XANDER CAGE
Member
Well damn.
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Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
Well damn.
Well well well.
Okay, Im still team Demon Souls 2 regardless what anyone says
I have been since Umbasa, and I refuse to change.
SweetJohnnyCage
Member
There is a note somewhere, I want to say in the Hidden Village, saying that the fanatics are searching for a womb to bring about a Great One. Given the events of the hidden ending, I want to say that the Doll is the womb.
XANDER CAGE
Member
I don't think so - at that point, you -are- a great one.
Magic slugs, Umbasa (in the alpha anyway), and the relatively futuristic world not having souls arts are kinda pointing that direction though.
I'm pretty sure that Umbasa was removed because it was because they felt it was too on the nose. Anyone playing the game who had played Demon's Souls would know the connection immediately.
SweetJohnnyCage
Member
Yea that's a possibility. I just found it weird that you turn into a slug.
Patapwn
Member
Does anyone have a comprehensive list of evidence for a connection? Is there any at all?
I think Gascoigne says umbasa but that might just be a wink a players. I was wondering if we got something more concrete
My theory is like this:
-Yharnam and the Pthumerians came in contact with the great ones.
-Yharnam herself is surrogate to Mergo which explains her appearance with Mergo's Wet Nurse.
-Mergo and the Moon's presence is definitely related.
-Establishes the City of Yharnam which worships those Great ones.
-Somewhere inbetween all got lost.
-Byrgenwerth found the ruins underneath the city that was lost and tried to reestablish contact with the great ones.
-Byrgenwerth found the blood of the Great one have medicinal healing properties which establishes the Healing church.
-The Healing church upper echoleon, The Choir establish contact with Ebriettas with the Celestial Emissary as the middle man.
-Mensis probably came in contact with Mergo which lead to him to start The School of Mensis.
-School of Mensis continues contact with Mergo and conduct rituals in the unseen village kidnapping people for experiments, trying to seek paleblood.
-Iosefka maybe part of the School of Mensis because you can find her blood vial in the Nightmare of Mensis IIRC
-Master Willem of Byrgenwerth uses Rom the Spider to conceal any supernatural activities going on in the Unseen Village.
-Healing Church condemn Byrgenwerth and seal it off.
-Turns out Blood ministration have side effects which transform people to beast.
-Healing Church started the Hunters
-Gerhman and Ludwig were the first hunters.
-Gerhman probably encountered the Moon Presence in the Abandon Workshop which explains the hunter's dream refuge and the umbilical cord.
-Old Yharnarm was lost and sealed due to the beast epidemic.
-Oedon the formless great one impregnates Arianna.
-Paleblood is the Moon Presence, Transcend the hunt means to surpass, becoming something that can't be hunted.
Few things I don't get is:
-The person named Laurence who betrayed Willem and knows Gehrman.
-Gerhman relation to the Hunter's dream and the Moon Presence, his actions.
-The dreams and nightmares, how they work.
-Yharnam and the Pthumerians came in contact with the great ones.
-Yharnam herself is surrogate to Mergo which explains her appearance with Mergo's Wet Nurse.
-Mergo and the Moon's presence is definitely related.
-Establishes the City of Yharnam which worships those Great ones.
-Somewhere inbetween all got lost.
-Byrgenwerth found the ruins underneath the city that was lost and tried to reestablish contact with the great ones.
-Byrgenwerth found the blood of the Great one have medicinal healing properties which establishes the Healing church.
-The Healing church upper echoleon, The Choir establish contact with Ebriettas with the Celestial Emissary as the middle man.
-Mensis probably came in contact with Mergo which lead to him to start The School of Mensis.
-School of Mensis continues contact with Mergo and conduct rituals in the unseen village kidnapping people for experiments, trying to seek paleblood.
-Iosefka maybe part of the School of Mensis because you can find her blood vial in the Nightmare of Mensis IIRC
-Master Willem of Byrgenwerth uses Rom the Spider to conceal any supernatural activities going on in the Unseen Village.
-Healing Church condemn Byrgenwerth and seal it off.
-Turns out Blood ministration have side effects which transform people to beast.
-Healing Church started the Hunters
-Gerhman and Ludwig were the first hunters.
-Gerhman probably encountered the Moon Presence in the Abandon Workshop which explains the hunter's dream refuge and the umbilical cord.
-Old Yharnarm was lost and sealed due to the beast epidemic.
-Oedon the formless great one impregnates Arianna.
-Paleblood is the Moon Presence, Transcend the hunt means to surpass, becoming something that can't be hunted.
Few things I don't get is:
-The person named Laurence who betrayed Willem and knows Gehrman.
-Gerhman relation to the Hunter's dream and the Moon Presence, his actions.
-The dreams and nightmares, how they work.
Considering the connections between Dark Souls 1 and 2, I'm not above believing that the common terminology (Beast Soul, Doll Soul, The Great Ones, The Old Ones) may draw a better connection than magic slug item descriptions anyway. These words aren't simply here by accident or coincidence. Thematic? Definitely. More explicit connection? It's up your interpretation of the lore I suppose.
I'm inclined to believe that the world of Bloodborne takes place after one of the Demon's Souls endings, perhaps hundreds of years later. Soul Arts are gone and humanity has leaned toward science, technology, and blood ministration over magic and miracle healing. The only "magic" that exists is tied to the presence of the Great Ones, the same as how Soul Arts were tied to the presence of the Old One.
ThatChairMan
Member
Does anyone know which weapons are non-buffable? I'm sort of regretting upgrading the Rifle Spear now that I realize I can't use fire or bolt paper on it.
Edit: Wrong thread...
Edit: Wrong thread...
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
This is wrong. The hunters predate the healing church and arguably even the city of Yharnam. Also the tomb of the gods were never lost.
There is evidence that hunters predate the Healing Church and are not exclusive to Yharnham. Like the world of Lovecraft, I imagine the Great Ones have meddled in the affairs of men all over the world, but their presence is particularly strong in Yharnham.
Also, I believe there is a note in the game that indicates the School of Mensis is kidnapping people to try and birth the Nightmare Newborn. Their botched attempt results in the One Reborn, instead of the Moon Presence.
I recall reading another note that indicate Ebrietas is the result of a partial summon. I'm not sure the Celestial Emissary was a middle man there. I would imagine it was a diplomat of sorts sent by the Great Ones to live among the Choir once they established contact with the Great Ones.
I don't think there's evidence to support Master Willem was using Rom to conceal rituals. Seems more likely that was a direct machination of the Great Ones. Rom's corpse can be found in the lair of Ebrietas, where you can also find the Altar of Despair, which resurrects the fallen. This would suggest the Great Ones were trying to repair Rom, their "cloaking device."
I don't think there's any indication it was formless Odeon that impregnated Arianna. It could've been any number of Great Ones.
I'm curious about the identity of Mergo. The name "Mergo's Wet Nurse" suggests "wet nurse of a baby named Mergo," which could make it synonymous with the Moon Presence, if the Moon Presence is the baby birthed by the Pthumerian Queen. Alternatively, the Moon Presence could be the -father- of the baby. And yet another alternative is that the father is a Great One named Mergo, so "Mergo's Wet Nurse" really means "Wet Nurse working for the Great One Mergo."
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Yeah...not feeling the Demon's Souls "connections" i rather have BB lore being its own thing.
We can have it both ways since Bloodborne could be simply happening in a separate dimension as far as we know considering, you know, cosmic horror. All I'm saying is there are common elements that lend itself to an interpretation. It's not like I magicked it out of thin air or made it up. The text is all there.
Whats nice is that they could all fit in the same world if you wanted them to, but its not forced in any way and will never be acknowledged directly by From or the plot. Just nods and winks.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Except for Dark "WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE WOW PRETTY WEIRD RIGHT" Souls 2.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
Just started a new game and noticing you can hear the baby crying already, where you spawn
I won't pretend at attempting to connect ALL the Souls series because that would be impossible to me. Even though I think my own DS -> BB connection has some merit, I certainly don't believe in a unifying game series theory or something.
XANDER CAGE
Member
How much insight do you have?
GwyndolinCinder
Member
82 i have the yharnam stone aswell
Edit: if i stand still here it just starts crying , so creppy
SweetJohnnyCage
Member
How did you guys find out that the ghost bride woman is Yharnam?
I thought they were just sleeping.
I thought they were just sleeping.
I guess I don't see what's hard to believe about a medieval society interpreting beings beyond their limited understanding as "demons" that simply need to die because they are affecting the status of reality (Monumental). Certain side characters are more concerned with the welfare of the world than attempting to understand what they interpret as evil, others are murderers and schemers who wish to take advantage of a shattered world.
In keeping with a medieval tale, an outsider "chosen" hero rises to the call. He either becomes the next monumental or an heir to the demons. Either way, magic is likely lost in the process.
We jump forward to a 17th century/18th century type society where naive yet ambitious scientists, natural philosophers, and church polymaths attempt to understand and parlay with even higher mysterious forces that inhabit their world and...other places, which only confirms that are not only actually above their understanding but this pantheon are way beyond their realm of control. The knowledge of how insignificant their lives are in a now vast layered universe of unseen Great Ones drives them to madness. They make the very human mistake of grasping too far and pay for it, unlike their ancestors who dealt with a threat instead of attempting to experiment and play with it.
The connection follows a clear arc, which leads me to believe in it. Of course, I might be wrong or totally off-base. That's just how I see it.
In keeping with a medieval tale, an outsider "chosen" hero rises to the call. He either becomes the next monumental or an heir to the demons. Either way, magic is likely lost in the process.
We jump forward to a 17th century/18th century type society where naive yet ambitious scientists, natural philosophers, and church polymaths attempt to understand and parlay with even higher mysterious forces that inhabit their world and...other places, which only confirms that are not only actually above their understanding but this pantheon are way beyond their realm of control. The knowledge of how insignificant their lives are in a now vast layered universe of unseen Great Ones drives them to madness. They make the very human mistake of grasping too far and pay for it, unlike their ancestors who dealt with a threat instead of attempting to experiment and play with it.
The connection follows a clear arc, which leads me to believe in it. Of course, I might be wrong or totally off-base. That's just how I see it.
Gonna try and kill the doll since someone asked me to yesterday
edit: wrong thread, but watch it be relevant to this thread >.>
edit edit:
Okay, so she dies, falls over. However, you can still inspect her for level ups?
edit x3: Leave and come back and she comes back to life. Okay then.
edit: wrong thread, but watch it be relevant to this thread >.>
edit edit:
Okay, so she dies, falls over. However, you can still inspect her for level ups?
edit x3: Leave and come back and she comes back to life. Okay then.
TheNamelessOne
Member
I figured it was because "the hunt was over".
Also, I finished the game a few hours ago and there are some questions left unanswered.
The Mensis Cage, has anyone found anything only visible when wearing it? Like the Illusion Crown?
Also, there is a huge theme with impregnation and babies. I got the second ending and my immediate thought was that I was impregnated by the Moon Presence. But then I watched the third ending where you end up like a tentacle-baby. Can't really wrap my head around that.
Yharnam, Pthumerian Queen is the final boss of the Chalice Dungeons. The Chalice Dungeons, in turn, are the ancient ruins beneath the city.
You can see the boss fight here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me4FxaLhVMU
Question: In my attempts to reach the Abandoned Old Workshop, I fell many times (as I'm sure most people did). Upon hitting the bottom of the tower, and dying on impact, I would see a strange figure kneeling in front of a door, as though trying to get in (or get out, I suppose). The figure seems alive and the way I recall it seemed to be dressed in white. Anyone know what this figure is? To my knowledge there's no way to reach the bottom of that particular tower other than falling and dying on impact.
Captain N. Tenneal
Member
I recall surviving this fall and fighting a horned beast that threw fireballs at me.
TheNamelessOne
Member
Wait... Isn't the Hunter's Dream a never ending cycle until someone arrives that has eaten all three umbilical cords? In the second ending you quite clearly take Gehrman's place as the "guide" in the wheelchair for hunters to come. I figured he was the first and only hunter to make it as far as you have, with countless of other hunters falling short or accepting their fate by his scythe.
Also: Who is the guy leaning over you when you start a new character? I don't recall seeing him later in the game.
I figured he's a medic of the 'real' world.
Haven't beat the game yet, 6 bosses dead.
Can somebody tell me what is going on, why I'm there and what I'm supposed to do?
I have no idea.
I just look around and go to where ever u I can progress.
In Dark Souls, after an hour I knew I had to ring to bells, 1 up and 1 down below.
But here?
Can somebody tell me what is going on, why I'm there and what I'm supposed to do?
I have no idea.
I just look around and go to where ever u I can progress.
In Dark Souls, after an hour I knew I had to ring to bells, 1 up and 1 down below.
But here?
Primethius
Banned
Perhaps you should pay more attention?
Alternatively just read the beginning of this thread.
TheNamelessOne
Member
Yes. That seems quite clear to me at least since there is such a heavy theme of reproduction and the loss of a baby. This is what I'm speculating on that topic:
-The Queen of Yarnham has her gut ripped open and is quite obviously looking towards where the wet nurse is guarding an empty baby carriage.
-Somehow she lost the baby - how I'm not quite sure.
-The baby might be what you drop down in the pit in the tower of Mensis.
-Who is the father? One of the hunters? Gehrman?
-Are you the new father after defeating Gehrman?
I figure the Old Ones are rising because they need a new heir. This has been going on for a long time and is the reason why Yarnham is the way it is. After giving the Old Ones a new baby order is restored and they once again disappear for eons to come.
Eugh, don't remind me. Ham fisted fan service. The Lordvessel texture just being smashed up in the starting area was a slap in the face to subtlety.
I dunno, I thought it was neat. It's like the Metal Gear Solid 2 of the Souls series, in that it is as much about being a sequel as it is the pressure of making a sequel.
It's also somewhat reassuring to know that the the "curse" at the center of Dark Souls never gets solved in any capacity, and the world spirals out of control all around it. Any other entry in the series (Souls or Bloodborne) could be set in the same world at a different time/place since Lordran is now its own cursed pocket dimension.
XANDER CAGE
Member
lmao I forgot about that
I mostly just remember that NPC that just stands around basically going "gee this sure is different from Lordran"
He drops a rune (beast?). The key is dropping onto the super thin rails along the wall. I have no idea how to get to the door halfway down.
TheNamelessOne
Member
Drop straight down almost immediately to your left when entering from the outside. You see some ropes hanging over the edge where you should be aiming.
The door halfway down leads to the Abandoned Old Workshop, where you can get the Doll's outfit, one of the Umbilical Cords, and even a Small Hair Ornament, which you can give to the Doll as a gift. (A very touching moment, where she experiences joy)
From the top of the tower, I run across the wood planks to the other side, then drop off the left to the planks below. Then I believe I drop down to yet another one below that. Then I line myself up with the second column on the wall, opposite the end overlooking the doorway. I then run, and jump. If done right, you'll land right on the edge of the platform where the door is located, and survive.
I'm now intrigued to try to reach the beast at the bottom, however.
First time I went there I got down to the bottom. Didn't know about the entrance to the workshop halfway lol.
TheNamelessOne
Member
The moon symbolizes a woman's menstrual cycle. I guess. What it means when it's red you can probably figure out.
I've been thinking about the Dream and what it means a lot lately: When either Djura or Eileen kill you, they ask you, "Do you still dream, hunter?"
Do you still dream?
Indicating that all hunters have the dream, but some stop? I assume this must be what they mean since Eileen goes on to elaborate by taunting you as you die saying, "Say hello to the little doll for me."
Does that mean Eileen and Djura turned away from the dream for some reason?
At first I assumed, when I'd only heard Djura say this, that those that no longer dream have become beasts. I guess this could be true, since it's something they ask of hunters that have attacked them, especially in Eileen's case.
Something about that question still gnaws at me for some reason though: "Do you still dream, hunter?"
Also, because people keep talking about interpretations of this: I don't think everything in the game is a dream, just the Hunter's Dream and maybe Nightmare lands like Nightmare Frontier, ect. I tend to think the Nightmare Frontier is just an alien realm and the appellation Nightmare is just euphemism since the place is barking mad from a human perspective.
Something I've thought about is, if Yharnam is "real" and the Dream is in your character's head, then what is "actually happening" when you stop at a lamp and then "wake up" at another is something more like a fugue state or maybe somnambulism. Your character loses time while in the Dream while your body physically makes the journey to its destination without you. (Maybe that's why the loading screens take so long! Waka waka waka...) Something akin to what fast travel is like in games like Elder Scrolls, but literally a thing that is happening in the game world. You reach the lamp, your character blacks out, experiences the Dream and wakes up somewhere else. He must've walked. Must've. People can't teleport through dreams...can they?
Do you still dream?
Indicating that all hunters have the dream, but some stop? I assume this must be what they mean since Eileen goes on to elaborate by taunting you as you die saying, "Say hello to the little doll for me."
Does that mean Eileen and Djura turned away from the dream for some reason?
At first I assumed, when I'd only heard Djura say this, that those that no longer dream have become beasts. I guess this could be true, since it's something they ask of hunters that have attacked them, especially in Eileen's case.
Something about that question still gnaws at me for some reason though: "Do you still dream, hunter?"
Also, because people keep talking about interpretations of this: I don't think everything in the game is a dream, just the Hunter's Dream and maybe Nightmare lands like Nightmare Frontier, ect. I tend to think the Nightmare Frontier is just an alien realm and the appellation Nightmare is just euphemism since the place is barking mad from a human perspective.
Something I've thought about is, if Yharnam is "real" and the Dream is in your character's head, then what is "actually happening" when you stop at a lamp and then "wake up" at another is something more like a fugue state or maybe somnambulism. Your character loses time while in the Dream while your body physically makes the journey to its destination without you. (Maybe that's why the loading screens take so long! Waka waka waka...) Something akin to what fast travel is like in games like Elder Scrolls, but literally a thing that is happening in the game world. You reach the lamp, your character blacks out, experiences the Dream and wakes up somewhere else. He must've walked. Must've. People can't teleport through dreams...can they?