God yes. This, so much.
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Bioshock Infinite |OT| No Gods, Kings, or Irrational Games
- Thread starter Cystm
- Start date
God yes. This, so much.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Man I couldn't disagree more about you guys putting Bioshock 1 above Infinite. I'm playing through it again right now and its so damn clunky.
After playing Infinite the combat seems so hemmed in and almost claustrophobic(especially that first big daddy fight). Plasmids boil down to - Throw this on the ground shoot at a guy, hide and let him run into it. I already miss the freedom of the fights afforded by the skyrails and without that and the superior AI of Infinite this is a shoot by numbers game.
Art Direction is stunning and atmosphere is perfect but I would rank Infinite just as high there for different reasons.
Only thing that brings a smile to my face in Bshock is Big Daddy. Such a fantastic iconic character.
AgentOtaku
Member
Yeah but you don't have access to Skyhooks for a fair amount of fights. So basically, it DOES turn into, lay a trap, shoot the dude, run away, and repeat. ESPECIALLY early on and in 1999 Mode
Buckethead
Banned
BLR, I agree about plasmids and weapons in Infinite.
They're definitely better (except the stock guns are useless) although I think they're a bit wasted for the reasons above.
Too bad the two game's strengths won't ever be married.
They're definitely better (except the stock guns are useless) although I think they're a bit wasted for the reasons above.
Too bad the two game's strengths won't ever be married.
I beat the game in 12 hours of the hard. Though I did miss a lot of voxophones. But that's because I didn't see doors or didn't have a chance to look at other rooms because I thought I was going off the trail already.
I disagree. Has the best combat and I think helps tie in Bioshock 1 with some of the concepts in Infinite.
Series spoilers:
played back to back to back, the Bioshock series is increasingly about the bond between father and daughter. It starts as a small inkling in 1 with the little sisters mechanic, but the plot in 2 more closely parallels Infinites and Infinite takes it a step further with how far Booker is willing to go to protect Anna in the end. People keep saying its irrelevant but I feel like they havent beaten the game yet. It serves as a good narrative link between the two. There is no reason that Subject Delta and Elanor Lamb arent Booker and Elizabeth in a different time which imo helps the impact of the sea of doors
Word.
But
Is better than anything in Infinite.
Is bioshock even bioshock without Cohen and Fort Frolic?
I mean that level is COMPLETELY unnecessary. Cohen blocks you from using the bathysphere to Hephaestus, and thus makes you do a bunch of fetch quests for him to finish his "masterpiece".
But it makes me wonder, if Levine had cut that level, to help the pacing, would bioshock 1 even be that memorable?
Sure the beginning levels are quite special in there own right. Encountering Rapture for the first time as you descended the oceans murky depth sure had a great sense of mystery and intrigue that so very few games could emulate. The first big daddy encounter in The Medical Pavilion, and witnessing the events at Smugglers Bay with Atlas and his family, were quite sad to witness. Sure, Arcadia gave a welcome break in terms of scenery, and the twist sure left a lot of "woah's, and damn's"
*Just to note: I disregard everything after the twist, because all of it (even Levine has said as much) was rushed, and just didn't match in terms of pacing/level design/atmosphere that the 1st half had. Hell, when I do occasional replay sessions, I just stop the game at the twist reveal and pretend that's the conclusion (because I really could not give enough fucks about everything else that followed).
But what happens if you take Cohen and just the entire level of Fort Frolic out? Was Dr. Steinman that well of a developed character? You could see in his audio diaries that he was an insane man looking for perfection in the use of ADAM, but personally, he came off as a generic insane character trope that I really didn't care much for.
Than how about Old Mr Peachy? The paranoid guy whose practically convinced you work for Fountaine, and sends you off to do a bunch of fetch quests, only then to fight you (in a mini boss fight of sorts). Not much of a special character either to be honest. Probably the weakest all things considering.
How about Arcadia? Dr. Langford? She gets killed by Ryan practically the minute we arrive, and we learn some tidbits about her in the audio diaries. But again, as a character, like most of the characters in Bioshock we learned from a distance, and once again, little connection was felt.
Now, Fort Frolic, and Mr. Sander, "FUCKING", Cohen. This was the only character that we were able to learn about in the present, and in the past. We saw his insanity in full display as he strapped his fellow student (fitzgerald I believe?) to the piano, strapped with dynamite and explosives, forcing him to play to cohens constant quest of perfection. My favorite audio diaries came from there as well, "The Wild Bunny, By Sander Cohen". Cohen was just an incredible character. His madness just began to unravel, and you could see his trail being left behind (the dead family killed by Cohen at the dinning table for instance) in almost every inch of Fort Frolic.
Personally, without Fort Frolic, and Sander Cohen, Bioshock is not even CLOSE to being the game it turned out to be.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
What is the most reliable way to take out a Handyman?
Need answers to this before tackling more difficult settings once I finish this 1st playthrough.
Need answers to this before tackling more difficult settings once I finish this 1st playthrough.
Undertow pull + shoot heart
CambriaRising
Member
Undertow leash is very useful for them later on.
Buckethead
Banned
Yes but far less so.
Cohen's presence (and those other characters) made Rapture feel like a living world full of interesting personalities with their own competing thoughts and agendas instead an underdeveloped guided tour through Colombia. The Fort Frolic level added an experiential layer on top of everything else that was just delicious. It was the icing on the cake, the cherry on top of the sundae. It brought it all together.
The splicers and the bosses while not incredibly deep are always threatening.
That's a sign of a good villain and why Comstock ultimately fails as one in Infinite.
He's always behind the glass wall but the player never interacts with him.
(Endgame spoilers):
Even when you kill him (and boy, was that some shitty animation)
I like Infinite a lot but it's perhaps the most overhyped game since GTA IV.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Woah, really? I am under the impression that Undertow only works for light enemies :O
My current tactic is just to Charge them like a crazy mofo and shotgun them to death, rinse and repeat, or stun them with Crows + Shotguns repeatedly.
Undertow, huh.....? Huhhh.
Speaking of Vigors, I am *severely* disappointed with Possession
The only enemies worth possessing seem always so quick in dismissing it But is Comstock even really meant to be the same type of villian that Andrew Ryan was meant to be? Hell is he even a villain in the traditional sense? I mean
Booker is just as much of a villain as Comstock is (trading off his daughter to pay off his debt
Also, doesn't that notion of being a observer apply for Andrew Ryan as well? Hell aren't we reduced to the same
role as an observer when Andrew Ryan asks the player to kill him with the golf club? Which is just a cut-scene, and isn't done by the player themseleves
Possession is more useful to me as a free kill than the actual possessing part. Helps with crowd control if you know you can get one or two enemies picked off for free (and they'll draw fire away from you before they do so)Speaking of Vigors, I am *severely* disappointed with Possession
Its the one vigor i consistently stuck with because its really handy in a pinch
You can glitch out the third one in the game (at
Finkton
1. Attach yourself to the hook up above just in front of where he drops down
2. Look to your left and jump on to the roof
3. Wait for him to jump up to you and then jump back down to the ground
He'll end up staying on the roof and not budging, giving you a free kill basically.
Sometimes he will jump down but if he does, repeat the process until he sticks. I can do this first time or I need to do it a second time or whatever, but it always works at some point.
Yeah Undertow stuns the Handymen and leaves their hearts open for shooting. Use it next to a tesla coil tear for max effectiveness.
Speaking of Vigors, I am *severely* disappointed with Possession
Possession is my favorite vigor in the game. The key to making Possession awesome is to get the For Less upgrade. After that, and when your salt count is decent, it just becomes delicious. Even though the effect is short-lasting on the major enemies, you can end up just casting it repeatedly. Had some fun times doing that with the Patriots later in the game.
They'd wipe a bunch out or inevitably get wiped out themselves.And you can knock out enemies quickly with Possession trap. Also try possessing someone then shocking or burning them. :>
Buckethead
Banned
Bioshock spoilers:
Ryan isn't the villain, Fontaine is. You do get to kill him at the end of the game.
It's cathartic to the player to be able to get that revenge or whatever.
Although yes, you don't get to kill Ryan. However that was visceral and powerful.
Infinite's probably was supposed to be but it just felt awkward and I felt disconnected.
It also works in the thematic sense. "A man chooses, a slave obeys".
The player didn't really have a choice there. It reinforces the thematic material.
It's cathartic to the player to be able to get that revenge or whatever.
Although yes, you don't get to kill Ryan. However that was visceral and powerful.
Infinite's probably was supposed to be but it just felt awkward and I felt disconnected.
It also works in the thematic sense. "A man chooses, a slave obeys".
The player didn't really have a choice there. It reinforces the thematic material.
Infinite spoilers:
But killing Comstock doesn't really line up with anything thematically presented in Infinite. There's a throw-away line by Elizabeth about Booker not having a choice despite his desire to choose (or something) but the game isn't about free will in any coherent sense.
I guess you could say Booker had to kill Comstock because he had to kill himself in the waters of baptism. Okay, fine. It makes for good storytelling when properly executed (don't think it was) but for shitty gaming.
Infinite is convoluted whereas Bioshock is far more clear and concise.
I don't know if Comstock was supposed to be a tradition villain but tension is incredibly important to any story. In Infinite there really isn't any.
That's why killing Comstock was so shit. It just kind of happens willy nilly. Walk in, press "X", watch it happen in a badly done way.
Elizabeth barely cares about either Booker or Comstock. Snoooooooze.
I guess you could say Booker had to kill Comstock because he had to kill himself in the waters of baptism. Okay, fine. It makes for good storytelling when properly executed (don't think it was) but for shitty gaming.
Infinite is convoluted whereas Bioshock is far more clear and concise.
I don't know if Comstock was supposed to be a tradition villain but tension is incredibly important to any story. In Infinite there really isn't any.
That's why killing Comstock was so shit. It just kind of happens willy nilly. Walk in, press "X", watch it happen in a badly done way.
Elizabeth barely cares about either Booker or Comstock. Snoooooooze.
DeadRockstar
Member
You've actually highlighted why I think plasmids are so much more effective in Rapture. Because it's claustrophobic it limits their utility. In Infinite you can throw them miles and basically be safe most of the time. In rapture there can be enemies right up on you more quickly and the environment is in your way more.
I get the sense you really didn't care for Infinite themes? Because I found it hardly convoluted, and what occured with
Comstock
choice, and it's irrelevance.
Buckethead
Banned
I like some, don't like others.
Both games present ideas quite liberally although capitalism, objectivism, survival, and everything in Bioshock is far more coherent than
judeo-christian redemption, felial piety, racism/xenophobia, perception, and quantum mechanics
Infinite is like 3 games in one.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Yeah Undertow stuns the Handymen and leaves their hearts open for shooting. Use it next to a tesla coil tear for max effectiveness.
Possession is my favorite vigor in the game. The key to making Possession awesome is to get the For Less upgrade. After that, and when your salt count is decent, it just becomes delicious. Even though the effect is short-lasting on the major enemies, you can end up just casting it repeatedly. Had some fun times doing that with the Patriots later in the game.
And you can knock out enemies quickly with Possession trap. Also try possessing someone then shocking or burning them. :>
Hmmmmm, maybe I am just not using Possession the right way.
Man, Undertow is that good? Too bad I haven't touched it and I don't think I have enough money right now to upgrade it.
I am currently at Full Shotgun, Full Sniper, Full Charge, Full Crows, Full Possession, and Full Devil's Kiss.
I was just thinking about this battle!
Anyways, in harder difficulty levels, what do you folks think more important to upgrade first? Vigor or Weapons? And throw Vigor/Weapons recommendation too while I am at it
Undertow is probably too good. The secondary attack grabs Handymen by the nuts, and the primary attack is basically auto-kill on whatever is near a ledge.
The pull attack is also wonderful for grabbing asshole snipers when you've upgraded the distance, and just punishing them close-up.
Undertow makes the
gunship assault right before entering the Hand of the Prophet
Which is good because at least on 1999 mode the enemies are bullet spongey as hell at that part.
I know this is a late response but don't listen to:
I feel like I am one of the few who thinks Bioshock 2 is the best in the series and I strongly recommend playing Bioshock 2 at some point (and I haven't even played Minerva's Den!). I agree with a few people that you should skip Bioshock 2 for now, though. Going into 2 immediately after 1 can be a bit... grueling? The setting is the same and many have mentioned that a big complaint towards the game. It feels like it's just retreading the same ground. I agree that it is very much like that but it is a very complimentary experience to the story of Rapture. Most importantly, I think the story it presents is much stronger than both Bioshock 1 and Infinite and thus why I strongly recommend playing it. Don't do it immediately after 1, go to infinite since those are fairly distinct experiences but definitely come back to Bioshock 2 after some time.
Personally speaking, 2 dealt with the gameplay complaints I had with 1 so well that I wound up barreling through it in two long sittings. The combat was so good it left me wanting more so maybe thats why the abundance of shootouts in Infinite didnt bother me so much. Some of the areas are far less distinct than 1 but the first section underwater, Ryan Amusements and the Little Sister level cant be missed imo. Plus Sinclairs accent is worth the price of admission
If the combat clicks with you I really dont think 2 will burn one out as people say. Granted a lot of people seem over the concept of shooting in general on gaf so idk
If the combat clicks with you I really dont think 2 will burn one out as people say. Granted a lot of people seem over the concept of shooting in general on gaf so idk
I feel I am too enamored by its story and Sophia Lamb (one of the best video game villains around) to remember how solid the combat is, but I totally agree with you. I was playing Bioshock 1 not too long before Infinite came out and I constantly kept telling myself how frustrated I was with the shooting mechanics. It just felt "off". Sluggish, almost. It was hard to put my finger on it. Infinite felt very solid because of it, but I still had issues story wise and the combat just felt a bit too unrealized to me so I had a burning desire to pop in Bioshock 2.
Needless to say it is probably the combat that "clicks" with me the most. The combat starts happening very often because of the Little Sister defending but at the same time I find it very fun. The physical act of shooting doesn't feel 'off' to me like Bioshock 1 did and I enjoy combat scenarios (the drill helps a lot with this) and the 'two handed' combat like Infinite just makes it so much smoother as well.
Needless to say it is probably the combat that "clicks" with me the most. The combat starts happening very often because of the Little Sister defending but at the same time I find it very fun. The physical act of shooting doesn't feel 'off' to me like Bioshock 1 did and I enjoy combat scenarios (the drill helps a lot with this) and the 'two handed' combat like Infinite just makes it so much smoother as well.
Yeah Undertow stuns the Handymen and leaves their hearts open for shooting. Use it next to a tesla coil tear for max effectiveness.
Possession is my favorite vigor in the game. The key to making Possession awesome is to get the For Less upgrade. After that, and when your salt count is decent, it just becomes delicious. Even though the effect is short-lasting on the major enemies, you can end up just casting it repeatedly. Had some fun times doing that with the Patriots later in the game.
And you can knock out enemies quickly with Possession trap. Also try possessing someone then shocking or burning them. :>
Can you explain to me how Tesla Coils even work ?
When an enemy gets near them, they get shocked and stunned periodically.
i am playing on hard. i am progressing but dying a lot and losing all my money.
HueyFreeman
Banned
Speaking of Vigors, I am *severely* disappointed with Possession
I use possession all the time on 1999. It auto takes down one guy, creates a distraction in a heated battle, and it's a one hit kill for super annoying rocket heavies. Absolutely essential, especially the upgraded version that uses less salt.
Huh. I always spammed crows. Never had problems with that method on 1999
Always make note a where a checkpoint is. If you're close to it, just reload and save your money. On hard and 1999, the resuscitations can use too much money, and really end up neutering you later on.
The Librarian
Banned
Have you played BioShock recently? Aside from the loss of different types of bullets and visible weapon upgrades, BioShock's gameplay is far more limited than Infinite's when it comes to creativity in its encounters. BioShock's combat, in a lot of places, happened in very narrow and cramped rooms and hallways.
Better level design? In terms of what? Non-linearity? That's different, not better, and when saying that you have to examine why the two are different. You can say you like one better than the other, though.
Big Daddies were push overs with Vita-Chambers. Handymen are better. Ryan was better than Comstock for sure. Music? Eh. BioShock didn't have a lot of music and neither does Infinite. "Will the Circle Be Unbroken" is the best thing out of both soundtracks. And BioShock wasn't scary...more creepy.
Infinite's combat is much improved. While BioShock offered you more options, you were limited to how you could approach the combat due the game's corridors and small rooms. Thanks to Infinite's more arena-like approach, in addition to being able to dual-wield vigors and weapons, tears, skyhooks, and sky-lines, your mobility and maneuverability is much improved. There are a lot of ways you can tackle many of the encounters. I've went back to Minvera's Den recently and it feels so...cramped compared to Infinite. I miss the freedom provided by sky-lines and skyhooks.
The gunplay in Infinite is better than BioShock 2 and BioShock 1.
Here's where you're getting held up, and I keep on saying this to you: Infinite does not try to do both. Its focus is solely on the characters.
Was never a problem for me.
Huh? It's at least half of fights that you have access to either skyhooks or sky-lines. And if not, you have tears.Yeah but you don't have access to Skyhooks for a fair amount of fights. So basically, it DOES turn into, lay a trap, shoot the dude, run away, and repeat. ESPECIALLY early on and in 1999 Mode
possess immediately followed by shock, hilarious and overpowered, best combo in the game for crowd control.
DeadRockstar
Member
The increased mobility in Infinite feels at odds with the concept of plasmids. It encourages the sit back and snipe style of play. They tried to get around this by giving the plasmids range, which just makes the encounters less exciting and conforms to the expectations of a shooter more. That might be why the game feels easy, because it's more familiar.
The skylines concept felt like it was scaled back from the original concept as well. They're not as pervasive or important as I thought they'd be.
The skylines concept felt like it was scaled back from the original concept as well. They're not as pervasive or important as I thought they'd be.
Happened a bunch of times for me. I remember one time in particular I tried to listen to an voxophone like 3 times and I couldn't find a spot without a freaking radio talking over it.
In a way it makes sense that the voxophones were lower billing than radios, since you can't replay the radios like you can voxophones. Still, it seemed inelegant because some of those radios were mostly just atmosphere, and having them push aside the interesting shit the voxophones were saying was just annoying.
AgentOtaku
Member
lol, you know what, you're right. I just opted to barely ever use them as for fear of some sort of consequences as hinted in the initial gameplay walkthrough from e3... which didn't make it into the final game.
Will defnitely utilize them in 1999 mode then.
Before I get into this I have to say this: why the fuck do people keep saying mobility is improved in infinite? Jack's movement speed in Bio1 is faster than booker's /running speed/ in infinite. Subject Delta with the speed upgrade moves much, much faster than booker, too. Where in the hell is this revisionist history bullshit coming from?
1. The combat isn't improved, it's much, much worse. And I've gone into detail on why at length before in this very thread.
2. The "area" style design is part of the reason the combat is so bad in this game. When 90% of the enemies in the game are using hitscan based weaponry (there's a pretty important reason basically every enemy in classic, arena style FPS games used ballistic projectiles you could avoid via strafing), the game has no damage area indication at all, and the game's health system is as haphazardly implemented as it is you are constantly taking damage from all angles and a lot of the times have no real idea where in the hell it is coming from. When all thrown together this creates an incredibly unbalanced and not even really functional system that kinda stumbles from fight to fight as you play through the game. Which leads me to...
3. The health system and salt replenishment system. Good god I don't think they could have made a worse system if they tried here. They remove on command health/salt packs in favor for health-packs, which I'll get to in a min, and dice-rolls to justify Elizabeth (again: please game designers don't make the game play worse so you can justify a character's place in the narrative, especially when it's a game that already has as much disconnect between gameplay and narrative as BSI does) fill these huge open arenas filled with large numbers of hitscan based enemies--guaranteeing damage is constantly being done to you, and there's nothing you can do about it--with really no on-screen indication of where damage is coming from. This leaves the game in a state of praying to King Die in the Heavens that Elizabeth will feel like tossing you the shit you need, or running around during combat to try and find the health packs. The health packs are very poorly handled as well, forcing you to not only run over to them and hit a use key to use them, but also muck around in the environment trying to find them while mr. hitscan machine gun pumps you full of rounds that will hit you. This needlessly creates a break in the action that could easily be avoided. This wasn't a problem in Bio1 or 2 for a few reasons, mainly because medpacks were on-command, thus before even engaging with an enemy you had a fall back to keep you in the action. Bio1 and 2 also had health restoration machines located in their environments that you could easily see and locate (they flashed and had a big health icon on them). One of many solutions to Infinite's health pack issues would be to simply make them usable by running into them, ala DOOM. Another way would be to make them more easily disconcernable in the environment. Bio1/2 did this via the formerly mentioned very easily recognizable medstations, or, they could have elizabeth "find" them for you in the area once your health drops past a certain point, and have an indication icon pop up on the screen showing you which direction to go to find it. Regardless, the health system as is really sucks, and isn't really conducive to how the game expects you to play it.
4. The tears. How can anyone praise these? They're largely nothing more than old Bio2 plasmids you once could use on-command ripped out of your hands so Elizabeth can be justified from a gameplay perspective. Sure, narratively it's nice, but as far as play goes I find it incredibly aggravating they ripped some of the best and most interesting plasmids out of your hands and made them essentially QTE spawns when the game feels like it. Decoy would have made for an excellent Vigor in this game, allowing for something you could trigger on-command to lure the hitscan away from you while you flank or run to cover to restore shields or whatever. Instead it's now a situational use tear that gets used maybe twice in the entire game. Truly this game rocks Bio2's world in the combat department....lol
5. You complain about the smaller, "cramped" level design. Without going on and on, it's simply more conducive to the gameplay system Infinite and Bio2 share. In bio2 with the small arenas you have all choke points and entry-ways for the entire fight you can see at all times. This leads to much more effective trap setting as you know exactly where your enemies are at all times and know exactly where you can choke them into traps in order to flank them. In Infinite, the massive arenas lead to you constantly being chipped away by enemies you have no idea where they are or where they are coming from, leading you to both being constantly being sheild broken and not able to engage enemies, and removing the key aspect to trap setting in anticipating your enemies movement and placing traps to prevent them from directly engaging you.
Whew. That was probably more than you wanted (and probably a little jumbled...), but eh this game has more than enough problems that talking about them at great length isn't really hard...
1. The combat isn't improved, it's much, much worse. And I've gone into detail on why at length before in this very thread.
2. The "area" style design is part of the reason the combat is so bad in this game. When 90% of the enemies in the game are using hitscan based weaponry (there's a pretty important reason basically every enemy in classic, arena style FPS games used ballistic projectiles you could avoid via strafing), the game has no damage area indication at all, and the game's health system is as haphazardly implemented as it is you are constantly taking damage from all angles and a lot of the times have no real idea where in the hell it is coming from. When all thrown together this creates an incredibly unbalanced and not even really functional system that kinda stumbles from fight to fight as you play through the game. Which leads me to...
3. The health system and salt replenishment system. Good god I don't think they could have made a worse system if they tried here. They remove on command health/salt packs in favor for health-packs, which I'll get to in a min, and dice-rolls to justify Elizabeth (again: please game designers don't make the game play worse so you can justify a character's place in the narrative, especially when it's a game that already has as much disconnect between gameplay and narrative as BSI does) fill these huge open arenas filled with large numbers of hitscan based enemies--guaranteeing damage is constantly being done to you, and there's nothing you can do about it--with really no on-screen indication of where damage is coming from. This leaves the game in a state of praying to King Die in the Heavens that Elizabeth will feel like tossing you the shit you need, or running around during combat to try and find the health packs. The health packs are very poorly handled as well, forcing you to not only run over to them and hit a use key to use them, but also muck around in the environment trying to find them while mr. hitscan machine gun pumps you full of rounds that will hit you. This needlessly creates a break in the action that could easily be avoided. This wasn't a problem in Bio1 or 2 for a few reasons, mainly because medpacks were on-command, thus before even engaging with an enemy you had a fall back to keep you in the action. Bio1 and 2 also had health restoration machines located in their environments that you could easily see and locate (they flashed and had a big health icon on them). One of many solutions to Infinite's health pack issues would be to simply make them usable by running into them, ala DOOM. Another way would be to make them more easily disconcernable in the environment. Bio1/2 did this via the formerly mentioned very easily recognizable medstations, or, they could have elizabeth "find" them for you in the area once your health drops past a certain point, and have an indication icon pop up on the screen showing you which direction to go to find it. Regardless, the health system as is really sucks, and isn't really conducive to how the game expects you to play it.
4. The tears. How can anyone praise these? They're largely nothing more than old Bio2 plasmids you once could use on-command ripped out of your hands so Elizabeth can be justified from a gameplay perspective. Sure, narratively it's nice, but as far as play goes I find it incredibly aggravating they ripped some of the best and most interesting plasmids out of your hands and made them essentially QTE spawns when the game feels like it. Decoy would have made for an excellent Vigor in this game, allowing for something you could trigger on-command to lure the hitscan away from you while you flank or run to cover to restore shields or whatever. Instead it's now a situational use tear that gets used maybe twice in the entire game. Truly this game rocks Bio2's world in the combat department....lol
5. You complain about the smaller, "cramped" level design. Without going on and on, it's simply more conducive to the gameplay system Infinite and Bio2 share. In bio2 with the small arenas you have all choke points and entry-ways for the entire fight you can see at all times. This leads to much more effective trap setting as you know exactly where your enemies are at all times and know exactly where you can choke them into traps in order to flank them. In Infinite, the massive arenas lead to you constantly being chipped away by enemies you have no idea where they are or where they are coming from, leading you to both being constantly being sheild broken and not able to engage enemies, and removing the key aspect to trap setting in anticipating your enemies movement and placing traps to prevent them from directly engaging you.
Whew. That was probably more than you wanted (and probably a little jumbled...), but eh this game has more than enough problems that talking about them at great length isn't really hard...
DeadRockstar
Member
Great post pa22word. Covers all my problems with the game's combat.
The changes made in Infinite encourage a less exciting, engaging and tense style of play than the original did.
I think I'll give Bioshock 2 a shot as well, in light of the positive comments about it in this thread.
The changes made in Infinite encourage a less exciting, engaging and tense style of play than the original did.
I think I'll give Bioshock 2 a shot as well, in light of the positive comments about it in this thread.
As much as I really loved Inifinite a ton, I think pa22word's post really explains why I still seem to remember really loving the gameplay from Bio2 much much more than I did Infinite.
I think it had the best gameplay of the series.
I'm also one of the few that really loved Bio2's multiplayer.
I think it had the best gameplay of the series.
I'm also one of the few that really loved Bio2's multiplayer.
The Librarian
Banned
It's not "revisionist history bullshit." Sky-lines and sky-hooks make moving around faster than either BioShock 1 or 2. There's also sprint.
Combat is very much improved. The gunplay is so much better than anything in BioShock 1 or 2, and as I keep saying, Infinite is more like Halo than Call of Duty. You basically re-typed everything here you said in there, so I'll take it one by one.
One thing I can say about Infinite is that it avoided that bad design of becoming too powerful by the end of the game, as in BioShock 1 and 2. I was on my toes throughout the entire game.
The arena combat is part of what makes the combat in this game so great. There are so many ways of tackling the combat spaces that I usually find new ways only after I'm done with the area. I see your point on hitscan weapons, and normally I'd agree, but the enemies are pretty balanced out by not being insanely accurate (except for maybe the snipers), and you can easily avoid their weapons fire by utilizing tears, sky-hooks, and sky-lines. Besides, given how fast you can move in this game with skyhooks and skyrails, I'm not sure the enemies would able to hit you ever with ballistic projectiles.
If you're taking damage from all angles, you're putting yourself out in the open when you haven't eliminated enough of the enemy. Besides, for all your railing against hit-scan weaponry, BioShock 1 and 2 had it (or close enough). And due to the cramped hallways and how slow you moved in those two games, it was extremely hard to avoid bullet fire from Splicers. It's essentially the same problem with different causes. There was no strafing in BioShock 1 or 2. It was impossible; the corridors were so cramped.
I can see where you're coming from and definitely agree on your ways to implement the system they have now, but to most of your points...
This is why shields were introduced. They essentially replace your on-command health system that you like so much. Aside from a few points in the game (most noticeably the last battle), I never had a problem locating health packs and vigor bottles.
Elizabeth was never a hindrance during combat; she only helped. Saved my ass a few times too.
I'll give you the decoy point, but what other plasmids from BioShock 2 were ripped out of players hands to make an excuse for tears? I wish we had tears in BioShock 1 and 2. Would've
Clearly! As I've explained. It's different, mostly, but I think it's better. Most of BioShock 1 and 2's encounters are very simple and, due to the cramped corridors and levels, are never given the breathing room to evolve beyond their initial setup.
Infinite, for me, feels like it drops most of the clutter from the previous two games while making everything more expansive in the combat space. The gear in this game, for me, were far more visible in their effects than the gene tonics in BioShock 1 or 2.
There's also more distinguishable enemy variety in Infinite. BioShock 1 and 2 just had splicers...and different kind of splicers...and other splicers. Infinite has MPs, HMs, Firemen, Crowmen, and soldiers.
I think you bring up some good points in regards to player awareness of enemies, but that was never a problem for me outside of one or two instances (mostly involving snipers). The game helps you out with bigger players by tagging them on your HUD. I'm a Halo player, so I'm used to picking out enemies in large encounter spaces.
Setting up traps in BioShock 2 was cool and all, but you could only effectively do that when the game allows it. Because of the cramped corridors and small rooms, it was really hard to utilize the area without running into enemies before you were ready. Thanks to Infinite's large arenas and greater mobility, you can land on one side, plant a trap, then zip away and plant a trap at another place.
This is really bang-on for me. I like the arena style design but the lack of damage area indication kills it for me. It also doesn't help that the levels have very little readability. Even if I know where the enemy fire is coming from, I sometimes still can't see WHERE the enemy is because they blend into the environment. There is a reason why the designers placed huge icons over Handymen and the GW automaton things. I bet in playtesting they knew you couldn't see the damn things so used that as a solution.
As long as we're complaining about things, what the hell happened with the lockpick system? It started out nice, where I felt I was scrounging around for them. I felt like I needed to find them or else I'd miss out. That's cool. It had a purpose. Then after a couple hours I just gathered tons of lockpicks, and the locked doors and stuff started to disappear compared to in the beginning. I ended up with something like 30+ picks. Fucking why? I understand throwing more out than needed in case you miss some, but thirty?
I know part of my disorientation as to where the hell the enemies were coming from was due to the fact that the game has no maps. Throughout most of infinite I felt very very disoriented. The game trained me to explore and then gave me no sense of where the fuck I was. It had you looking in every nook and cranny for tiny objects, so you get very turned around and focused on the smaller picture. It's very easy to forget the larger picture and path you're on. One of the last areas in the game there were some maps up on the wall, and even that helped me a ton.
The skylines especially felt shitty because, again, I didn't know where the fuck I was going on them. If there was a map I could look at and strategize, that'd be great. A lot of the time, though, I was kind of afraid to even use them because I didn't know where they'd take me. And that's not even mentioning the speed difference between skylines and not skylines made them disorienting as hell.
I know part of my disorientation as to where the hell the enemies were coming from was due to the fact that the game has no maps. Throughout most of infinite I felt very very disoriented. The game trained me to explore and then gave me no sense of where the fuck I was. It had you looking in every nook and cranny for tiny objects, so you get very turned around and focused on the smaller picture. It's very easy to forget the larger picture and path you're on. One of the last areas in the game there were some maps up on the wall, and even that helped me a ton.
The skylines especially felt shitty because, again, I didn't know where the fuck I was going on them. If there was a map I could look at and strategize, that'd be great. A lot of the time, though, I was kind of afraid to even use them because I didn't know where they'd take me. And that's not even mentioning the speed difference between skylines and not skylines made them disorienting as hell.
DeadRockstar
Member
I don't think skylines add much to the combat as it is now. You're either moving too fast to aim all that well, or you brake to aim and become an easy target. Considering you can't use plasmids while riding either, you might as well be on the ground. Plus, like I said before, it encourages a more conventional, distant style of play.
As for the shields, that's not a solution to a problem. Being constantly shield broken just adds to the annoyance and disorientation.
As for the shields, that's not a solution to a problem. Being constantly shield broken just adds to the annoyance and disorientation.
clutch.as.it.gets.
Member
I fully agree.
Atmosphere was better, the focus on exploration/adventure was much more appealing to me and most importantly the level design. Bioshock had much better and deeper maps that were fun to explore.
Yeah, this is bullshit. It seems like jumping off skylines/skyhooks with gear equipped that damages enemies when doing so is the primary way to use them to one's advantage.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
You haven't played Bioshock 1 in a while huh?
Your post is filled with nostalgia.
Well I think you like Bshocks combat so much because at the cost of versatility you were forced into these cramped uncomfortable situations that aided the games atmosphere quite a bit. Its only after revisiting Bioshock now that I find it so damn clunky at the time I loved it.
NaughtyCalibur
Member
Finished it this morning.
Storyline and art direction has GOTY written all over it. Unfortunately the gameplay does not. It's especially a shame because the moment when combat first kicks in got my adrenaline flowing. How it seamlessly transitioned from scripted scene to "HOLY SHIT I TOTALLY WRECKED THAT DUDE'S FACE" was the perfect way to introduce the combat.
Had there been less major arena battles in favor of smaller brawls spread out throughout the game's narrative not only would the excitement of combat last throughout, but the wonderful story would have likely been paced a lot better. This could have possibly saved us from the finale being just 20 minutes of exposition.
As is I became numb by the frequent combat as its effectiveness in complimenting the game's finer aspects vanished.
Still a great game though. A solid 4/5 based on art direction an writing alone.
Storyline and art direction has GOTY written all over it. Unfortunately the gameplay does not. It's especially a shame because the moment when combat first kicks in got my adrenaline flowing. How it seamlessly transitioned from scripted scene to "HOLY SHIT I TOTALLY WRECKED THAT DUDE'S FACE" was the perfect way to introduce the combat.
Had there been less major arena battles in favor of smaller brawls spread out throughout the game's narrative not only would the excitement of combat last throughout, but the wonderful story would have likely been paced a lot better. This could have possibly saved us from the finale being just 20 minutes of exposition.
As is I became numb by the frequent combat as its effectiveness in complimenting the game's finer aspects vanished.
Still a great game though. A solid 4/5 based on art direction an writing alone.
I believe there are people that think that way, but I don't understand why. Yes, it could be more interactive in the sense that you could have a bigger impact in the story. But being a game, it has the choice of being in first person, so you get to live the story from that perspective, and you have the choice of spending the time on immersing yourself in the world or just speeding through it. It makes it a more personal experience than watching a movie. Plus, a game that focus on telling a good story is so different than the norm, that I can't see how this is a problem at all.
I think the problem is, they put so much into realizing the world, that some people see that as trying to do both. The way I see it, other than the baseball choice, there isn't any objective or quest directly related to any of these themes, even in the beginning of the game. So I never got the impression that they would ever become central to the plot.
The Librarian
Banned
Sky-lines are for moving around. I never fire my weapon from them unless it's the RPG or grenade launcher; both work extremely well. Hand cannon too. It's a lot of fun fighting that way. The game is only conventional if you play it as such.
My shields weren't constantly breaking. No more than in Halo from what I noticed.