At this point, everyone should be disrespectfully disagreeing with this ideology. Look where being nice to the other side has gotten us.
Boehner: Nation on the path to default if Obama doesn't give concessions for ACA
- Thread starter TacticalFox88
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This is certainly a problem, but only insofar that Boehner is willing to cater to them. Most probably he does so because it profits himself (and only himself) at this point. That all goes out the window if he lets the Tea Party steer the US into default, because that means he overshoots the grandest of payouts and ego trips, but it's dead-on for infamy and begging on a street corner.
First thing first. Let's get one thing out of the way. Debt Ceiling that is being talked about is a giant misnomer. Debt Ceiling is raised periodically so the government can pay debt that is a done deal, it doesn't prevent debt from increasing next year.
Watch closely.
That was outstanding. The "point" was so stock-perfect that I had no idea where they were going with it. Then I say the byline of the counterpoint.
I think you're just sort of fundamentally misunderstanding what the debate over the debt ceiling really is, and especially the debate surrounding this shutdown which wasn't described as having anything to do with "teaching a hard less about too much debt" so much as about delaying the funding of already-signed law to prove a point- of some kind. I think if you were more familiar with it, you'd understand that the shutdown/debt ceiling fight are not only not the answers to your questions, they're actually totally unrelated.
The debt ceiling in America is essentially a manufactured problem. It, bizarrely, does not put a ceiling on our debt.
In other words, the debt ceiling in practice is not a limit on how much debt we can have, but a functional limitation on our ability to pay that debt back. A fixed or "lowered" debt ceiling would do nothing to reduce or restrict government spending or deficits, it would just make it much harder to legally pay for all the things that we'd still be spending money on anyway.
So why did we do this to ourselves? Pure politics. Congress loves the debt ceiling, because it gives them a bargaining chip to use in a sort of cavalier hostage-taking manner in budget negotiations. Because Congress is responsible for both writing the budget and raising the debt ceiling itself, while the President is the one that actually has to spend the money as instructed... they can basically yell at the President for being fiscally irresponsible while being both the source of the problem and the possessors of the only solution. It gives Congress the ability to say "beg me." What it doesn't do is reign in spending or make America more fiscally responsible.
I'll summarize it with this still from CGPGrey's 4-minute video you should really watch on the topic:
Whether or not you think the United States should be spending as much money or it is or how much debt is too much debt and so on, is a surprisingly unrelated discussion.
so? They are terrorists. Does that mean its a good idea to arrest them? No
"Too much debt" is whatever the market thinks is too much debt. Basically, it becomes too much when interest rates start going up enough that it becomes difficult to pay back.
So the answer is that we don't know. Theoretically, at some point interest rates should start to climb as a signal that the market doesn't want US debt as much anymore, or thinks it's high risk, or what have you. But it's quite possible that we'll never reach that point as long as GDP is growing. Certainly as things stand now, with bondholders actually paying the US (in real, not nominal terms) for the privilege of holding US treasuries, we're nowhere near that point.
Note that the consequences of too much debt are loss of faith in US treasuries and rising interest rates. These are also the consequences of failure to raise the debt ceiling and the resulting default.
If you are concerned about the consequences of too much debt, you should be in favor of raising the debt ceiling for the same reasons.
Sure, it's a reasonable question. There has to be some point where the debt is too much and the markets rebel, right? If we tried to dump $50T of treasuries on the market right now (I don't know how this could actually happen in practice, but let's just say...), then supply would far outstrip demand, rates would spike in order to find buyers, etc etc. It would be a disaster. But it doesn't follow that $50T is "too much debt." It's quite possible that decades from now, we will have $50T in outstanding treasuries and things will be totally fine. There's not a hard limit.
they really should just keep you locked into that lenin avatar for forever.
ridethepiggy
Banned
Dude's a terrible troll. Stop givin him attention he doesn't deserve.
Wow, that commercial is amazing...
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
The one thing saving us is low interest rates on the debt. If they rise much more, all taxes will go towards paying off the debt.
Anticitizen One
Banned
I'm surprised people haven't seen it. It was playing nonstop for a few days during the 2010 election cycle I believe before getting banned. But alot of people got scared shitless and voted in a republican congress because of it.
Won't be fun when people end up homeless or dead because of this.
The people responsible for this should go to prison.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
How do you cut debt/spending without hurting growth?
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
By stopping Obamacare
Correct answer: Keep the government closed.
No government means no government spending!
Anarchy for all!
OminoMichelin
Member
free market man, it's going to fix everything man.
This is really interesting when you think about it.
So much industry in the US is dependent on lobbying to operate. Whether is be a chemical company that needs the EPA to look away, or a brokerage that needs to skirt the SEC, industry really relies on government to be able to operate freely. If you have a group like the Tea Party, which is truly independent, of course Wall Street is going to be freaking out, because Wall Street can't play unless the deck is stacked.
Will this result in more responsible private entities that try to operate within the law, because they know they can't just call up their personal slave in DC and have them push through some deregulation? Prolly not.
It is really telling how indignant some of the quotes in that article are. They are angry with Tea Partiers because they aren't dependent on lobby money, and therefore aren't helping their firms. Before this crisis, I'm sure people on Wall Street would say that they donate money to support democracy, and that elected representatives are beholden to their constituents, but now that it's the 11th hour they're just coming out and screaming, "WE CAN'T MAKE THESE PEOPLE DO WHAT WE TELL THEM BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT TAKING OUR MONEY!"
I'm Canadian, so my view of this whole thing is a little different. From up here I do get the sense that the Republican Party is much more popular than people on here are saying. I truly hope they get beat down in the next election, but who knows. Everyone up here thought Gore was gonna beat Bush.
That's exactly what they are. They are actively working against the American people and actively harming innocent people over a petty crusade. They are nothing less than criminals and traitors in my eyes.
Wowfunhappy
Member
As a newer member, I'm curious: Is Neogaf usually a Democrat-leaning community, or are the Republicans in general finally getting the crap they freaking deserve?
smokeandmirrors
Banned
It leans a bit more left, yes.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
The forum does lean left, however the United States also leans far right comparatively, and keep in mind posters are from many countries.
Additionally, Republicans, crossed the line from being an asshole during negotiations, to, taking hostages.
This is just not true. Remove gerrymandering and Democrats would have a supermajority in House.
NeoGAF is very liberal for the US. At least the voting part of the country. The media, and by extension the public, are blaming Republicans and Obama almost equally. More blame Republicans, but not that much more.
You sure about that? Democrats gerrymander too.
gutter_trash
Banned
as a Liberal Canadian looking down from up north..... I feel sorry for Americans who just want nationalized health care but can't get Insurance Reform passed because Right Wingers are against it.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
The US is far right compared to most first world countries.
equippedwithtowel
Member
It's also an international forum. Very few western states are aligned as far to the right as the US.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
Most Democrats are right of center compared to similar parties in other countries.
Sure, but that's not what I was disagreeing with.
gutter_trash
Banned
this is the truth, the left does not exist in the US, with the exception of Bernie Sanders of Vermont
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Supermajority? Dude Republicans got 52% of the popular vote, Democrats 45%. Let's not skew the facts here. The truth is, the US is relatively a far-right country. The choice is between far-right and centre-right.
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
You're right.
I'd much prefer drone strikes with tasers.
Do you think having them run any part of our country a good idea?
NO
smokeandmirrors
Banned
In the house? Democrats won by 1.7 million+ votes.
Nope, they got 52% of the house. But he dems won the popular vote by 3%.
this basically means that the party make-up of congress is off from what it should be by 10%
We don't have a proportional representation system. My assertion is that with straight geographical districting that dems would likely end up with a supermajority. You don't need 75% of the total votes to win 75% of the seats.
Right. Lol.
republicans controlled most of the gerrymandering in 2010. Thus those gerrymandering districts favored republicans. Its pretty absurd when democrats win the popular house vote, but become a minority party thanks to gerrymandering.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Lol I embarassed myself by looking at the 2010 results. My point still stands though, between Republicans+Libertarians and Democrats, the US isn't exactly a left-wing country in-secret.
I recall there was talk about a way President Obama could raise the debt ceiling himself but that it had never been done before so it was legally questionable. The justification had to be air tight if it was challenged. However if it was cleared by the courts then it would clear the way for all presidents to tell congress to go to hell when trying to hold this over them. Obama has been saying that isn't on the table, etc. However I wouldn't be surprised if it was and that they had a full presentation ready to justify it if they had to do it.
America is Center Left.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR0GcpBC8M8&list=WL1D62149764015251
And it's only going to get more progressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR0GcpBC8M8&list=WL1D62149764015251
And it's only going to get more progressive.
To be fair, more people actually voted for Gore than Bush. Similarly more people voted for democrats in the 2012 House elections than for republicans.
equippedwithtowel
Member
There is an argument to be made that the Democratic base is more liberal then the mainstream wing of the party but lacks the concentrated and virulent support to form a Tea Party-like movement.
Not that it places the average american citizen as necessarily more progressive then his Canadian/British/Australian counterpart.
Was considering citing this, but I think it gives too much credit to a few wedge issues that have been given their prominence intentionally by the right.
Not that it places the average american citizen as necessarily more progressive then his Canadian/British/Australian counterpart.
Was considering citing this, but I think it gives too much credit to a few wedge issues that have been given their prominence intentionally by the right.
gutter_trash
Banned
US is a center-right country.
Democrats are a center-right party. Bill Clinton and Barack Obama are center-right Presidents
Honestly I really wouldn't be horribly upset about the Affordable Healthcare Act. I see it as a temporary thing to get to single payer. What really upsets me is precedent of passing/repealing laws by holding budget hostage and that the GOP is doing it.
After 2014, assuming the Dems get full control, we need some amendments:
1. No legislation through budget.
2. No gerrymandering.
3. A way for the people to dissolve Congress and have some sort of temporary representative, nonpartisan body that addresses critical things like budget until elections are made. I
4. No filibuster.
InvaderZimmer
Member
Might be in the minority here but my district (41) got gerrymandered in favour of democrats so it definitely goes both ways.
Yeah, I was laughing at the point since it was pretty badly wrong as demonstrated by that statistic. Poorly written on my part.
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