Boehner: Nation on the path to default if Obama doesn't give concessions for ACA
- Thread starter TacticalFox88
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Of course he's scared. He's terrified that he's about to lose his comfy position where he doesn't have to do anything buy circumvent democracy.
But it is not the case now and that is why "printing" money is not causing inflation.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
The U.S. debt has not "spiraled out of control". It is a large number, but relative to the size of our economy, it's pretty standard for a modern industrialized nation.
The things on which that many was spent are much more appalling.
The things on which that many was spent are much more appalling.
He's scared because it's a no win situation for him. If it passes, he'll have some GOP members in an uproar. If it doesn't pass, it'll turn the tide against the GOP even more. We have to suffer because he doesn't want to lose face. His speakership is pretty much dead anyaway, might as well go for it, if he has any compassion at all.
This is why we need computers in charge. I welcome skynet.
Fenderputty
Banned
You still haven't explained the difference between the two as far as money supply and how just the creation of a dollar will cause inflation but "borrowing" one wouldn't.
Wyndstryker
Member
Some people may vote for the Matrix instead. Even picking which computer will be in charge will be a challenge.
Liberty4all
Banned
Keep in mind that vocal GAF on these issues are for the most part as liberal as you can get .... not saying that as a bad thing, it's just how it is.
I said it in another thread but I wish that Conservative/Republican GAF would speak up. The assertions that the Republicans and Tea Party members are "morons/idiots/traitors" etc comes from one point of view, rarely (never) do we hear an articulate defence of Republicans. Based on that New York Times Article I linked a few pages earlier the people that have whipped the Republican party into radicalism are most definitely not stupid (intelligence wise), and have both millions of dollars and millions of supporters for their "cause" (the number I hear thrown around is about 35 to 40 percent of the country). They also have arguments that why they are doing what they are doing is right/just/legal/necessary, etc.
Really, the quandary the United States faces right now are two factions that are bitterly opposed to each other's ideological ideals ... that bitterness is being driven in a BIG way by demographics. I'm honestly not sure these ideological ideals can be reconciled .... I think it's going to get alot worse before it gets better.
I'm not saying the Republicans/Tea Party folks are right ... I'm actually leaning towards the "They are crazy" camp. With that said, there isn't really anyone offering an opposing point of view here on GAF (out of fear no doubt of being screamed down/piled on).
Are there political discussion sites/forums that will give a balanced perspective, arguments from both Democratic and Republican points of views? It would be interesting to learn more about they "why" behind what they are doing ... from the perspective of somebody committed to that cause.
I said it in another thread but I wish that Conservative/Republican GAF would speak up. The assertions that the Republicans and Tea Party members are "morons/idiots/traitors" etc comes from one point of view, rarely (never) do we hear an articulate defence of Republicans. Based on that New York Times Article I linked a few pages earlier the people that have whipped the Republican party into radicalism are most definitely not stupid (intelligence wise), and have both millions of dollars and millions of supporters for their "cause" (the number I hear thrown around is about 35 to 40 percent of the country). They also have arguments that why they are doing what they are doing is right/just/legal/necessary, etc.
Really, the quandary the United States faces right now are two factions that are bitterly opposed to each other's ideological ideals ... that bitterness is being driven in a BIG way by demographics. I'm honestly not sure these ideological ideals can be reconciled .... I think it's going to get alot worse before it gets better.
I'm not saying the Republicans/Tea Party folks are right ... I'm actually leaning towards the "They are crazy" camp. With that said, there isn't really anyone offering an opposing point of view here on GAF (out of fear no doubt of being screamed down/piled on).
Are there political discussion sites/forums that will give a balanced perspective, arguments from both Democratic and Republican points of views? It would be interesting to learn more about they "why" behind what they are doing ... from the perspective of somebody committed to that cause.
Muppet of a Man
Member
This is what theocracy and blind faith can do to a country [sic: see Republicans, Tea Party]. It's ironic because, even though this faction is the minority, they can essentially "suicide mission" the economy, as it seems they are doing since they are hellbent on anarchistic-conservative libertarianism anyway.
CharlieDigital
Banned
No. No. No. No.
The problem is that the right has moved so far to the right, that a center-right president like Obama becomes some sort of beacon of liberalism.
He is anything but. He didn't push for single-payer. Taxes have not been raised significantly. He has more or less continued Bush's policy as far as national security and, in some cases, even pushed the prior administrations policies to the limits (ex. domestic spying, drone attacks). He even kept much of Bush's appointments in place like Bernanke and Robert Gates.
Even his signature domestic bill - ACA - is a ripoff of Republican ideas from the last two decades.
Obama is a center-right Republican; it's just that the Tea Party has moved the right soooo far to the right, that folks that used to be Republicans are now "liberals".
Look at guys like Jon Huntsman - I would totally vote for this dude. In the current Republican party, he might as well be a radical leftist.
I think there are lots of GAFfers -- nay, Americans -- who don't view themselves as Left or Right but "anti-stupid". Put me in that camp.
While I agree with you in theory, the problem is that no matter how you look at it, no matter what your ideological beliefs are, this is legal extortion. You want to argue about the ACA, fine. You want to argue about the deficit, fine. You don't use an economic suicide mission that brings everyone with you to accomplish your goals though.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
If even you believe the people driving the house into this legislative jack-knife are "crazy," then maybe that IS "the balanced perspective?"
As pointed out earlier in the thread - giving air to "balanced viewpoints" solely for the sake of saying you have a "Balanced viewpoint" to offer isn't necessarily a positive, and in fact can be shown to promoting negative behavior, because it allows for people to continue doing legitimately harmful things because now it's considered "unfair" to say as such unless there's someone there to advocate for it.
Liberty4all
Banned
That's mostly a fair assessment. As a Canadian, our "right wing" party the Conservatives would be considered far to the left Democrats in the States, so I get what you are saying about where the US falls overall on the political spectrum.
I still think though that GAF falls much further to the left on most issues than even the average Democrat?
Boom Boom Pow
Banned
oh don't worry, most of Gaf does. If most of Gaf runs a country, here's what would happen:
1) free immigration for everyone and anyone. No questions ask. Come one come all, come as many as you need. don't worry about overloading the infrastructure and social services.
2) everyone makes $30 an hour, and the top 10% should be taxed 80% of their wealth.
3) every government secret would be revealed. every intelligence. EVERYTHING. there's no such thing as sensitive issue.
of course i exaggerate, but Gaf is definitely far far left leaning than what some of them would like to admit
Yup. Its more false equivalence. This board in general is definitely not "as far to the left as you can get", and the notion that the "far left" is represented in congress is ludicrous. It may come off as condescending to the Right but it's true- reality has a "liberal bias", because what's generally considered liberal in this country is basically center. I mean shit can you imagine what the Democratic party would be like if they were truly as far left as the Republican party is far right? We would have a congress overrun with commies. That is certainly not what we have, but the False Equivalence Brigade would have you think otherwise.
Wowfunhappy
Member
Anyone willing to try playing devil's advocate for a bit?
Similarly to climate change, when you actually go off of facts rather than Fox News BS, I'm honestly not sure if there IS another side, or at least one that couldn't EASILY be refuted by factual arguments.
Point: The republicans are refusing to fund the government or raise the debt celling unless Obama and the democrats agree to delay, repeal, or otherwise modify a bill that was passed into law many years ago.
Point: If the democrats agree, it will set a precedent that will effectively doom our entire democratic system into perpetual gridlock forever.
Point: When considered as a percentage of GDP, the amount of US debt is neither unprecedented nor unusual. Furthermore, history has shown time and time again that cutting back on spending during periods of economic slowdown (of which this is still one) has terribly negative effects on the overall economy.
Can anyone refute these points? By all means, please try.
I honestly hate the idea that, in any type of debate or argument, one side is completely right and the other completely wrong. It just isn't how the world usually functions. There is true "good" and "evil", only layers of gray.
And yet, in political debates like this, I'm just completely unable to see the other side.
Liberty4all
Banned
Honestly that argument shuts down all discussion. Both sides think they have balanced viewpoints from an ideological perspective. The "Crazies" on the right don't think they are crazy and gerrymandering aside you don't get 35 - 40 percent voter support unless a significant amount of people agree with your views. I just have no clue what their arguments are aside from generalized "debt is bad".
I think that at best, all participating Republicans should be censured. At worst, they should be expelled. In using the debt ceiling as a tool in their attempt to receive at concessions, they are violating their oath of office and section four of the fourteeth amendment of the constitution.
This is why there should be an independent or non-partisan board that oversees penalizing congress critters.
This is why there should be an independent or non-partisan board that oversees penalizing congress critters.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I don't believe so. There's still plenty of discussion to be had, as can be evidenced by the thread.
The absence of answers to questions that you're asking doesn't necessarily mean that people just don't want to talk about them, or that the people who would want to talk about them are being silenced by an unfair majority on the forum. Maybe it's more that THERE ARE NO ANSWERS, not that people are being prevented from giving them to you.
I think the reason why there isn't an effective opposition viewpoint is twofold. First that the moneyed special interests you referenced who are whipping the Republican party into radicalism do so to cover for their own intent which I doubt any political candidate could win by outright espousing: the deliberate intent to undermine and subvert American democratic system to continue to be remade in favor of corporate feudalism. Second, the increasing radicalism required to divert from that has simply become a largely untenable position to defend other than on a purely irrational level, thus we increasingly get Onion-esque soundbites, such as the likes of Stutzman saying, "We're not going to be disrespected, We have to get something out of this. And I don't know what that even is."
Shake Appeal
Member
The reasonable, well-articulated Republican position (cf. https://twitter.com/robertcostaNRO) on all of this is that the shutdown should never have been allowed to happen, that Boehner should allow the House to vote on a clean CR, that the Republican party needs to accept its electoral defeat in 2012 and reform itself rather than resorting to self-destructive hostage tactics, and that refusing to raise the debt ceiling is unconscionable.
In short, the reasonable, well-articulated Republican position, as well as the "balanced" perspective, is more or less identical to the Democratic point of view, and indeed the actually liberal/leftist point of view. It's just couched more carefully, stresses that Harry Reid and the Democratic Party are also being unreasonable in not just throwing the maniacs a bone, and features fewer expletives.
Republicans already won the budget fight, by the way. The budget the Senate passed is very nearly at the levels of the fucking Paul Ryan budget:
The lunatics are just too busy snatching defeat from the jaws of victory to care.
Sanky Panky
Banned
Is history useful to any of us at all? mint a trillion dollar coin, and we will see.
Coriolanus
Banned
perfectchaos007
Member
We should print a 20 trillion dollar bill. What's our national debt at now, 18 trillion? It would be good to have a couple trillion left over to spend on a few things for ourselves.
This question is precisely as vague as your chart.
piratesvstemperaturegraph.jpg
Maybe you could try relevant history next time and show us a country in a liquidity trap that had their currency destroyed by printing more of it.
Ok.
Fenderputty
Banned
The coin wouldn't be "debt" and it wouldn't hit circulation.
TacticalFox88
Banned
UltraMagnanimous
Member
That's a horrible graph.
Why does the y axis start at 950?
Vestal
Junior Member
did he seriously just make the argument that congress does not have standing in regards to increasing the borrowing power of the fed???
If this gets any traction.
popcorn.gif.
That's not how that works though.
perfectchaos007
Member
So the coin would be imaginary?
This is on top of the fact that there is already a proper mechanism in place already for repealing bills. The Tea Party is simply unable to play by the rules, and they're willing to topple the entire country because of it.
CNN posted a story that the White House is signaling possible opening on debt ceiling. I read the article and don't understand where they see any conciliatory laugauge. It sounds like the same position. It's like they are jumping up and down because it was mentioned.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/07/politics/shutdown-showdown/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/07/politics/shutdown-showdown/index.html
It's like I wrote this. Agreed. Same camp.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
If this gets any traction, we're screwed. Just as I thought the Tea Party couldn't get more crazy, they had to go and prove me wrong.
RustyNails
Member
Cnn is shit like that. They will blurt out the headline but link to an older article. After some time they will modify the older article with new details. I dont know how they came up with this.
Sanky Panky
Banned
You mean like Germany in the 1920's?
You're doing it right now D':
This issue does not have two equitable sides. The fact that you've gotten the impressive that it does points to a severe failing on the part of the Fourth Estate to adequately inform viewers, instead seeking what makes the most interesting and contentious storyline as though this were a primetime drama.
The "two sides" in this issue are logic and (functional if not ideal) expediency on one, and petulant, threatening lunacy on the other.
The "why" behind what side two is doing was summed up by Rep. Martin Stutzman as naught more than an unknown variable. Side one isn't doing anything at all.
Did you read that whole sentence?
Exaggerate?
Also,
4) Any service provided by a medical professional is free (you actually get paid to see your Dr), and hospitals and Dr's are run/employed by the government and make minimum wage/are not for profit.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
So desperate to get Obama out of office (even though it makes no logical sense at this point) that they will throw the country under the bus in order to save it.
Sanky Panky
Banned
Yes.
So why did you offer an example that doesn't satisfy the details of the request?
LOL JK
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