Hot Coldman
Banned
"Back off man, I'm buying shit! I'll be with you in a momen- ooh, full salt replenishment!"
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Bioshock Infinite |OT| No Gods, Kings, or Irrational Games
- Thread starter Cystm
- Start date
"Back off man, I'm buying shit! I'll be with you in a momen- ooh, full salt replenishment!"
Seems like you EXPECTED the story to be about Columba, similar how Bioshock 1 was about Rapture. That's your fault though, for having false expectations. The story from second 1 is about Booker and Elizabeth.
For example, the film Titanic. It's about Jack and Rose. Sure there are many things that occur on the ship: Racism and inequality of the poor are a theme that you see (the one's who drown first)...but it's just as ASPECT of the narrative. It talks about it, similar to how Infinite talks about Racism, and American Extremeism, but it never becomes it's main FOCAL point.
From second 1, "Booker are you afraid of God", set's the tone of what this narrative will focus upon. It's your fault for expecting otherwise.
Quadraphonic
Member
Actually, I might go back.
I noticed I can select chapters from the game menu. If I realize I missed a few voxophones, can I just load up that area, get it, and it counts?
I noticed I can select chapters from the game menu. If I realize I missed a few voxophones, can I just load up that area, get it, and it counts?
RoninChaos
Member
Got infinite as a birthday gift. How can I do the glitch?
I've gotten stuck at presumably that exact same point, managed to glitch my way out and grab the opposing skyrail though.
HueyFreeman
Banned
I bet you're trying to get to that in-between area - you're not supposed to be able to yet. As far as I can tell, despite many attempts on my second playthrough, you can't get there no matter how much you try to glitch the sky rails. The one ascending to HoH should be clear - you don't need to take the other one down yet, but you will later.
AgentOtaku
Member
I agree with A LOT of this
Basically the story and settin save what is otherwise the most shallow entry in the series
Guess I'm not finishing the game today. The story is heating up for, what feels like a climax, so I think it's better to stop now and properly finish it in another sitting.
I'm at the point where
. About how long is there to go?
Is the
.
Thanks
I'm at the point where
the prophet flies around in his airship, after you rescue Elisabeth from the torture
Is the
defend generators moment with the enormous spike in difficulty just ahead, by any chance?
Thanks
Byronic Hero
Member
Just started my play through yesterday. Elizabeth is my top candidate for most useful partner in a video game. Seriously, she's great.
I didn't play 2 because I didn't want to suffer franchise fatigue with such a good series of games. Up to the Shantytown at this point, really enjoying it. I think I like the main character talking more than being silent. If Booker had been a silent protagonist, I don't think Elizabeth would have been as interesting a character. Her personality comes from their banter.
Really anticipating this "twist" since Bioshock 1's really caught me off guard. After 999 and VLR I didn't think a story in a game would find a way to be genuinely surprising.
I didn't play 2 because I didn't want to suffer franchise fatigue with such a good series of games. Up to the Shantytown at this point, really enjoying it. I think I like the main character talking more than being silent. If Booker had been a silent protagonist, I don't think Elizabeth would have been as interesting a character. Her personality comes from their banter.
Really anticipating this "twist" since Bioshock 1's really caught me off guard. After 999 and VLR I didn't think a story in a game would find a way to be genuinely surprising.
dark_preacher
Member
You're near the end. I didn't find te battle you're referring to hard at all.
WeAreStarStuff
Member
I beat this game about a week ago and I keep thinking about it. I cant wait to replay it knowing what I know now so that I can catch all of the little things sprinkled throughout the game. Ive started playing Bioshock 1 since it came free with Infinite as Ive never played it before. Im an hour in and not sure if I want to keep playing the original Bioshock; it seems so oppressive when compared to Infinite, and I dont like that you cant have your plasmids and weapon out at the same time like you can in Infinite. Should I keep trying with Bishock 1, or just go right back into Infinite?
See I don't understand this at all.
The most shallow?
If anything Bioshock 1 was the most shallow if you consider the progression from System Shock 2, to Bioshock 1.
At least Infinite retained more rpg lite elements with the use of gears, and had a much improved combat system.
Care to explain where you saw it to be more shallow? Because that just boggles my mind how someone could even say such a thing? :/
Yeah, I had a similar problem with Bio1.
felt so cramped, dark, and depressing. Truly felt like a linear corridor shooter of the late 90's.
I read your comment before the one you quoted and the 1 looked like an I to me at first glance. Good thing I reread it instead of flipping my table and mumbling something about trolls.
Exactly that. It's one thing to play this game and be disappointed that some of these themes are not the central focus of the game. If you don't like the game because that's what YOU wanted it to be, that's completely fine.
But it's another thing, to say Levine tried to make those themes the central point and failed. It was never meant to be the central point. It was always meant to paint the background, give you a context, so you could understand better why and how the characters are like that.
DeadRockstar
Member
I won't say I agree with everything you've said, but this is dead on, to me. Most of my problems with infinite stem from it being hamstrung by adhering to a structure that just isn't working as well this time. Gameplay ends up secondary to extending a narrative between two worlds.
Instead of thinking "what would fit Columbia best?" we have Bioshock's structure transplanted and the operation isn't entirely successful. By the end of the game, you'll see why it was done from a story POV, but that won't stop you thinking that, as a game, it's worse off for it.
AgentOtaku
Member
AgentOtaku
Member
Basically Bioshock 1 felt like an extension ( and of course simplification) of System Shock 2. It brought something different to a new crowd who hadn't grown up on those types of experiences.
Infinite just doesn't come off as being interested in pursuing that. More concerned with being a core shooter than an adventure.
WTF?
You have got to be kidding right? Replace the splicers with normal rapture citizens and you would have the same ass problem. The double standards are incredible here.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
The randomized gear bugs me though. Dishonored did the same thing. The first pants/ bone charm you find might be incredibly useful and just what you were looking for, or you'll never find the one you want on that playthrough. I don't think luck should be so heavily involved in customization.
ElzarTheBam
Member
After playing through Infinite, I decided to give BS1 and 2 a run through.
In hindsight, I definitely think I under appreciated BS2 (I realise the excellence in Minerva's den), but the main game itself. The gunplay is pretty good.
And certainly the Mark Meitzer storyline is wonderfully somber. Whilst not bieng part of the main plot.
In hindsight, I definitely think I under appreciated BS2 (I realise the excellence in Minerva's den), but the main game itself. The gunplay is pretty good.
And certainly the Mark Meitzer storyline is wonderfully somber. Whilst not bieng part of the main plot.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
The game tells two stories. It abruptly throws one away in the middle and fleshes out another, using the same characters. It literally feels to me like Ken had something to say, and then got Shiny New Idea Syndrome and ditched it halfway and went with where he wanted to go for his twist.
The game is certainly clearly about these two characters, but that doesn't negate that the story preoccupies itself with banging the realities of that world over your head for the first half, and then abruptly throws it out the window because it's no longer convenient for where the story wants to go.
Ken went to great pains with the game to keep things neutral. Of course an author has every right to write whatever story he wants to, but that doesn't make it good storytelling.
The game gives you a world that you have to use your knowledge of history and social justice to inform you is bad. The one biggest opportunity to show how wicked the upperclass is in the context of the game is at the beginning, and even then, the game cops out by giving the player the actual choice to decide whether it is morally right or wrong to throw a baseball at two people tied up. The game doesn't even actually explain why they are in this position, it is up to you to get the picture. Still worse, the player's choice is then negated by a canned response where the game then thrusts the player into the violence of the gameplay, avoiding even further having to say anything about what was just presented.
Nothing else presented in the game has anything meaningful to say about the world whatsoever, only that it is built on the philosophy of one man, and that that man is a liar. It bombards you with propaganda posters, but they are used as nothing but window dressing. The result of such a neutral, aesthetic approach to that sort of propaganda is that it comes across unjudged, amusing, even admirable. This is clearly not the intent of the narrative, but because the game chooses not to take sides, there's nothing presented in the game that deprecates the philosophy. The philosophy of the powers that be then could have been about anything, but the choice was made to use American history as a vehicle to cruise control past large swaths of troublesome expositional effort. Ultimately, the powers that be and the oppressed underclass end up presented as morally equivalent by the narrative by eventually becoming nothing but identical cannon fodder.
There were reasonable expectations of what could have been accomplished with this setting, and instead it ends up unused. That's Ken's choice, and that's just fine, but it remains a missed opportunity and a less satisfying tale because of it. Levine told a story that I thought was interesting, but when you are talking about a Bioshock game where everyone understands that the setting is as much a character as the people in it, Columbia remains the least developed character in the game.
Jack Scofield
Member
Anyone else think it was funny how the wind was howling outside Monument statue because you're high up, but not in general?
DeadRockstar
Member
I agree with Fine Ham Abounds as well. The political story is essentially dropped like a rock at a certain point and the Vox are painted as just the other side of a megalomaniacal coin. It's a shame because initially it feels like that's going somewhere.
What.
Those "two stories" are one and the same as the faults of Columbia are the exact same faults of Comstock/Dewitt. The game doesn't use the elements of slavery and racism as central themes, but instead views them as symptoms of a larger problem, that of an entity denying, revising or even glorifying it's dark past dooms itself and those around it. It's a conflict you find in Columbia which ultimately leads to either it's downfall or the downfall of the rest of the world, and similarly the arc of Comstock/Dewitt. While it may seem like it abandon's telling the story of Columbia, it's in fact an overarching theme to the game that transfers from setting, to character.
Similarily, the Vox are the representation of the Booker you play. They justify killing all the people in Columbia because of the racism and oppression that they practice. The player does the same thing when they are playing the game, justifying killing the Columbians because the game has shown you how horrible and "deserving" they are. Did the Vox go overboard killing people during their rampage? Did you go overboard killing hundreds of people on your quest to save a girl? In the end are you any different than Fitzroy?
I don't see these 2 stories that you mention here. The first half of the game is just like half of a movie. It's setting up the characters, the context, letting you know why and how things are why they are. Maybe you say that it's banging that over your head, because a game is much longer than a movie, so half a game is still over 5 hours. But it was still very clear that the main focus was going to shift to Booker/Elizabeth as the game went on.
I know keep rambling about movies, but instead of Titanic, I'll use a good movie instead: Children of Men. The first half of the movie, it's painting the world, giving you a context, showing how harsh that reality is and how it affects the main character. Then it goes on to be a personal story, centered on the characters. First time I watched it, I liked it, but I kept thinking why didn't they explore more of that extremely interesting reality? It's an incredible premise and the movie never tries to explain why or how. But then after a few days, I realized that the movie was not about that and it was fucking good at what it was trying to do!
Regarding the baseball choice,
it tied perfectly well with the main plot. Most choices don't make a different. Infinite worlds slightly different, but mostly the same. With a few big choices that make a huge difference, in this case, the baptism.
Now your last point about this being a missed opportunity, I guess it depends on how happy you are with the game itself. I'm perfectly happy with how Levine set up the story, how he used the themes to build a context for the main plot. How he perfectly tied everything, to the point that playing a second time is actually more fun than the first time. But most of all, the fact that he was able to create a personal story that people can relate to.
I do agree that the Vox could be a bit more fleshed out though. That part fell a bit short.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
And this, as aforementioned, is the central disconnect between people who feel the way I do and the way you do about the narrative.
For me, I was bludgeoned with the world at the beginning, and the main characters at the back end. It's far too neutral yet far too hamfisted and over the top with how it presents the world at the start. The narrative setup bombards you with so much stuff but has so little to really say about it that it leaves you wondering through the entire second half where the hell that part of the story went, because it sure as hell wasn't satisfactorily wrapped up. Of course you can extrapolate after the fact that it was metaphorical, but it's not set up that way - it really relies on reminding you of what you already know about history and the world to inform you at all about the main characters. Now, I agree with your take in restrospect, but that actually had to be pointed out to me because I had essentially discounted the entire first half of the game because it felt so disposable to me by the end. It was sorta like someone setting up a fairy tale by writing cliff notes for a textbook.
I will reiterate that I was satisfied enough with what the story wanted to say, and I was impressed with how well he wrapped things together at the end. But it really isn't until the second half of the game that I had any clue where things were really headed, and it really felt like he had abruptly decided to tell a completely different kind of story.
Grinchy
Banned
lol good point
Um actually you could figure out the whole plot/twist by the Hall of Hero's stage.
This game has tons of foreshadowing, and alot of this foreshadowing is told in the beginning (The luteces row scene is a big hint as well).
Play it a second time, and you will see all the plot details just come together like magic (that you probably ignored before because they made no sense)
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
I did figure it out at that point, or at least start forming what eventually turned out to be the right idea. That was also the point where the game finally got engaging for me.
The transition for me came basically when you reach the first tear, and the story begins to go somewhere completely different thematically. It suddenly got a lot more interesting, but it also felt like I had just spent (admittedly enjoyable) hours wandering around not really getting anywhere.
I dunno, maybe I'm just saying a lot of things and not making much sense. Wouldn't surprise me at all. I'm gonna shut up for now.
This argument is right up there with telling someone: "you're playing it wrong." I call BS.
If you have to blame the player rather than the game, then you probably don't have a very good defense of the game.
Yup. It all would have been great if I had a short-term memory, but unfortunately I couldn't forget the first half of the game no matter how much the game encouraged me too. My immediate reaction was "wow." But the longer I had to think about the game (and especially its story) overall, the less it holds up.
It's a game that doesn't reward critical thought. But it can be tempting to think that it does because of all the flashy distractions with the plot. As I've pointed out elsewhere in this thread, piecing together the plot ultimately just amounts to decoding, not the sort of deep engagement that gives a narrative legs.
Jack Scofield
Member
Playing this game just made me appreciate Andrew Ryan all the more. Comstock isn't nearly as engaging or intimidating as Ryan was. In fact, he's absent for the vast majority of the game, and aside from knowing that he's a racist who's built a cult of personality around him, he's pretty uninteresting.
None of Comstock's voxophones come close to the brilliance of Ryan's. Those really were something else.
None of Comstock's voxophones come close to the brilliance of Ryan's. Those really were something else.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
You know, this is a good way of putting it, and might be why I was able to guess the twist so early, but had to have someone point out to me that the entirety of the story was a metaphor for Booker's internal struggle.
I think I'm going to play 1 again to compare when I get a break. Going to be playing 2 for the first time soon.
I hope you enjoy it. BioShock 2 was really great for me, and personally, loved it as much as the first. And do Minerva's Den.
Has anyone checked this out yet? The Bird or the Cage...
The Librarian
Banned
No it's not. It's very silly to criticize elements of a story that the story didn't set out to do, which you more often than not do.
The Librarian
Banned
Capitalism, communism, etc, are a means to an end. It's not saying anything about either ideology in particular.
Not it doesn't. The entire game is about Booker and Elizabeth. The first things you hear are
Elizabeth: "Booker, are you afraid of God?"
Booker: "No, but I'm afraid of you."
Then the next thing you're told is the following: "Bring us the girl and wipe away the debt!"
Booker and Elizabeth. That is it.
What do you mean "Why have them at all"? You can't have people
revolting
It's almost like
this is a point in the story
But Infinite doesn't say anything about those movements.
That isn't at all how the game portrays itself, and you know that..
But a story doesn't have to do both to be great, especially when one clearly puts characters in the forefront.
I know some people hate doing this but... there are plenty of checkpoints, early on, that lead to gear 10seconds later. Reload last checkpoint until you get the gear you want.
The Librarian
Banned
Any handy Infinite achievement guides for Sightseer and Eavesdropper?
Really? I have the opposite problem, on Hard mode and 1999 all I need are a few vigors and I'm set. I would like to tinker around with more of my vigors.
The only real challenge for me are the Handymen. Scary mofos to fight, considering how agile and powerful they are.
I don't know the combat still hasn't clicked with me. Still haven't figured out how this game wants me to play. Rarely have this problem with other FPS games
Baron_Calamity
Member
BS2 is my favorite story wise and probably the best combat of the series. Plus the ending was really satisfying.
As for BSI, loved the game as well but the story felt more at home with a X-men comic.
I think you meant to say, a story doesn't have to do both, to be great. Which is spot on. Yes, it's possible to do both. Does it have to do both to be a great story? Hell no! It's like you guys have a checklist of what a great narrative needs, to be considered great, deep or mature.
