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[EatinOlives]

Not only do both sides want it, its a requirement for our government to function.

Its not optional.

Exactly.

"Do this for me, government, and you continue to breathe". That's not a negotiation, it's an outright threat.

 

[JCizzle]

I should say he's unwilling to discuss any kind of compromise. Say "you want this delay, OK but you gotta give this up in exchange". Hell he can make his demands just as unreasonable if necessary. I honestly don't care who caves first I just want this stupid game of chicken to end so we can get on with our lives.

You know what's a negotiation? Saying: let's delay Obamacare in exchange for this gun control bill. You know what's not a negotiation point? Holding the American economy hostage by not doing your job unless you get something. There is no concession from the gop, so why exactly should the President of the United States waste his time talking to them?

 

[Riki]

Well thanks for the info. You've given me a bit of research to do, and some thinking.

That is the hope.
People that scream both sides are the same clearly aren't paying attention here. And that is worrying.

 

[TacticalFox88]

I can understand the media's POV and reasoning for having false equivalencies, but what the FUCK at American people as a whole having false equivalencies despite RIDICULOUS amount of BLATANT evidence to the contrary?

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Plus, it's tough to defend the position that the GOP is being even remotely reasonable when you've got Boehner's press secretary sending out what pretty much amounts to a ransom note(just posted this in the Community thread):

John Boehner's press secretary, Michael Steel, just sent out a link to this Bloomberg article predicting catastrophic fallout from a US debt default with this message attached: "Folks - This really, really sounds like something Washington Democrats ought to talk to somebody about avoiding. Maybe that's just me. - steel"

 

[Riki]

I can understand the media's POV and reasoning for having false equivalencies, but what the FUCK at American people as a whole having false equivalencies despite RIDICULOUS amount of BLATANT evidence to the contrary?

It's easier to blame everyone and stay uninformed.
That's basically it.


Instead of researching the facts, no matter how simple it is, is just too much work for the Average American.

And that is exactly what the Tea Party counts on. It's disgusting and depressing.

 

[maquiladora]

Of course the debt ceiling must be raised, like it or not, the alternative is unthinkable. But Obama must be kicking himself over this...

 

[Trey]

Of course the debt ceiling must be raised, like it or not, the alternative is unthinkable. But Obama must be kicking himself over this...

Hardly. Nobody cares.

 

[kehs]

Of course the debt ceiling must be raised, like it or not, the alternative is unthinkable. But Obama must be kicking himself over this...

Obama: "I think that it's important to understand the vantage point of a senator versus the vantage point of a president. When you're a senator, traditionally what's happened is, this is always a lousy vote. Nobody likes to be tagged as having increased the debt limit - for the United States by a trillion dollars. As president, you start realizing, you know what, we, we can't play around with this stuff. This is the full faith and credit of the United States. And so that was just an example of a new senator making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country. And I'm the first one to acknowledge it."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...regrets-2006-vote-against-raising-debt-limit/

 

[Particle Physicist]

Obama is not even willing to talk to the GOP. I'd call that just as unhelpful as their unreasonable demands.

Huh? http://www.voanews.com/content/whit...aders-to-discuss-ending-shutdown/1761176.html

 

[cchum]

Plus, it's tough to defend the position that the GOP is being even remotely reasonable when you've got Boehner's press secretary sending out what pretty much amounts to a ransom note(just posted this in the Community thread):

John Boehner's press secretary, Michael Steel, just sent out a link to this Bloomberg article predicting catastrophic fallout from a US debt default with this message attached: "Folks - This really, really sounds like something Washington Democrats ought to talk to somebody about avoiding. Maybe that's just me. - steel"

We started this crisis, but those damn democrats need to do something or we'll run this country into the ground.

 

[Riki]

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...regrets-2006-vote-against-raising-debt-limit/

Yup. Opinions drastically change when you become President and you actually see how things work.
Heck, even without that, opinions can drastically change in the course of 7 years!

We started this crisis, but those damn democrats need to do something or we'll run this country into the ground.

"Those Democrats better stop us before we do something really crazy!"
They're like a Batman villain.

 

[reilo]

I should say he's unwilling to discuss any kind of compromise. Say "you want this delay, OK but you gotta give this up in exchange". Hell he can make his demands just as unreasonable if necessary. I honestly don't care who caves first I just want this stupid game of chicken to end so we can get on with our lives.

There's only one correct way to end this shutdown, and it doesn't involve the democrats and Obama "compromising".

 

[Fornaximus]

I can't even read this shit anymore. I've run out of cringe. These worthless bastards need a different job. Some menial task that has no impact on anything else outside of their immediate surroundings.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...regrets-2006-vote-against-raising-debt-limit/

I will never for the life of me understand why flip-floping, with an articulate reason as to why the change, is a bad thing to many people.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I see you're being piled on, so I'll try to be nice here.

Generally in a compromise, one side gives up something in exchange for the other side also giving up something. Both sides trade off things that they want until they reach a point somewhere in the middle that satisfices both sides' preferences.

In this case, both sides (barring a few crazies) want the government to keep running and both sides want the debt ceiling raised. One side has simply chosen to demand a few completely unrelated concessions in exchange for doing something that both sides want, because they think they can probably get away with it due to other side's fear of the negative consequences of shutting down the government or defaulting on the debt.

Here's a way to think about a potential compromise:
The Republicans, after some negotiation, get a half-year delay to Obamacare.
The Democrats get... ?

(If the answer that immediately comes to mind is "they get a CR and a debt ceiling raise," please recall that these are things that both sides already acknowledge that they want)

You should add that the clean CR bill that Democrats voted for and passed in the Senate was already a huge compromise on their part, bringing spending levels way lower than what they wanted.

 

[Riki]

I will never for the life of me understand why flip-floping, with an articulate reason as to why the change, is a bad thing to many people.

Changing your opinion should be encouraged with politicians, in fact!
The problem comes when it happens within the same day and more than once. Something we saw far too much of in the last few elections.
People gain wisdom and knowledge with new experiences. And that is a good thing.
However, when you try and play both sides at the same time, that is when people distrust you.

 

[RustyNails]

At this point, Republicans in Congress are Scooby Doo villains. There is not even a shred of pretense left.

 

[perfectchaos007]

I think a lot of the Republicans want to pass the ACA, if not only to end the shutdown, but can't due to their personal interests ie job security. We all know how important a voting record is, and an opponent in re-election will use anything you did outside of party lines against you. No republican wants "voting in favor of Obamacare" to be used as ammo for their opponent. It's politics and posturing for re-election. Can't blame them, they know how tough it is to get another job in this economy.

 

[Riki]

I think a lot of the Republicans want to pass the ACA, if not only to end the shutdown, but can't due to their personal interests ie job security. We all know how important a voting record is, and an opponent in re-election will use anything you did outside of party lines against you. No republican wants "voting in favor of Obamacare" to be used as ammo for their opponent. It's politics and posturing for re-election. Can't blame them, they know how tough it is to get another job in this economy.

Again, this could all be solved with computers running everything.
Picture it, gleaming towers of metal as far as the eye can see. It's magnificent.

 

[Cyan]

I think a lot of the Republicans want to pass the ACA, if not only to end the shutdown, but can't due to their personal interests ie job security. We all know how important a voting record is, and an opponent in re-election will use anything you did outside of party lines against you. No republican wants "voting in favor of Obamacare" to be used as ammo for their opponent. It's politics and posturing for re-election. Can't blame them, they know how tough it is to get another job in this economy.

There's no more voting to do on the ACA, Mr. Paul. It's already been passed, and it's been vetted by the Supremes. A vote for a clean CR is a vote to keep the government functioning, not a vote for Obamacare.

There's no more voting to do on the ACA! It's the law of the land.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

The precedence here is simple: If Dems cave, Repubs prove that they can threaten with ANYTHING, and get what they want. The House has an unbelievable amount of power here, but thankfully it's a double edged sword at least (i.e. they continue with default, they'll be completely blamed for it).

 

[RDreamer]

I think a lot of the Republicans want to pass the ACA, if not only to end the shutdown, but can't due to their personal interests ie job security. We all know how important a voting record is, and an opponent in re-election will use anything you did outside of party lines against you. No republican wants "voting in favor of Obamacare" to be used as ammo for their opponent. It's politics and posturing for re-election. Can't blame them, they know how tough it is to get another job in this economy.

That's why shit like adhering to the Hastert rule is so dangerous. Republicans that are against the ACA could vote no or whatever if this shit was put up to a vote. There'd be enough support for a lot of these hangups among democrats and a scattered few moderate republicans. The problem comes up when Boehner won't bring it to a vote at all. When you follow the rule that you have to get a majority of the majority to vote for it, then you pretty much pigeonhole any legislation into being hardline. The hardcore nutters get to run things, then.

But yeah, as Cyan said they're not even voting for the ACA anymore. They're just voting for a clean CR. Or should be, anyway.

 

[cchum]

"Those Democrats better stop us before we do something really crazy!"
They're like a Batman villain.

Batman villains are liberals fault too.
Them damn libruls dun did it.

“And now there’s discussion out there as to whether or not this was purposeful and whether or not it will influence voters. It’s going to have a lot of people. This movie, the audience is going to be huge. A lot of people are going to see the movie, and it’s a lot of brain-dead people, entertaining the pop-culture crowd. And they’re going to hear ‘Bane’ in the movie and they’re going to associate ‘Bain’ and the thought is that when they start paying attention to the campaign later in the year and Obama and the Democrats keep talking about Bain — not Bain Capital — Romney and Bain that these people will think back to the bad man.”

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/...in-bane-could-be-conspiracy-to-defeat-romney/

 

[maquiladora]

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...regrets-2006-vote-against-raising-debt-limit/

Oh I know, but it has been and will continue to be used by the GOP as showing a "flip flop" etc. Gives them extra ammo in the PR war directly from his own record.

I still don't think the GOP will commit political suicide in allowing a default to happen, I just think Obama must be regretting that more than ever right now.

 

[Riki]

Batman villains are liberals fault too.
Them damn libruls dun did it.

“And now there’s discussion out there as to whether or not this was purposeful and whether or not it will influence voters. It’s going to have a lot of people. This movie, the audience is going to be huge. A lot of people are going to see the movie, and it’s a lot of brain-dead people, entertaining the pop-culture crowd. And they’re going to hear ‘Bane’ in the movie and they’re going to associate ‘Bain’ and the thought is that when they start paying attention to the campaign later in the year and Obama and the Democrats keep talking about Bain — not Bain Capital — Romney and Bain that these people will think back to the bad man.”

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/...in-bane-could-be-conspiracy-to-defeat-romney/

This was an actual TAS episode. Kind of.

Oh I know, but it has been and will continue to be used by the GOP as showing a "flip flop" etc. Gives them extra ammo in the PR war directly from his own record.

I still don't think the GOP will commit political suicide in allowing a default to happen, I just think Obama must be regretting that more than ever right now.

Something he said in 2006 is likely the furthest thing from his mind right now, honestly.

 

[Somnid]

I think a lot of the Republicans want to pass the ACA, if not only to end the shutdown, but can't due to their personal interests ie job security. We all know how important a voting record is, and an opponent in re-election will use anything you did outside of party lines against you. No republican wants "voting in favor of Obamacare" to be used as ammo for their opponent. It's politics and posturing for re-election. Can't blame them, they know how tough it is to get another job in this economy.

More like a lot of Republicans want to pass a clean CR but Boehner won't even allow a vote to take place. They have the votes to pass right now but Boehner is trying his damndest to please his Tea Party masters and pretend there isn't enough.

 

[Black Mamba]

Speaker John Boehner may be trying to finalize a debt-limit plan, but House conservatives are already skeptical of his efforts. In interviews, several of them tell me they’re unlikely to support any deal that may emerge.

“They may try to throw the kitchen sink at the debt limit, but I don’t think our conference will be amenable for settling for a collection of things after we’ve fought so hard,” says Representative Scott Garrett (R., N.J.). “If it doesn’t have a full delay or defund of Obamacare, I know I and many others will not be able to support whatever the leadership proposes. If it’s just a repeal of the medical-device tax, or chained CPI, that won’t be enough.”

Representative Paul Broun (R., Ga.) agrees, and says Boehner risks an internal rebellion if he decides to broker a compromise. “America is going to be destroyed by Obamacare, so whatever deal is put together must at least reschedule the implementation of Obamacare,” he says. “This law is going to destroy America and everything in America, and we need to stop it.”

“Stay the course, don’t give in on it, that’s what the people in my district are saying,” says Representative Ted Yoho (R., Fla.). “We did a town hall the other day, and 74 percent of people said, ‘don’t raise the debt ceiling.’”

“I think you’d see at least 50 to 60 Republicans break with Boehner if he went for something small,” predicts a House GOP aide who works closely with conservative members. “They’re also reluctant to even give Boehner a short-term debt limit extension unless he gets something big in return. But that’s the one area where Boehner may have room to maneuver. He could tell them, ‘I’m with you fighting, but let’s just extend the fight a few weeks.’”

“Look, I would have to see it, but we’re at a place where we’re stronger than I thought we’d be, so I hope we stand strong,” adds Representative Steve King (R., Iowa), when I mention Boehner’s push for a bargain. “We’ve passed the witching hour, so the dynamics have changed, and we shouldn’t turn around. I think Boehner’s in a good position, and it’s important we keep up that unity.”

Meanwhile, House GOP centrists are increasingly nervous that the right flank may end up overly influencing Boehner’s next move. “A big deal would be great, but we’ll have to wait and see,” says Representative Jim Gerlach (R., Pa.). “We’re trying to talk to [the conservative wing] about the impact shutdown has in suburban, moderate, and competitive districts like mine, and I hope they listen. But Ted Cruz sold them this line, and they’ve run with it.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/360598/conservatives-wary-deal-robert-costa

Republicans telling Boehner: Obama must surrender or there's no deal.

but but but why won't Obama negotiate!?

 

[Pyrokai]

What's to prevent this from happening every time they need to fund the government? Why isn't there something to prevent this and why is it just now happening 225 years after the country's founding?

Did people say stuff like "it's going to destroy America" when social security passed?

 

[Riki]

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/360598/conservatives-wary-deal-robert-costa

Republicans telling Boehner: Obama must surrender or there's no deal.

but but but why won't Obama negotiate!?

"We won't allow Obama to destroy America... by destroying America ourselves! It's brilliant! Nothing can go wrong!"

What's to prevent this from happening every time they need to fund the government? Why isn't there something to prevent this and why is it just now happening 225 years after the country's founding?

Because, until the Tea Party, we never had a terrorist group with power in Congress. But you can bet something will change after this to prevent it.

 

[Devolution]

"We won't allow Obama to destroy America... by destroying America ourselves! It's brilliant! Nothing can go wrong!"

Sometimes you have to destroy the village in order to save it.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

What's to prevent this from happening every time they need to fund the government? Why isn't there something to prevent this and why is it just now happening 225 years after the country's founding?

The founding fathers could not foresee Americans electing so many dumbfucks.

 

[Riki]

Sometimes you have to destroy the village in order to save it.

It's kind of like killing the patient to cure the disease. Though, in this case, it's more like killing the patient to disease the cure.

 

[TomServo]

I will never for the life of me understand why flip-floping, with an articulate reason as to why the change, is a bad thing to many people.

I honestly didn't know about his "flip flop", at least that he directly (and thoughtfully) addressed it.

+1 Obama in my book.

 

[besada]

What's to prevent this from happening every time they need to fund the government? Why isn't there something to prevent this and why is it just now happening 225 years after the country's founding?

Did people say stuff like "it's going to destroy America" when social security passed?

Yes, they did.

As to why it's happening now, and not earlier, it takes people time to see and understand the loopholes inherent in the mess that is the Congressional rules. And then it takes some time to grow the balls to use a routine act to hijack an entire country.

As to why there isn't something to prevent it? Our Founding Fathers overlooked a couple of things when they drew up the Constitution, namely allowing the Congress and Senate to make up their own rules. That bought us this debacle, and every filibuster-based debacle, because the rules in the House and Senate are insane, can't be changed by anyone but themselves, and aren't checked or balanced by any other branch.

Thanks, Thomas Jefferson!

 

[NullPointer]

Representative Paul Broun (R., Ga.) agrees, and says Boehner risks an internal rebellion if he decides to broker a compromise. “America is going to be destroyed by Obamacare, so whatever deal is put together must at least reschedule the implementation of Obamacare,” he says. “This law is going to destroy America and everything in America, and we need to stop it.”

 

[Pyrokai]

Yes, they did.

As to why it's happening now, and not earlier, it takes people time to see and understand the loopholes inherent in the mess that is the Congressional rules. And then it takes some time to grow the balls to use a routine act to hijack an entire country.

As to why there isn't something to prevent it? Our Founding Fathers overlooked a couple of things when they drew up the Constitution, namely allowing the Congress and Senate to make up their own rules. That bought us this debacle, and every filibuster-based debacle, because the rules in the House and Senate are insane, can't be changed by anyone but themselves, and aren't checked or balanced by any other branch.

Thanks, Thomas Jefferson!

Well....like, wtf. Is this a flaw in the system or can anything be done about it...ever?

 

[commedieu]

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/360598/conservatives-wary-deal-robert-costa

Republicans telling Boehner: Obama must surrender or there's no deal.

but but but why won't Obama negotiate!?

dont know why i keep revisiting this thread. Its shocking, I keep getting more pissed off.

 

[Byakuya769]

I should say he's unwilling to discuss any kind of compromise. Say "you want this delay, OK but you gotta give this up in exchange". Hell he can make his demands just as unreasonable if necessary. I honestly don't care who caves first I just want this stupid game of chicken to end so we can get on with our lives.

If you end it that way, get ready for the debt ceiling. Then get ready for next year, and the year after.

 

[fredrancour]

Well....like, wtf. Is this a flaw in the system or can anything be done about it...ever?

Mass public outrage fuelling a constitutional amendment, I suppose. Not gonna be possible as long as the republicans are ruled by psycopaths devoid of the ability to comprehend how democracy works.

 

[Riki]

Well....like, wtf. Is this a flaw in the system or can anything be done about it...ever?

Laws can be made and changed. So of course things can (and likely will) be done.

 

[Kettch]

Representative Paul Broun (R., Ga.) agrees, and says Boehner risks an internal rebellion if he decides to broker a compromise. “America is going to be destroyed by Obamacare, so whatever deal is put together must at least reschedule the implementation of Obamacare,” he says. “This law is going to destroy America and everything in America, and we need to stop it.”

This is what happens when your propaganda hate machine is too effective. The brainwashed crazies that were created eventually get into power.

 

[RoninChaos]

I can understand the media's POV and reasoning for having false equivalencies, but what the FUCK at American people as a whole having false equivalencies despite RIDICULOUS amount of BLATANT evidence to the contrary?

I can't. The media is part of the problem and they need to stop. Immediately.

 

[GloveSlap]

They might as well demand that Romney takes over the presidency at this point, its about as undemocratic.

 

[-COOLIO-]

They might as well demand that Romney takes over the presidency at this point, its about as undemocratic.

That's actually a good way of putting it.

 

[Somnid]

Laws can be made and changed. So of course things can (and likely will) be done.

Likely not in our lifetime. It's like how we gave states like Wyoming an equal vote with California in the senate despite how little they actually represent. They'd have to specifically relinquish their own power to fix it. How often does that happen without armed or threats of armed conflict? It's especially bad because the Constitution was written to prevent bad laws which of course had the side effect of making it really hard to pass anything which is why we have these problems.

 

[besada]

Well....like, wtf. Is this a flaw in the system or can anything be done about it...ever?

Things could be done about it. They could pass a real budget , at which point the CR becomes unneeded. They could change Congressional rules, if they could agree on it, which they won't. The only external pressures available to my knowledge are: voting them out, recalling those whose states have recall procedures, or passing some sort of Constitutional amendment.

Given that those are all highly unlikely, I expect this particular bug in the Congressional rules will endure. Particularly if Democrats use it next time they get a chance.

 

[Kettch]

They might as well demand that Romney takes over the presidency at this point, its about as undemocratic.

They would demand Bachmann or somebody, not Romney.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

They might as well demand that Romney takes over the presidency at this point, its about as undemocratic.

They demanded the adoption of essentially the entire Romney/Ryan policy platform IN ADDITION to delaying and/or defunding Obamacare in exchange for funding the government for a few weeks.

 

[Zoramon089]

They demanded the adoption of essentially the entire Romney/Ryan policy platform IN ADDITION to delaying and/or defunding Obamacare in exchange for funding the government for a few weeks.

Well they haven't quite understood what it means to be the loser of the election yet