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[Airbus Jr]

Damn op was murdered..

Reapear on new name ! Rest in peace....you fought well Padawan....

 

[Fbh]

None of these things were said.

Your point 2 blames bluray for companies starting to sell "licenses" which has nothing to do with Bluray and more with companies pushing for digital media
Point 5. Again, you blame Blurays for a lowering demand on PC drives and claim companies lost money because they counted on bluray replacing DVD which never happened (though in terms of gaming physical media it DID replace DVD's). The thing is, in the overall market Bluray never replaced DVD because by that time the switch to digital media had already started, the sale of disc drives for PC's dropped not "because bluray" but because digital alternatives to disc started to get increasingly more popular.

As for the 4K thing...maybe you didn't. But you'll need to explain your point 7 to me.

 

[Vawn]

Man. I'm going to miss this guys nonsensical threads where he posts opinions or factually incorrect information as gospel and gets offended when called out on it.

 

[onQ123]

Your point 2 blames bluray for companies starting to sell "licenses" which has nothing to do with Bluray and more with companies pushing for digital media
Point 5. Again, you blame Blurays for a lowering demand on PC drives and claim companies lost money because they counted on bluray replacing DVD which never happened (though in terms of gaming physical media it DID replace DVD's). The thing is, in the overall market Bluray never replaced DVD because by that time the switch to digital media had already started, the sale of disc drives for PC's dropped not "because bluray" but because digital alternatives to disc started to get increasingly more popular.

As for the 4K thing...maybe you didn't. But you'll need to explain your point 7 to me.

 

[thelastword]

I remember that Rage had to change the games structure due to the DVD limit.
It also didn't help that they didn't make the HDD come as standard meaning games couldn't install. As a console the 360 was pretty barebones and that kept price low. It didn't even have wifi I remember. Everything was an add-on HDDVD, HDD, and Wifi.

So you really were limited by the disc and couldn't decompress to a HDD. This was both a blessing and a curse because the game ran off the disc at least. people complained about mandatory installs for the PS3. This however meant extreme asset pop-in on 360 open world games like GTA4 if you didn't install because of the seek/read rate.

The size limit didn't affect them though because MS had a parity clause meaning publishers couldn't include extra content on the PS3 blu-ray version of games so you often had multiplatform Blu-ray games that were only the size of a DVD anyway.

So few remember that's how it was. I wonder why? 360 was pretty barebones hardware-wise,it was basically the add-on machine....

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

Yeah, I'm aware of other issues like the funny architecture, it was like needless complexity for the sake of being its own thing...to this day it's hard to emulate PS3 lol. Thus why I say it may not have lost round 1 to 360. Keep in mind the PS3 was an insane price, and without the BR drive it could have been quite cheaper AND more plentiful, and nothing seems to motivate devs to figure out a system's unique problems like an install base spiraling, especially for the brand that won last gen.

Of course it's not that simple and we could talk what-ifs of history all day, but I do think the BR drive was a big enough deal to potentially affect the outcome.

There was a cheaper PS3 though, Sony just intentionally chose not to market it and only marketed the $599 version while Microsoft was saying 360 STARTING at $299, which was a smarter move.

Sony based on interviews and developer stories fully intended people to swarm on the PS3 with all it's fake 4D 120fps hype even WITH the high price and were expecting the complications of the PS3 to lock devs in like the PS2. Didn't end up happening because the 360 was really easy to develop fore and already had a base of support from the predecessor.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Some people just like being bitch slapped, I guess. Freedom Gate already got bitch slapped with his stupid pointless and factually incorrect posts and was thoroughly beaten down by the other members.

But yet he has come back for more....

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

I actually think the Blu Ray format has been more beneficial than detetimental, especially for game size increasing substantially. Now I must admit, I do not see a huge benefit in 4K Blu Ray which is much more expensive for slightly better picture quality, but that’s another topic. If it wasn’t blu ray, it would of been another format to take its place they could of been even more expensive or worst.

Load times are worst? Not sure. Do you remember the Sega CD and Neo Geo CD era? Load time was literally in the minutes at times and not just at the beginning of the game, but throughout the entire game.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

I actually think the Blu Ray format has been more beneficial than detetimental, especially for game size increasing substantially. Now I must admit, I do not see a huge benefit in 4K Blu Ray which is much more expensive for slightly better picture quality, but that’s another topic. If it wasn’t blu ray, it would of been another format to take its place they could of been even more expensive or worst.

Load times are worst? Not sure. Do you remember the Sega CD and Neo Geo CD era? Load time was literally in the minutes at times and not just at the beginning of the game, but throughout the entire game.

It's one of the many things he was just dead wrong on.

 

[Afro Republican]

I agree that HD DVD would have likely took over DVD or at least had a better chance of doing do than BR. I also Believe that "Blu-ray" was bad for games in the generation it was introduced because PS3 install times were bad and it was early.

But everything else I don't...

1. BR didn't start game DRM and Disc licensing. It started on PC and then both the 360 and PS3 eventually started seeing games supporting it at the same time. it has nothing to do with the format. The Format doesn't send a check to your machine and the machine scans to make sure you don't own your game. That's not how formats work.

2. Load times for games only got worse because PS3 was early tech but as you can see this gen load times are generally better. PSX load times were pretty bad on average.

3. Saying that failed PC attachments made CONSOLE game development costs rise is just wacky and requires more than the prescribed amount of shrooms. Yes, for companies that invested in THAT DEVICE they lost money, not everyone else. What???

4. Because companies distributed movies on BR that meant the movie industry costs went up? You do know DVD vastly out performed Blu-ray for years and years right? So more companies distributed on DVD than Blu Ray, so you're saying somehow some companies putting out SOME movies on BR rose the...

Ok, time for a drink.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

I agree that HD DVD would have likely took over DVD or at least had a better chance of doing do than BR. I also Believe that "Blu-ray" was bad for games in the generation it was introduced because PS3 install times were bad and it was early.

But everything else I don't...

1. BR didn't start game DRM and Disc licensing. It started on PC and then both the 360 and PS3 eventually started seeing games supporting it at the same time. it has nothing to do with the format. The Format doesn't send a check to your machine and the machine scans to make sure you don't own your game. That's not how formats work.

2. Load times for games only got worse because PS3 was early tech but as you can see this gen load times are generally better. PSX load times were pretty bad on average.

3. Saying that failed PC attachments made CONSOLE game development costs rise is just wacky and requires more than the prescribed amount of shrooms. Yes, for companies that invested in THAT DEVICE they lost money, not everyone else. What???

4. Because companies distributed movies on BR that meant the movie industry costs went up? You do know DVD vastly out performed Blu-ray for years and years right? So more companies distributed on DVD than Blu Ray, so you're saying somehow some companies putting out SOME movies on BR rose the...

Ok, time for a drink.

Blu-ray development costs are one of the key players for game development costing more since devs outsource cinematics and CG technology from companies that often work with the movie industry.

So when projects involving Blu-ray fail it shakes up both industries.

Projects like PC BR drives failing hurt the expansion of the format, which would lead to more support and lesser prices. This never happened. The new BR is 4k and that's still niche 4 years later despite 4K Tv's being more common so the costs will still be high.

Blu-ray has the ability to have DRM implemented into it and not running whats on the disc unless the machine is authorized. Making it so you no longer have the ability to own the actual product like you used to.

 

[A.Romero]

I like BR and it was a strong selling point for PS3 (at least for me). As a HT enthusiast I really didn't care if HD-DVD or BR won the format war, I just wanted to be over as quickly as possible as any purchase for either represented a risk.

I do physical almost exclusively for console and digital for PC. My last 2 or 3 builds have not had an optical drive, same as my latest laptop (3 years old).

For movies I go for subscription services but for certain items (like Game of Thrones seasons) I rather go BR. HBO Go is a very crappy service and the GoT BR's are pretty amazing in terms of sound (atmos) and PQ. HBO Go doesn't even support 5.1 (except for Apple TV I think).

I haven't jumped on 4K BR because it's too expensive for me.

Overall, I can't see a single point where BR represents a negative for anyone (gaming or movie biz) and I'm glad it exists.

 

[BlackTron]

Sony just intentionally chose not to market it and only marketed the $599 version while Microsoft was saying 360 STARTING at $299, which was a smarter move.

The PS3 was an insane price at launch regardless of whether it was the cheaper version.

 

[The_Mike]

You High?

It’s a typical thread from OP. Far away from reality as possible. It seems like he lives in an alternate universe where everything is reversed.

Like for an example, this thread.

 

[Dirk Benedict]

The PS3 was an insane price at launch regardless of whether it was the cheaper version.

It was cheaper than the strict Blu-Ray Players. I almost bit on one for 1k, luckily, I remembered the PS3 had it built in with all the bells and whistles.
So, I figured, if I was thinking of dropping 1k, I might as go all the way and buy another controller and a few games and upgrade my sound system.

Best decision of the generation. While I was initially disappointed with the PS3 library, seeing movies in full HD on a fully calibrated bravia XBR was something I'll never forget. Now, we have 4k, especially on the PC. I'm experiencing that moment all over again, soon it'll be permanent.

 

[BlackTron]

It was cheaper than the strict Blu-Ray Players. I almost bit on one for 1k, luckily, I remembered the PS3 had it built in with all the bells and whistles.
So, I figured, if I was thinking of dropping 1k, I might as go all the way and buy another controller and a few games and upgrade my sound system.

Best decision of the generation. While I was initially disappointed with the PS3 library, seeing movies in full HD on a fully calibrated bravia XBR was something I'll never forget. Now, we have 4k, especially on the PC. I'm experiencing that moment all over again, soon it'll be permanent.

PS3 was an excellent Blu-Ray player, absolutely. However, this didn't help nearly as much as DVD did for PS2. DVDs had achieved the "good enough" threshold where people were not clamoring to upgrade as with they had VHS to DVD.

BR was Sony's format. They wanted it to win, badly, and were willing to saddle down the PS3 as a trojan horse for the longer term money of winning the format war.

DVD helped PS2 succeed, but PS3 helped BR succeed.

 

[Chairman Tickles]

Streaming and faster internet access/downloads killed all disc based formats. And they ain't coming back. They will persist in the enthusiast market (eg 4k video discs) for audio and video-philes with sweet home cinema setups. But that's a tiny minority of the market, not enough to support new releases. Blu ray will go the way of laser disc.

Future consoles will rely on high speed flash carts and high speed internet access. HQ 4k or 8k Physical films will probably sold on flash carts too.

 

[louis89]

1. Blu-Ray started video game installs. No longer was it as simple as reading from the disc, parts of your game, or all of your game, had to be installed to the hard drive more and more.

How? PC games have been being installed since the floppy disk days, through to CDs and DVDs. What started video game installs is consoles having hard drives, and installation therefore becoming possible. And this is a good thing, because reading from a hard drive is much faster than reading from an optical disc. Remember PS1 loading times?

 

[Afro Republican]

the PS3 as a trojan horse for the longer term money of winning the format war.

Sadly for Sony neither actually happened.

However 4k BR is picking the format back up again. Only issue is the movies and the players that support it are still to expensive, they need to drop the price so they sell 1:1 with 4K tv adoption.

 

[theHFIC]

Blu-ray has the ability to have DRM implemented into it and not running whats on the disc unless the machine is authorized. Making it so you no longer have the ability to own the actual product like you used to.

DRM on BluRay is conceptually no different than what is on DVD's and even PS1 CD's. It will run on signed hardware, and the encryption keys for it can be cracked. This is why PS3 games are currently being emulated. Maybe not straight from disk at this time, but they can be ripped in the future where the consoles aren't accessible. AFAIK Nintendo Switch carts are the only ones with individual signatures on them.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

DRM on BluRay is conceptually no different than what is on DVD's and even PS1 CD's. It will run on signed hardware, and the encryption keys for it can be cracked. .

Yes, however BR was the first time their would be a relationship between the hardware and format for DRM. DRM can be triggered through the format to the hardware, or the hardware can scan the disc and sign on the disc adding DRM to it. For example, there was an exploit on some PS3 games that an update to the PS3 allowed the PS3 to write on the game so the exploits would be removed or scannable on disc so that the disc would either not have the exploit or not play at all when put in a different PS3 console.

 

[Afro Republican]

Yes, however BR was the first time their would be a relationship between the hardware and format for DRM. DRM can be triggered through the format to the hardware, or the hardware can scan the disc and sign on the disc adding DRM to it. For example, there was an exploit on some PS3 games that an update to the PS3 allowed the PS3 to write on the game so the exploits would be removed or scannable on disc so that the disc would either not have the exploit or not play at all when put in a different PS3 console.

"DRM can be triggered through the format to the hardware, or the hardware can scan the disc and sign on the disc adding DRM to it."

WHAT???

 

[Iorv3th]

Yes, however BR was the first time their would be a relationship between the hardware and format for DRM. DRM can be triggered through the format to the hardware, or the hardware can scan the disc and sign on the disc adding DRM to it. For example, there was an exploit on some PS3 games that an update to the PS3 allowed the PS3 to write on the game so the exploits would be removed or scannable on disc so that the disc would either not have the exploit or not play at all when put in a different PS3 console.

You are nuts or a terrible troll.

"DRM can be triggered through the format to the hardware, or the hardware can scan the disc and sign on the disc adding DRM to it."

WHAT???

He's nuts or a terrible troll.

 

[entremet]

BR doesn't matter anymore. Games are much bigger than most Blurays anyway. It's just a delivery system.

 

[Aenima]

BR doesn't matter anymore. Games are much bigger than most Blurays anyway. It's just a delivery system.

There are Blu Rays with more than 200GB capacity. But the current consoles only use dual layer Blu-Rays for a max of 50GB capacity. As long as you put a drive able to read large Blu-Rays you can still have games at 4K in only 1 disk next gen.

 

[jonnyp]

One of the most absurd OPs I've ever read.

 

[Knightime_X]

Well... we definitely need something better than blu-ray.
Blu-ray for what it's worth is now nothing more than installs only storage media.
We need something much faster and less install reliant.
Blu-ray is the reason I went mostly digital.

 

[ZywyPL]

Well... we definitely need something better than blu-ray.
Blu-ray for what it's worth is now nothing more than installs only storage media.
We need something much faster and less install reliant.
Blu-ray is the reason I went mostly digital.

Fully agree. PS3 started the partial installs due to slow BD, while X360 with its DVD was still a plug&play console. Then PS4/XB1 came out with even bigger BD and full installs are necessary now, and the games don't even fully fit on the discs... UHD seems like a good alternative, as it offers capacity of 50, 66, and even 128GB, with greater speeds than ordinary BD, but such drives and discs are expensive, plus - the latency still wouldn't allow to play games from the discs. So if you ask me, I'd love to get the games on an encrypted SD cards, as they offer 16/32/64/128GB, so the devs could choose appropriate size for their games, the read speeds are in hundreds MB/s, and the latency is close to zero. The cost of the cards is big I agree, but the card reader is cheap as hell, so the consoles could be whole 100$ cheaper.

 

[petran79]

Yes, however BR was the first time their would be a relationship between the hardware and format for DRM. DRM can be triggered through the format to the hardware, or the hardware can scan the disc and sign on the disc adding DRM to it. For example, there was an exploit on some PS3 games that an update to the PS3 allowed the PS3 to write on the game so the exploits would be removed or scannable on disc so that the disc would either not have the exploit or not play at all when put in a different PS3 console.

I only know that some encrypted BD movies can not be recorded if output is HDMI.

Also


On 30 May 2007, Canadian encryption vendor Certicom sued Sony alleging that AACS violated two of its patents, "Strengthened public key protocol"[40] and "Digital signatures on a Smartcard."[41] The patents were filed in 1999 and 2001 respectively, and in 2003 the National Security Agency paid $25 million for the right to use 26 of Certicom's patents, including the two that Sony is alleged to have infringed on.[42]

 

[lefty1117]

Physical media only ever has a limited shelf life before it's replaced by something better. Going all the way back to clay tablets, every form of information delivery has ultimately been replaced with something superior. When I was a kid I thought CDROMs were the end. Just as B.Gates thought 640k RAM was enough. Digital delivery is killing physical formats, and it's only a matter of time before the singularity is achieved and we are all walking around with chips in our heads. MS was a few years ahead of their time with the xbox one original vision, but based on trends they had the right idea.

 

[DiscoJer]

Meh. I bought Forza 7 on disc on Nov 29th. Thanks to my slow internet, the 36 gig patch finally finished installing this morning (the 19th of December).

On the plus side, I could actually play some of it before the whole thing downloaded. But still annoying.

 

[Afro Republican]

At least this thread bring up the HDDVD vs. BR war, as many people forgot about it or didn't know about it so it's a comedy, but historical comedy.

 

[cr0w]

This reminds me of that thread where the OP was insistent that the PS4 already had a 4k BR player in it, it just needed to be "unlocked" via a system update. That was a fun one.

 

[Nikana]

This reminds me of that thread where the OP was insistent that the PS4 already had a 4k BR player in it, it just needed to be "unlocked" via a system update. That was a fun one.

I think he said it was capable of 4k playback, like Netflix and YouTube, not that it had a 4k player. But I could be wrong

 

[cr0w]

I think he said it was capable of 4k playback, like Netflix and YouTube, not that it had a 4k player. But I could be wrong

Nah he was insistent that the drive was capable of playing UHD discs, they just didn't enable the feature and a future software update would enable it.

 

[NickFire]

Freedom Gate Co. , do you work for Engadget by any chance?

 

[mckmas8808]

Meh. I bought Forza 7 on disc on Nov 29th. Thanks to my slow internet, the 36 gig patch finally finished installing this morning (the 19th of December).

On the plus side, I could actually play some of it before the whole thing downloaded. But still annoying.

A fact of life that the "digital only" people will never understand or even care about.

 

[Nikana]

Nah he was insistent that the drive was capable of playing UHD discs, they just didn't enable the feature and a future software update would enable it.

Yeah that's nuts lol.

 

[Afro Republican]

Counter-response: "CD's have been detrimental to the gaming industry."

"See, CD's are some of the worst formats in gaming here are the reasons:

1. CD's still use laserdisc lasers, which increase lag in latency and drop the megabits level during the transfer rate.

2. Due to using Laserdisc lasers, polygons have to be rendered at double processing. meaning games could push 2x more polygons than they should have if it were an actual CD-laser. This also leading to games on consoles like PSX looking very sharp instead of clean.

3. CD's require DRM to activate during data transfer from the Disc to storage, this is why some games take up more memory card slots than others.

4. Using CD audio when Mpeg was available hurt the sound industry as the CD's still had to use 70 channels from the console soundchip since the hardware couldn't play real recorded audio. Only immitate it. This led to an increase in price that led to the Music Industry crash and the move from CD's to Cassette until 2003.

5. Most multi-disc games could have been on one CD, but due to the codecs that boot the disc from hardware to start reading, the OS already takes up to a 3rd of the discs storage in real-time, this flaw makes it so that for many games you need multiple discs."

I don't think I did it as well as the OP, but I think did a good job.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

I only know that some encrypted BD movies can not be recorded if output is HDMI.

Also


On 30 May 2007, Canadian encryption vendor Certicom sued Sony alleging that AACS violated two of its patents, "Strengthened public key protocol"[40] and "Digital signatures on a Smartcard."[41] The patents were filed in 1999 and 2001 respectively, and in 2003 the National Security Agency paid $25 million for the right to use 26 of Certicom's patents, including the two that Sony is alleged to have infringed on.[42]

If you put a BR disc in a PC and use a program that allows you to view the filed inside, you can see in the security files that there are areas that can be "activated" by some sort of command from certified hardware. BR is built DRM-ready.

 

[baphomet]

If you put a BR disc in a PC and use a program that allows you to view the filed inside, you can see in the security files that there are areas that can be "activated" by some sort of command from certified hardware. BR is built DRM-ready.

Not how it works.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

Not how it works.

It's literally in the disc after you run the BR bios menu:

It literally has a find DRM command.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

Freedom Gate Co. , do you work for Engadget by any chance?

Ahh, the IGN of tech reviews.

 

[Wag]

10yrs from now:

Holographic storage has been detrimental to the Video game Industry.

 

[MilkyJoe]

1.Game installs?

You serious, Clarke?

 

[theclaw135]

It's called forced installs for a reason. They do not allow you the choice to put up with the bad load times.

 

[DeepEnigma]

1.Game installs?

You serious, Clarke?

I for one want slow-ass disc streaming, more loading screens, and extra moving mechanical parts for potential breaking!

 

[CatLady]

I might put him up there with thelastword now. They must be competing for campaigner of the year.

No, please no. Can you imagine a thread with the 2 of them debating the console warz? It would be longer than War and Peace.

 

[ProgenitorCastle]

When you look at the many interviews and books, it was clear that Blu-ray only won the war due to the bribing of two big holdouts, one being FOX, and it convinced many to line-up behind that flag. But HD-DVD losing the war was not only devastating for media in general, but for video games as well.

HD-DVD was the superior format in almost every way and every way it wasn't could be solved with an update, including size. The only one thing that SOME argue is a pure advantage was the covering on Blu-ray discs, damage protection wise. But otherwise HD-DVD was faster, more relatable to DVD, cheaper, and was interactive compatible. The latter of which Blu-Ray had limited features for.

But here's why Blu-ray was detrimental to the video game industry specifically, especially on the consumer end:

1. Blu-Ray started video game installs. No longer was it as simple as reading from the disc, parts of your game, or all of your game, had to be installed to the hard drive more and more.

2. Blu-Ray is responsible for the fast and complete eradication of owning the video games you brought. Blu-Ray was great for DRM and other features that made it easier to use the DISC more as an authentication measure than a physical product. Which moved the industry to buying "licenses" instead of Consumers owning games. Once those few court cases settled things changed for the worst.

3. Blu-Ray discs were slow to drop in price as well as the technology running them. This kept the prices of consoles that use it, and the games, from dropping in price. Analysts show that games could have been $50 new and with quicker price drops due to the lower prices of HD-DVD in 2009.

4. Load times for games got worse instead of better. Especially since early Blu-Ray lasers were not very stable under extreme use.

5. Blu-Ray never really took off after the "war" ended. DVD handily smacked it around. Pushes for PC blu-ray drives cratered, Blu-Ray Laser for scanning and media transfer equipment also faltered. This aided not only point #3, but also caused game development prices to rise. Some people forget how much money some third-party devs like THQ, Square, etc spend on game development tools to take advantage of Blu-ray capabilities. The fact that it wasn't replacing DVD and many plans were scrapped that would increase demand, made it so that the prices of these tools also never really dropped. In fact over time it INCREASED.

6. 4K Blu-Ray offered very few fixes to many fixable problems. The only thing 4KBR was designed for was an increase in resolution and asset compatibility. The BR council did not think that their new revision should have included fixes, even though Panasonic had partnered with 4 other board members to discuss fixes. Nothing ever came of those meetings, no one even leaked what the final result was. But whatever it was, it led to 4K Blu-Ray basically having all the same issues.

7. Lastly, Blu-Ray has caused the rise in 4K asset creation for CG due to rising costs and the fact many movie and game studios distribute primarily on Blu-Ray. This mean that pretty much every industry employing CG in their products and uses BR as the main distribution platform are fighting off rising costs. This is why you're starting to see more outsourcing for cutscenes and other assets that would originally be done in house. Contractors however are asking for more money due to rising prices, and eventually everything is going to collapse into itself as we already have reached and passed the point of un-sustainability

Due to trying to make profit due to rising costs, and trying to keep contracts in check, most attempts to replace BR with another format has failed. I take it next gen will still be Blu-ray with more rising costs. In hindsight Blu-Ray was one of the biggest mistakes. But especially for video games, and how fast it changed things.

Thanks for this informative OP OP, that sucks...here I thought Blu Ray wasn't a problem but apparently it is...*sighs*

 

[cartman414]

Blu-ray development costs are one of the key players for game development costing more since devs outsource cinematics and CG technology from companies that often work with the movie industry.

So when projects involving Blu-ray fail it shakes up both industries.

Projects like PC BR drives failing hurt the expansion of the format, which would lead to more support and lesser prices. This never happened. The new BR is 4k and that's still niche 4 years later despite 4K Tv's being more common so the costs will still be high.

Blu-ray has the ability to have DRM implemented into it and not running whats on the disc unless the machine is authorized. Making it so you no longer have the ability to own the actual product like you used to.

It was HD assets, not Blu-ray. Games were becoming bigger and bigger one way or another with the dawn of HD in the PS360 era.