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[ryutaro's mama]

Consider that black immigrants grew up under completely different fucking circumstances. Did you just sleep through any humanities courses in regards to sociology or what? You have literally no concept of socialization, cultural constructs, privilege or institutionalized discrimination.

And he's the teacher.

 

[MWS Natural]

I'm not sure you understand his point. He's just simply saying all black people should strive to be like him, and if they aren't they are failures. It's simple really.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

In 2011, is it possible for a black male born into poverty to become a doctor in the United States?

Did you not read a word I said? I used a simple analogy to explain the more complicated notion of 'cultural capital'...

"In terms of education we are all running a 100m race, but the dominate culture gets to start 20m in front, some people just can't make up that ground..." (read, some can make up that ground).


Let me ask you this. You're a teacher, you know how the education system works, you know the sorts of things that are valued as part of (the dominant) societies construction of educational outcomes. I suspect you also earn a reasonable income, and will someday have kids. Will you not then teach your children about things that are valued by the educational institutions (schools/college), support them to the best of your ability to give them the tools that will help them achieve? You will of course do this, and your children will be given a 'head start' compared to those who have been brought up with no 'cultural capital' in relation to eduction or the funds to access certain educational tools. Right?

 

[Devolution]

Okay, let's keep being absurd and doing oppression olympics then.

So what about a disabled black child who can't speak English?

Or a disabled black child who can't speak English, is autistic, and has a gay black short rabbi father?

It's just beyond stupid, no one is trying to coddle anyone here, just admit the realities of the negative stigmas black people face. But oh no Measley is here to tell us we're making excuses for people.

 

[Londa]

Faded tattoos, black and milds, nappy corn rows, earrings with no chains and poorly thrown signs. These guys are under-performing at g'ing up.

I don't see any tattoos. Can you look through clothes or something?

 

[Measley]

Consider that black immigrants grew up under completely different fucking circumstances. Did you just sleep through any humanities courses in regards to sociology or what? You have literally no concept of socialization, cultural constructs, privilege or institutionalized discrimination.

Black immigrants attend the same public schools as Black Americans, and Black immigrants experience the same level of racism as Black Americans. What "privileges" do they enjoy that Black Americans don't have? A two parent home?

 

[crazy monkey]

I don't see any tattoos. Can you look through clothes or something?

look at hand

 

[Half and half]

I don't see any tattoos. Can you look through clothes or something?

Exactly! That's how faded they are.

Though I admit I could be wrong and that's just some scribbling on the hand of the right most dude.

 

[Devolution]

Black immigrants attend the same public schools as Black Americans, and Black immigrants experience the same level of racism as Black Americans. What "privileges" do they enjoy that Black Americans don't have? A two parent home?

First of all most of the black immigrants you keep touting I've mostly run into in college, not high school. So that means domestic blacks have had about 2 decades more of dealing with America's bullshit. And you're comparing them to people brought up amongst other black people? That haven't had to deal with the same kind of racism or social prejudice? Are you fucking kidding me?

 

[Bay Maximus]

No they don't. A child with a disability has the most hurdles. I would even argue that a child who can't speak english has more hurdles than an American born black child.

Consider that black immigrants come to this country and excel, even though they don't speak the language, and are largely indistinguishable from American blacks. The core difference is that they don't blame their personal failings on slavery or Jim Crow.

1) The first bold is you really trying to go around the issue. Surely you know what was meant. Throwing in a random factor and saying how bad it is doesn't take away from the fact that skin colour can help or hinder you professionally.

2.) The second bolded sentence is a bit odd to me. Many of the people you are responding to seem to be successful in their professional and scholastic endeavors (going by the other threads I've read), so I don't think anyone here is really using it to justify any "personal failings". Objectively, it's really hard to argue that laws and systems in place for centuries specifically designed to depress a people on economic, social and political levels just vanishes away without any lasting consequences though.

I agree that there is no excuse for failure though. If things are going to improve, it must start at home.

 

[Captain Sparrow]

Wrong.

My father isn't my ancestor...

And blacks are still recovering from slavery and it shows.. any fortune 500 black companys? How about blue chip stock black owned/started companys? We own nothing in the US.. It is getting better, but we still have a ways to go..

Let's take it a step further and go beyond America and it's slavery. They also own nothing worldwide except for a lot of disease, poverty, and violence. I hate to take this to a new level, but this is bad....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

 

[Londa]

look at hand

Oh...my..

 

[Purexed]

Loaded question, but I'll try and be brief.

I think the single biggest contributing factor holding black men back are themselves. The hood mentality featuring all the usual elements like self-hate, making kids they have no intention of fathering, marginalizing education, anti-establishment, etc etc. etc.

Yes, black people have had an unceremonious start to life here in the United States, but there comes a time that we (yes I'm black) need to look in the mirror and have a sense of personal responsibility to ensure we are educated, supporting our families, and being a constructive influence to our communities instead of being destructive. While there are systematic institutions and laws that disproportionately affect black men, we need to stop taking the cheese of looking for shortcuts to success. Slangin a dime bag, jacking someone, or running hustles are short term monetary solutions with long term consequences.

As a quick anecdote, I work as a Career Counselor for a school and I service students that are primarily people of color. When I offer job opportunities and internships to students and/or graduates, the sense of urgency and initiative is not there. For the ones that do wish to move forward, they expect me to write their resumes and cover letters without even giving a honest effort to do it themselves. When I point out a real world job expects you to handle your shit without being coddled, I catch shade and have at times been accused of being an Uncle Tom. This isn't a one off either, the tone of entitlement is ridiculous. I work in the field I do because I want to make a difference, but sometimes hearing shit like that makes me wonder why I should even bother.

This is just scratching the surface. I try and influence the younger ones I can that look up to me as an someone that "made it" and teach them values that will benefit them as young men. I look at my life where I went to schools in South Central LA and I believe the "secret" to my accomplishments was making sound choices on those crossroad moments. My dad was partially around as a cocaine addict, and seeing him in tough spots over the years really embedded a fear of failure that still drives me today.

What can be done? That's a whole other thread and an even longer response...

 

[Bay Maximus]

-snip-

Good Post and insight.

Who's that in your avatar?

 

[Measley]

Did you not read a word I said? I used a simple analogy to explain the more complicated notion of 'cultural capital'...

"In terms of education we are all running a 100m race, but the dominate culture gets to start 20m in front, some people just can't make up that ground..." (read, some can make up that ground).

I read everything you said. However you didn't answer my question.

Let me ask you this. You're a teacher, you know how the education system works, you know the sorts of things that are valued as part of (the dominant) societies construction of educational outcomes. I suspect you also earn a reasonable income, and will someday have kids. Will you not then teach your children about things that are valued by the educational institutions (schools/college), support them to the best of your ability to give them the tools that will help them achieve? You will of course do this, and your children will be given a 'head start' compared to those who have been brought up with no 'cultural capital' in relation to eduction or the funds to access certain educational tools. Right?

Of course. However, none of that has to do with slavery or Jim Crow, or any racism I experienced as a black person. Everything that I have achieved has to do with the correct decisions I made in my youth. Instead of running around with morons, I stayed in school. Instead of doing drugs, I got a job. Instead of getting a girl pregnant, I used protection and waited until I was married to have children.

My brother did the same thing. When he (barely) finished high school, he decided he was done with school, and ran the streets with his friends for about a year. When he was almost killed in a shootout, he got scared straight and decided to join the military. Now he's married, with children, and is making a good living in the air force.

Meanwhile, our friends and peers are on drugs, dead, or in prison. We didn't have any advantages that our friends didn't have. We just decided not to do the dumb shit they were doing. Its as simple as that.

 

[Big Baybee]

Good Post and insight.

Who's that in your avatar?

 

[Measley]

First of all most of the black immigrants you keep touting I've mostly run into in college, not high school. So that means domestic blacks have had about 2 decades more of dealing with America's bullshit. And you're comparing them to people brought up amongst other black people? That haven't had to deal with the same kind of racism or social prejudice? Are you fucking kidding me?

I teach in inner city schools. There are African immigrant children everywhere. Unlike the African American students, they actually want to be there, and view education as an opportunity, not a chore. This is on top of them experiencing discrimination from the white majority (since many of them are Muslim or have an accent) as well as Black Americans who dislike their encroachment in their neighborhoods. In other words, you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Devolution]

I teach in inner city schools. There are African immigrant children everywhere. Unlike the African American students, they actually want to be there, and view education as an opportunity, not a chore. This is on top of them experiencing discrimination from the white majority (since many of them are Muslim or have an accent) as well as Black Americans who dislike their encroachment in their neighborhoods. In other words, you have no idea what you're talking about.

In other words those kids come from different families and different cultures. Okay. Thanks for actually proving my point.

 

[Measley]

In other words those kids come from different families and different cultures. Okay. Thanks for actually proving my point.

They're still black. But yes I agree, they come from a different culture. A culture that doesn't blame an incident 150 years ago for present day problems, and doesn't reward the failures in their society more than the achievers.

 

[Devolution]

They're still black. But yes I agree, they come from a different culture. A culture that doesn't blame an incident 150 years ago for present day problems, and doesn't reward the failures in their society.

They're still black tells me nothing. They simply don't have the same experiences as those who have the baggage of generations. You think it's something that can easily be shrugged off. You like to minimize the impact of internalizing a cultural narrative. The question is why.

 

[Atrus]

Given immigrant successes from even worse positions economically, it stands to reason that the biggest issues are cultural ones.

Successes prioritize education, initiative and hard work. Those who understand that tend to do better than others.

 

[Measley]

1) The first bold is you really trying to go around the issue. Surely you know what was meant. Throwing in a random factor and saying how bad it is doesn't take away from the fact that skin colour can help or hinder you professionally.

1. Devolution was trying to say that blacks have more hurdles than any other group. I was correcting the error. And yes, skin color can help or hinder you. However, its never to the point where it can stop you from achieving your goals (if you have them).

2.) The second bolded sentence is a bit odd to me. Many of the people you are responding to seem to be successful in their professional and scholastic endeavors (going by the other threads I've read), so I don't think anyone here is really using it to justify any "personal failings". Objectively, it's really hard to argue that laws and systems in place for centuries specifically designed to depress a people on economic, social and political levels just vanishes away without any lasting consequences though.

I never said they didn't. However in the modern day, its hard to argue that slavery is the reason you sold crack to an undercover cop and ended up with a prison record. Its hard to argue that slavery is the reason your spreading your legs for an idiot who already has multiple kids that he's not taking care of. Its hard to argue that slavery is keeping you from going to school because you'd rather hang on the street corner with your friends.

I agree that there is no excuse for failure though. If things are going to improve, it must start at home.

I agree.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

Of course. However, none of that has to do with slavery or Jim Crow, or any racism I experienced as a black person. Everything that I have achieved has to do with the correct decisions I made in my youth. Instead of running around with morons, I stayed in school. Instead of doing drugs, I got a job. Instead of getting a girl pregnant, I used protection and waited until I was married to have children.

It has everything to do with these things that have impacted black society. So you admit that imparting your knowledge, wealth and other cultural understandings to your children will indeed help them get a 'head start' in the educational race, just as you were given a 'head start' by your parents and grandparents before you. How can you not acknowledge then that some people don't have this 'Cultural Capital', and that they are starting this 'race' (yes, this analogy again) at a point further back on the track. You inherited Cultural Capital from your parents and will in turn impart it to your children who will also benefit from the hard work that you put it, some minority groups don't have this luxury. We aren't arguing that hard work doesn't count or that some issues are a result of the individuals choices, but that years of socially damaging policies actually impact future generations, this isn't controversial, it's something that you should have learnt as part of your teaching degree.

 

[Nesotenso]

Haven't read the entirety of the thread but I do have a question for Measly. You seem to post a lot on threads dealing with African American men or women. Are you black person in the US yourself and speaking as someone who has grown up here ? Because from some of your posts it seems like you are from the UK.

 

[Measley]

They're still black tells me nothing. They simply don't have the same experiences as those who have the baggage of generations. You think it's something that can easily be shrugged off. You like to minimize the impact of internalizing a cultural narrative. The question is why.

I'm the descendant of slaves. My grandparents and stepfather experienced Jim Crow first hand. I've experienced racism at various points in my life.

Yes, its easy to shrug it off.

 

[Mumei]

You find them lacking in substance?

See, that's the problem right there.

Nobody in this thread is "blaming" anything directly on slavery. Nobody is saying that little Jerome who is skipping class right now made the conscious decision to do so specifically because of slavery. I know I'm taking a leap here by speaking for the posters in this thread whose opinions I generally agree with, but all that anyone has argued is that if you want to talk about the various reasons blacks under-perform in this country you can't completely remove the lasting social and economic effects of slavery from the discourse.

It's not that your perspective as an Asian-American is "unwanted" - you just can't use it to discredit the black experience in this country. Because, and I'm terribly sorry, the experiences don't compare. Like, at all. Being forcibly taken from your homeland, separated your family and culture and forced to live as slaves for hundreds of years, and then having to live with 100 years of legalized discrimination and gross injustices (lynched for attempting to vote, communities burned to the ground, etc) after that are experiences unique to the black narrative. You can't just sweep that under the rug because a few generations have gone by. To think that hundreds of years of racism and discrimination doesn't have long lasting affects that need to at least be acknowledged is woefully ignorant at best.

Too many people in this thread claim that they really want to explore this topic...you know, just don't talk about the hundreds of years of slavery....or the decades of Jim Crow. Because that has nothing to do with anything. We gave you your freedom so now you're on totally equal footing economically and socially, and whatever road blocks you imagine there being are your own damn fault.

Your comments remind me of a segment that Melissa Harris-Perry did while substituting for Rachel Maddow, in which she talked about some of the historical reasons for black people in the United States not having caught up (discrimination with regards to the GI Bill and the FHA being two of the big ones, with the War on Drugs continuing the trend of either neglectful or oppressive policies) economically.

I can't seem to remember how long ago it was (sometime this year, I think) and I can't seem to find it online right now.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Let's take it a step further and go beyond America and it's slavery. They also own nothing worldwide except for a lot of disease, poverty, and violence. I hate to take this to a new level, but this is bad....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

When is saying shit like this considered, ok?

Seriously?

 

[Devolution]

I'm the descendant of slaves. My grandparents and stepfather experienced Jim Crow first hand. I've experienced racism at various points in my life.

Yes, its easy to shrug it off.

For you. You are not the measuring stick. Sorry pal. And with that I'm done in here.

 

[cooljeanius]

damn, did the OP get banned because of this thread?

⌘-F-ing through this thread shows me that no one's answered this question yet, and I was wondering about it, too...

 

[Devolution]

⌘-F-ing through this thread shows me that no one's answered this question yet, and I was wondering about it, too...

OP got banned because of his comment here.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

I'm the descendant of slaves. My grandparents and stepfather experienced Jim Crow first hand. I've experienced racism at various points in my life.

Yes, its easy to shrug it off.

Once again, it's you projecting your experience onto others.

"Hey, I succeeded...if I can do it, so can you losers."

 

[Bazhard]

Stop fitting the stereotype.

Problem fucking solved. Don't speak broken ass english like some ignorant jackass, don't wear your pants down to your ankles.

Once again, it's you projecting your experience onto others.

"Hey, I succeeded...if I can do it, so can you losers."

Let's be real here, this is 2011, black people aren't forced to sit in the fucking back anymore yeah racism still lives boo hoo get the fuck over it, i have and so have millions of others.

Being black doesn't give you the excuse to act like a goddamn moron, living in the ghetto doesn't give you the excuse to sling drugs and join gangs, it's your life and it's what YOU make of it.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Stop fitting the stereotype.

Problem fucking solved. Don't speak broken ass english like some ignorant jackass, don't wear your pants down to your ankles.

Yep, you do those things and your problems are all solved.

Thanks, Bazhard.

Let's be real here, this is 2011, black people aren't forced to sit in the fucking back anymore yeah racism still lives boo hoo get the fuck over it, i have and so have millions of others.

Being black doesn't give you the excuse to act like a goddamn moron, living in the ghetto doesn't give you the excuse to sling drugs and join gangs, it's your life and it's what YOU make of it.

Oh wait he had another gem to mention?

Blacks don't have to sit in the back anymore?

Racism still exists but we should all just "get over it"?

AWESOME!

 

[Measley]

It has everything to do with these things that have impacted black society. So you admit that imparting your knowledge, wealth and other cultural understandings to your children will indeed help them get a 'head start' in the educational race, just as you were given a 'head start' by your parents and grandparents before you. How can you not acknowledge then that some people don't have this 'Cultural Capital', and that they are starting this 'race' (yes, this analogy again) at a point further back on the track. You inherited Cultural Capital from your parents and will in turn impart it to your children who will also benefit from the hard work that you put it, some minority groups don't have this luxury. We aren't arguing that hard work doesn't count or that some issues are a result of the individuals choices, but that years of socially damaging policies actually impact future generations, this isn't controversial, it's something that you should have learnt as part of your teaching degree.

I certainly did learn it as part of my teaching degree. However, what I'm seeing in the schools and streets now isn't a result of generations of slavery and discrimination. What I'm seeing is a degenerative culture that has completely taken hold on many urban black people.

I have no clue where it came from, but it didn't exist during Jim Crow, or immediately following the CRM of the 1960s.

 

[cooljeanius]

OP got banned because of his comment here.

Gosh, you just keep tabs on everything that goes on around here, don't you.

 

[Devolution]

Gosh, you just keep tabs on everything that goes on around here, don't you.

Totally. Nah I was in that thread and saw it as it happened.

 

[Kalnos]

He's a shit poster anyway.

 

[akira28]

Stop fitting the stereotype.

Problem fucking solved. Don't speak broken ass english like some ignorant jackass, don't wear your pants down to your ankles.


Let's be real here, this is 2011, black people aren't forced to sit in the fucking back anymore yeah racism still lives boo hoo get the fuck over it, i have and so have millions of others.

Being black doesn't give you the excuse to act like a goddamn moron, living in the ghetto doesn't give you the excuse to sling drugs and join gangs, it's your life and it's what YOU make of it.

Go get a job Jequan Jamal Jenkins.

What happens when the lessons of Civil Rights are lost to later generations? I guess we may find out. I was at a majority white private school in Bel Air and they still drilled this stuff into us back in the early 90s.

No one says being black is an excuse for anything. Or that slavery is an excsue. But if you examine the effects of slavery and racism, you begin to see that there's more to this than "lazy, shiftless negros". You're looking for excuses of perceived bad behavior or explanations of fact?

 

[Measley]

For you. You are not the measuring stick. Sorry pal. And with that I'm done in here.

Of course not. The measuring stick is that clown who just got out of prison and has 2 children he doesn't care about.

Its not his fault though. He can't help that slavery and Jim Crow forced him to act like a jackass.

 

[royalan]

Stop fitting the stereotype.

Problem fucking solved. Don't speak broken ass english like some ignorant jackass, don't wear your pants down to your ankles.


Let's be real here, this is 2011, black people aren't forced to sit in the fucking back anymore yeah racism still lives boo hoo get the fuck over it, i have and so have millions of others.

Being black doesn't give you the excuse to act like a goddamn moron, living in the ghetto doesn't give you the excuse to sling drugs and join gangs, it's your life and it's what YOU make of it.

Whew! I guess we can all go home now. This genius figured it out! I'll just pack up my broken ass english and be on my way.

Its not his fault though. He can't help that slavery and Jim Crow forced him to act like a jackass.

Why do you continue posting? People have addressed this exact point dozens of times already, and then you change the subject...only to come right back to this a few pages later.

 

[Devolution]

Whew! I guess we can all go home now. This genius figured it out! I'll just pack up my broken ass english and be on my way.

No need to actually discuss how years of discrimination have led to this. No causation what so ever. Just get the fuck over it dude.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Whew! I guess we can all go home now. This genius figured it out! I'll just pack up my broken ass english and be on my way.

Pull up your pants from your ankles too or it won't work!

 

[Measley]

Given immigrant successes from even worse positions economically, it stands to reason that the biggest issues are cultural ones.

Successes prioritize education, initiative and hard work. Those who understand that tend to do better than others.

Exactly.

Haven't read the entirety of the thread but I do have a question for Measly. You seem to post a lot on threads dealing with African American men or women. Are you black person in the US yourself and speaking as someone who has grown up here ? Because from some of your posts it seems like you are from the UK.

Yes. I was born in the Midwest, but my family comes from the South (Mississippi and Virginia).

 

[Bgamer90]

Stop fitting the stereotype.

Problem fucking solved. Don't speak broken ass english like some ignorant jackass, don't wear your pants down to your ankles.

Yeah since those are the only Blacks that have to face discrimination!

Let's be real here, this is 2011, black people aren't forced to sit in the fucking back anymore yeah racism still lives boo hoo get the fuck over it, i have and so have millions of others.

Being black doesn't give you the excuse to act like a goddamn moron, living in the ghetto doesn't give you the excuse to sling drugs and join gangs, it's your life and it's what YOU make of it.

I agree but at the same time please don't try to act like the problems being discussed in this thread affect only the ones that fit the stereotype. That's very shortsighted.

 

[akira28]

Of course not. The measuring stick is that clown who just got out of prison and has 2 children he doesn't care about.

Its not his fault though. He can't help that slavery and Jim Crow forced him to act like a jackass.

2/10 - blame people for their bad choices
4/10 - blame people and take action to prevent further default
6/10 - time to start wondering about those choices on offer and see if something else is wrong

Of course to you, the world is pretty simple in black and white, so you don't have to worry about any of that anyway. Not your job. Just keep passing and failing those kids, man.

 

[Horse Detective]

I was spanked (I'm white). No black friends or acquaintances ever used the word "spank", but "beat" or "hit". Also, they spoke of it as happening later on in childhood when spanking is not considered to be effective. I have a feeling many of them received harsher physical punishments than I ever did (though I did get the belt once or twice), and that it continued to go on even into their early teen years.

Social service threats put an end to that at a very early age

See? The government prevented serious mental trauma from interfering with my future self.
I'm glad I never had to feel like Henry Hill in Goodfellas after his father finds out he skipped school for a month.

 

[Dead Man]

No need to actually discuss how years of discrimination have led to this. No causation what so ever. Just get the fuck over it dude.

I think some people get frustrated because it seems there is lots of talk about how it got this way, but not a great deal on how to fix it.

 

[Horse Detective]

I think some people get frustrated because it seems there is lots of talk about how it got this way, but not a great deal on how to fix it.

When everyone currently over 60 in the southern states finally kicks the bucket, I think we will see real results! Don't you?

 

[royalan]

I think some people get frustrated because it seems there is lots of talk about how it got this way, but not a great deal on how to fix it.

Well, its kind of hard to start discussing solutions when people don't seem to want to actually dissect the problem. You have to consider the many factors that contribute to black people being where they are in society.

 

[akira28]

Solutions? Bootstraps. Church. Hard work. Stop actin ghetto. Stop with all the hippty hop. Stop having sex before marriage, and pull up ya damn pants! You want solutions?! I just gave you a list!


There is actually no shortage of solutions. People are constantly making suggestions and creating programs. But what is needed is for us to act upon them. No one wants to fund anything, or try anything. Those that do are too small scale to make a serious dent, and there are plenty of success stories walking around among us. There's a serious disconnect, when it takes commitment and yes cash to do things right. Not just spreading blame. But guess which one is easier, free, and fun?

Like charter and magnet schools. They were supposed to bring those improvements into the greater system. What actually happened? They're sapping resources from that greater school system as people try to establish them as an elite alternative. Let folks compete over lottery chances to get in even. That wasn't the original goal though. People have solutions, but what we don't have is follow up or follow through. And we have backsliders actively trying to take us back to 1950.