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[dinazimmerman]

As I pointed out before, "others are liable for the position of poor blacks in America, remedy lies wholly in the hands of the inner-city black community itself." The inner-city black community needs leaders that promote the policies Heckman recommends in this article: http://jenni.uchicago.edu/papers/Heckman_2011_Daedalus_v140_n2.pdf. I'm quoting the important parts:

In contemporary American society, the racial gap in achievement is primarily caused by gaps in skills. We live in a skill-based society, where both cognitive and soft skills determine life success. Inequality in skills and school performance is strongly linked to inequality in family environments. The precise mechanisms through which families produce skills are under investigation, but much is already known: namely, parenting matters. The true measure of child poverty and advantage corresponds to the quality of parenting a child receives, not just the money available to a household.

A growing percentage of American children across all racial and ethnic groups is being raised in dysfunctional families. The widening divide between the early environments of advantaged and disadvantaged children foreshadows even greater inequality in the next generation of Americans. We have learned a lot about how to foster skills since the 1960s, when the War on Poverty attempted to remediate skills deficits in people of all ages and developmental stages.

Investments that foster early life skills enhance the productivity of investment at later ages. They support schools and enhance the productivity of adult job training. Because of the dynamic complementarity of skill formation, policies that attack inequality at its early origins are cost effective. They promote equality and, at the same time, promote economic effciency. Such policies have no equity-efficiency trade-off.

The malleability and plasticity of young children declines with age. This fact makes investment in disadvantaged, low-skilled young adults less effective. To achieve the same adult outcomes, later-life remediation for disadvantage costs far more than early-life prevention. There is an equity-effciency trade-off for later-life remediation activities.

Our current policies to reduce achievement gaps ignore these simple truths. America currently places too much emphasis on improving schools compared to improving family resources. Supplementing the parenting resources of disadvantaged Americans will bolster American schools and enhance the effectiveness of school reforms. It will lower the burden of later-life remediation. A comprehensive, cost-effective policy to enhance the skills of disadvantaged children of all racial and ethnic backgrounds through voluntary, culturally sensitive support for parenting is a politically and economically sound strategy.

So what exactly does Heckman mean by "voluntary, culturally sensitive support for parenting?"

Supplement Disadvantaged Families, Don’t Blame Them.

What are the best ways to aid struggling families? How can society devise a cost-effective policy that promotes skill formation in children that acknowledges the trends affecting many American families? Many great minds have recognized that the family is a major source of social inequality. Some have even proposed replacing the family – a policy that has been tried, with disastrous consequences. Nothing can substitute for a parent’s love and care. Public policy must be reformulated to supplement family child-rearing resources when they are lacking and to recognize the dynamics of skill formation–the biology and neuroscience showing that skills beget skills; that success breeds success; that disadvantage affects the biology of the child and retards his or her development in terms of health, character, and intelligence.

While we do not yet know all of the mechanisms through which families influence their children, we know enough to suggest the broad contours of an effective child development strategy. Supplementing the early years of disadvantaged children addresses a major source of inequality. Indeed, many programs that supplement the child-rearing resources of families are effective. For example, the Perry Preschool Program targeted African American preschoolers in a city just outside Detroit who were born into poverty and had subnormal iq scores. For two years, the program taught children to plan, execute, and evaluate daily projects in a structured setting. It fostered social skills. Weekly home visits encouraged parenting. The Perry program was evaluated using random assignment with long-term follow-up for forty years. Rates of return were 7 to 10 percent per annum–higher than the return on equity over the postwar period from 1945 to 2008 and before the recent market meltdown. Notably, the Perry program did not boost the IQs of participants. It instead fostered soft skills.

The Perry program and other successful child development programs work because they start early. Benefits include enhanced school readiness and reduced burdens on schools’ special education programs. They produce benefits in the teen years such as better health behaviors, reduced teenage pregnancy, and lessened participation in crime. They promote higher adult productivity and self-suffciency. They supplement the family by working with both the mother and the child. Successful programs are voluntary and do not impair the sanctity of the family. Most mothers, however disadvantaged, want the best for their children. The voluntary nature of these programs avoids coercion and condescension and promotes dignity.

...

A strategy that places greater emphasis on parenting resources directed at the early years prevents rather than remediates problems. It makes families active participants in the process of child development. Adolescent remediation strategies as currently implemented are much less effective. This is the flip side of the argument for early intervention. Many skills that are malleable in the early years are much less so in the teenage years. As a consequence, remediating academic and social deficits later is much more costly, and, even then, sometimes ineffective. Certainly, such strategies earn annual rates of return far below the rates estimated for the Perry Program.

High-quality early childhood interventions involve none of the trade-offs between equity and efficiency that plague most public policies. Early interventions produce broadly based benefits and reduce social and economic inequality. At the same time, they promote productivity and economic efficiency. They are both fair and efficient. In contrast, the school-focused No Child Left Behind program diverts skill-development away from areas other than tested math and reading. Because it ignores inequality at the starting gate, No Child Left Behind in fact leaves many children behind.

 

[Blackace]

I would generally agree with you on that, but after seeing countless numbers of people quoting and imitating Tupac over and over, there is much more to it than simply entertainment. He is lifted up as almost God-like. Hip Hop is like a religion to a lot of people, persuading everything from how women are viewed, celebrating drugs and a thug mentality to political alignment. It's way more than purely entertainment, it's a lifestyle and a destructive one at that.

Can I say that is utter bullshit..

I grew up during the "colors" era of gangs and hip-hop and people do not imitate hip-hop...hip-hop imitates real life.

 

[The Technomancer]

Am I interpreting this right? So black males make 25% lower wages on average, but when you compare among positions of similar qualification they make 6% less then their peers?

 

[Dead Man]

I don't believe that in the history of the United States it is possible to overstate the effects of slavery. It isnt possible...

Being facetious, of course you can. But more usefully, does it work to keep hammering about slavery? Does it result in any greater benefit than discussing other aspects that are less well known?

As I pointed out before, "others are liable for the position of poor blacks in America, remedy lies wholly in the hands of the inner-city black community itself." The inner-city black community should promote the policies Heckman recommends in this article: http://jenni.uchicago.edu/papers/Heckman_2011_Daedalus_v140_n2.pdf. I'm quoting the important parts:



So what exactly does Heckman mean by "voluntary, culturally sensitive support for parenting?"

This is excellent:

Supplement Disadvantaged Families, Don’t Blame Them.

What are the best ways to aid struggling families? How can society devise a cost-effective policy that promotes skill formation in children that acknowledges the trends affecting many American families? Many great minds have recognized that the family is a major source of social inequality. Some have even proposed replacing the family – a policy that has been tried, with disastrous consequences. Nothing can substitute for a parent’s love and care. Public policy must be reformulated to supplement family child-rearing resources when they are lacking and to recognize the dynamics of skill formation–the biology and neuroscience showing that skills beget skills; that success breeds success; that disadvantage affects the biology of the child and retards his or her development in terms of health, character, and intelligence.

While we do not yet know all of the mechanisms through which families influence their children, we know enough to suggest the broad contours of an effective child development strategy. Supplementing the early years of disadvantaged children addresses a major source of inequality. Indeed, many programs that supplement the child-rearing resources of families are effective. For example, the Perry Preschool Program targeted African American preschoolers in a city just outside Detroit who were born into poverty and had subnormal iq scores. For two years, the program taught children to plan, execute, and evaluate daily projects in a structured setting. It fostered social skills. Weekly home visits encouraged parenting. The Perry program was evaluated using random assignment with long-term follow-up for forty years. Rates of return were 7 to 10 percent per annum–higher than the return on equity over the postwar period from 1945 to 2008 and before the recent market meltdown. Notably, the Perry program did not boost the IQs of participants. It instead fostered soft skills.

The Perry program and other successful child development programs work because they start early. Benefits include enhanced school readiness and reduced burdens on schools’ special education programs. They produce benefits in the teen years such as better health behaviors, reduced teenage pregnancy, and lessened participation in crime. They promote higher adult productivity and self-suffciency. They supplement the family by working with both the mother and the child. Successful programs are voluntary and do not impair the sanctity of the family. Most mothers, however disadvantaged, want the best for their children. The voluntary nature of these programs avoids coercion and condescension and promotes dignity.

Good ideas in there, and evident that it works.

 

[dinazimmerman]

Am I interpreting this right? So black males make 25% lower wages on average, but when you compare among positions of similar qualification they make 6% less then their peers?

Basically, yes. But "similar qualifications" actually means "similar scores on tests." From the author:

In Table 1, the columns labeled “actual” show the percentage shortfalls in hourly wages of all employed blacks and Hispanics compared to the wages of all employed whites. The shortfalls for blacks relative to those of Hispanics indicate whether disparity in wages is a uniquely African American experience. (A negative number denotes a shortfall.) Black males earn 25 percent less than white males; Hispanic males earn 15 percent less. For females, wages are 17 percent lower for blacks and 7 percent lower for Hispanics. The gaps in annual earnings are generally larger because minorities tend to be employed for fewer hours. These gaps are large and statistically significant–that is, they are unlikely to arise solely by chance.

Are these disparities the result of pervasive labor market discrimination or of gaps in skills? The two possible interpretations of the evidence in Table 1 (and their counterparts for other outcomes, presented in the Web appendix) have profoundly different implications for public policy. On the one hand, if persons of identical skill are treated differently in the market on the basis of race or ethnicity, a more vigorous enforcement of civil rights and affirmative action policies is warranted. If, on the other hand, the gaps arise from the level of skills that individuals bring to the labor market, then policies that foster skills should be emphasized.

To resolve this issue, I adjust adult wages by scores on scholastic ability tests measured in the teenage years. (See the columns labeled “adjusted” in Table 1.) After adjustment, the gaps substantially diminish for black males and are essentially zero for Hispanic males. The gaps are reversed for females: that is, adjusting for their ability, minority females earn more than their white counterparts. (A positive number means that, on average, the ability-adjusted wages of minorities are higher than those of whites.)

So there is still evidence to believe there is labor market discrimination against black males, but notice again the difference between 25% and 6%. Most of the difference between black and white males' earnings can be explained by the gap in skills.

 

[Takuan]

So let's say the world accepts that slavery has definitely contributed to the situation much of the black population finds itself in today. Then what happens? I mean, I agree that you have to take into account the historical context of it all, but in what way does that understanding promote actual change? In the end, isn't the onus on black people to take action regardless of external ignorance? I think that's what Measley was getting at.

 

[Blackace]

Being facetious, of course you can. But more usefully, does it work to keep hammering about slavery? Does it result in any greater benefit than discussing other aspects that are less well known?

Because the effects are clearly still around...

slavery to Jim Crow all need to be discussed... The history of the country isn't that long and the effects of shouldnt be trivialized or ignored...

 

[JGS]

So let's say the world accepts that slavery has definitely contributed to the situation much of the black population finds itself in today. Then what happens? I mean, I agree that you have to take into account the historical context of it all, but in what way does that understanding promote actual change? In the end, isn't the onus on black people to take action regardless of external ignorance? I think that's what Measley was getting at.

If everyone owned up to the cause, then it would help in the sense that the playing field would be truly (potentially) level. There would not be as much friction to ensure equality which is there in the law, but not necessarily in the hearts.

It's not gong to happen though, so blacks must take care of themselves (Individually first imo so as to better help the community) and they also must work harder at it to succeed because of the inequality, lack of support, & the perception amongst many that slavery is no big deal now because it happened 2 centuries ago.

 

[Bleepey]

Pretending that this was a decent analogy, I once had a crazy girlfriend. She was so crazy I left her, about 6 years ago. She still harasses me to this day (she jumped out of a moving car once when she saw me on the street) and occasionally tries to fuck things up between me and my missus. How is this my fault? How do I stop her doing it?

People don't have absolute control over all external stimuli. Black people didn't 'let' this happen, they were powerless to stop it.

Edit:


Appreciated.

If there is such a thing as reincarnation i wanna live 1/10th the life you lived.

 

[Bleepey]

I'm that pesky Asian again, welcome to the problems of every immigrant group who has come to the US. The vast majority of us don't sail over with boatloads of cash, we all started at the very bottom (washing dishes in my grandparent's case). And some immigrant groups have done alright for ourselves to varying degrees, so why are blacks still at the very bottom? IMO American blacks would do well to study how other immigrant groups have pulled themselves up and take some notes while putting your own spin on it.



Of course slavery and the Jim Crow laws have had a stunting effect, because blacks let them. It's like that crazy gf who just won't let past wrongs go and will bring them up over and over again. Let it go and save the relationship and everyone's sanity~

What percentage of new immigrants are educated and what percentage aren't. IN thise case asian immigrants, what percentage of say Chinese or korean immigrants hold degrees compared to say Hmong refugees. I actually agree with a lotof what you and Measley are saying but i try to see all sides of the argument.

 

[Measley]

Its amusing to watch the Asian perspective get slammed as being unrealistic for black Americans because of a different history. Asian Americans experience quite a bit of discrimination and racism, but that doesn't stop them from valuing education, getting good jobs, and staying out of the criminal justice system.

Anyway, this question was never truly answered, so I'll try again;

What effects would slavery have on a black American male today? Give some specific examples of what may impede their ability to climb the socioeconomic ladder that are beyond their ability to avoid or change via personal choice. It can be in list format, since so many here are fond of that sort of thing.

 

[Blackace]

So let's say the world accepts that slavery has definitely contributed to the situation much of the black population finds itself in today. Then what happens? I mean, I agree that you have to take into account the historical context of it all, but in what way does that understanding promote actual change? In the end, isn't the onus on black people to take action regardless of external ignorance? I think that's what Measley was getting at.

Well I would like to promote look how far we have made it in a short time but we have so much more to do outlook... How we do that I don't know yet, but I do think it can be done..

 

[Busty]

No no no no nono. Save yourself, stay away!

On second thoughts I might just leave it.

Bless you 'samus i am'.

*runs off screaming*

 

[Measley]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL0QFZBLca4&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gh3_e3mDQ8&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL2AF7AC65D072F43B
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E
and my personal favorite;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3PJF0YE-x4&feature=related

 

[Blackace]

Its amusing to watch the Asian perspective get slammed as being unrealistic for black Americans because of a different history. Asian Americans experience quite a bit of discrimination and racism, but that doesn't stop them from valuing education, getting good jobs, and staying out of the criminal justice system.

Anyway, this question was never truly answered, so I'll try again;

What effects would slavery have on a black American male today? Give some specific examples of what may impede their ability to climb the socioeconomic ladder that are beyond their ability to avoid or change via personal choice. It can be in list format, since so many here are fond of that sort of thing.

I think the effects have been discussed in great detail you just don't want to accept it.. I can't tell you that a slave master will stop you. But being 400 years behind is a large handicap. Once people start claiming the playing field is even then we lose whatever small safety nets we left..

 

[royalan]

Its amusing to watch the Asian perspective get slammed as being unrealistic for black Americans because of a different history. Asian Americans experience quite a bit of discrimination and racism, but that doesn't stop them from valuing education, getting good jobs, and staying out of the criminal justice system.

The Asian perspective isn't getting slammed. Certain Asian posters who are trying to use the Asian experience to discredit the black experience are. Not all minorities are created equal and share the same social context in the US, and the difference between a group of people who willingly chose to come to this country vs. those who were forcibly taken has been quite obvious.

What effects would slavery have on a black American male today? Give some specific examples of what may impede their ability to climb the socioeconomic ladder that are beyond their ability to avoid or change via personal choice. It can be in list format, since so many here are fond of that sort of thing.

Again, nobody is suggesting that slavery is directly responsible for the specific actions of black american males today.I suggest you go back and read the thread, because multiple people have responded to you on this subject. If you don't like the answer, that is your problem. But please stop dragging the subject back to this topic that has been debated to death already. Move forward with the thread.

 

[staticneuron]

If everyone owned up to the cause, then it would help in the sense that the playing field would be truly (potentially) level. There would not be as much friction to ensure equality which is there in the law, but not necessarily in the hearts.

It's not gong to happen though, so blacks must take care of themselves (Individually first imo so as to better help the community) and they also must work harder at it to succeed because of the inequality, lack of support, & the perception amongst many that slavery is no big deal now because it happened 2 centuries ago.

In addition to this, questions about how things are "now" wouldn't need to be asked in such a manner. The main causes wouldn't need to be under debate but "how" to remedy the issue would be the main topic at hand.

But instead we get people who seemingly don't understand the effects of slavery, which lead to the black codes, Jim Crow Laws, Legal segregation and other various forms of Institutional racism which has led to Internalized racism , which is the main cause of the self destructive behavior we see in some neighborhoods today.

My main issue with the past few threads is people talking about slavery as if it is separate from the institutionalized racism that followed. The slave trade "created" the class and all the recognized social stigmas that went with it.

Now back to today. All the history explains is "why" we are still at the bottom of the ladder and it gives clues to what can be done about this. This isn't right for armchair analysis or for someone who is ignorant of the underlying cause and effects to tackle. This is a study in cultural anthropology and the current state of affairs is directly tied to the past but that doesn't mean that it cannot be changed.

Now I have studied the history but I have not studied the cultural effects past the civil rights movement in depth. My point of view is not an irrefutable POV on the subject but I firmly believe that things will change in a greater manner when the black community completes their exodus.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/census/2011-05-20-chicago-blacks-exodus_n.htm

Slowly but surely, I believe the current situations will force blacks into areas in which they are exposed to differing points of views and different cultures and that will change the attitudes and the drives for success. If anyone paid attention to the last census, it is pretty amazing how the 42 million are found in large concentrations in specific areas and the changes that have gone on in the past 10 years.

http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-06.pdf

This is an issue that will most likely fix itself the only thing question is time and if society can speed up the process.

 

[royalan]

In addition to this, questions about how things are "now" wouldn't need to be asked in such a manner. The main causes wouldn't need to be under debate but "how" to remedy the issue would be the main topic at hand.

But instead we get people who seemingly don't understand the effects of slavery, which lead to the black codes, Jim Crow Laws, Legal segregation and other various forms of Institutional racism which has led to Internalized racism , which is the main cause of the self destructive behavior we see in some neighborhoods today.

My main issue with the past few threads is people talking about slavery as if it is separate from the institutionalized racism that followed. The slave trade "created" the class and all the recognized social stigmas that went with it.

Now back to today. All the history explains is "why" we are still at the bottom of the ladder and it gives clues to what can be done about this. This isn't right for armchair analysis or for someone who is ignorant of the underlying cause and effects to tackle. This is a study in cultural anthropology and the current state of affairs is directly tied to the past but that doesn't mean that it cannot be changed.

Now I have studied the history but I have not studied the cultural effects past the civil rights movement in depth. My point of view is not an irrefutable POV on the subject but I firmly believe that things will change in a greater manner when the black community completes their exodus.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...s-exodus_n.htm

Slowly but surely, I believe the current situations will force blacks into areas in which they are exposed to differing points of views and different cultures and that will change the attitudes and the drives for success. If anyone paid attention to the last census, it is pretty amazing how the 42 million are found in large concentrations in specific areas and the changes that have gone on in the past 10 years.

http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/b...c2010br-06.pdf

This is an issue that will most likely fix itself the only thing question is time and if society can speed up the process.

Excellent post. The bolded simply can't be stressed enough.

 

[JGS]

Its amusing to watch the Asian perspective get slammed as being unrealistic for black Americans because of a different history. Asian Americans experience quite a bit of discrimination and racism, but that doesn't stop them from valuing education, getting good jobs, and staying out of the criminal justice system.

I don't mean to stereotype, but many immigrants have a much better network of help than in the black community. It's amazing to see how many time ones come into my office with nothing but a starting job and later are able to start a business or buy a house because of the group effort they display may times.

EDIT: Just so we're clear, this is a good thing.

What effects would slavery have on a black American male today? Give some specific examples of what may impede their ability to climb the socioeconomic ladder that are beyond their ability to avoid or change via personal choice. It can be in list format, since so many here are fond of that sort of thing.

Perception is the biggest one.

For example, blacks being less intelligent is carried over from the time they were thought of as animals. Never mind the fact that they weren't taught anything or that the media always portrayed them as such. Now it has evolved into a "What's the point" since stats can show that blacks are not as smart even when going to white schools. There was a thread recently about lowered standards for college admittance.

EDIT: I forgot the rest of the point. So what happens is the low intelligence argument is changed into a genitic issue with some exception instead of determining the root cause which is likely that since slavery, black people were not perceived on the same level as their white peers. I do believe this may carry over to integrated non-inner city schools.

I also think slavery had a damaging effect in that blacks bought into their status as slaves and so, with the exception of some black leaders, they felt that they couldn't compete with the white race. After all, white people were needed to free them in the first place. As a result there is a segregation that takes place.

There is also the case of relationships and this matter I think slavery plays a pretty direct role. I have no problems with people preferring their own race when it comes to dating,but in America I think it goes a bit deeper & tied to slavery where perceptions are that black men want white women for particular reasons that don't have much to do with love. Many people who are concerned about geneology may not want a family tree with a slave branch either.

Slavery also caused a bitterness that is hard to overcome when the perpatrators aren't necessarily apologetic of past actions. Why forgive a person/group that is unrepentant? This fosters distrust to the point that any perceived injustice is a racially motivated one. After all, a race that felt they could own another race and still maintains/encourages the attitude that led to slavery (Pride & Manifest Destiny) could change at a drop of the hat to recognize the good in slavery &/or discrimination. It doesn't help that time and again throughout history this is shown to be right both in the US and abroad.

That's all I got on the fly.

 

[MrPliskin]

Can I say that is utter bullshit..

I grew up during the "colors" era of gangs and hip-hop and people do not imitate hip-hop...hip-hop imitates real life.

I think it's a little of both, honestly. At a young age, people absorb and imitate what the see around them, and hip hop can reinforce those "values". I think, at least (I'm no psych major).

 

[Measley]

The Asian perspective isn't getting slammed. Certain Asian posters who are trying to use the Asian experience to discredit the black experience are. Not all minorities are created equal and share the same social context in the US, and the difference between a group of people who willingly chose to come to this country vs. those who were forcibly taken has been quite obvious.

Yes, but the last slave was brought to North America almost 200 years ago. The last slave was freed from American bondage in the 1860s. I would say American apartheid has had a larger impact on modern Black Americans than slavery did. However, even at the height of Jim Crow, black incarceration rates, illegitimacy rates, and drop out rates were not as high as they are today.

Hell, in 1960 80% of black children were born in wedlock. Today is almost the reverse with 72% being born to unmarried black mothers. How can you blame slavery or Jim Crow for that?

 

[Londa]

I don't mean to stereotype, but many immigrants have a much better network of help than in the black community. It's amazing to see how many time ones come into my office with nothing but a starting job and later are able to start a business or buy a house because of the group effort they display may times.

EDIT: Just so we're clear, this is a good thing.

Perception is the biggest one.

For example, blacks being less intelligent is carried over from the time they were thought of as animals. Never mind the fact that they weren't taught anything or that the media always portrayed them as such. Now it has evolved into a "What's the point" since stats can show that blacks are not as smart even when going to white schools. There was a thread recently about lowered standards for college admittance.

Not smart drug dealers and not smarter than animals. It's shocking that there are black people that can even use the internet. It must take them 10 seconds longer to type than a white person.

I think it's a little of both, honestly. At a young age, people absorb and imitate what the see around them, and hip hop can reinforce those "values". I think, at least (I'm no psych major).

There was gang banging before Run DMC. It was a way for black males to talk about gang violence and the horrors of poverty. So it was a reflection of what is really going on out there. It was just now something that everyone can view. People who were not forced into that situation imitated it (Vanilla Ice and other suburb rappers).

More white kids listen to rap than black people

This was mentioned before but it continues to be ignored. lol

 

[MWS Natural]

I would generally agree with you on that, but after seeing countless numbers of people quoting and imitating Tupac over and over, there is much more to it than simply entertainment. He is lifted up as almost God-like. Hip Hop is like a religion to a lot of people, persuading everything from how women are viewed, celebrating drugs and a thug mentality to political alignment. It's way more than purely entertainment, it's a lifestyle and a destructive one at that.

Bullshit. I wish people would stop bringing up hip-hop. I was born in 81' and my friends and I grew up listening to nothing but rap music. One is now a lawyer in NY, the other works as a press Secretary on capital hill and I am an engineer. The differences is that we had parents that would smack some sense into us if we ever came home cursing, with our pants hanging down or acting like a fool. More white kids listen to rap than black people, but as there is long as there is a family structure it doesn't matter.

Saying rap is a problem makes just as much sense as saying video games is a source of teenage violence.

Yes, but the last slave was brought to North America almost 200 years ago. The last slave was freed from American bondage in the 1860s. I would say American apartheid has had a larger impact on modern Black Americans than slavery did. However, even at the height of Jim Crow, black incarceration rates, illegitimacy rates, and drop out rates were not as high as they are today.

Hell, in 1960 80% of black children were born in wedlock. Today is almost the reverse with 72% being born to unmarried black mothers. How can you blame slavery or Jim Crow for that?

I already addressed each one of these points in a previous post. You just keep going in circles asking questions that people have already answered.


Ugh...why do I even bother?

 

[JGS]

Not smart drug dealers and not smarter than animals. It's shocking that there are black people that can even use the internet. It must take them 10 seconds longer to type than a white person.

*yawn* Please tell me you don't want to start up with the criminal defense act again.

If you want to identify with the IQ levels of people who are felons, be my guest and shut up concernin g the rest of us who have magically been unable to get ourselves arrested.

If, on the other hand, you wish to tell an outright lie on what I've stated about the the black community, we can have an idiotic call out thread to last a few pages until banishment. I specifically left it alone but we can easily start it back up if moral outrage is that strong and sympathetic to the idiotic black criminal.

 

[Measley]

I don't mean to stereotype, but many immigrants have a much better network of help than in the black community. It's amazing to see how many time ones come into my office with nothing but a starting job and later are able to start a business or buy a house because of the group effort they display may times.

EDIT: Just so we're clear, this is a good thing.

Agreed. I have noticed the same thing. I would also say that failure is looked down upon in many immigrant groups. For example, in Asian and African cultures, a lot of pressure is placed upon the children too succeed (some would say too much pressure). Failure in school is frowned upon, and many end up in higher education going into high paying fields like medicine and engineering.

Perception is the biggest one.

For example, blacks being less intelligent is carried over from the time they were thought of as animals. Never mind the fact that they weren't taught anything or that the media always portrayed them as such. Now it has evolved into a "What's the point" since stats can show that blacks are not as smart even when going to white schools. There was a thread recently about lowered standards for college admittance.

EDIT: I forgot the rest of the point. So what happens is the low intelligence argument is changed into a genitic issue with some exception instead of determining the root cause which is likely that since slavery, black people were not perceived on the same level as their white peers. I do believe this may carry over to integrated non-inner city schools.

I also think slavery had a damaging effect in that blacks bought into their status as slaves and so, with the exception of some black leaders, they felt that they couldn't compete with the white race. After all, white people were needed to free them in the first place. As a result there is a segregation that takes place.

There is also the case of relationships and this matter I think slavery plays a pretty direct role. I have no problems with people preferring their own race when it comes to dating,but in America I think it goes a bit deeper & tied to slavery where perceptions are that black men want white women for particular reasons that don't have much to do with love. Many people who are concerned about geneology may not want a family tree with a slave branch either.

Slavery also caused a bitterness that is hard to overcome when the perpatrators aren't necessarily apologetic of past actions. Why forgive a person/group that is unrepentant? This fosters distrust to the point that any perceived injustice is a racially motivated one. After all, a race that felt they could own another race and still maintains/encourages the attitude that led to slavery (Pride & Manifest Destiny) could change at a drop of the hat to recognize the good in slavery &/or discrimination. It doesn't help that time and again throughout history this is shown to be right both in the US and abroad.

That's all I got on the fly.

Thank you for actually giving some examples. That's all I asked for, and I appreciate you typing this up.

 

[MrPliskin]

Bullshit. I wish people would stop bringing up hip-hop. I was born in 81' and my friends and I grew up listening to nothing but rap music. One is now a lawyer in NY, the other works as a press Secretary on capital hill and I am an engineer. The differences is that we had parents that would smack some sense into us if we ever came home cursing, with our pants hanging down or acting like a fool. More white kids listen to rap than black people, but as there is long as there is a family structure it doesn't matter.

Saying rap is a problem makes just as much sense as saying video games is a source of teenage violence.

It can be a problem though when the parents don't make the same distinction yours did. It's not an influence of the music, rather an influence of the glamorized celebrity persona behind it and how well celebrated they can be amongst their listeners (and their children see this).

 

[Blackace]

I think it's a little of both, honestly. At a young age, people absorb and imitate what the see around them, and hip hop can reinforce those "values". I think, at least (I'm no psych major).

More surban kids imititate than inner city kids.. The Icy Hot Stuntas are a good example of that

Inner city kids can relate to it more but I don't believe in my mind they do not imitate rap music..

While it could cause reinforcement that is up for debate...

 

[Measley]

I already addressed each one of these points in a previous post. You just keep going in circles asking questions that people have already answered.


Ugh...why do I even bother?

I must have missed it. Can you repost?

Saying rap is a problem makes just as much sense as saying video games is a source of teenage violence.

It can be a problem if a strong family unit isn't in place to distinguish the reality from the fantasy. Since many black youth aren't coming from strong family units, they're taking their values and perceptions from music and other forms of entertainment.

 

[Dead Man]

I can always tell when the sun has risen in the US by checking this thread

 

[Londa]

*yawn* Please tell me you don't want to start up with the criminal defense act again.

If you want to identify with the IQ levels of people who are felons, be my guest and shut up concernin g the rest of us who have magically been unable to get ourselves arrested.

If, on the other hand, you wish to tell an outright lie on what I've stated about the the black community, we can have an idiotic call out thread to last a few pages until banishment. I specifically left it alone but we can easily start it back up if moral outrage is that strong and sympathetic to the idiotic black criminal.

you sure are full of it. On one hand you talk about kids that were brought over to white school that still did poor and then on the other hand you talk about felons.

My comment was a reflection of what you said earlier in this thread about blacks being dumber criminals. Now you again are talking about blacks being dumber than whites. smh. If you want someone to not challenge you, you need to quote some real information.

 

[Blackace]

http://deadspin.com/5851783/idiot-u...e-or-less-calls-amare-stoudemire-a-dumb-negro


Thought this might get along well here..

 

[Takuan]

Its amusing to watch the Asian perspective get slammed as being unrealistic for black Americans because of a different history. Asian Americans experience quite a bit of discrimination and racism, but that doesn't stop them from valuing education, getting good jobs, and staying out of the criminal justice system.

Asians were more prepared. They came from a background where academic achievement was essentially the sole means of climbing up the socioeconomic ladder, and the curriculum was (and still is) easier in the West. Their transition, at least from the perspective of adapting to the education system, was much easier, at least when it came to the maths and sciences - i.e. the areas of study that are necessary to pursue more valued degrees that allow them to earn a higher income. They also came voluntarily. The same can't be said for African slaves who were forced over.

Well I would like to promote look how far we have made it in a short time but we have so much more to do outlook... How we do that I don't know yet, but I do think it can be done..

Why can't this work right now? Racism is fundamentally a problem of ignorance, and you will always have the willfully ignorant. Those peoples' perspectives will only change if they are shown results; achieving said results ultimately lies on the black population.

 

[royalan]

For example, blacks being less intelligent is carried over from the time they were thought of as animals. Never mind the fact that they weren't taught anything or that the media always portrayed them as such. Now it has evolved into a "What's the point" since stats can show that blacks are not as smart even when going to white schools. There was a thread recently about lowered standards for college admittance.

EDIT: I forgot the rest of the point. So what happens is the low intelligence argument is changed into a genitic issue with some exception instead of determining the root cause which is likely that since slavery, black people were not perceived on the same level as their white peers. I do believe this may carry over to integrated non-inner city schools.

The "what's the point?" mentality is one of the dangerous of them all. It reminds me of my freshman year of high school when, despite transferring with excellent grades, I was placed in remedial math and english classes. I had to test out of them. Went from overcrowded classrooms filled with mostly black and hispanic students to no more than 30 desks per class and art on the walls.

Talking to my guidance counselor about that was one of the few times I've ever seen my mother act a hot ass mess in public. lol

I also think slavery had a damaging effect in that blacks bought into their status as slaves and so, with the exception of some black leaders, they felt that they couldn't compete with the white race. After all, white people were needed to free them in the first place. As a result there is a segregation that takes place.

This is where I think a lot of the "acting white" mentality stems from.

 

[SmokyDave]

Some great posts on this page. Goya & staticneuron particularly.

http://deadspin.com/5851783/idiot-u...e-or-less-calls-amare-stoudemire-a-dumb-negro


Thought this might get along well here..

paste-eating troglodyte

Yeah, I'm stealing that.

"D'you spill my fucking pint you paste-eating troglodyte?!"

 

[staticneuron]

Yes, but the last slave was brought to North America almost 200 years ago. The last slave was freed from American bondage in the 1860s. I would say American apartheid has had a larger impact on modern Black Americans than slavery did. However, even at the height of Jim Crow, black incarceration rates, illegitimacy rates, and drop out rates were not as high as they are today.

Hell, in 1960 80% of black children were born in wedlock. Today is almost the reverse with 72% being born to unmarried black mothers. How can you blame slavery or Jim Crow for that?

They are factors. A myriad of issues define what we see today. So trying to derive an answer from one specific event is never going to happen. The "american apartheid" came about "BECAUSE" of the slave trade and the classification of blacks as less than human. There are not separate when talking about causality.

What really bothers me about this is the sheer fact that this is being discussed in educational settings even to this day. It is still an open question despite so many people coming to similar conclusions. If you really wanted to get essays about the subject you could Google it and be provided with a ton of ideas and references about the subject.

But your question strikes at the heart of the state of affairs going on in the community at large. Most people here are trying to point out to you that these issues are most likely cased by a combination of economic and physiological stigmas that are root in internalized racism.

Is this still an issue? Of course it is. When Chris Rock released that movie "Good Hair" about the $9 billion black hair industry, it is a very poignant and very substantial look at how the legacy of slavery has effected black people in terms of negative self image and a hold over from the times when society as large viewed black features undesirable.

Some great posts on this page. Goya & staticneuron particularly.

Thank you Sir. I have been equally impressed by your posts as well

 

[Blackace]

.

Why can't this work right now? Racism is fundamentally a problem of ignorance, and you will always have the willfully ignorant. Those peoples' perspectives will only change if they are shown results; achieving said results ultimately lies on the black population.

It could work but to help battle the good enough mentality I think the truth of how badly we were effected by slavery needs to be addressed...

 

[samus i am]

http://deadspin.com/5851783/idiot-u...e-or-less-calls-amare-stoudemire-a-dumb-negro


Thought this might get along well here..

OH FOR FUCKS SAKE

 

[ryutaro's mama]

How can someone so willfully uneducated about the subject of the after effects of slavery/Jim Crow be placed in a position to mentor/teach Black children who carry those trickled down generational "bindings"?

He blatantly ignores everyone here that has given him reasons for how slavery/Jim Crow directly affects kids today.

Like 1964 was a hundred years ago.

There were all Black schools into the 1970s-- and it wasn't by choice.

 

[Blackace]

How can someone so willfully uneducated about the subject of the after effects of slavery/Jim Crow be placed in a position to mentor/teach Black children who carry those trickled down generational "bindings"?

He blatantly ignores everyone here that has given him reasons for how slavery/Jim Crow directly affects kids today.

Like 1964 was a hundred years ago.

There were all Black schools into the 1970s-- and it wasn't by choice.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/magazine/24prom-t.html?pagewanted=all

 

[JGS]

you sure are full of it. On one hand you talk about kids that were brought over to white school that still did poor and then on the other hand you talk about felons.

My comment was a reflection of what you said earlier in this thread about blacks being dumber criminals. Now you again are talking about blacks being dumber than whites. smh. If you want someone to not challenge you, you need to quote some real information.

Out of context much?

I was linking how slavery affects blacks today and you twist it to say that I think black people are actually dumber? OK.

Be mad at stats, don't be mad at me for explaining why I think the average is lower since you couldn't possibly think I think black people are dumb altogether unless you go off a comment about criminals. Black people and black criminals are not identical to each other unless you think they are.

 

[SmokyDave]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/magazine/24prom-t.html?pagewanted=all

2009?

Ages ago. Get over it.

Now, 2010, that's a different matter.

 

[Blackace]

. Black people and black criminals are not identical each other unless you think they are.

lol...

 

[samus i am]

I might be beating a dead horse but I believe that the OP's picture was purposefully inflammatory. When I google "african american teens" this is what I get:

 

[Opiate]

Goya, most of that research is very interesting. Despite the obviously decreased position of the Chicago school in economics after the recession, Heckman still remains very respectable and compelling (Lucas lost significantly more credibility than Heckman did, for example).

However, I see no rational explanation given by Heckman for the fact that Black females overperform. Presumably, black female children are given roughly equivalent upbringings to Black male children -- unless we can come up for a plausible explantion for why parents of black girls are consistently better / less likely to separate than parents of black boys.

That there is a gender disparity as well as a racial disparity suggests that there is more at work here than simply upbringing. I do not at all deny that upbrining plays an important role, and Heckman's analysis is strong evidence of that, but it is simultaneously evidence that many other important factors exist beyond "do you have two parents?"

 

[Londa]

Out of context much?

I was linking how slavery affects blacks today and you twist it to say that I think black people are actually dumber? OK.

Be mad at stats, don't be mad at me for explaining why I think the average is lower since you couldn't possibly think I think black people are dumb altogether unless you go off a comment about criminals. Black people and black criminals are not identical to each other unless you think they are.

You said something about all black people being considered dumb in slavery times and then you mention that kids that are put in white schools are still coming out dumb. You said this on this very page. Wow

 

[Takuan]

However, I see no rational explanation given by Heckman for the fact that Black females overperform. Presumably, black female children are given roughly equivalent upbringings to Black male children -- unless we can come up for a plausible explantion for why parents of black girls are consistently better / less likely to separate than parents of black boys.

This is just personal observation, but could it be that black women essentially have to succeed since they're so often left to raise children on their own?

 

[JGS]

This was a pretty good article regarding the higher arrests rates. I'm bolding the part that I've been saying although from what I can read, this is more sympathetic than I would ever be toward criminal arrests. Overall the article is pretty balanced. I'm adding my anecdotal stuff to make it clear that there is a very obvious reason that goes beyond a kneejerk reaction of racism to explain the arrest. With this article to pick apart, hopefully, I won't detract from the discussion solely on the basis of my differing view of black criminals bringing down the black community rather than being victims in it and we'll leave it at that.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/keith-rushing/the-reasons-why-so-many-b_b_883310.html

When we think of racial profiling, we generally think of a person of color, perhaps a Black or Latino man or woman, in a car who gets stopped by police based on skin color. Often, a minor traffic infraction, like failing to signal when changing lanes, provides the legal rationale for such stops, when in reality the stops are motivated by race.

Most Americans get why this is wrong. But the role that race plays in the criminal justice system goes far beyond this type of profiling.

On Sunday, the Washington Post featured an essay by two experts, Marc Mauer, executive director of The Sentencing Project, and David Cole, a Georgetown law professor, who in "Five Myths about Americans in Prison" examined the role of race in incarceration.

These men show that not only are people of color stopped more frequently by police, their communities, particularly with anti-drug efforts, receive far more attention from police. And black men are often charged and prosecuted differently than their White counterparts.

Mauer and Cole attempt to dispel the myth that there is a disproportionate number of Black people in prison because Black people commit more crimes.

They point out that although Whites and African Americans use and sell drugs at about the same rates, Black men in 2003 were almost 12 times as likely to go to prison as White men. Although Black people are 12 percent of the population and 14 percent of drug users, according to Mauer and Cole, they comprise 34 percent of those arrested for drug offenses and 45 percent of those incarcerated in state prisons for such offenses.

Both men attribute disparities in incarceration rates in part to the way urban Black communities are policed.

"Police find drugs where they look for them," they wrote. "Inner-city, open-air drug markets are easier to bust than those that operate out of suburban basements. And numerous studies show that minorities are stopped by police more often than Whites."

To understand the over-incarceration of black people, one must take a good hard look at all the ways black communities are policed. When I worked as a crime reporter for a daily newspaper in Newport News, Va., it was immediately obvious to me that the city's East End -- a low-income Black urban community -- was over-policed. Whenever I drove into the East End, it seemed that I couldn't drive more than a couple of blocks without encountering a police car. I could drive miles in another part of the city without running into an officer.

Once on a police ride-a-long, the officer I rode with pulled over a Black woman who had stopped along the double-yellow line to let her grandson out to attend an afterschool program.

The officer, a White male, slammed on the brakes, hopped out and asked for her drivers' license. When she complied, he ran the license through a crime database to see if she had any outstanding warrants.

When I asked the officer why he stopped the woman, he said that it was illegal to stop in the middle of the street to let someone out. I can't imagine that in one of the wealthier and Whiter areas of the city that an older White woman would be stopped and detained under similar circumstances.

The saturation of police in the East End helped me gain a better understanding of how low-income urban Black communities are policed.

To focus law enforcement efforts on one or two racial groups while limiting scrutiny and arrests of another is theoretically illegal -- a violation of the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection Clause and the Fifth Amendment's protection from abuse by government authority. But subjecting communities of color to differential treatment goes on every day despite those constitutional protections.

According to the Wall Street Journal, the New York Police Department's latest data from the first quarter of 2011 shows police still stop and frisk African Americans at far higher rates than they do Whites with their odious stop-and-frisk law. Some 50.6 percent of the 183,326 who were frisked were Black in the first three months of the year, although African Americans comprise just 23 percent of the city's population. Ironically, Whites are more likely to be found with illegal drugs or weapons than Blacks or Latinos.

Profiling is the starting place for this disparate treatment. Blacks and Latinos are also more likely to be charged, tried and convicted than their White counterparts for the same offenses. And money is perhaps the crucial factor in determining whether you get adequate legal help.

As a starting place to deal with this bias, the Rights Working Group is calling for passage of the End Racial Profiling Act and recommending that the Department of Justice Guidance Regarding the Use of Race by Federal Law Enforcement Agencies be made enforceable. To find out more, visit http://www.rightsworkinggroup.org.

This is just personal observation, but could it be that black women essentially have to succeed since they're so often left to raise children on their own?

Agree with this. They are the ones with the family. The man is often just the sperm donor. Nothing should motivate more than a desire to take care of family even if they didn't eceive the best training on it (Hence, the pregnancy out of wedlock).

It's funny and may not even be related, but I was having a conversation with a girl friend yesterday who was upset because her man works at Taco Bell. She thinks he needs a better job. I asked what he did prior and he was unemployed. So I ask is 8.50/hr really worse than nothing? The funny thing is she works 2 jobs and yet is implying that she would rather take care of him than for him to have a low wage job. Just seems odd to me.

 

[Blackace]

This is just personal observation, but could it be that black women essentially have to succeed since they're so often left to raise children on their own?

That is a complete reach right there..

also

Not being married is not equal to not having two parents raising a child..

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Yes, but the last slave was brought to North America almost 200 years ago. The last slave was freed from American bondage in the 1860s. I would say American apartheid has had a larger impact on modern Black Americans than slavery did. However, even at the height of Jim Crow, black incarceration rates, illegitimacy rates, and drop out rates were not as high as they are today.

Hell, in 1960 80% of black children were born in wedlock. Today is almost the reverse with 72% being born to unmarried black mothers. How can you blame slavery or Jim Crow for that?

What are you talking about? Jim Crow lead to the systematic deconstruction of the black family unit. How is momma gonna send her kids to college when the college won't accept "colored" people? How is dad suppose to make wealth that can be passed down to his children when all he is allowed to do is manual labor for less pay than a white man doing the same exact job would get.

And what happened to many black people that TRIED to lift themselves out of their situation during Jim Crow? Shit like THIS HAPPENED.

As far as the crime rates: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C55zE_qJd2g&feature=related

 

[Measley]

How can someone so willfully uneducated about the subject of the after effects of slavery/Jim Crow be placed in a position to mentor/teach Black children who carry those trickled down generational "bindings"?

He blatantly ignores everyone here that has given him reasons for how slavery/Jim Crow directly affects kids today.

Like 1964 was a hundred years ago.

There were all Black schools into the 1970s-- and it wasn't by choice.

LoL! I am well aware of the effects of Jim Crow and Slavery. However, I don't believe they are as widespread or long lasting as other posters here. I also don't believe the legacy of those events can explain the current problems in the black community, because some of these problems didn't exist during Jim Crow or after emancipation. The black illegitimacy rate is one example of a statistic that has gotten worse since the 1960s (and was one of the original pillars of this thread).