I get your point, but the gold rush if anything, was a literal flash in the pan that helped demonstrate that gold is a finite, valuable and irreplaceable resource. Further, gold and other heavy metals became more practically valuable as technology started to require them. Bitcoins are more like diamonds. I'll just leave it at that.
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Bitcoin price skyrockets, crashes, rinse, repeat, internet starts investing in tulips
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I get your point, but the gold rush if anything, was a literal flash in the pan that helped demonstrate that gold is a finite, valuable and irreplaceable resource. Further, gold and other heavy metals became more practically valuable as technology started to require them. Bitcoins are more like diamonds. I'll just leave it at that.
TheVampire
Banned
I would like to buy in again but since the price is at $1000 I feel its too risky.
If I had of known when it was at $150 I would have bought $1000 worth but with the price right now I dont want to risk loosing my money if it crashes.
If I had of known when it was at $150 I would have bought $1000 worth but with the price right now I dont want to risk loosing my money if it crashes.
TheHeretic
Banned
The value of this thing is completely disconnected from fundamentals. If you design a currency with built in scarcity as time goes on there's more value in holding it than using it as an exchange for goods and services because it can only experience deflation. The difference between this and gold is that gold is historically seen as valuable in all societies, and so there's some guarantee that gold a hundred years from now will still maintain some value. Nobody knows if a bitcoin will be worth anything in a few years.
Onion_Relish
Member
Gold, unlike bitcoins, actually has utility. It is used in high end electronics, medical and industrial applications, and of course jewelery. The problem is other cryptocurrencies will come out and eat bitcoins lunch eventually. There is nothing bitcoin can't do that other cryptocurrencies and normal cash can't do better.
IronicallyTwisted
Banned
You are right, but the aesthetic value of gold is more enduing than the technological applications of gold. Gold was valuable when it had no real use, thats what differentiates it from so many other assets, its value seems disconnected from its utility. Even if Gold went back to having no major utility, say its technological utility was replaced, it would still be valuable i'd say.
As for crypto currencies, there are better ways to design them I think. The design of this thing is just doomed to fail.
Isdat Afamas
Banned
Just bought in at 910 for a bitcoin
Shit better keep rising
Shit better keep rising
criesofthepast
Member
Buy litecoins and sit on it. Guaranteed it will hit $100+ one day soon. This shit is insane. The insane part is it isn't even on MTGox yet. When that day comes it will hit $100+ easily I think.
Also the new exchange Vault of Satoshi at least for Canadians has an opportunity for some big arbitrage. CaVirtex is hovering at $900 a bitcoin whereas people are buying for $950 on Vault of Satoshi. Go back and forth transferring/selling/buying bitcoins and the arbitrage is bigger than the fees by a decent bit. Free money.
Also the new exchange Vault of Satoshi at least for Canadians has an opportunity for some big arbitrage. CaVirtex is hovering at $900 a bitcoin whereas people are buying for $950 on Vault of Satoshi. Go back and forth transferring/selling/buying bitcoins and the arbitrage is bigger than the fees by a decent bit. Free money.
empty vessel
Member
Nobody is buying goods and services with bitcoins. Nor does anybody want to.
Anything other than your opinion to back that up? Bitcoin has been used to trade goods and services, as well as other coins - they're just smaller market places.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
this is such shit.
sorry but there is a massive enthusiast community around bitcoins. you're simply wrong on the bolded.
1 example
www.gyft.com (note I don't use this as I'm not american)
accepts bitcoin. With this you can purchase amazon giftcards. apparently by paying in bitcoin you make something like a 3% saving, as there is no creditcard fees and the online retailer passes some of the saving onto you.
A friend and I are doing a 'trading league' via google spreadsheets. we both put in 100 euro. we buy bitcoins, we buy litecoins and we trade them to see who can be 'the richest'
I fully expect this to burn my 100 eventually, but screw it, we both had 100 bucks to lose and it has the nice knock on that if the internet continues to go mental, that hundred bucks might turn into 1000 bucks. I've burned 100 at a casino before. This has the upshot of actually educating me about trading as well.
You say this, but by the end of your own post you're already talking about bitcoins like they're an investment asset.
Skel1ingt0n
I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
Holy shit buying this stuff is impossible.
Would anybody be willing to sell me about $100 USD worth of Litecoins for PayPal? At the current price of $21ish a coin, it looks like I could get about 4.7 coins. I'd be willing to pay more (plus a little extra for the simplicity) for five LTC. I'd like a small, even number to sit on. Would really appreciate it, and can PayPal immediately.
Would anybody be willing to sell me about $100 USD worth of Litecoins for PayPal? At the current price of $21ish a coin, it looks like I could get about 4.7 coins. I'd be willing to pay more (plus a little extra for the simplicity) for five LTC. I'd like a small, even number to sit on. Would really appreciate it, and can PayPal immediately.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
So? Both things are true.
A large community wants to see it a way to use it as a currency
I don't give a shit about the community and want to play trader with the graphs and pretend currencies. I don't actually see how that runs counter to the first anyway, you can do the same as what i'm doing now with bitcoin as you can with real currency, real currencies tend to be less volatile though.
Skel1ingt0n said:
I don't have enough sorry, only got about 4 myself and had to sacrifice a goat to get some in the first place. I can help though.
make accounts on mtgox and btc-e both are free.
run through the verification procedure for mt gox. wait 10 days. now you can buy bitcoin with real money (sepa transfer in EU, no idea in US, but it's possible) you can move btc around between wallets for around 6 cents a transfer.
EDIT: as far as I can tell, you can only trade Litecoin on BTC-e at the moment. unaware of any other exchanges.
If wishes were horses...
...and more to the point, I doubt many see using bitcoin as legal tender to be more than a novelty.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
what are you talking about?
he said
I said that people DO WANT TO.
I didn't say anything else about the community other than there is a large amount of people that do want to. this isn't an opinion, it's a fact.
Those who want to use it as a currency will become less and less as time goes on, since it is in fact a deflationary currency. People will try to horde it, which means that it just will not be useful as a form of currency.
BudokaiMR2
Member
I am really depressed that I never had the cash to buy into Bitcoin when it was reasonable about a year ago. WHY DID I DECIDE TO START A FAMILY NOW!?
I was finally able to wrap my head around this entire concept. I feel like an idiot because the underlying idea is so simple and something I have believed for years.
Star Trek future is almost at our doorstep!
I am going to keep an eye out for all of the altcoins and hope I hit it lucky one day.....
I was finally able to wrap my head around this entire concept. I feel like an idiot because the underlying idea is so simple and something I have believed for years.
Star Trek future is almost at our doorstep!
I am going to keep an eye out for all of the altcoins and hope I hit it lucky one day.....
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
the need for anonymous currency will continue. perhaps it won't be bitcoin, but this kind of anonymous currency will continue. how else will people buy drugs/smuggle cash? perhaps not bitcoin itself, but an alt coin, litecoin bbqcoin whatever.
also it being deflationary doesn't matter that much.
'dude you owe me 100grand'
'ok, I will send you .000001 bitcoin ok, cause it's really fucking expensive now'
'deal'
done
the system is already being iterated upon. example litecoin, 4 times as many possible coins when done mining. The real interesting thing is what happens to the currency when mining is complete and there are no more coins to mine.
TheHeretic
Banned
Dividing the coins into smaller coins is irrelevant. The point is why spend $100 worth of bitcoins of $100 worth of goods when all the bitcoin does is go up in value. The smart move is to simply hold onto the money. This is why reserve banks never run their currencies in a deflationary mode, and target 2-3% inflation.
brain_stew
Member
Any tips for buying litecoins for someone from the UK? It seems a complete minefield at present.
Edit: Anyone have experience with bitbargain.co.UK?
Seems I can buy litecoins from there with a bog standard bank transfer although it looks like there's a fair few steps to jump through to eventually sell the things. Anyone have any experience buying or selling on there?
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
I'm from NL and also have the same issues. can UK do sepa transfers? if so, you can buy BTC then move money to BTC-e.com and buy litecoin using bitcoin
you can also do a sepa transfer directly to btc-e.com but it's a 2000 euro minimum to a czech bank. that made my butthole go wobbly just reading it.
legit sites. you will need to give pretty good documentation to allow you to do bank transfers. I'm talking proof of residence, copy of identification and then you must wait for 5-10 days for verification. I've tried to verify at mtgox and bitstamp. Still waiting (last week I did this) probably will be another week as my utility bill isn't in english.
mtgox
bitstamp
btc-e (this is the only place to trade lite that I know of)
or sell them when it breaks 1000USD and buy it again when it's less than 400...
I don't know why everyone is professing to understand so well how this is going to behave. if you know this, why aren't you buying a lot, then sitting on it and getting rich?
no one knows what's really going on with this new thing, that's why it's exciting to observe (and participate in)
Wasn't it only 500 a while back? No way would I send 2K just like that.
Richard Branson accepts bitcoins for space flights.
i'm sure that'll be a complete game changer in the market for space flights
A Link to the Past
Banned
I hate not being a go-getter.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
yes, but you don't send 2k to bitcoins, you send it to the exchange. then you just have 2k sitting in euro/usd in your account. you can choose at what time to purchase bitcoin/litecoin. you could spend 10bucks on bitcoin at that point and leave 1990 sitting in real monies in your account. there is a fee for cashing out, something like 15 bucks or so.
the only real risk during the deposit phase is do you trust the website.
Long post incoming -- gotta set some shit straight.
Man, some people have the most woefully incorrect preconceived notions about the word "currency." Even more frustrating are the people who do not seem to grasp the differences between fiat currency and Bitcoin. Money is absolutely anything that can be used as a trading medium, assuming that the parties transacting believe in the value of the medium. This medium can be cash, pelts, crops, cigarettes, or even Bitcoin. Forget about Bitcoin speculation, or its inherent "worthlessness" (which I will dispute further down). If people use it as medium for purchasing goods and services, IT IS A CURRENCY.
Despite what the armchair economists may be claiming in this thread, PEOPLE TRANSACT IN BITCOIN. How do I know this? I am a business owner who receives a consistent stream of Bitcoin payments. Many stores in Kreuzberg, Berlin have adopted Bitcoin as a currency of transaction -- to great success (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/video/2013/apr/26/bitcoin-currency-moves-offline-berlin-video). Silk Road (and its successor) have seen BILLIONS OF DOLLARS worth of transactions. Many popular VPNs and hosting companies have been transacting in Bitcoin for months (or even years). Do people use it as a medium for exchange? Yes? It's a currency, plain and simple.
I also don't understand the point of comparing fiat money disappearing from the economy to missing Bitcoins. The function of modern currency is conditional upon the function of the fractional reserve banking system, whose existence is predicated upon debt. Deflation (the phenomenon that occurs when the supply of money decreases) within the fractional reserve banking system will increase the real money value of debt, in effect decreasing production of goods, demand, and spending. While this is bad, bad, BAD for fractional reserve banking, it does NOT apply to Bitcoin. Deflation can be quite problematic for economic systems which rely on centralized authorities to verify the movement of money (or more accurately, debt) on behalf of the economy. BTC is not created by a centralized authority, much less a fractional reserve bank. It is a decentralized currency brought into existence by miners, whose only purpose is the objective verification of transactions through means of cryptography. In fact, deflation is a BUILT-IN FEATURE of Bitcoin, and the deflation caused by a few wallets going dark is NOTHING compared to the deflation we are experiencing due to the increasing demand of Bitcoin. In fractional reserve banking, deflation may be a sign of a slowing economy (or people's unwillingness to spend), but with Bitcoin, deflation ONLY occurs when the economy is GROWING.
Another ridiculous oft-repeated claim is that the instability of Bitcoin categorically prevents it from being accepted by vendors. Using a payment processing service like BitPay (which charges MUCH smaller transaction fees than credit card companies), vendors can accept payments in Bitcoin and have the exact dollar value transferred into their bank accounts same-day if they don't want to speculate on the value of BTC. The only obstacles to vendor adoption is ignorance and politics. While it is true that Bitcoin speculators (read: hoarders) may be less likely to transact in Bitcoin, there are still a lot of people who see the benefit of transacting in Bitcoin, and do so on a regular basis.
Oh, and if I'm still debunking ridiculous claims, let's talk about this whole idea of BTC being a pyramid scheme. The misguided notion that a pyramid scheme is defined as something that's beneficial to early adopters and painful for late comers is wrong. Although that may be a SINGLE feature of a pyramid scheme, one similarity does not make two things equal. To claim otherwise would be to commit the fallacy of a false analogy. A private company going IPO is not a pyramid scheme, even though it's incredibly fruitful for early investors and much riskier for late investors. Gold mining was not a pyramid scheme, despite being incredibly profitable for early adopters, yet very problematic for late comers.
A pyramid scheme is a planned conspiracy in which a conman (or conmen) convince unsuspecting idiots to invest into a fake and incredibly vague service/product, with promises of great riches. Recruited idiots are then sent out to recruit more idiots to invest into the same fake promise. These new idiots go out and recruit even more idiots. At the end of the day, the conmen run off with the investment of said idiots, never actually having provided any product or service. Bitcoin CANNOT be a pyramid scheme because it is a real commodity. It is trading medium that allows people to transact without fees or scrutiny from financial institutions. It allows people to send money anywhere in the world for free. It is an infinitely more secure way of transacting online than the traditional methods (like credit cards, Pay Pal, Western Union, T/T, etc). And finally, it is a sound investment into the future of online payment systems.
It's understandable if you're angry that early Bitcoin adopters are millionaires, poised to become even richer, when you're stuck pondering an investment you consider to be risky. I'm pretty angry that I didn't invest in Tesla when it went IPO. But I'm not going on about how the Tesla stock is some pyramid scheme.
Even IF we were to accept that ridiculous definition of a pyramid scheme, it still wouldn't apply to Bitcoin. The claim that late users of Bitcoin would somehow be hurt or swindled by early adopters is nonsensical. Even if Bitcoin is worth $10,000,000, and all the early investors are fat cats living off of a sound investment, Grandma Edith can still use it to send 0.1 BTC ($10,000) to her sister in Poland without any fees or financial scrutiny. Even IF all the fat cats bought out and crashed the price of BTC to $0.1, cousin Rick could still sell wood-carved Elvis heads online for 1000s of BTC without the transaction fees of credit card processors. How exactly are these later adopters left holding the bag?
Anyways, there's a fuckload more I wanted to say, but I'm tired as hell. I'll leave it at that for now.
Man, some people have the most woefully incorrect preconceived notions about the word "currency." Even more frustrating are the people who do not seem to grasp the differences between fiat currency and Bitcoin. Money is absolutely anything that can be used as a trading medium, assuming that the parties transacting believe in the value of the medium. This medium can be cash, pelts, crops, cigarettes, or even Bitcoin. Forget about Bitcoin speculation, or its inherent "worthlessness" (which I will dispute further down). If people use it as medium for purchasing goods and services, IT IS A CURRENCY.
Despite what the armchair economists may be claiming in this thread, PEOPLE TRANSACT IN BITCOIN. How do I know this? I am a business owner who receives a consistent stream of Bitcoin payments. Many stores in Kreuzberg, Berlin have adopted Bitcoin as a currency of transaction -- to great success (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/video/2013/apr/26/bitcoin-currency-moves-offline-berlin-video). Silk Road (and its successor) have seen BILLIONS OF DOLLARS worth of transactions. Many popular VPNs and hosting companies have been transacting in Bitcoin for months (or even years). Do people use it as a medium for exchange? Yes? It's a currency, plain and simple.
I also don't understand the point of comparing fiat money disappearing from the economy to missing Bitcoins. The function of modern currency is conditional upon the function of the fractional reserve banking system, whose existence is predicated upon debt. Deflation (the phenomenon that occurs when the supply of money decreases) within the fractional reserve banking system will increase the real money value of debt, in effect decreasing production of goods, demand, and spending. While this is bad, bad, BAD for fractional reserve banking, it does NOT apply to Bitcoin. Deflation can be quite problematic for economic systems which rely on centralized authorities to verify the movement of money (or more accurately, debt) on behalf of the economy. BTC is not created by a centralized authority, much less a fractional reserve bank. It is a decentralized currency brought into existence by miners, whose only purpose is the objective verification of transactions through means of cryptography. In fact, deflation is a BUILT-IN FEATURE of Bitcoin, and the deflation caused by a few wallets going dark is NOTHING compared to the deflation we are experiencing due to the increasing demand of Bitcoin. In fractional reserve banking, deflation may be a sign of a slowing economy (or people's unwillingness to spend), but with Bitcoin, deflation ONLY occurs when the economy is GROWING.
Another ridiculous oft-repeated claim is that the instability of Bitcoin categorically prevents it from being accepted by vendors. Using a payment processing service like BitPay (which charges MUCH smaller transaction fees than credit card companies), vendors can accept payments in Bitcoin and have the exact dollar value transferred into their bank accounts same-day if they don't want to speculate on the value of BTC. The only obstacles to vendor adoption is ignorance and politics. While it is true that Bitcoin speculators (read: hoarders) may be less likely to transact in Bitcoin, there are still a lot of people who see the benefit of transacting in Bitcoin, and do so on a regular basis.
Oh, and if I'm still debunking ridiculous claims, let's talk about this whole idea of BTC being a pyramid scheme. The misguided notion that a pyramid scheme is defined as something that's beneficial to early adopters and painful for late comers is wrong. Although that may be a SINGLE feature of a pyramid scheme, one similarity does not make two things equal. To claim otherwise would be to commit the fallacy of a false analogy. A private company going IPO is not a pyramid scheme, even though it's incredibly fruitful for early investors and much riskier for late investors. Gold mining was not a pyramid scheme, despite being incredibly profitable for early adopters, yet very problematic for late comers.
A pyramid scheme is a planned conspiracy in which a conman (or conmen) convince unsuspecting idiots to invest into a fake and incredibly vague service/product, with promises of great riches. Recruited idiots are then sent out to recruit more idiots to invest into the same fake promise. These new idiots go out and recruit even more idiots. At the end of the day, the conmen run off with the investment of said idiots, never actually having provided any product or service. Bitcoin CANNOT be a pyramid scheme because it is a real commodity. It is trading medium that allows people to transact without fees or scrutiny from financial institutions. It allows people to send money anywhere in the world for free. It is an infinitely more secure way of transacting online than the traditional methods (like credit cards, Pay Pal, Western Union, T/T, etc). And finally, it is a sound investment into the future of online payment systems.
It's understandable if you're angry that early Bitcoin adopters are millionaires, poised to become even richer, when you're stuck pondering an investment you consider to be risky. I'm pretty angry that I didn't invest in Tesla when it went IPO. But I'm not going on about how the Tesla stock is some pyramid scheme.
Even IF we were to accept that ridiculous definition of a pyramid scheme, it still wouldn't apply to Bitcoin. The claim that late users of Bitcoin would somehow be hurt or swindled by early adopters is nonsensical. Even if Bitcoin is worth $10,000,000, and all the early investors are fat cats living off of a sound investment, Grandma Edith can still use it to send 0.1 BTC ($10,000) to her sister in Poland without any fees or financial scrutiny. Even IF all the fat cats bought out and crashed the price of BTC to $0.1, cousin Rick could still sell wood-carved Elvis heads online for 1000s of BTC without the transaction fees of credit card processors. How exactly are these later adopters left holding the bag?
Anyways, there's a fuckload more I wanted to say, but I'm tired as hell. I'll leave it at that for now.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
^Question: when you get paid in BitCoins, do you keep them in BitCoins or cash them out?
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
nice post proudclod.
can you expand on the bitpay thing a little? As a filthy currency speculator, I'm confused how the person agrees the transaction cost with the online supplier and then the supplier gets the same value. I know that it happens I don't understand how.
take for example gyft.com apparently you can get amazon gift cards there using bitcoins and it saves you around 3%. Some redditor was preaching it in a bitcoin thread, but how exactly can they offer the price in bitcoin?
EDIT: I'm assuming the service essentially makes the transaction in bitcoin, converts it to cash and then pays you in cash? (or is that optional)
Also regarding currency speculation, it's currently going mental again. I purchased 6 litecoin today at 16 euro. it's worth 21 euro now, the value changed +2 euro while I was driving home. crazy.
Bitcoin also booming at the moment again. raised about 15 bucks today alone.
can you expand on the bitpay thing a little? As a filthy currency speculator, I'm confused how the person agrees the transaction cost with the online supplier and then the supplier gets the same value. I know that it happens I don't understand how.
take for example gyft.com apparently you can get amazon gift cards there using bitcoins and it saves you around 3%. Some redditor was preaching it in a bitcoin thread, but how exactly can they offer the price in bitcoin?
EDIT: I'm assuming the service essentially makes the transaction in bitcoin, converts it to cash and then pays you in cash? (or is that optional)
Also regarding currency speculation, it's currently going mental again. I purchased 6 litecoin today at 16 euro. it's worth 21 euro now, the value changed +2 euro while I was driving home. crazy.
Bitcoin also booming at the moment again. raised about 15 bucks today alone.
Dude that's like 220k, yes. sell.
You can give me one or two for the advice, if you want.
1Cn7G6DA1eMLeqLaxaBKCBECUm9tvpUhGM
HOLY SHIT
Share the load?
Sell what you need and hold some for the future.
Sell some and hold, use some to buy a bunch of Litecoin and you'll be on the moon in no time.
Coinbase is the easiest way to sell it, but it's not a trading site with orderbooks and such, you'll be selling it below Gox price. Gox is a little inflated compared to others because of their fees.
edit: oh and fucking congrats, that's amazing
Your points are well taken, but this seems to undercut the thrust of your argument. What good is bitcoin if the only people who want to hold onto it are speculators?
The market is building up around it. Not as fast as the value is growing, but the value is what makes people want to accept it. The number of places that accept it will get exponential over the next year.
And when someone makes a TRULY accessible way to exchange and hold securely with no effort, also probably over the next year, this shit is gonna be insanity.
unless there's a particularly bloody correction before any of that can happen, but that would take a monumental rejection of the coin. Right now, as soon as it starts slipping, it gets bought back within minutes! So, it seems far from over.
but have a "if shit hits the fan" plan and be smart to mitigate your losses, keep the greed in check.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
You are sitting on a huge amount of money, if true. Be very careful when listening to and acting on advice.
And congrats you won the internet.
Fenderputty
Banned
proudclod said:
I don't know too much about bitcoin, but this is just all sorts of inaccurate. A pyramid scheme is more about structure. Most of them sell stuff within this internal structure. Meaning, I have to buy my Cutco knives before I sell them. The person higher in the chain who sold the knives to me made out while I pander to my family and try and bring people on myself. The idea that a pyramid won't have a tangible product I'd just wrong though. There's all sorts of these scheme including financial ones like primerica, knives, health drinks, jewelry and makeup.
I'd be cashing out half and using it as a down payment for a house if I had 220 BTC.
Plz to share?
16h4fCd4qnfwURB64LPeoQhDu42Qenc9Fi
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
so I bought 100 euro in litecoin was it this morning.... Its worth 150 euro now. feels pretty nice. I think I'll just close my eyes for a week and hope the internet keeps doing its thing
Dude that's like 220k, yes. sell.
You can give me one or two for the advice, if you want.
1Cn7G6DA1eMLeqLaxaBKCBECUm9tvpUhGM
wtf is this shit
and the problem with those is that the money collects all in one place-- some asshole that nobody likes. If the money spreads around and gets used for purchases and trading, that's just another economy.
PetriP-TNT
Member
Yes, it's bound to go up up up and only up!
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