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Bitcoin price skyrockets, crashes, rinse, repeat, internet starts investing in tulips

D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
ees4777
what happened today?

articles like these

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/10/business/will-bitcoin-replace-paypal/
http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/12/05/i-bought-everything-on-my-christmas-list-with-bitcoin/
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57...dent-david-marcus-bitcoin-is-good-nfc-is-bad/

Exchange fees are usually 3%+ though, so savings in transaction fees only occur with multiple consecutive transactions in btc. This only works if sellers can buy raw materials or wholesale in btc. Does that happen anywhere outside of drugs?

There is also a tax evasion argument of course...

which exchange is charging 3%?

MtGox
Europe/SEPA Transfers (EUR)

* Deposits
Bank details: Provided to verified Mt.Gox account holders on our website.

Processing Fees: Deposits incur a fee of up to 10 PLN / 2.50 EUR. Please be advised that if a wire transfer and not a SEPA transfer was used, fees may be charged by the sending bank or any intermediate bank used for the transfer.

Please also do not send two transfers of equal amount on the same day to us as it could result in only one deposit being credited.

* Withdrawals

All withdrawals will be sent through the Mt. Gox Polish bank account and will involve a 1% fee with a minimum of 5.5 PLN

Please note the following rules :
- It is not possible to withdraw less than 10 EUR.
- Withdraws lower than 100.00 EUR are on average take less than a week.
- It takes at least a month on average for withdrawals larger than 10,000 EUR
- Withdrawals greater than 50,000 EUR need to be split it into multiple transfers or you can use the International Wire payment method.
- Due to the volume of withdrawals requests, each customer is currently only allowed 1 withdrawal every 20 days (estimate)

Situation as of 10th December 2013: We are currently processing withdrawals requested 3 weeks. (Users with several withdrawals in the queue must take the 20 day rule above into account)

Kraken.com

What withdrawal methods does Kraken offer and what do they cost?

We offer the following withdrawal options (note that fees may change):

Bitcoin Withdrawal (0.00050 XBT)
Litecoin Withdrawal (0.02000 LTC)
Namecoin Withdrawal (0.00500 NMC)
Ven Withdrawal (Free)
Ripple (XRP) Withdrawal (0.00002 XRP)
EUR SEPA Withdrawal - EEA countries only (0.09€)
EUR Bank Wire Withdrawal - EEA countries, USA, Canada, and Australia (5€)
EUR Bank Wire Withdrawal - all other countries (10€-40€ - ask for exact price)
USD Bank Wire Withdrawal ($30)
USD Bank Wire ABA Withdrawal - US only ($30)
USD Check by Mail Withdrawal - US only (Free)
KRW Bank Wire Withdrawal - Korea residents only (Free)
Other withdrawal options coming soon.

Kraken is great. 0.2% on trades and it shrinks as you do more volume.
 

kick51

Banned
Everything on cryptsy had a nice, huge bump, but I hope you sold around 14 hours ago, cause it's all in the process of getting dumped.

i missed out on a good SXC profit, but QRK, ZET, and WDC all gave me ridiculous returns. I left some in so I hope the boats rise with the ocean again.
 

Phoenix

Member
Volatility == money if you can find a way to automate the process. With all the virtual currencies there are ludicrous arbitrage opportunities. Best to get in on them before the market really regulates them.
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
Everything on cryptsy had a nice, huge bump, but I hope you sold around 14 hours ago, cause it's all in the process of getting dumped.

i missed out on a good SXC profit, but QRK, ZET, and WDC all gave me ridiculous returns. I left some in so I hope the boats rise with the ocean again.

where do you get in on qrk?
 

Phoenix

Member
Buying virtual money off the Internet. What could possibly go wrong?

Its pretty much the same as any other commodity trading at this point, just that its unregulated and there is massive volatility because its not filled with more "mature market" traders. IOW, you can make money from trading currency - something that is extremely difficult in meaningful way with real world currencies.
 
*checks bank account*

nothing, if you're smart. a lot, if you're dumb. just the regular stocks+commodities exchanges

That's a ridiculous thing to say. The bottom can fall out at any moment, and nobody can predict when that will occur (except perhaps early adopters with huge hoards who have the power to tank the whole thing). There is no smart or dumb here. Just random guessing which you may happen to win or lose on.
 

kick51

Banned
That's a ridiculous thing to say. The bottom can fall out at any moment, and nobody can predict when that will occur (except perhaps early adopters with huge hoards who have the power to tank the whole thing). There is no smart or dumb here. Just random guessing which you may happen to win or lose on.


you just described every market.

And at the end of the day, all the data and predicting power in the world still might not be correct for other markets as well and they can and have fallen out/receded from under people enough times to let you know another big one will happen at some point, but that it's not the end. The important part is the potential support in that event. Well, there's more of that than ever for crypto, probably exponentially more than the userbase during the April crash, including China. It'll crash again, but if you hold through it, then it's more of a trading time out than "omg i lost all my money" (which is the wrong attitude.)

Whales don't play the market like some little kid playing sim city. They do sell off multiple times a week, but A) it's easy to see coming and work with, B) there's no difference in whether it's a planned dump or if they need to buy a ferrari, the money is leaving the market and it's up to everyone else to not dump. That's where the smart/dumb thing comes into play...don't dump when everyone else is. surprisingly hard to not do at first.

These kinds of worries are pretty superficial and make think you haven't done your research, but anyway, nothing to wrap yourself in bubble-wrap about here. People are supposed to be using their disposable income anyway, that's rule #1, imo.
 

asa

Member
Damn, I keep falling deeper into the rabbit hole, I just bought secondhand 7970 and spend few hours tweaking it to get most out of litecoin mining pool calculations, I've made whole 1 euro already. Next up: alt currencies like Grandcoin, Fastcoin, or my personal favorite Hobonickels, oh my, what have I gotten into!?
 

Tenrius

Member
Come to think about it, I could do 100% profitable mining since the electricity is free in my dorm. All I have is my laptop though, which is not particularly good for mining even lighter coins and I'd prefer to actually use it instead anyway.
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
Just like housing prices will never fall, right?

the bitcoin prices crash almost weekly worse than the housing market. it's ridiculous in its volatility.

I was responding to empty vessel who claims to know that it's all doomed. he doesn't know that (neither do I and neither do you). It's just getting irritating that people that only see the negatives in bitcoin appear to be entirely unable to see the positives instead just labelling it a 'pyramid scheme'
 

FODEA

Banned
the bitcoin prices crash almost weekly worse than the housing market. it's ridiculous in its volatility.

That wasn't the comparison I was making. I was pointing out a lot of experts didn't see the collapse of the housing market coming. Some did, the vast majority did not.

People (including experts) understand a lot less about bitcoin than they do about the housing market.
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
That wasn't the comparison I was making. I was pointing out a lot of experts didn't see the collapse of the housing market coming. Some did, the vast majority did not.

People (including experts) understand a lot less about bitcoin than they do about the housing market.

oh right. yes indeed. I think nobody knows where this is going to go. I do know that if the governents all say 'stop using that guys' nobody is going to say yes though. I just hope the exchanges will be allowed to continue to operate.
 

Fury Sense

Member
Back down to the low 700s. I think if it goes below it's time to buy again. I'm still waiting on approval (for my own good probably).
 

Arcayne

Member
I've been trying to learn about this bitcoin phenomenon a couple days ago and am still wildly confused. If I read correctly, you're supposed to "solve math equations" which rewards bitcoin(s), a digitized internet currency thats keeps yourself anonymous in an open source. And from what I tried-to-read-but-instead-skimmed-because-confusion over, one bitcoin is worth 700$?

?? What the?
 
I've been trying to learn about this bitcoin phenomenon a couple days ago and am still wildly confused. If I read correctly, you're supposed to "solve math equations" which rewards bitcoin(s), a digitized internet currency thats keeps yourself anonymous in an open source. And from what I tried-to-read-but-instead-skimmed-because-confusion over, one bitcoin is worth 700$?

?? What the?

Well, I can give it a shot:

Bitcoin was developed by an anonymous programmer or group of programmers known only as Satoshi Nakamoto. In theory, BTC represents a decentralized currency which can act as a means of exchange and a store of wealth without the regulations of a central banking authority. For this reason it is championed by a certain subset of libertarians, techno-anarchists, and genuinely curious people. While it is most notable for the fact that it is favored by drug dealers and money launderers online, a small (but growing) number of legitimate businesses accept btc as payment.

I'm a bit fuzzy on Mining, but this is the best explanation that was given to me, and that I' can give to you. Maybe someone can correct it if needed: "Mining" refers to the process of performing the complex mathematical calculations necessary to validate transactions between peers. By distributing this process, the system protects its own integrity and prevents individuals from creating BTC out of thin air. You can earn bitcoins by allowing the network to use your processor to "mine." For most people this is no longer economical, due to the price of electricity.

Think of mining this way. You can write whatever you want in your checkbook, but your bank knows the Truth. This is a server-client relationship. If you remove the bank from the system (as Bitcoin aspires to do) there is no longer a central authority that knows the Truth. You need some mechanism by which to validate funds as you spend and recieve money. This is especially important if your means of exchange has no physical equivalent (like coinage). Bitcoin uses cryptography to represent transactions, and distributes the process of encoding those transactions to a number of machines. This is a peer-to-peer relationship, and keeps people from breaking the system.

Anyway, as more people use bitcoin, the bitcoin "economy" should grow, demand for BTC should increase, and the value should go up. That is the theory.

In practice, BTC is feared to function kind of like a Ponzi scheme: late adopters put money in, early adopters take it out and post about it online. Rinse and repeat. Years ago it was worth pennies. In early April it was worth over $260, before it crashed in the course of 72 hours to less than $100. Two weeks ago 1BTC was worth $1200, and now one BTC is worth around $740. These changes do not reflect changes in the size of the bitcoin economy- they represent changes in demand due to speculative purchasing. Different news items have caused individual investors (not users, investors) to purchase and flee bitcoin time and time again. While the dollar is backed by the word of the US government and the strength of the US economy, bitcoin's price swings have been driven by people looking to make a quick buck.

This is, at the moment, its biggest weakness: Bitcoin cannot provide the stability a currency requires as long as it is an attractive (yet risky) 'commodity' for speculators. And unlike many commodities (like steel, or oil) it doesn't have its own intrinsic value. It is valuble because it is popular, right now.

And like I said, I think the price is too high. But to each his own.
 

maharg

idspispopd
The 'equation' is finding a hash that is less than a certain value, which is called the difficulty, and is dynamically adjusted so the approximate amount of time it takes to calculate the next one is 10 minutes.

A hash, in this case, is a number whose bits are tied to as many bits of the input as possible and thus are a more or less unique identifier of the content. A super-simplistic and not at all good hash is a simple crc where you add each byte of the input to the next. If you had the bytes:

Code:
001 002 003 004

the hash of that input would be 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10.

The hash that bitcoin uses is called sha256 and results in a 256 bit number that has every bit of the input affecting every bit of the hash. It is much more complex and much slower than the algorithm above.

What happens in bitcoin is that when someone wants to send some of their bitcoins to someone else, they sign a transaction with their private key (more on this at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_key_cryptography), saying which public key it's from and to and how much it is and then they broadcast it over a network that works in some ways like bitttorrent. Every other bitcoin client gets a copy of this.

Miners take a set of these transactions, put them into a data structure, which also includes the hash of the last block added to the block chain and a field called the nonce, and then hash the structure (called a block). If the hash results in a number lower than the current network difficulty, the block is broadcast and other clients add it to their block chain and it, and all the transactions in it, basically becomes permanent at that point. If not, the nonce is incremented and the block is hashed again. Repeat until either a new block has come online or a block has been found. The miner also has the privilege to be able to add an arbitrary transaction (or set of transactions) into the block that outputs an amount of bitcoin to their public key (or whatever public key(s) they choose). This amount was, for the first few years of bitcoin, 50btc. It halves after a certain number of additional blocks and is currently 25btc, and will next drop to 12btc in a couple years or so. They also get to output to themselves fees that people creating transactions have attached to their transactions to encourage them to be picked up by miners. When the reward for block discovery reaches zero in a couple of decades it's expected that these fees will be the main reason to continue mining.

Every 2016 blocks the difficulty is adjusted. It either moves up or down depending on how long it took to generate those 2016 blocks. The difficulty is calculated such that it is a number sufficiently low to cause the next 2016 blocks to be generated in about 2 weeks. This is calculable by any client on the network from the timestamps on the blocks in the block chain that everyone's agreed on.

The reason all of this actually works and guarantees the validity of the transactions is that an immense amount of computing power would be required to put arbitrary blocks into the block chain. The effort is distributed over many many entities that all must agree on everything, and the only way to completely arbitrarily usurp the power is to have more hashing power than the rest of the network combined, because otherwise your bad blocks will be ignored and displaced by good blocks from good actors.

Whatever you think about bitcoin as a currency or store of value, it is an immense technical achievement and an extremely well designed system. Understanding it should be required for anyone who programs networked systems at this point because it's a huge leap forward on that front.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
All that processing power could be used for cancer research.
 

maharg

idspispopd
All that processing power could be used for cancer research.

Or it could be used for porn. Or video games. Or the existing financial transaction infrastructure. Or keeping facebook up.

Interestingly enough, all of these things still happen while bitcoin exists. I think it's also not a given that the computing power currently used for bitcoin could be efficiently or meaningfully devoted to cancer research. It's not really that simple.

Also, the mechanism by which bitcoin works is going to become very important in making ALL distributed solving systems more resilient to bad actors.
 

antonz

Member
The price collapse was price manipulation. A lot of bogus rumors of China cracking down and suddenly price plummets and now lots of people get to buy cheap LTC and BTC.
 
Here's a question. Is the set of cryptocurrencies finite, or infinite? With LTC and BTC and FTC I feel like the underlying mathematical mechanisms are infinitely scalable. (I could be wrong) If this is true, then we could constantly see new cryptocurrencies pop up could we not?

And if this all happens, what would a steady stream of new cryptocurrencies do to the overall market?
 

antonz

Member
Here's a question. Is the set of cryptocurrencies finite, or infinite? With LTC and BTC and FTC I feel like the underlying mathematical mechanisms are infinitely scalable. (I could be wrong) If this is true, then we could constantly see new cryptocurrencies pop up could we not?

And if this all happens, what would a steady stream of new cryptocurrencies do to the overall market?

You can have unlimited cryptocurrencies really its just they only matter if people accept them and embrace them.


The manipulators are having a field day. Guy just panic sold 6280 Litecoins at 21.79 each because of the decline even though the LTC is on the rebound. He did make 136,842 dollars but still panic selling cost him a lot.
 

Coreda

Member
All that processing power could be used for cancer research.

It's both sad and funny that with the new hashing chip rigs available there's actually nothing else they're good for. The processors are designed to only do one thing: solve hash problems.
 

HyperionX

Member
Here's a question. Is the set of cryptocurrencies finite, or infinite? With LTC and BTC and FTC I feel like the underlying mathematical mechanisms are infinitely scalable. (I could be wrong) If this is true, then we could constantly see new cryptocurrencies pop up could we not?

And if this all happens, what would a steady stream of new cryptocurrencies do to the overall market?

It's totally infinite. There's nothing in the algorithm itself that fundamentally limits their number. Merely that with bitcoin and copycats they've set a flag in the mining algorithm to stop allowing new ones after a point. I'm of the opinion that an infinite number of cryptocurrencies will drive the average value of a cryptocurrency down to zero, leaving us nothing but the decentralized transaction algorithm itself as the only thing that will hold value.

Interesting enough, that algorithm might be useful for a whole host of things completely unrelated to money. For instance, coupons or tickets that can't be counterfeited, unhackable transferable software licenses, or in-games items that are undupe-able. Useful stuff. Just not worth anything in of itself.
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
Here's a question. Is the set of cryptocurrencies finite, or infinite? With LTC and BTC and FTC I feel like the underlying mathematical mechanisms are infinitely scalable. (I could be wrong) If this is true, then we could constantly see new cryptocurrencies pop up could we not?

And if this all happens, what would a steady stream of new cryptocurrencies do to the overall market?

you tell me
http://dogecoin.com/

(it's real)

also coinmarketcap.com for all cryptos. have a look at cryptsy.com for how many cryptos you can trade.

be careful of cryptsy though if you wanna mess around. only heard bad things.
 
Not to step on anyones feathers, but this thing will crash right?

500 euros for a single bitcoin, which is fake currency?

If people accept bitcoins in a trade of goods or services, then that's pretty real to me.

We've reached the point where a large amount of people believe that bitcoins are an investment and a way to make money, so that in itself gives it value
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
Not to step on anyones feathers, but this thing will crash right?

500 euros for a single bitcoin, which is fake currency?
oh definitely. you should short it and make billions directly.

Nobody knows. It's a deflationary currency that has obvious massive benefits, as long as people see value in it, it's value will rise. Merryl Lynch (sp?) predict a 1BTC value of aprox 1300USD. cameron (or was it tyler) winklevoss thinks it will explode in value.

Everyone that doesn't know anything about it thinks that no trusted 3rd party oversite is a bad thing, despite it being basically impossible to forge due to the maths.

It's an incredible technical achievement and it's an easy way to move money around the globe with miniscule fees.
 

Ripclawe

Banned
a little nimble there and a little nimble here. lets see if 500 is the limit

ib2fNr31qbWFHL.jpg
 
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