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[zennyzz]

And yet werewolves that are clearly not or never were hunters return to life again and again every time you return to where you last found them...

And yet there's a lot lore remarking on how the dream of hunters has to do with their unique abilities and there's a marked difference set upon hunters and those who are not hunters.

Enemies have respawned in series that have no good reason to. It's a staple of the franchise. Some, like the undead in dark souls do. But many others don't. Hell there are some generic enemies that don't respawn.

 

[pantsmith]

And yet there's a lot lore remarking on how the dream of hunters has to do with their unique abilities and there's a marked difference set upon hunters and those who are not hunters.

Enemies have respawned in series that have no good reason to. It's a staple of the franchise. Some, like the undead in dark souls do. But many others don't. Hell there are some generic enemies that don't respawn.

In Demons Souls, it was the fabric of reality being broken (and eaten by demons). In both Dark Souls, the flow of time is "distorted" thanks to all the fucked up shit people have done to the area.

Both games have a plausible reason for why enemies respawn, but also maybe dont respawn, given the state of the world. I would think a good interpretation of Bloodborne would also account for the same mechanisms.

Madness? Easy enough an explanation, though maybe not the best.

 

[Soulflarz]

In Demons Souls, it was the fabric of reality being broken (and eaten by demons). In both Dark Souls, the flow of time is "distorted" thanks to all the fucked up shit people have done to the area.

Both games have a plausible reason for why enemies respawn, given the state of the world. I would think a good interpretation of Bloodborne would also account for the same mechanisms.

Madness? Easy enough an explanation, though maybe not the best.

Youre in a dream seems to work too

 

[Coconut]

is that what bloodborne is in the game? a bloodborne disease, the one you're trying to find a cure for your hometown?

Sorta, there is nothing called 'Bloodborne' or 'a Bloodborne' in the game, but blood and disease are a concept that exists at the very basic level of the lore. Drop the home town stuff I don't think that was ever a thing in the game and that was just some type of speculation or a message got lost in translation.

 

[zennyzz]

In Demons Souls, it was the fabric of reality being broken (and eaten by demons). In both Dark Souls, the flow of time is "distorted" thanks to all the fucked up shit people have done to the area.

Both games have a plausible reason for why enemies respawn, given the state of the world. I would think a good interpretation of Bloodborne would also account for the same mechanisms.

Madness? Easy enough an explanation, though maybe not the best.

neither of those explanation handwave a number of points where they're totally thrown out. The flow of time doesn't change what actually happened to certain folks. They're not going through endless cycles of time recursions, you're occasionally glimpsing into the timelines of particular people. It doesn't suddenly make them not dead when they die and you've got to specifically invoke those things happening.

It seems rather disingenuous to try and tie everything into one particular narrative to aid a theory when there are direct story tied instances to the contrary.

 

[The Artisan]

Sorta, there is nothing called 'Bloodborne' or 'a Bloodborne' in the game, but blood and disease are a concept that exists at the very basic level of the lore. Drop the home town stuff I don't think that was ever a thing in the game and that was just some type of speculation or a message got lost in translation.

OK, well for as much as the story matters in this game... do you find a cure to the bloodborne at the end of the game?

 

[zennyzz]

OK, well for as much as the story matters in this game... do you find a cure to the bloodborne at the end of the game?

No.


You're a hunter. You hunt beasts, you don't save them.

 

[antisoulless]

Uh. So.. apart from that beginnning part where you are only with your hands. This game is not actually that difficult. Its like Rainbow Six Vegas on realistic or similar.

I played Demon Souls, Dark Souls and Dark souls 2 . But i played them all with a modified save file or a trainer. Maybe being accustomed to this engine gives me an advantage.
This is the first time I've attempted this kind of game without any cheats. And its honestly not that difficult. Its kind of fun to pick out people one by one from the crowds and take them apart. Sure you can die easily. But so does everyone else.

Honestly. I've died only a handful of times. And they were all trying to fisticuffs at the beginning and failing to realize i'm supposed to grab weapons from the stairs.

 

[Coconut]

OK, well for as much as the story matters in this game... do you find a cure to the bloodborne at the end of the game?

Now I don't know if you are trying to be funny or have a real question.

 

[Ophelion]

And yet there's a lot lore remarking on how the dream of hunters has to do with their unique abilities and there's a marked difference set upon hunters and those who are not hunters.

There is also a marked difference between Beasts and people who are not Beasts, but Beasts and Hunters share something in common: They resurrect. Unless, of course, they have transcended Beasthood and are becoming something closer to a Great One. Great Ones do not rise again...at least not in our world.

Or maybe your character just consumes bosses and other hunters more completely, they being closer to what you are becoming. Who knows.

Enemies have respawned in series that have no good reason to. It's a staple of the franchise. Some, like the undead in dark souls do. But many others don't. Hell there are some generic enemies that don't respawn.

No, come on, we can't use "it's just a game" to prop up our cockamamie theories or we're just pissing in the wind. The real answer is in most cases there is no answer, but that's not really in the spirit of a lore thread. So, if you want to try and make your theory fit all that facts, I'll play along and we'll see where this takes us. I'm not going to just ignore things that are true in the game, though.

 

[zennyzz]

There is also a marked difference between Beasts and people who are not Beasts, but Beasts and Hunters share something in common: They resurrect. Unless, of course, they have transcended Beasthood and are becoming something closer to a Great One. Great Ones do not rise again...at least not in our world.

Or maybe your character just consumes bosses and other hunters more completely, they being closer to what you are becoming. Who knows.

There are things that resurrect that are neither beast nor hunter. And likewise there are general beasts that never resurrect after you face them once. And they don't fall into the realm of so close to divine as to be fully consumed or completely killable.

It feels utterly ridiculous to assume lesser beings have free will to resurrect whenever while great beings do not. Not counting that many enemy types don't fall into the specification of Plague ridden and there are some who are plague ridden, but otherwise completely unnoticeable that don't revive at all.


You're free to believe that there's more to it. But I rather just chalk it up to a necessity of design than an utterly inconsistent background narrative

 

[pupcoffee]

What's the deal with the lecture hall?

 

[Zocano]

So this is something I noticed almost immediately during the fight with Martyr Logarius but completely forgot to bring it up here.

(literally the only good shot of the sword I could find with quick google search)

Look at his sword.

Take your pick.

 

[Ophelion]

There are things that resurrect that are neither beast nor hunter. And likewise there are general beasts that never resurrect after you face them once. And they don't fall into the realm of so close to divine as to be fully consumed or completely killable.

It feels utterly ridiculous to assume lesser beings have free will to resurrect whenever while great beings do not. Not counting that many enemy types don't fall into the specification of Plague ridden and there are some who are plague ridden, but otherwise completely unnoticeable that don't revive at all.

There's nothing in the game that resurrects that doesn't have the blood of beasts coursing through it's veins, I can guarantee you. Crows get it by eating the beast-tainted dead. Dogs get it by biting the infected during the hunt. Snakes and leeches are also biting the infected. So, everything gets it through biting a human, being once a human who drank the blood or being a star spawn of the Great Ones...whose legacy resulted in the blood causing the resurrections in the first place.

As a small note, I don't think free will has anything to do with it. Not any more than I will my antibodies to protect my body from infection, anyway.

I don't know why bosses don't resurrect in-lore. I knew why they did in Souls (because you physically took their soul, preventing resurrection in the form of the boss soul you got from each.) Perhaps they do, but not on earth. It does take incredibly complex summoning rituals to summon a Great One in the first place, after all. Perhaps in death, they are banished to the dark places beyond earth. They don't leave a body when they fall either, so maybe there is something to that. The fact of the matter is that, ridiculous or not, greater beings do not resurrect. That's a fact. I don't know why it's a fact, but it is one.

Or, oh, what about this? What if the lamps burn the incense that the beasts hate? Maybe the only thing keeping bosses from hopping right back up is that you set up a lamp where they fell. I mean, you almost never see enemies approach a lamp. They will if they think they can get you, but they never walk near them of their own accord. Maybe they're scared of them for some reason. Oh, oh! And people are always talking about how hunters smell a certain way! What if they smell like the incense? Aw, that's so cool I almost wish I wasn't so obviously wildly no prizing the fuck out of this.

 

[zennyzz]

.

none, cause his sword is serpentine?

 

[The Artisan]

No.


You're a hunter. You hunt beasts, you don't save them.

Right, I thought you were there also not just to hunt the beasts in your way but that you were looking for something.

Now I don't know if you are trying to be funny or have a real question.

I was asking a real question. I'm a n00b to all from software rpgs and the first thing I read about the plot of bloodborne was this:

The game takes place in a decrepit Gothic city called Yharnam, which is rumored to house a potent medical remedy. Over the years, many travelers journey to the city seeking the remedy to cure their afflictions; the player takes the role of one of these travelers. Upon arriving in the city, however, it is discovered that the city is plagued with an endemic illness that has transformed most of its citizens into bestial creatures. The player must navigate the streets of Yharnam and overcome its violently deranged inhabitants and horrifying monsters in order to survive.

bolded is what gave me the premise that the campaign would revolve largely around you trying to find a cure, for however much the story about it mattered.

I like games that are story driven. It's one of the reasons I'm excited to play persona 5 whenever that drops, as a newcomer to that series as well. So for however little the story counted in bloodborne, that was one of the things I most looked forward to playing the game but it's increasingly evident to me that it does not have much of a story at all.

 

[zennyzz]

There's nothing in the game that resurrects that doesn't have the blood of beasts coursing through it's veins, I can guarantee you. Crows get it by eating the beast-tainted dead. Dogs get it by biting the infected during the hunt. Snakes and leeches are also biting the infected. So, everything gets it through biting a human, being once a human who drank the blood or being a star spawn of the Great Ones...whose legacy resulted in the blood causing the resurrections in the first place.

I don't know why bosses don't resurrect in-lore. I knew why they did in Souls (because you physically took their soul, preventing resurrection in the form of the boss soul you got from each.) Perhaps they do, but not on earth. It does take incredibly complex summoning rituals to summon a Great One in the first place, after all. Perhaps in death, they are banished to the dark places beyond earth. They don't leave a body when they fall either, so maybe there is something to that.

The Kidnappers? The church clergy? Most enemies at Cainhurst?

That also doesn't explain things like certain plague beasts that die once and never respawn.

Or Darkbeast Paarl, Vicar Amelia, Cleric Beast and BSB.

Gilbert is a completely normal Beast infected, who's no hunter. You kill him once and he never respawns.

Also I remember you made note that respawning had to do with blood which is why normal folks don't. Which makes no sense because the blood tinge effect is inherent to Yharnam meaning that immortal affect should be prevalent in everyone who originates there and not just beasts.

Right, I thought you were there also not just to hunt the beasts in your way but that you were looking for something.
I was asking a real question. I'm a n00b to all from software rpgs and the first thing I read about the plot of bloodborne was this:
bolded is what gave me the premise that the campaign would revolve largely around you trying to find a cure, for however much the story about it mattered.

I like games that are story driven. It's one of the reasons I'm excited to play persona 5 whenever that drops, as a newcomer to that series as well. So for however little the story counted in bloodborne, that was one of the things I most looked forward to playing the game but it's increasingly evident to me that it does not have much of a story at all.

It most certainly does have a plot. It merely doesn't have the plot it leads you to believe it does.

 

[The Artisan]

It most certainly does have a plot. It merely doesn't have the plot it leads you to believe it does.

So then tell me more about the plot. That's what I'm most interested in here. What your hunter's goal is from all the slaughtering throughout yarnham... what it is supposed to amount to in the end.

 

[zennyzz]

So then tell me more about the plot. That's what I'm most interested in here. What your hunter's goal is from all the slaughtering throughout yarnham... what it is supposed to amount to in the end.

Literally the first post of the first page?

 

[The Artisan]

Literally the first post of the first page?

OK, my bad. I'll come back with more questions later.

 

[Soulflarz]

re: Demonbrant

Yeah, I noticed. And I think its too similar...hmm

 

[Ophelion]

The Kidnappers? The church clergy? Most enemies at Cainhurst?

Yep, as most things in this game, I'm willing to bet they've all been infused with the beast's blood. This place is obsessed with it.

That also doesn't explain things like certain plague beasts that die once and never respawn.

Or Darkbeast Paarl, Vicar Amelia, Cleric Beast and BSB.

See my above theory about the lamps and incense I edited in. I'm rather proud of that.

Gilbert is a completely normal Beast infected, who's no hunter. You kill him once and he never respawns.

Also I remember you made note that respawning had to do with blood which is why normal folks don't. Which makes no sense because the blood tinge effect is inherent to Yharnam meaning that immortal affect should be prevalent in everyone who originates there and not just beasts.

Gilbert's house is next to a lamp. If my theory on why bosses don't resurrect is true, that's why Gilbert doesn't rise again either, bless the poor sod.

As for normal people, they haven't been changed yet by the blood for whatever reason. Perhaps there is a infinitesimal fraction of the population that's immune to the blood's effects. No change means no resurrections.

 

[zennyzz]

Yep, as most things in this game, I'm willing to bet they've all been infused with the beast's blood. This place is obsessed with it.



See my above theory about the lamps and incense I edited in. I'm rather proud of that.



Gilbert's house is next to a lamp. If my theory on why bosses don't resurrect is true, that's why Gilbert doesn't rise again either, bless the poor sod.

As for normal people, they haven't been changed yet by the blood for whatever reason. Perhaps there is a infinitesimal fraction of the population that's immune to the blood's effects. No change means no resurrections.

I feel that's stretching so far that it's nearly collpasing in on itself to make that theory work in a lot of ways. Especially the whole immunity for the select few that would drive a huge wedge in that theory.

That's also not getting into the actual lore that in no way supports it. Or the world assets which include in no small part many countless very dead werewolves everywhere who've no sign of every getting back up.

 

[Ophelion]

I feel that's stretching so far that it's nearly collpasing in on itself to make that theory work in a lot of ways. Especially the whole immunity for the select few that would drive a huge wedge in that theory.

That's also not getting into the actual lore that in no way supports it. Or the world assets which include in no small part many countless very dead werewolves everywhere who've no sign of every getting back up.

You've never heard of people who are naturally immune to a disease?

The lore supports it fine. Great One tainted blood has restorative properties, that's where the beastly taint comes from and all the monsters with power beyond men either have it or are of the Great Ones themselves which is the same thing.

And maybe my memory is faulty, but I don't remember ever seeing a dead werewolf in the world I didn't put there myself (and then promptly got back up because they all resurrect. ;-p)

And the truth is this: there probably isn't an explanation that fits 100% of the facts, but I love to speculate.

 

[zennyzz]

You've never heard of people who are naturally immune to a disease?

You mean those same people who themselves include folks infected by the old ones for certain plot points?

You can't possibly see the issue there?

 

[Ophelion]

You mean those same people who themselves include folks infected by the old ones for certain plot points?

You can't possibly see the issue there?

Old Ones don't need all of us, they just want to procreate. Not everyone you have sex with gets pregnant either. In a town of hundreds, there's what? Eight? Eight people still uninfected. Maybe they haven't turned yet or maybe they can't turn, but either way the effects of the beast's blood haven't taken hold yet for some reason.

Edit: Haha, wtf are we even arguing about? You know what? You're right, I guess. Whatever. We're arguing down to the bone on a Fromsoft game. This is beyond stupid. It's so vague any of us could be right.

 

[zennyzz]

Old Ones don't need all of us, they just want to procreate. Not everyone you have sex with gets pregnant either. In a town of hundreds, there's what? Eight? Eight people still uninfected. Maybe they haven't turned yet or maybe they can't turn, but either way the effects of the beast's blood haven't taken hold yet for some reason.

And yet it's a disease that itself originates from beings beyond human comprehension, that have no issue with infecting any of the chosen people with their choice of whatever and yet we're to believe a rare few are immune to what's essentially impossible to be immune to? (Not counting that opting out of saving them has them descend into madness all the same just like everyone else.)


It's a stretch, one completely unsubstantiated. With numerous points to the contrary.

 

[Facism]

Micolash makes the comment that even in the dream hunters are still merely hunters. When you beat him he laments waking up as he'll forget everything he's learnt in the nightmare

 

[Darryl M R]

He isn't gone, you can find him in the area behind the house (with the messenger tree stump) where he stares into the void begging to be set free.

Is there a video of him "begging"?

 

[Kinsei]

Sorry I haven't read through the entire thread, but what's the current theories about the guy that gives you the tonsil stone? It's clear an Old One wanted you to visit the Lecture Hall and Nightmare Frontier, but for what purpose? Another thing I thought of is, was Amygdala in on it?

 

[Skatterd]

Now that that's out of the way, nothing you can say will convince me you don't become the infant version of the Old One from Demon's Souls in the end.

 

[Darryl M R]

I wonder if the story would be different if you refused to accept blood from people every time you are given the option. Even though you are current injected with it. From gives you the option to deny the blood or take it from the Whore and I believe it is the same with the Nun (when you first meet her).

 

[Kinsei]

I wonder if the story would be different if you refused to accept blood from people every time you are given the option. Even though you are current injected with it. From gives you the option to deny the blood or take it from the Whore and I believe it is the same with the Nun (when you first meet her).

I haven't taken any blood so I'll let you know.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

So did Hunters Dream remind anyone else of Ash Lake from Dark Souls?

I found the simularities rather... odd

 

[Zomba13]

So did Hunters Dream remind anyone else of Ash Lake from Dark Souls?

I found the simularities rather... odd

I thought that too when I first saw the place.

 

[Coconut]

Right, I thought you were there also not just to hunt the beasts in your way but that you were looking for something.
I was asking a real question. I'm a n00b to all from software rpgs and the first thing I read about the plot of bloodborne was this:
bolded is what gave me the premise that the campaign would revolve largely around you trying to find a cure, for however much the story about it mattered.

I like games that are story driven. It's one of the reasons I'm excited to play persona 5 whenever that drops, as a newcomer to that series as well. So for however little the story counted in bloodborne, that was one of the things I most looked forward to playing the game but it's increasingly evident to me that it does not have much of a story at all.

I mean there's a world being built and you sort of unravel the story as you progress but the story is all stuff you have to find.

 

[zennyzz]

So I came across something weird. While mucking about. I found out that The Doll has eyes on the inside of her eyes.

Much in the same was as one of the umbilical Cords, the workshop specifically.

That one in particular suggests that said umbilical cord connected Hunters with the pale moon and subsequently created the Hunter's Dream.

I'm wondering, could the doll possibly be made in the likeness of a woman that Gehrman or possibly his apprentice lost a love to childbirth, potentially one of the making as the other women. But then in their mad desire to regain the woman they lost, they used the umbilical cord to create a living replica of her but at the same time led to every hunter inadvertently becoming tied to the moon presence.


So The Doll maintains the dream and in contractual obligation, possibly out of love or feeling of responsibility. Gehrman is left to Shepard his kin who now are connected intrinsically to a specific Great Old One from whom they draw power.

 

[Soulflarz]

edit: I keep failing on threads

 

[Nothing1016]

Just beat the game and got the true ending. Did I basically do what the Healing Church was trying to do the entire time? Did My hunter become a "Great One"?

 

[Laughing Banana]

Man... choosing to play as a Female Hunter makes me feel kind of... I don't know, queasy, with all the Cosmic Horror impregnation going on... especially considering it seems like the Hunt's true purpose is to find a human strong enough to become the host of a new Great One? Urrghhhh.......................

 

[GorillaJu]

Man... choosing to play as a Female Hunter makes me feel kind of... I don't know, queasy, with all the Cosmic Horror impregnation going on... especially considering it seems like the Hunt's true purpose is to find a human strong enough to become the host of a new Great One? Urrghhhh.......................

Don't worry, you become a baby cthulu yourself, no need to worry about growing one in your belly.

 

[Zocano]

ENB's videos are slowly shining a light on all the more cryptic stuff that's hard to piece together. Which is quite nice. The answers are there, it's just hard to make sense of them, I suppose.

I'm mulling over the lore and what I enjoy and what I don't. The nature of the dream is weird to me since, as far as I could find, we don't get much on what the dream is and why it's there. Probably just a manifestation of the Great Ones.

On a side note, I miss the mysticism around The Maiden in Black ): Ultimate Waifu.

I adore that "meek character that is secretly the most powerful being in the universe" archetype.

 

[convo]

The answers are there, it's just hard to make sense of them, I suppose.

It has ALWAYS been this way. All the way back when people started doing it with Demon's,it was i minor thing i saw at first but ENB continued and elevated that tradition once Dark Souls released.

 

[AngryMoth]

The thing I would like the most to understand better is the nature of the dreams and nightmares, and their relationship with the real world

 

[B-Dex]

So after going through upper cathedral. I almost had to laugh thinking the healing church was founded to worship the blue balloon alien.

Then I broke the window etc etc the thought was hilarious to me though.

 

[GorillaJu]

The thing I would like the most to understand better is the nature of the dreams and nightmares, and their relationship with the real world

Indeed. When you kill the Moon Presence it says "Nightmare defeated" instead of "Prey Slaughtered." Very interesting.

 

[Mejilan]

And maybe my memory is faulty, but I don't remember ever seeing a dead werewolf in the world I didn't put there myself (and then promptly got back up because they all resurrect. ;-p)

First good example is the great bonfire way back in early Central Yharnam. The one with the townsfolk mobs, riflemen, and 1 hound. There's a dead werewolf literally burning on a stake in that bonfire. It's not alone throughout the game.

 

[AngryMoth]

Interesting bit of dialogue from gattling gun man if you befriend him.

Says something about how he used to dream and there is nothing more horrific than hunt.

Then "Go. You have all night to dream. Best make the most of it."

 

[StMeph]

Replaying through the beginning now on NG+, some of the notes are a little clearer.

The general sense that I am getting is that the game takes place within a communal dream, with additional paths to and from other dreams/nightmares, but because of the significance of dreams to communing with Elder Gods in the Lovecraft universe, the dream is still important and doesn't mean it's disposable. It's likely everyone in Yharnum experiences this on the Night of the Hunt.

The first vision we're granted after the man with bandaged eyes injects us with Yharnum blood is a werewolf emerging from a pool of blood, approaching, and then bursting into flames. After that, the Messengers come to claim you as a Hunter. The initial wolf may represent the inner human beast that's now corrupted with Yharnum's blood, and its approach is the sense of it taking over, which most fall victim to. But because you do not, you are fit to be a Hunter.

The game announces "Nightmare Ended" rather than "Prey Slaughtered" both for Mergo's Wet Nurse and Moon Presence kills, but Mergo's the normal/false result, while the Moon is the complete/true result. The other optional Celestial bosses are there for flavor and setting, and develop more about the Healing Church and other areas of Yharnum and its blood.

In the shortest route to the end, the only required bosses are Father Gascione; Vicar Amelia; Shadows of Yharnam; Rom, the Vacuous Spider; The One Reborn; Micolash, Host of the Nightmare; and Mergo's Wet Nurse. By only being exposed to the minimum amount of information through the game and not collecting enough Cords, it would seem that is sufficient to end the Night's Hunt. With your task complete, Gehrman offers to return you to reality, and refusal means the Moon keeps you in the dream world as his replacement. The Hunt is over either way, but the cycle is not broken.

To break/transcend the cycle, you have to collect the Cords and confront Paleblood. In the beginning in Iosefka's Clinic, the first thing the player encounters is a note that the only way to transcend the Hunt is to seek Paleblood. Much later, in the Lecture Hall (F2), there are two notes toward the end, with one being a simple "Three third cords," and the other being a note linking Paleblood to the Moon. By collecting the Cords and confronting the Moon, you ascend to godhood and end the Hunt.

 

[Coconut]

ENB's videos are slowly shining a light on all the more cryptic stuff that's hard to piece together. Which is quite nice. The answers are there, it's just hard to make sense of them, I suppose.

I'm mulling over the lore and what I enjoy and what I don't. The nature of the dream is weird to me since, as far as I could find, we don't get much on what the dream is and why it's there. Probably just a manifestation of the Great Ones.

On a side note, I miss the mysticism around The Maiden in Black ): Ultimate Waifu.

I adore that "meek character that is secretly the most powerful being in the universe" archetype.

Link please.