begets violence. But will the circle go unbroken?

Also, as EliCash said, it's good they didn't whitewash Daisy. The "PC" route would've been to make the black revolutionary a saint, but that would've been boring and disingenuous. In the end, she showed her own corruptibility to power. One of her recordings even indicated the "white man has no place at their table" or some such. Reminds me of another videogame depiction that tried something similar, namely the Mexican usurper in the second act of Red Dead Redemption. You help him displace the dictator, and then as you're heading out of Mexico, you can't help but wonder if they're really better off than they were before, even though the new dictator was the "voice of the people" (the English translation of Vox Populi, btw).

In my view, the handling of Daisy's character and the Vox in general was very much a copout by a writer who was afraid to make a stand one way or the other on the various issues and politics (simplistic as they might be--which in Infinite's case is extremely so) brought up in the story, and so took the easy way out and sat on the fence, painting both sides as no better than the other. On the other hand, that's not to say Daisy should have been portrayed as a 'saint', but with the way the whole story went down I was left wondering what the point of her inclusion was if anything other than filler to pad out the game. It would have taken more balls to portray one triumphing over the other through a great script, than simply washing hands of Daisy and the Vox.

And this notion of the rebel who becomes that which he fought against is also very much a cliché. Nothing new there.

At least in RDR the similar scenario was handled with a bit more subtlety, and had more facets to it in terms of characterisation and story arc than the rather simplistic and throwaway approach in Infinite.

 

[DatDude]

In my view, the handling of Daisy's character and the Vox in general was very much a copout by a writer who was afraid to make a stand one way or the other on the various issues and politics (simplistic as they might be--which in Infinite's case is extremely so) brought up in the story, and so took the easy way out and sat on the fence, painting both sides as no better than the other. On the other hand, that's not to say she should have been portrayed as a 'saint', but with the way the whole story went down I was left wondering what the point of her inclusion was if anything other than filler to pad out the game. It would have taken more balls to portray one triumphing over the other through a great script, than simply washing hands of Daisy and the Vox.

And this notion of the rebel who becomes that which he fought against is also very much a cliché. Nothing new there.

At least in RDR the similar scenario was handled with a bit more subtlety, and had more facets to it in terms of characterisation and story arc than the rather simplistic and throwaway approach in Infinite.

A copout? You'd have a point if the main focal point of this narrative was about the Vox Populi and Daisy fitzory, but they weren't. It was always from second 1 about Booker and his quest towards redemption and finding Elizabeth.

Everything in between was the means to carry forward the narrative to where it needed to go.

 

[Ill Saint]

A copout? You'd have a point if the main focal point of this narrative was about the Vox Populi and Daisy fitzory, but they weren't. It was always from second 1 about Booker and his quest towards redemption and finding Elizabeth.

Everything in between was the means to carry forward the narrative to where it needed to go.

I certainly do have a point, and I made it pretty clearly.
Just to reiterate for you: Daisy and the Vox were presented as a significant part of the narrative, and that the handling of the politics and themes presented through her arc--that being her portrayal as no better than Comstock--was, in my view, a copout. That the story is ultimately about Booker and Elizabeth is irrelevant to my point.

 

[DatDude]

I certainly do have a point, and I made it pretty clearly.
Just to reiterate for you: Daisy and the Vox were presented as a significant part of the narrative, and that the handling of the politics and themes presented through her arc--that being her portrayal as no better than Comstock--was, in my view, a copout. That the story is ultimately about Booker and Elizabeth is irrelevant to my point.

That's where I disagree with you. The whole sub narrative arch of Daisy and the Vox weren't presented as a significant part of the narrative.

 

[Toa TAK]

A copout? You'd have a point if the main focal point of this narrative was about the Vox Populi and Daisy fitzory, but they weren't. It was always from second 1 about Booker and his quest towards redemption and finding Elizabeth.

Everything in between was the means to carry forward the narrative to where it needed to go.

This is really how I've come to view it during my initial run of the game. I don't think the story was really set on making a point about social classes or race or religion or any of that nonsense. It was clear that the story was about Booker and Elizabeth.

 

[MartyStu]

That's where I disagree with you. The whole sub narrative arch of Daisy and the Vox weren't presented as a significant part of the narrative.

This is where you are wrong.

As far as the player is concerned, it was not THE ultimate story, but it featured very prominently.

Hell, I feel like it took way too much focus from the main thread at times.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

This is really how I've come to view it during my initial run of the game. I don't think the story was really set on making a point about social classes or race or religion or any of that nonsense. It was clear that the story was about Booker and Elizabeth.

Bingo.. It's much more about choice, narrative and the unique perspective a video game allows a story to be experienced and told.

 

[DatDude]

This is where you are wrong.

As far as the player is concerned, it was not THE ultimate story, but it featured very prominently.

Hell, I feel like it took way too much focus from the main thread at times.

Agree to disagree then.

Yes, it was featured prominently, but at the same time I believe it nicely fulfilled it's purpose (which was to be a bridge for the main narrative of Booker and Liz), and never outstayed its welcome.

 

[Neiteio]

Setting a story against a racially charged backdrop doesn't mean the author is obligated to take a Dyack-style "for or against" position on the matter, not to mention it'd be boring if they did, since it's a foregone conclusion no one's going to take a "pro-racism" stance.

In general, I much prefer how Infinite handles race and revolution, taking a more holistic approach of showing human ugliness from all angles, including the misdeeds of the minorities. It's about the cycle of violence, and violence ultimately doesn't have a skin color.

Regarding Daisy, she is not supposed to be some cliché hero who spouts off one-liners about the evils of racism and then dies a heroic death. Talk about limiting the roles of colored characters if that's what you want from them. No, she is supposed to be an actual human who, like so many revolutionaries in history, becomes corrupted by power and develops her own cult of personality. It's not enough to topple those in power; she's "pulling them up by the roots," as she puts it, in what ends up being an effective genocide including women and children. Her group, driven by blind ideology, took things too far. This is a far more bold -- and historically accurate -- reality to depict.

Again, what I like about Infinite is it treats everyone as -humans.- Racists are not all good or all bad. Oppressed minorities are not all good or all bad. Both sides are capable of evil, because both sides are human. The game is about cyclical violence in human society, and how it's caused by ideology, ideology being when we listen to dogma instead of our hearts. In this case, it's the ideology Booker choose when he became Comstock, ignoring what his heart told him was wrong in the wake of Wounded Knee, and leading to the hotbed microcosm of oppression that is Columbia.

 

[King Beyond the wall]

Setting a story against a racially charged backdrop doesn't mean the author is obligated to take a Dyack-style "for or against" position on the matter, not to mention it'd be boring if they did, since it's a foregone conclusion no one's going to take a "pro-racism" stance.

In general, I much prefer how Infinite handles race and revolution, taking a more holistic approach of showing human ugliness from all angles, including the misdeeds of the minorities. It's about the cycle of violence, and violence ultimately doesn't have a skin color.

Regarding Daisy, she is not supposed to be some cliché hero who spouts off one-liners about the evils of racism and then dies a heroic death. Talk about limiting the roles of colored characters if that's what you want from them. No, she is supposed to be an actual human who, like so many revolutionaries in history, becomes corrupted by power and develops her own cult of personality. It's not enough to topple those in power; she's "pulling them up by the roots," as she puts it, in what ends up being an effective genocide including women and children. Her group, driven by blind ideology, took things too far. This is a far more bold -- and historically accurate -- reality to depict.

Again, what I like about Infinite is it treats everyone as -humans.- Racists are not all good or all bad. Oppressed minorities are not all good or all bad. Both sides are capable of evil, because both sides are human. The game is about cyclical violence in human society, and how it's caused by ideology, ideology being when we listen to dogma instead of our hearts. In this case, it's the ideology Booker choose when he became Comstock, ignoring what his heart told him was wrong in the wake of Wounded Knee, and leading to the hotbed microcosm of oppression that is Columbia.

It's the nature of revolution really. The vox needed to completely tear up the established society if they wanted to assume power and this required brutal murder and devastation. The founders were fighting for their lives and thereby fought back in a similarly brutal fashion. Revolution blurs the lines between good and bad, and war aims are often forgotten in the process. The Russian revolution of 1917 is most comparable to this, and that revolution resulted in a civil war that cost millions of lives.

 

[kirblar]

If you don't believe Neiteio on the Revolution stuff- just go look at what's happened in Egypt.

 

[Aaron]

That's where I disagree with you. The whole sub narrative arch of Daisy and the Vox weren't presented as a significant part of the narrative.

A large chunk of the game is all about the Vox. Comstock completely falls out of the stories to let this sub-threads of Slate, Fink, and Daisy rise to the surface. All of them though get the short shrift though because this a game, so they have to become crazy murdering psychos to give the player something to fight, and get stripped of any possible character.

 

[DatDude]

A large chunk of the game is all about the Vox. Comstock completely falls out of the stories to let this sub-threads of Slate, Fink, and Daisy rise to the surface. All of them though get the short shrift though because this a game, so they have to become crazy murdering psychos to give the player something to fight, and get stripped of any possible character.

I don't disagree that a large chunk of the game involved the Vox.

All I'm saying is that it was never the focus of the narrative. The events that happened during that specific narrative arch was never meant to have as large of a focus that you all seem to think there should have been. It served it's purpose, which was to bridge the narrative forward.

 

[Neiteio]

I don't disagree that a large chunk of the game involved the Vox.

All I'm saying is that it was never the focus of the narrative. The events that happened during that specific narrative arch was never meant to have as large of a focus that you all seem to think there should have been. It served it's purpose, which was to bridge the narrative forward.

The Vox were more than just a "bridge to move the narrative forward," though. They're one-half of the circle that needs to be broken, so to speak. The other half being Comstock and the Founders. The circle, then, is oppression and revolution, a never-ending cycle of violence. And what keeps that circle turning? Ideology. Ideology being what turned Booker into Comstock when he ran from responsibility over his actions at Wounded Knee and turned to baptism (read: religion; read: ideology) for absolution. The game's narrative is about accepting responsibility for how we treat others, and not letting ideology justify hate (Founders) or violence (Vox). That's how the "circle is broken."

 

[Aaron]

I don't disagree that a large chunk of the game involved the Vox.

All I'm saying is that it was never the focus of the narrative. The events that happened during that specific narrative arch was never meant to have as large of a focus that you all seem to think there should have been. It served it's purpose, which was to bridge the narrative forward.

I don't think the focus needed to be expanded, but I think it needed to end better than it did. Bioshock Infinite often feels like a serial TV show like Lost, where a number of narrative threads are brought up along with the main storyline, but most of those just sort of get brushed aside and not properly dealt with. In this case I feel because they would get in the way of the violence. It makes no sense for the Vox to uniformly turn against Booker when he is almost defied by them, especially after Daisy's death when they have no clear leader. They end up identical to fight anyway. They should have remained Comstock's forces. The final battle could be their revenge for the death of their prophet.

 

[Neiteio]

I don't think the focus needed to be expanded, but I think it needed to end better than it did. Bioshock Infinite often feels like a serial TV show like Lost, where a number of narrative threads are brought up along with the main storyline, but most of those just sort of get brushed aside and not properly dealt with. In this case I feel because they would get in the way of the violence. It makes no sense for the Vox to uniformly turn against Booker when he is almost defied by them, especially after Daisy's death when they have no clear leader. They end up identical to fight anyway. They should have remained Comstock's forces. The final battle could be their revenge for the death of their prophet.

Daisy had told her followers that the Booker we play is an imposter of the Booker who died a martyr leading the revolution. They were honoring Daisy's vision. And the fact you're on the Hand of the Prophet at the end probably doesn't help the Vox to think you're not a Founder!

 

[mrklaw]

So I spent the entire game brutally killing hundreds of people in front of my daughter and looking at her boobs. Sorry Anna


I'm running away from this thread now because somebody just mentioned VLR and I haven't got to that yet. If I brutally kill hundreds of people and look at my daughters' boobs in that too I'll be pissed. Although being a Japanese game the former isn't that likely

 

[Aaron]

Daisy had told her followers that the Booker we play is an imposter of the Booker who died a martyr leading the revolution. They were honoring Daisy's vision. And the fact you're on the Hand of the Prophet at the end probably doesn't help the Vox to think you're not a Founder!

By the end, the Vox have more airships and military than Comstock. It's silly. The fact that Daisy decides this, and just turns into a murderous bitch without every really speaking with Booker is lame. The fact the Vox have their own handimen and crow guys from Comstock's own order is ridiculous. It would make more sense if the Vox were revealed to be robots. The Vox can be murdering hooligans without turning on Booker to give him more fodder to kill. It's just poorly done.

 

[Salamando]

Feel as though it's time for the usual reminder that what the Vox did was exactly like what Booker did during Wounded Knee, complete with scalping. It's quite possible that the Vox Revolution happened like it did because of Booker. Slate was working with the Vox, and likely told them what Booker did while vouching for him...or maybe he just ranted about it while in the Hall of Heroes. Turn Booker into a martyr, and you'll have a lot of people looking to him as inspiration and doing what he did.

 

[Neiteio]

By the end, the Vox have more airships and military than Comstock. It's silly. The fact that Daisy decides this, and just turns into a murderous bitch without every really speaking with Booker is lame. The fact the Vox have their own handimen and crow guys from Comstock's own order is ridiculous. It would make more sense if the Vox were revealed to be robots. The Vox can be murdering hooligans without turning on Booker to give him more fodder to kill. It's just poorly done.

None of the points you mention are silly or beyond the game's internal logic.

1) Daisy has no concept of multiverses. All she knows is the Booker who was her friend died a martyr for their cause. So now she sees you, and what does she think? Exactly what she says: you're either a ghost, or a deception sent by Comstock.

2) Regarding Vox military power, they have sizable forces at the end. During the reversal of fortune in Shantytown, they're still early in their assault on Fink's factory, etc. They're on the cusp of winning the war when the game reaches Emporia, after Daisy's death. And the surviving Founders are still putting up a fight here and there. No amount of firepower makes it unreasonable Daisy would take issue with you for the reason listed in point #1, though.

3) Regarding the Vox having their own crows, Handyman, etc, it's not unreasonable to think someone among their ranks may have used Murder of Crows, or that they may have taken in a neglected Autobody, or that a Founder may have been a Vox sympathizer and/or joining the winning team to save his own hide.

4) Again, the Vox are murdering hooligans, as you said, but why would that preclude them from attacking another non-Vox such as yourself, namely a non-Vox who their dying leader indicated is an imposter.

It's not poorly done. The Vox are justified within their use as adversaries to the player.

 

[EliCash]

I can only second what Neiteio's said with regards to the Vox stuff.

Interesting analysis even though I disagree with several aspects of it, particularly with the underdeveloped supporting characterizations being a positive. I'd like to have gotten more from both her and Fink in the game's narrative proper, and not just thrown in the background as exposition to find on Voxophones. The game is very focused on Booker and Elizabeth, which gives them some strong characterization and an interesting character arc to watch, but it does seem to come at the expense of other characters in the world.

Which is fair enough, it's a common criticism I've read here and elsewhere, and one that's understandable and pretty hard to dismiss. I just personally think that with the Bioshock games we are getting just a glimpse of these worlds; and I think there's an element of realism to the aspect of being dropped in to this dystopia with absolutely no idea about anything. You're not going to know everything, and I like that element of mystery - even if it's just a side characters background. Everything you look at helps to unravel what Columbia really is, and the Voxophones help flesh out the history of the city and it's residents in an interesting and rewarding way. I think Infinite succeeds on that front more than the first did. I can see the argument that that stuff should be wholly exposed in the in game narrative, but I disagree with it, focus has to be kept on Booker and Elizabeth. Also I actually think we may have got too much information with some of the Voxophones. I think we got just the right amount of Daisy and Fink, and I like how you arrive just in time to see Fink's fate and just in time to stop Daisy from killing a child (again, Daisy's angle was done right as it also serves as a slight parallel to Booker at Wounded Knee, and Daisy's belief that a revolution can allow no compromise, only upheaval, and "pulling it out at the root" is interesting foreshadowing to what comes later - Booker deciding to go and strangle baby Comstock in his crib.)

I guess my point is that I don't think the fact that we don't get told absolutely everything is due to laziness. I think we get everything we need to know about those characters with a glimpse. We first see Fink in the role of some sort of jovial mayor, swaying with the citizen's of Columbia to Leadbelly's "Goodnight, Irene" then he hands us a baseball to throw at a black person and a white man who is in love with a black person and jokingly hopes that we don't "take our coffee black these days". From that point on you know just about everything you need to know about Fink. Arriving at his factory and seeing the chain gangs, the hopeful workers,the propaganda posters and hearing his voice over the intercom expressing his abhorrent workers ethics ("be the bee") - I think that fleshes everything out quite nicely. Then we get told he needs a new head of security, he killed his last one, and he ends up getting shot in the face unmercifully by Daisy Fitzroy, who you armed. I think all that is done in an intelligent way, in that there's a sense that things are playing out regardless of your presence in the city, but at the same time you are also completely implicated in this as you armed the revolution and set all this in motion.

Apologies, lengthy response and I'm rambling, but I only finished this a few days ago and it's all I really want to talk about. Read every post in this thread last night, got a lot of impressions I want to post and points to agree and disagree with. I've never known of a game to spark such interesting discussion, even outside of the multiverse and ending theories. Great OP and some really great posts.

TL;DR We get a full characterization of Fink entirely through his moustache.

 

[Estocolmo]

Why did Booker Dewitt change his name to Zachary Hale Comstock?

 

[Trigger]

Why did Booker Dewitt change his name to Zachary Hale Comstock?

I understood it to be part of the process of forgiving himself for what he did at Wounded Knee. A new name and identity to restart his life.

 

[Estocolmo]

I understood it to be part of the process of forgiving himself for what he did at Wounded Knee. A new name and identity to restart his life.

I also thought about that. But at the same time, Comstock didnt have any problem bragging about his feats in wounded knee.

 

[EGM1966]

Why did Booker Dewitt change his name to Zachary Hale Comstock?

Various in context reasons with the obvious implication it was just one element of remaking himself and cutting ties fully with his past. He adapts elements of his past he wants to use (war hero at Wounded Knee) to his new persona.

From a narrative perspective he had have a different name as one of the big twists would have been pretty obvious if you start the game as Booker DeWitt and in a short period of time drift by a poster of an older Booker DeWitt proclaiming he is the prophet.

This is also why Anna was renamed to Elizabeth despite the fact she'd been taken to a different Universe/timeline where she could have still been called Anna just as easily (admittedly reasons for renaming a secretly acquired child are easier to grasp with little context than why a man would change his name).

 

[mrklaw]

so did Slade ever say anything to hint at Booker's identity? Presumably from how Booker talks he knew him at Wounded Knee, and surely he'd know who Comstock is now, yet he never mentions a connection explicitly

 

[Dyno]

Why did Booker Dewitt change his name to Zachary Hale Comstock?

I think there is a name change to insure the player has no real chance to figure out the plot twist until they are told. It's one of the minor problems I have with the game. An effective plot twist is something that you might figure out before it's revealed. A good mystery provides the reader with the clues which makes it all the more delightful if they don't get it at the end.

It's the same thing as Comstock's aging. Exposure to various radiations could make a person cancerous and sick, but it wouldn't age you into a premature senior citizen with a Santa beard. That was done not because it made a lot of sense but just to throw you off. Infinite's plot twists just come out of nowhere and the story suffers a bit for it.

 

[EGM1966]

so did Slade ever say anything to hint at Booker's identity? Presumably from how Booker talks he knew him at Wounded Knee, and surely he'd know who Comstock is now, yet he never mentions a connection explicitly

I could have picked it up wrong but I got the impression he only met Comstock after the effects of aging, etc. had set in from using the tear technology to view other Universe/timelines hence he failed to make the Comstock/Booker connection - instead he simply saw Comstock taking credit for specific details he knew belonged to Booker.

Ironically Slade was wrong and Comstock had been at Wounded Knee and wasn't taking claim for deeds that weren't his but claiming them under a different name.

TBH one aspect that slipped by me first time around I need to go back and play through again to consider is how Comstock/Booker got to the position he did - how did he get the power/money to fund Lutece for example? I know to an extent the back-story is simply a setup for the core elements and probably shouldn't be looked at too closely - in some ways I see the setup as a Maguffin as used by Hitchcock : simply an excuse to setup an interesting situation the unfolding of which is the real focus.

 

[Sola Scriptura]

Did anyone else feel as though some of the heavy hitters were underdeveloped? Take the fireman, for instance. The game didn't give us any background on him, how some men became firemen, why, etc. And honestly, the rationale behind the handyman seemed a bit weak as well.

 

[The Librarian]

Did anyone else feel as though some of the heavy hitters were underdeveloped? Take the fireman, for instance. The game didn't give us any background on him, how some men became firemen, why, etc. And honestly, the rationale behind the handyman seemed a bit weak as well.

Don't really care about the rationale, but firemen and crowmen were a lot of fun. I would've loved more vigor-specific enemies.

 

[Trigger]

Did anyone else feel as though some of the heavy hitters were underdeveloped? Take the fireman, for instance. The game didn't give us any background on him, how some men became firemen, why, etc. And honestly, the rationale behind the handyman seemed a bit weak as well.

I assumed the heavy hitters were just people who became very adept at using specific vigors. I agree that they feel under developed as, unlike Bioshock, there aren't many moments where you meet them outside of the context of violence.

 

[ElzarTheBam]

Don't really care about the rationale, but firemen and crowmen were a lot of fun. I would've loved more vigor-specific enemies.

I loved the crowmen the most out of the specialist types.

I'm sad that the Toy maker never made it in to the game. Could have been Infinite's Sander Cohen.

DLC!

I certainly hope so.

 

[The Librarian]

I loved the crowmen the most out of the specialist types.

I'm sad that the Toy maker never made it in to the game. Could have been Infinite's Sander Cohen.

DLC!

 

[dragonbane]

Ooooo tough one. Why must you make me chooooose?

Spoiler

They're about equal for different reasons.

Interesting. I recall you saying that TR would be your GOTY no matter what happens and maybe even your Game of the Generation. This is a very good thing, it tells me that surprises can still happen in this industry. Going to be a tough call for you to choose one at the end of the year for GAF's GOTY

And lets not forget that great games like TLOU and Beyond are still coming, which are probably both pretty emotional games.

 

[Neiteio]

Did anyone else feel as though some of the heavy hitters were underdeveloped? Take the fireman, for instance. The game didn't give us any background on him, how some men became firemen, why, etc. And honestly, the rationale behind the handyman seemed a bit weak as well.

I agree they didn't tell us much about the fireman, but maybe it's nothing more complicated than the fireman is one Founder/Vox who is actually willing to use the controversial new vigors in town, in this case Devil's Kiss, and he has a special suit to perhaps mitigate burning himself in the process. Early on in the game, an NPC remarks that she doesn't want to try vigors until they work out the kinks, so despite Fink MFG pushing it so hard in advertising and at every street corner vending machine, most residents haven't picked them up, police force included.

On a side note, the Firemen have the coolest voices!

As for the Handymen, I think they did a god job with their story. First there's the Handyman at the fair at the start who clearly feels like a freak, with a throng of gawking NPCs taking pictures, and another couple farther back, one of which remarks the Handyman seems so sad, only for her partner to say (and I paraphrase), "How can you be sad with strength like his?" And then later, you have the Vox taking pictures with the slain Handyman, and if you listen to the audio diary lying next to the Handyman, you'll hear his wife telling him that she knows he is still a man, even though he is now mostly machine, and that "I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you." Saddest audio dairy in the game.

Also, what's this Toy Maker you guys mentioned? I'd like to see this cut concept.

 

[Ein Bear]

I'm going for the Heartbreaker trophy at the minute, and bleh, the Handymen really aren't very fun to fight.

 

[Neiteio]

I can only second what Neiteio's said with regards to the Vox stuff.


Which is fair enough, it's a common criticism I've read here and elsewhere, and one that's understandable and pretty hard to dismiss. I just personally think that with the Bioshock games we are getting just a glimpse of these worlds; and I think there's an element of realism to the aspect of being dropped in to this dystopia with absolutely no idea about anything. You're not going to know everything, and I like that element of mystery - even if it's just a side characters background. Everything you look at helps to unravel what Columbia really is, and the Voxophones help flesh out the history of the city and it's residents in an interesting and rewarding way. I think Infinite succeeds on that front more than the first did. I can see the argument that that stuff should be wholly exposed in the in game narrative, but I disagree with it, focus has to be kept on Booker and Elizabeth. Also I actually think we may have got too much information with some of the Voxophones. I think we got just the right amount of Daisy and Fink, and I like how you arrive just in time to see Fink's fate and just in time to stop Daisy from killing a child (again, Daisy's angle was done right as it also serves as a slight parallel to Booker at Wounded Knee, and Daisy's belief that a revolution can allow no compromise, only upheaval, and "pulling it out at the root" is interesting foreshadowing to what comes later - Booker deciding to go and strangle baby Comstock in his crib.)

I guess my point is that I don't think the fact that we don't get told absolutely everything is due to laziness. I think we get everything we need to know about those characters with a glimpse. We first see Fink in the role of some sort of jovial mayor, swaying with the citizen's of Columbia to Leadbelly's "Goodnight, Irene" then he hands us a baseball to throw at a black person and a white man who is in love with a black person and jokingly hopes that we don't "take our coffee black these days". From that point on you know just about everything you need to know about Fink. Arriving at his factory and seeing the chain gangs, the hopeful workers,the propaganda posters and hearing his voice over the intercom expressing his abhorrent workers ethics ("be the bee") - I think that fleshes everything out quite nicely. Then we get told he needs a new head of security, he killed his last one, and he ends up getting shot in the face unmercifully by Daisy Fitzroy, who you armed. I think all that is done in an intelligent way, in that there's a sense that things are playing out regardless of your presence in the city, but at the same time you are also completely implicated in this as you armed the revolution and set all this in motion.

Apologies, lengthy response and I'm rambling, but I only finished this a few days ago and it's all I really want to talk about. Read every post in this thread last night, got a lot of impressions I want to post and points to agree and disagree with. I've never known of a game to spark such interesting discussion, even outside of the multiverse and ending theories. Great OP and some really great posts.

TL;DR We get a full characterization of Fink entirely through his moustache.

Excellent summary of Fink (the paragraphs, not the moustache bit, lol).

And I agree, the narrative strikes an appropriate balance between dropping you into this strange new world and peeling back just enough layers to tell you all you need to know about the side characters, so as to not distract from the focus of Elizabeth and Booker. Those who want to dig deeper and glean additional information from the audio dairies, the propaganda posters, the public service announcements, etc, can do so. But you still receive enough to establish these characters even if you just stick to the scripted moments, such as the Raffle Fair, or hearing Fink share his work ethics in the elevator ride as you catch glimpses of his workers getting ready for the day's work.

Also, a word of appreciation for how they handled Fink: He is so utterly charming, even as he is so completely evil.

 

[LiK]

I'm going for the Heartbreaker trophy at the minute, and bleh, the Handymen really aren't very fun to fight.

that was easy for me. used a Hand Cannon on Easy and just waited for him to cough and shot him in the chest. rinse and repeat. did it first try.

 

[Toa TAK]

I'm going for the Heartbreaker trophy at the minute, and bleh, the Handymen really aren't very fun to fight.

Use Undertow and shoot him in the heart while he's stunned. Did this with my Shotgun and got it in my first go.

 

[Estocolmo]

Did anyone else feel as though some of the heavy hitters were underdeveloped? Take the fireman, for instance. The game didn't give us any background on him, how some men became firemen, why, etc. And honestly, the rationale behind the handyman seemed a bit weak as well.

In Finks factory, there is a voxophone of a lady telling us how her Husband got cancer in the stomach by working in the Monument Island. Fink then made him to a handyman and she said something like "its better having handyman than no man at all".

 

[Teggy]

Something I completely forgot about - did anyone notice that there is a door in the toy shop that has one of the locks that can be opened with Shock Jockey? Except when you come back after you get Shock Jockey the shop is closed so you can't get to it.

 

[Salamando]

Something I completely forgot about - did anyone notice that there is a door in the toy shop that has one of the locks that can be opened with Shock Jockey? Except when you come back after you get Shock Jockey the shop is closed so you can't get to it.

It's just closed with a shutter gate. When you come back, Booker can hold it up and enter.

 

[The Xtortionist]

You should be able to lift open the gate.

 

[Teggy]

You should be able to lift open the gate.

Oh geez, lol.

 

[Neiteio]

You should be able to lift open the gate.

Yep, when you're coming back from the Hall of Heroes, you can also pull up the shuttered gates to the bookstore and ice cream parlor. Lots of cash inside, and it looks cool after hours. Here's a shot I took of the ice cream parlor after it's closed (and check out dat leaning Liz):

For reference, here's the same shop when it's open before the Hall of Heroes:

 

[DatDude]

I'm going for the Heartbreaker trophy at the minute, and bleh, the Handymen really aren't very fun to fight.

i'd say on 1999 mode they are.

Strong enough to give you a fair challenge, making you use all your tool belt.

 

[Messypandas]

Beautiful! Would you happen to have a higher definition version for a wallpaper? Would love to set this as my wallpaper! Thanks!

Hey thanks for the kind words, i resized them here:

1280x1024 http://th02.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2013/106/8/6/infinite_cities_wallpaper_by_tosgos-d61y3kf.png

1680x1030 http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/106/8/5/infinite_cities_wallpaper_2_by_tosgos-d61y3te.png

 

[Neiteio]

Hey thanks for the kind words, i resized them here:

1280x1024 http://th02.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2013/106/8/6/infinite_cities_wallpaper_by_tosgos-d61y3kf.png

1680x1030 http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/106/8/5/infinite_cities_wallpaper_2_by_tosgos-d61y3te.png

You know what would be a nice touch? Since you have symmetry in the twin cities, twin pods, etc, why not add a burning plane wreck on the left side, to echo Booker arriving by boat on the other side?

Just a suggestion. Excellent work, though.

 

[Dyno]

In Finks factory, there is a voxophone of a lady telling us how her Husband got cancer in the stomach by working in the Monument Island. Fink then made him to a handyman and she said something like "its better having handyman than no man at all".

"Better a Handyman than a dead one."

 

[Sola Scriptura]

I agree they didn't tell us much about the fireman, but maybe it's nothing more complicated than the fireman is one Founder/Vox who is actually willing to use the controversial new vigors in town, in this case Devil's Kiss, and he has a special suit to perhaps mitigate burning himself in the process. Early on in the game, an NPC remarks that she doesn't want to try vigors until they work out the kinks, so despite Fink MFG pushing it so hard in advertising and at every street corner vending machine, most residents haven't picked them up, police force included.

On a side note, the Firemen have the coolest voices!

As for the Handymen, I think they did a god job with their story. First there's the Handyman at the fair at the start who clearly feels like a freak, with a throng of gawking NPCs taking pictures, and another couple farther back, one of which remarks the Handyman seems so sad, only for her partner to say (and I paraphrase), "How can you be sad with strength like his?" And then later, you have the Vox taking pictures with the slain Handyman, and if you listen to the audio diary lying next to the Handyman, you'll hear his wife telling him that she knows he is still a man, even though he is now mostly machine, and that "I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you." Saddest audio dairy in the game.

Also, what's this Toy Maker you guys mentioned? I'd like to see this cut concept.

I agree that the handyman was better developed than the fireman, but a problem I see is that outside of the first handyman you encounter at the fair at the start of the game, all the rest are enemies you interact with (except for the handyman the Vox have killed in Shantytown after Liz opens the tear at the seized weapons). The only interaction you have with them is through combat. In addition, the handymen all have the same phrases when you fight them. Why is it that all of the handymen supposedly regret the decision to become one? Is it not reasonable to expect to encounter (or, at the very least, fight) one who is perhaps happy with his newfound strength, is loyal to the Founders, and wants to destroy the False Shepherd?