Breaking Bad - Season 5, Part 2 - The Final Eight Episodes - Sundays on AMC

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My question is this:

What can walt possibly do to show he is not a sociopath in your eyes then? There are plenty examples where I think walt shows genuine love and affection for his family, but you can find some sort of self serving aspect in every act period. If things like caring for Jesse when he needed him don't count because you assume that he was just doing to to keep him as a trophy or whatever, even if we only have indirect indications of that, then I can't see how he can prove himself otherwise.

At this point? He can't. I've seen too much.

Look at the way he interacted with Jesse on the couch in this episode. Every word out of it was pure manipulation. How can you trust any statement he's ever made when he is so thoroughly capable of deceiving and manipulating even someone you claim he cares about?

He's killing Jesse right now and has been since not long after he met him (or re-met him, I suppose). Slowly he's burning out Jesse's soul until there's nothing left. If he cared about Jesse he *would not do that*.
 
commenting on what maharg said about relating Walt's plight with mental illness/criminality, is something I have thought have for a long time. A study could seriously be done on viewers and it could say a mouthful over mental well being. It would seriously be interesting
This show is too good. I don't think I've ever seen a show get better every season and never drop off. There are 7 episodes left, but I have full faith that they will all continue to build to an amazing finale. I can't think of a show that wasn't prematurely canceled or intentionally 2-3 seasons that didn't drop off at some point.

VInce said something along the lines that he thought the show would only last 2 seasons and was prepared to end it at that for awhile, which could explain the cold opens during season 2 and basically him getting back into a corner after they were renewed.

That said I still think Season 4 was the greatest season of any show out there, well see how this final one goes.
 
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At this point? He can't. I've seen too much.

Look at the way he interacted with Jesse on the couch in this episode. Every word out of it was pure manipulation. How can you trust any statement he's ever made when he is so thoroughly capable of deceiving and manipulating even someone you claim he cares about?

He's killing Jesse right now and has been since not long after he met him (or re-met him, I suppose). Slowly he's burning out Jesse's soul until there's nothing left. If he cared about Jesse he *would not do that*.

A lack of trust just means uncertainty. It doesn't mean that walt is definitely lying, it just means you have no idea if he is or not. As for walt, he was definitely manipulating Jesse and in this case, I think he was just trying to save his own ass from Jesse ruining their friendship by lying about it now.

However, my question is how can he prove that he legitimately cares about people. Like I said earlier, he can lie and manipulate people while still loving them. He was manipulating jesse to his own perferred reality (not killing mike) but I don't think that means he doesn't care about him, which is what I'm asking. There are plenty of examples where he is being warm and caring toward the people he claims to love, often for seemingly no higher purpose. You can find sociopathic explanations if you look hard enough, as you can find them in any action. So what seperates Walt from, say, skyler. There are points where she is a convincing liar, where she manipulates, where she is possessive. Why isn't she a sociopath in your eyes? Or are capable liars unable to be trusted just because they can pull off what they do too convincingly?
 
At this point? He can't. I've seen too much.

Look at the way he interacted with Jesse on the couch in this episode. Every word out of it was pure manipulation. How can you trust any statement he's ever made when he is so thoroughly capable of deceiving and manipulating even someone you claim he cares about?

He's killing Jesse right now and has been since not long after he met him (or re-met him, I suppose). Slowly he's burning out Jesse's soul until there's nothing left. If he cared about Jesse he *would not do that*.

Well i was one of those saying he wasn't a sociopath, just a very very very delusional and cruel, selfish man.

However the Jesse scene was so fucking hard to stomach, i wanted to enter the screen and scream in Walt's face.
It's weird because i know it's not the first time he has coldly manipulated others (Jesse included) but seeing him just keep pushing and pushing was infuriating.
And in that scene (like in a few others in the last seasons ) he did look like an alien incapable of understanding how human really works, which is kind of a classic definition of a sociopath.

But i still think in the first few seasons he showed genuine emotions of empathy, so i stand by that (and he's not a real person so a diagnosis is a bit worthless anyway).
 
I watched the episode. Holy fucking shit at that end confrontation.

Didn't expect them to do that this early. I expected Hank to do a little investigating of his own spread out across a few episodes....maybe tell Gomie about his suspicions.

Man, oh man, the King is back.
 
At this point? He can't. I've seen too much.

Look at the way he interacted with Jesse on the couch in this episode. Every word out of it was pure manipulation. How can you trust any statement he's ever made when he is so thoroughly capable of deceiving and manipulating even someone you claim he cares about?

He's killing Jesse right now and has been since not long after he met him (or re-met him, I suppose). Slowly he's burning out Jesse's soul until there's nothing left. If he cared about Jesse he *would not do that*.

I want to hug you.


I'm not saying Walt is this cartoon villain. He still shows SOME humanity. I.E. His face when he shot Mike.

But he's still a fucking selfish asshole. "Oh I could've gotten the names from Lydia, sorry for killing you lul" was one of the dumbest things I've heard from him.

Walt is perfectly capable of feeling like a human when he makes stupid brash mistakes.

What the problem is when he has time to change. When he can mold himself to manipulate and lie to people.
 
Sorry if this has been brought up.

What will Skysky make of Walt's face? Will Walt tell her, or will she assume it was something to do with Lydia?

Stuff from one of the cbs clips:
The fight isn't over yet. In that cbs promo clip posted earlier, you see walt completely dirty in the same outfit. Loading luggage into an old rusted pickup while flynn and skylar pull up and him tell them to pack up as quick as possible. I'm assuming he called the cleaner.
 
A lack of trust just means uncertainty. It doesn't mean that walt is definitely lying, it just means you have no idea if he is or not. As for walt, he was definitely manipulating Jesse and in this case, I think he was just trying to save his own ass from Jesse ruining their friendship by lying about it now.

However, my question is how can he prove that he legitimately cares about people. Like I said earlier, he can lie and manipulate people while still loving them. He was manipulating jesse to his own perferred reality (not killing mike) but I don't think that means he doesn't care about him, which is what I'm asking. There are plenty of examples where he is being warm and caring toward the people he claims to love, often for seemingly no higher purpose. You can find sociopathic explanations if you look hard enough, as you can find them in any action. So what seperates Walt from, say, skyler. There are points where she is a convincing liar, where she manipulates, where she is possessive. Why isn't she a sociopath in your eyes? Or are capable liars unable to be trusted just because they can pull off what they do too convincingly?


Everybody lies.

I think what separates Walt/Skyler isn't that they both lie, but the actions preceding the lie, what they're trying to accomplish with lying and the effects of the said lie.
 
Can one become more of sociopath over time? I really don't think Walt started the show out as one, but it's pretty hard to argue that he isn't now.
 
Can one become more of sociopath over time? I really don't think Walt started the show out as one, but it's pretty hard to argue that he isn't now.

I don't think so.
I believe it can't be effectively diagnosed before maturity (like around 18 or so) but it's a mental condition from birth.
Anyone correct me if i'm wrong.
 
Everybody lies.

I think what separates Walt/Skyler isn't that they both lie, but the actions preceding the lie, what they're trying to accomplish with lying and the effects of the said lie.

That's fine, but you really can't think of any situation where Walter did something for someone else? Not one?

I rewatched the series recently, specifically looking for an alternate explanation for walt's conflict with Gus, that he didn't like being under his thumb and stuff, that he felt threatened by gale...but honestly, walt didn't seem to mind that too much either of them and only rocked the boat when Jesse was in danger and needed the help. I'm sure there are other actions he did, for his wife, his family, taht I can't think of right now that were of a similar nature. In these cases, you can still find sociopathic explanations for his actions, but they just seem to be reaching when the simpler explanation is that walt simply wanted someone he cared about to be happy.

Can one become more of sociopath over time? I really don't think Walt started the show out as one, but it's pretty hard to argue that he isn't now.

Well, not the mental discrepancy (unless you shoot a rod through your skull like that one guy), but you can basically condition yourself by exposure therapy to not be bothered by immoral actions. You kill one guy, and you feel nothing but a sinking horror. You kill another, same. You kill a third, it's less. A fourth, a fifth, a tenth. By the 15th, you'll just feel you should get a free coupon at this point and hope the 16th doesn't bleed out as much, since it's hard to get the stains out. You can kill your conscience, it just takes a bit of effort.
 
Real Talk;

Walt kills Lydia
Jesse kills Todd
Walt kills Hank
Walt kills Jesse
Walt kills Saul
Skyler falls face first into a woodchipper
Huell kills Walt
 
Realer talk:

Junior - Killed or made comatose in a car accident
Skyler - Killed by Walt
Gomez - Killed by Walt in NH after Hank tracks him there
Lydia - Killed by Walt with the ricin
Declan/Todd - Killed by Walt with the M60
Walt - Killed by Jesse after saving him from Declan

Saul will survive, but his spinoff show will be cancelled after the 1st season. It's replacement will be a Raising Arizona-style show starring Badger, Marie, and Baby Holly. The three of them will be on the run from Hank after Marie cuckolds him for Badger. Marie's kleptomania will be put to incredible use.
 
I would find it really hard to believe that Walt comes out of hiding with a machine gun just so he could poison Hank or Jesse lol. It's probably for himself.

That's why i find it so puzzling.
And why would he kill himself with ricin? Isn't it a relatively slow way of killing? Especially if ingested instead of injected.
 
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“My name is Heisenberg, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!”
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
 
That's why i find it so puzzling.
And why would he kill himself with ricin? Isn't it a relatively slow way of killing? Especially if ingested instead of injected.
maybe because he is already sick it would go into effect faster or something. Either way it may just be a back up to ensure he isn't alive in prison if it goes that far. Or maybe he does plan on using it on someone else but I just don't see how that would work.
 
maybe because he is already sick it would go into effect faster or something. Either way it may just be a back up to ensure he isn't alive in prison if it goes that far. Or maybe he does plan on using it on someone else but I just don't see how that would work.

Thing is, he doesn't seem to have many antagonists left now.
Aside from Hank, Jesse or Skyler, what other character is alive and important enough to warrant such an attention?
 
Walt definitely has sociopathic tendencies, which doesn't mean that he doesn't care or form attachments to people, but that his own needs will always come first.

This has always been there, when he refused the offer from Grey Matter and went back to the drug business, even after seeing how dangerous it was. Walt's a smart guy there is no way it didn't occur to him that there could be some blow back on his family. He was given an out but wouldn't take it.

Let get away from the idea he was doing all this for his family. He was quite clearly doing it for himself.

I believe the diagnose panicked him, he'd seen how mediocre his life was with his family and job.
 
maybe because he is already sick it would go into effect faster or something. Either way it may just be a back up to ensure he isn't alive in prison if it goes that far. Or maybe he does plan on using it on someone else but I just don't see how that would work.

Yeah, he isn't likely to be meeting someone for brunch in his flash-forward state. If the ricin isn't meant for him, it'll have to be used in a way that the show hasn't yet attempted.
 
The primary victim of Breaking Bad’s difficulty with characterization is Walt’s wife Skyler, who is introduced substituting fake bacon for real and yet, somehow, manages to become even less sympathetic. When Walt chooses to deal with his cancer in private, Skyler stages a cringe-inducing intervention, and she makes his illness all about her. When Hank tells her about Marie’s kleptomania, Skyler loses it and makes that about her, too. When she believes that Walt has taken to smoking pot, presumably for the pain from his cancer, Skyler tracks down his drug dealer and gives him a lecture straight out of an afterschool special. Is it possible to redeem a character who has been depicted as that prim and naïve?

There are critics who defend Skyler and accuse viewers who despise her of sexism. But the real sexism is built in to the show, which rarely evinces any curiosity about Skyler’s inner life, apart from how it affects Walt. (Quick: Try to think of a scene in which Skyler is funny, or just amused by someone else. Then consider how much humor accrues to even the most dour male characters.) It isn’t until the third season that Breaking Bad shapes Skyler into a figure who can compel empathy, and only through pity, really, as it becomes clear how few options she has. Skyler’s line “I fucked Ted” is exhilarating, but Ted is a loser who will make her life even more miserable. Then there’s Jane, Jesse’s tragic heroin-addict girlfriend, who enters the show as one lamentable stereotype (a goth version of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl) and abruptly morphs into another (the emasculating femme fatale) when the plot requires it. Breaking Bad gives none of its female characters the kind of agency that its male characters enjoy.

http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-case-against-breaking-bad,101439/
 
what an episode.

He goes on the run without Skylar and his kids. Hank goes to the cops and a manhunt follows.

The big gun has to be for a massacre, but of who? My guess is Todd and the Aryan Brotherhood.

The ricin is for himself, he will confess to Jesse about Mike and then use it on himself in front of him. This is after he tells Jesse that he has left money for Mike's grand daughter and the boy's family.

Jesse can now live happily knowing that Walt and Todd are dead and the families are looked after.

Hank, Skylar, Marie, Walt Jr and Holly all live.
 
Honestly it's hard to blame Walt for leaving the company if Gretchen cheated on Walt and left him for Elliot and they were the only 3 people starting it up. Who would want to be in that situation? Obviously in hindsight it was dumb but there's no way to know at the time how successful they would be.
But think about the family he was going to have! Walt should have just sucked it up and realized that eventually he would have a wife who hates him and a son who loves him! I bet his pride stopped him from seeing that too!

Seriously though, I still believe Walt has good intentions when he started. I really do. I've been sick and worried what would happen to my family after I was gone. Walt was the only one working if I recall. He's faced with a treatment that would bankrupt his family... No offense to anyone here but it's really easy to Monday night quarter back this. If gray matter came to him before he started cooking then this would be a different story.

I also think its strange to try and act like the character was always evil. He wasn't. That's why that mr chips to scarface line is thrown around a lot. This series started as a drama about extreme situations that lead to extreme choices. Now it's about watching Walt transform. Season 1 Walt wouldn't have that smug look on his face the way he did when mike had a gun to his head in 5.7. I don't think Jesse was even supposed to live past season 1 but Gilligan thought he could do more with Jesse. So now Jesse is where he is.

I really don't believe this show was planned thru the end, right when they started. Its trajectory has changed as it went on. So has the trajectory of the characters.
 
"Maybe if you don't know who I am......the best course of action would be too....tread lightly."

aka

"I'm Heisenberg, bitch!"
 
Seriously though, I still believe Walt has good intentions when he started. I really do. I've been sick and worried what would happen to my family after I was gone. Walt was the only one working if I recall. He's faced with a treatment that would bankrupt his family... No offense to anyone here but it's really easy to Monday night quarter back this. If gray matter came to him before he started cooking then this would be a different story.

So his choices were: expose himself and his family to the ruthless underworld - never mind the morality of making a highly addictive drug - or take a job with some people who may have fucked him over decades ago. Yeah, he did this for his family.

It's quite easy to make rationalisations for his choices and Walt does that plenty, but the hard cold facts say something different.
 
Honestly it's hard to blame Walt for leaving the company if Gretchen cheated on Walt and left him for Elliot and they were the only 3 people starting it up. Who would want to be in that situation? Obviously in hindsight it was dumb but there's no way to know at the time how successful they would be.

It's only hard to blame Walt if you believe his side of the story which always paints him as the victim and society or someone else deserving the blame. From his last conversation with Gretchen it is evident to me that Walt left on his own accord due to his massive ego and inability to share credit with his co-founders. We don't know exactly why his relationship ended with Gretchen but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was Walt's undoing for whatever reason. He is a sociopath and the Gray Matter story feeds into the theory that he was always that way long before he became a math cook. The fact that someone as brilliant as Walter White would become a high school science teacher means something has been very off about him from the beginning. He can't relinquish control and despises the idea of someone being higher than him. That's what makes being a teacher so attractive; you are the boss - until of course you’re muscled out by the principal who refuses your advances.
 
what an episode.

He goes on the run without Skylar and his kids. Hank goes to the cops and a manhunt follows.

The big gun has to be for a massacre, but of who? My guess is Todd and the Aryan Brotherhood.

The ricin is for himself, he will confess to Jesse about Mike and then use it on himself in front of him. This is after he tells Jesse that he has left money for Mike's grand daughter and the boy's family.

Jesse can now live happily knowing that Walt and Todd are dead and the families are looked after.

Hank, Skylar, Marie, Walt Jr and Holly all live.

I don't think he'll ever be able to do that, Jesse's life is essentially destroyed now.
 
what an episode.

He goes on the run without Skylar and his kids. Hank goes to the cops and a manhunt follows.

The big gun has to be for a massacre, but of who? My guess is Todd and the Aryan Brotherhood.

The ricin is for himself, he will confess to Jesse about Mike and then use it on himself in front of him. This is after he tells Jesse that he has left money for Mike's grand daughter and the boy's family.

Jesse can now live happily knowing that Walt and Todd are dead and the families are looked after.

Hank, Skylar, Marie, Walt Jr and Holly all live.


I think Todd is going to get a bullet if Lydia sends the Nazi death squad against Walt and his family, to tie up loose ends.

Todd might go after Walt and Jesse too because they know too much about him and his people.

I think only Marie and Walt Jr. will survive.

I also called it that Walt would go back for the ricin, and will bet he uses it on himself just in case he survives the M60 massacre. He will not get taken alive and the cancer will not kill him, he will regain choice and power from destiny, even if it makes him a monster and he has to kill himself in the end.

Jesse's fate is the most interesting to me here. I didn't think so before the premier, but now that he has figured out to what extremes Walt will go, Jesse might just be compelled to kill him if put in such a situation. Or his guilt will let him be killed.
 
We really need to find out exactly what made walt leave her on the altar. I feel like that's gonna be one of the show's last key revelations, and I'd be willing to bet money it'll be in a flashback in the cold open of the last episode.
He left her on a vacation to Newport (possibly to her house, maybe not, it's ultimately irrelevant) with her father and brothers, not the altar (they were in a relationship though).

For this kind of analysis to hold up, you basically have to assume that Walt was always a "bad guy", even in the early seasons. But if he was always bad, then there's no descent. It seems much more logical that Walt did (and still does) have a fair amount of human empathy, compassion, loyalty, etc.

Edit: I mean obviously there were always elements of badness in him (as there are in all of us). What I mean is that your analysis makes him a completely unsympathetic character very early in the story.
Full disclosure, I strongly believe Walter was always a 'bad guy' and have done so for quite awhile. I don't see how the lack of a descent or sympathy makes him less compelling and interesting though.

Anyway, if we look at it chronologically (also the Gray Matters section I'm taking from a post I made awhile ago since it's easier than writing it all out again):

JOB HISTORY
Elliott and Walter as partners. [Gray Matters]
-Gretchen as Walter's former love.[I cannot recall the precise episode but I'm highly confident it has been strongly suggested, I believe it was at the end of Gray Matters]
-Elliott being married to Gretchen. [Gray Matters]
-Walter leaving suddenly from the fourth of July vacation (where he was with Gretchen's family), barely saying a word. [Peekaboo]
-The reason for it not being understood by others and it being clear that Walter was the one who left, not being forced out or knowlingly slighted ("You left me", "You walked away", "You abandoned us", "barely talking"); this also suggests it was seen as illogical since it wasn't properly understood which alligns with why Gretchen and Elliott do not have a problem paying for the treatment (if it was a large argument they would certainly be much more hesitant or there would be some tension between them whereas all tension seems to stem from Walter). [See Peekaboo]
-Walter's incredible capacity to spite others, particularly for perceived betrayals [See Green Light].
-Gretchen citing that Walter abandoned her and Elliott which fits in with Walter's ego by thinking that he was an irreplaceable part of the company and without him it would fail (which he also did with Jesse in season three to a lesser extent while also being something that he later did with the Fring organisation and coincidentally conforming with why he didn't have a problem taking the buyout at the time). [See Peekaboo, Green Light, Cornered]
-Walter's magnificent ability to lie (to himself and others) and frame himself as a victim (which makes his side of the story nowhere nearly as credible as Gretchen's; there's little reason to doubt her given what we have seen of her in the show). [See everything regarding his "for my family" excuse and for the latter part his manipulation of Jesse, Marie, Walter Junior, Hank Gretchen]
-Walter's obsessive need for control and dominance. [The series; see his relationship with Skyler, Gus, Jesse, Mike, Saul, pretty much everyone]
-Gretchen's status at the creation of Gray Matters being 'higher' than Walter's ('rich girl just adding to her millions' which is something he very clearly dislikes given the delivery and phrasing of this line). [Peekaboo]
-Walter's speech in Bug about his father clearly indicating that his issues of power, pride and dominance are deep-seated (although it was clear beforehand, this more-or-less outright states it)
-Walter as a manipulator in his meeting of Skyler which long precedes the show. [Cancer Man]

While we do not know the exact specifics (whether he left over Gretchen and Elliott or if it was to do with Gretchen being of a higher class which Walter resented by making him feel as if he did not have as much control as she would have had given her wealth; the latter seems much more likely than the former because no bridges were burnt and the reason for Walter leaving was inexplicable to the others), everything we do know about Walter and the incident suggests it was of Walter's own creation as a result of his character traits (primarily his pride and ego). There isn't anything to suggest it is anything other than his own fault. The only reason one would necessarily believe anything else is by siding with Walter's account in Peekaboo which seems illogical considering that we have ample reason to distrust Walter (his delusion and lying) and no reason to distrust Gretchen.

Next, he worked in Application Labs (Cancer Man). We know nothing other than that it was clearly not successful. He worked in a chemical lab when he met Skyler (Cancer Man) and that too wasn't successful and he also worked in Sandia Laboratories (Full Measures), also not successful.

At this point, before the show begins, we know one thing of Walter, that he is a man unable to properly hold down jobs who had multiple opportunities to work in (or in one case, jointly own) a large company. One or two I could concur that he was unlucky, but four? It's possible, but look at the job he ultimately ends up with, a high school teaching position, a job where he is in a position of power over those he works with (his students of course, not the staff). In looking at personality disorders, an inability to maintain a job for a considerable length of time is often something that is considered (among many other things of course) to see the impact it has had on somebody's life. Now, you could say 'but I've had fifteen jobs, I'm hardly a psychopath/sociopath/suffering from Antisocial Personality Disorder' and true, but the show isn't reality, it's a crafted tale and information is included if it's deemed pertinent by the writers. Take Hank, Marie and Skyler for example; Hank's had two mentioned jobs (one for college/his youth and the other as a DEA agent, presumably for a loong time), Marie is a nurse (no mention of anything else that I recall), Skyler is an accountant (who voluntarily left Beneke's) and is a failed novelist. Only Walter has received an indication of an inability to properly secure/maintain a job prior to the show (and as mentioned, the one he does have puts him in a position of power).

The job at the car wash (not included in the 'big jobs' obviously) broke down when he was ordered to do something (this was after the diagnosis so I can accept that it was a reaction to that). And the job at the school? He couldn't maintain that either (of course, as we recall it was for overtly flirting with Carmen as a way to seek vengeance for Skyler's relationship with Ted so maybe it's not worth mentioning).

In total, the job's Walter has had are: Gray Matters, Application Labs, Chemical Company, Sandias Laboratories, School Teacher, Car Wash, Six jobs, four pottentially large jobs, one part time job. If we include his drug dealings, you can include a supplier to Tuco, a supplier to Gus, a supplier to Dennis/Lydia but I'll avoid doing this since they could, perhaps, be argued against as self preservation (I will get to them later).

RELATIONSHIPS

His relationship with his father was nearly non-existant (only in that he died when he was six and Walter has only one image of his father) and his memory of his father is of a weak man dependant on others, lacking any form of control (lacking control of his body and something that Walter himself utterly feared and was revolted at.

His relationship with his mother is clearly poor but we don't know much more.

For Gretchen see Gray Matters since they're intertwined but Walter ended it out of pride.

Skyler's relationship began with Walter manipulating her to speak to him.

No other close friends are mentioned but this is likely for casting and plotting reasons.

During the show:

His gut reaction to being trapped is to commit suicide by police officer as he points his gun at the oncoming sirens; this is not a moral thing to do. If he had killed himself? Fine, but to do so by shooting at others?

He decided to start selling crystal meth. Ignore Walter's deluded.cries that it's for his family, he decided to sell an awful drug that ruins many peoples lives and puts his family in perilous danger. If we assume his intent was to help his family (which could be seen as good***), there is not a single place in the entire universe where this should be seen as anything other than an immoral, reprehensible choice.

He continuously lies to Skyler for three weeks (and this is solely the pilot). Yes he is in a slightly submissive position to her but...so what? What difference does that make? If Walter was dominant and Skyler was submissive would Walter somehow be bad and Skyler good? The power dynamic is within the realms of that of a pretty normal relationship, not a thriving one, but a normal, bland relationship.

He murdered a man. This could be self defense but I'll comment on that aspect later. He changes his '50/50 partners' to 'I am the one in control, go buy what I tell you to buy'.

He immediately puts himself in a position of power over Jesse. Yes he's more competant at this, but he establishes dominance. Note how Jesse continuously calls Walter 'Mr. White' (this occurs throughout the series), a reminder of the power Walter has over Jesse. Yes he also does not turn Jesse in, but he blackmails him into working for him, something that has far worse ramifications. Walter's very first interaction with Jesse is to manipulate him and use him.

He murders a second man. Now, this is where the self defense aspect and family danger comes into play. The moral thing to do would be to go to the police as he is alive. Now, I can understand that this would be bad for Walter so let's say that that was not an option (even though in truth, it is a valid option). Walter was, at this point, immediately aware of the danger his family was in. Just look at the notes he has on the murder of Krazy 8, the negative to releasing him is that he'll murder his entire family. Walter, from this point, immediately knew his family was in grave danger. While he would be a bad person, I could somewhat understand the previous decisions if, at this point, he decided he was done and that was the end, but any delusions he may have had about the drug business putting their lives at risk and being bad for them is gone at this point. He continues knowing full well the threat they are under. He also takes sandwiches without the crust as he did.

He blows up a man who annoys him's car. He was empowered by his experience. This is not how a normal man would behave.

***Now, this is the big one. Gray Matters. At this point, Walter's 'for my family' excuse is gone. If his intent was purely to provide for his family, he takes the deal, either deal. There is something more, his pride, ego, and sense of control. He has already been (as stated) empowered by his experience. He is fully aware of the danger his family is in, and he's fully aware of what things he will have to do in the busness.'But that wouldn't leave money for his child's tuition'! Perhaps not, but look at the valuation of Gray Matters. Neither Gretchen or Elliott harbour ill-will towards Walter, it's solely on his end; maybe they wouldn't pay for it or pay him more, but he never even asked. Also note how they offered a six figure salary with medical care. Walter wouldn't have had to spend a dime on medical bills and all he needed (which he decided later) was '737,000'. We don't know the exact offered salary, but given how essential Walter was in Gray Matter's formation I could absolutely buy that he would have achieved that. But no, he returns to cook meth instead. If many prideful people would do that, many prideful people are self-absorbed. That is not logical, it is not rational, and it is not moral. We know from later on in the show just how good Walter is at lying to himself. Regardless of what his intent was up to this exact moment, this is where he begins lying to himself. If you look at it in any logical manner, Walter is not doing it for his family from this point forward, regardless of what he has convinced himself. Take note how he doesn't even care about others seeing him as dependant/accepting charity as he actually goes so far as to tell Skyler that he accepted.

Walter gets Jesse to be the public face (Jesse absolutely should have walked away right here but he absolutely needs some form of approval that he's never before had). Yes this is mostly about protecting his own identity but he does it by putting Jesse's at extreme risk. '50/50 partners', they should share the risk, regardless of th division of labour (which Walter intrudes upon; the initial meeting with Tuco to retrieve the money I can understand, but he then makes a deal with Tuco and also asserts his dominance over Tuco making him take more out of greed).

He continues belittling Jesse in the open house.

Still lying to Skyler, there's also the attempted rape to put himself in a position of power over her. There is the fear that he has placed upon his entire family through his disappearance.

The danger to his family is once again noted as Tuco reminds him there's lots of collateral when dealing with a family man. If he had any delusions up to this point, this is where he should leave. He also takes Jesse's gun from him (once again asserting his power over Jesse) by arguing that he needs it more (and while that maybe true, it also means he's removing Jesse's form of defense).

I could continue in this detail but I'm unsure if you'd read it so let me hit on the main points:

He burns his bridges with Gretchen and Gray Matters (who were still willing to pay for the treatment). This is the point where Walter being a sociopath who was bound by fear (note that this is directly stated in the show 'until my diagnosis I couldn't sleep everynight due to my fear. Since then, I've slept soundly ever since.' to paraphrase, but I know it's said to Hank [I believe sometime after Negro y Azul]) because it is here where we get our insight into his past.

He continues manipulating and belittling Jesse while getting him to continue in the drug business. If Walter cared for Jesse, he would not tell him to go murder Splooge and skank (I know that's not her name), I would not tell somebody I care about to go murder somebody else. Jesse has already proven himself completely unable to handle the dark things that they are doing (which Walter has no few apparent qualms about as he's put two murders behind him already [let's not forget that he intended to leave Tuco for dead]). He barely even notices it or acknowledges this. He continues to make Jesse the public figure andwhich exposes him to risk and Walter, time and again, intrudes upon Jesse's side of business to control him. The handling of breakage for example should be Jesse's decision but Walter intrudes. Deciding to expand should be Jesse's decision, Walter intrudes. Walter needs Jesse, but cares about him? He may think he cares about him, but he cares about him in an entirely self-centered manner (this will continue to be argued in Jesse parts).

The lack of sensitivity (or interest) he displalys concerning Combo's death. He shows no interest or concern in how Jesse is feeling and doesn't display even the slightest bit of regret.

The murdering of Jane. Yes, not initially intended as Walter shook Jesse which knocked Jane onto her back which allowed her to drown in her vomit but no event highlights his lack of care for Jesse as much as this (in the early stages of the show). Not only is the act itself abhorrent, but the emotional destruction that any person should have seen it would cause on Jesse is almost as bad. Before you argue 'both would have died', 'she deserved it', 'he cared about Jesse in tht instance', let me intrude by saying, no, just no. The way to handle the situation was precisely what Donald was going to do (which is what a normal human would have done), call the police about potential drug use, take the money (so it isn't seized), get them to go to rehab and return the money afterwards. There were ways to handle the situation that did not evolve murdering the woman Jesse loved and leaving him with a crushing feeling of guilt. There is an aspect of self preservation in the murdering of Jane but this is not an excuse. Somebody can be cold and calculated. Somebody can do moral things. Sometimes.these overlap, but in this instance, they don't. It was immoral and wrong to let Jane die, regardless of how much it benefitted Walter (it also benefitted Walter for Jane to be out of the way so Jesse was entirely reliant upon him). Walter does have a paternal relationship with Jesse, but it's extremely twisted and warped; it's not a healthy relationship for Jesse and it only benefits Walter (at the expense of Jesse), Jesse has gotten nothing out of it other than some small moments of gratitude. On the money aspect though, it isn't really his to take. Jesse is his own person and if that was Jesse's decision, it was his decision to make. Walter should not have complete control over Jesse's life. If we accept that Jesse would have died otherwise, it would have been bad, sure, but Jesse would have died with at least one thing he loved in his life, he wouldn't have continued to be Walter's pawn to be emotionally manipulated at every stage and crushed by guilt.

Continues to lie to Skyler who decides to leave. Walter's denial and delusions become even more apparent, particularly with the plane crash.

Continuously insults Jesse as he makes his own meth, denies that Jesse has any competency, asserts that he is solely in control, denies there's any partnership (paraphrased 'it's mine' in relation to their product when, as Jesse rightly says, it's theirs as per their agreement) and reveals what he actually thinks of them and Jesse together.

He refuses to sign the divorce papers (initially) to assert his dominance over her but also out of pure selfishness. His wife is clearly distraught, with no desire to be with him, yet he won't sign the divorce papers because he likes the idea of still being part of the family, despite the fact he's already partly ruined the family.

He praises Jesse only as a last resort to get him to join him in the superlab. I think this is one of the very few moments in the show where Walter says anything positive to Jesse, certainly one of the few moments where he's given any validation from Walter (whereas Mike and Gustavo both later praise him when appropriate).

-slight break here. I know I'm bringing up a lot of Jesse but that's because Walter's interactions with him and Skyler give the greatest credence to the claim that Walter was always a sociopath/has ASPD and I don't want the post to be far too long (although I think it already is)-

Still lying about motive. Note how he continuously states that he wants to be the provider. He wants to be in control so that his family are dependant and reliant upon him (of course he certainly wouldn't see it that way himself, or at least acknowledge it)

Now skipping a few to the Half Measures incident since I know this is brought up repeatedly. Yes, Walter murders the dealers to save Jesse. Walter does care about Jesse, but he cares about him in a selfish manner. Walter takes trophies from those he kills (sanwiches, drinks, children, car, Leaves of Grass, goatee [ok ignore this part of the sentence if you disagree, it's ultimately dispensible]), but he cares about him as his living trophy, a monument to his power Jesse is the two trunkless legs of stone which stand in the desert near the shatter'd visage which begs upon others to despair at Walter's mastercraft. Go back through any Jesse moment. When, at all, does Walter show concern for Jesse in a way that is not somehow involved in his continued manipulation of Jesse? The hug when Jesse is in the heroin den when Jesse breaks down is essential to getting him out of there. The murdering of Jane crushes Jesse with guilt. He never gives him praise and the one time he does is to manipulate him. He thinks of Jesse as a son, true, and he treats him like a pawn to be used (interestingly, Walter uses Junior as a pawn to be used in his power struggle with Skyler). Walter needs Jesse 'because he does what [Walter] tell him to do' (as he said to Gus in explaining why he needs Jesse) and because Jesse is a man utterly dependant upon Walter (as he seeks some form of approval and love). Walter may view it as care, but it is need, an obsessive, compulsive and selfish need. Up to this moment, Walter never does anything solely for Jesse's benefit, he always does things for Jesse when he somehow gains from it, Look also at how Jesse mentions the 'three months' and Walter shrugs him off as being nonsensical when Walter himself has begun thinking of it. Jesse's concern was justified, and Walter acted as if he was a fool. Even if we say that yes, this was a selfless (immoral) act Water immediately asks for a reprisal for (that being the murder of Gale, murder being something Jesse has been adamantly against up until this point). The relationship between himself and Jesse has always centered around Walter's power and control; any time Jesse has sought a relationship with others (Mike for example) Walter has looked on with contempt and tried to manipulate him against them (Gus, Mike's hazard pay). There is an attachment, but not one that could be described as care from anybody's perspective but Walter's own.

Walter does not flinch at the murders.

Walter begins using children (mainly Junior though) as a wedge between himself and Skyler and to make his children side more with him than her. Note how this also occurs after the two dealers are murdered.

-from here most would argue he's a sociopath so just a few more-

Bogdan's sentimental dollar which he takes and uses because Bogdan appeared to be talking down to him.

His use of the cleaners.

He poisoned a child Jesse cared strongly about (risking his death; Lily of the Valley can be fatal so yes, Walter didn't intend to kill him, but he found it an acceptable risk), furthering his emotional manipulation of Jesse (and also scorning him after Gus left the car unused).

His continued behaviour with Skyler and framing her as the wrong one to relatives.

Bombs a nursing home. The fact that it's one room is hardly relevant, he planted a bomb in a nursing home. He also brought it into the hospital, to the pediatric care unit I might add. This was not necessary to his survival. What does Jesse do? He urges him to go to the DEA, to seek witness protection for himself and his family. Even if, somehow, he was some rational man who somehow managed to stay involved as long as he has, that is what you should do, not engage in quite a convoluted, risky strategy (that is an extreme long shot) to murder somebody with far more power than you have who is far more dangerous and well-equipped. He also gets a Volvo like Gus (in the flash-forward).

Pure manipulation to Jesse regarding the ricin cigarette
 
Set out to turn Jesse against Mike (Hazard Pay and also not out this shows one time where Walter appears to ask Jesse for his feelings merely out of interest but Walter interrupts that he was actually asking about the money).

Tries to manipulate Jesse to leave Andrea.

Has little problem with the boy being shot by Todd (it seems little coincidence that Todd mimicks what Walter argued to Gus in Box Cuter).

^Also by now he has long surpassed his 737,000 that he claimed was all he needed, just as a reminder.


Murders Mike after being insulted. Yes he has shock afterwards but that can be read as Mike surviving (and beginning to drive). Admittedly it could also be to acknowledge that yes, it was a pointless murder but a self-awareness does not really change that he ended up doing it (and then chased him to finish the job).

Murdered ten people, intended to murder Lydia. He drinks how Mike drank.

By this stage, his competency as a manipulator and liar has been well established. It is at this point that self reflection may be requierd. If we can see, by now, just how well he is at lying (to others and himself), how can one believe what he claimed earlier in the show. It becomes very easy to show that he did not care about people because of this, it becomes much more difficult to show he genuinely cared for them. There are constantly examples of Walter manipulating people for his gain but there are few, if any, clear examples of him doing something selfless. The only person he has not yet murdered who was dominant towards him is Skyler who he truly believes he loves (yet it is more the idea that he loves; just look at his obliviousness at the start of season five to her blatant agonising terror). Yes, he does not often immediately murder (initially anyway), but a lot of the time he would not be able to do so as his opponents are, most of the time, much more physically capable; he also is constrained by Jesse who would not take well to Walter murdering.

Also, one thing I just want to look at is the reaction people have to their first murders in the show:

Walter, breaks down in to tears saying I'm sorry. He then disposes of him and doesn't seem to care (ignoring Emilio who is actually his first who he doesn't care for remotely). He murders four more people directly after this (two dealers, Gus, Mike), planned a fifth (Lydia by ricin), and twelve indirectly (Gale, Jane, Mike's ten men).
Hank, suffers post traumatic stress disorder. He murders one more person after this in a do-or-die situation (the cousin).
Jesse, debilitated, almost unable to live. Murders one more person after this (in Mexico; Tio Salemanca's relation [grandson?]).
Mike, Gus, cousins and Tuco are many years into the business at this stage so it does not seem a fair comparison to include them (but if Gus, the cousins, and Tuco's first shown murders, Victor, the truck and Tuco's worker, which themselves occur fairly late in their respective person's careers are comparable to Walter's, it doesn't put him in a very good light).


All of that strongly points to a significant amount of sociopathic tendencies and they don't begin at a specific point in the show, they're there from the very beginning and stretching back long before the show. I certainly can't agree with the notion a previous poster made about it being a retroactive alteration of his character.

I know I've gone through this in a huge amount of detail and it is probably ridiculously long but I'd rather make one solid argument (I've tried to dispel many of the common arguments against particular moments also) than numerous posts since I know this topic is one that can be aggravating to many (it's also partly so that I can come back to this post later to take a segment if making an argument about a specific aspect). Just to clarify, I'm not stating those who think differently of Walter are morally weak or you shouldn't root for him (even though I do find the idea of rooting for anyone/anything in a show kind of bizarre and don't really understand it) or anything as such, I just feel that there is enough evidence to suggest that he was always the same person. There is no doubt that, prior to the show, he lived a law-abiding, perhaps moral, life; I don't think anybody would argue otherwise. However, I don't believe in the slightest that his actual personality has changed from, at least, the Gray Matters incident; the only difference is that where once he was afraid of reprecussions (but didn't let it interfere in some incidents), he now is fearless of them (again, he outright says this to Hank) and, as a result, grows in confidence (and his ego balloons). You can rationalise his choices but if you look at them objectively his rationalisations begin to fall apart.

I don't agree with this.

This doesn't look like the same jacket at all. Jesse's jacket has two buttons and straps on the shoulders, while Walt's jacket doesn't have either of those, but does have two buttons on front pockets and dark green strip down the button line.

Also, since when has Jesse wore this jacket besides that one situation? Isn't he known for his vast amount of clothes?
Walter stealing traits of those he murders is never 'precise', it's often symbolic. Krazy 8 he cuts the crusts of his sandwiches since the murder, the two dealers he takes their use of children (in a different way, but it's only after this that he uses a child), Gustavo he takes the Volvo (but a different colour and type of Volvo; if you want he also takes the towel-vomit [note also how Walter gets it after vomitting, Gus takes it before; Gus was planned, Walter is reactionary] and demeanour at his place of business), and Mike he takes his drinking habits. If you want to move onto indirect kills then with Jane he takes a goatee after murdering Jane (just as her father had) and with Gale he takes his interest in poetry (going from no indication of interest to caring significantly about Leaves of Grass),

With reference to that speculation picture:
It isn't that he takes the exact same coat, it's that he takes one that's so similar. Walter's hairstyle is also somewhat similar to Jesse's in the promtional poster of him. I do concur though that with the large amount of clothes that Jesse wears on the show that it is weaker than, for example, the argument that he has taken Skyler's traits in the cold opening (not wearing a ring, taking her maiden name and arranging his streaky rashers as Skyler does) but certainly something interesting to keep in mind.
.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post, I exceeded the character limit. I honestly didn't intend the post to be so long, it's just brought up so often that I thought it was worth going through in an extremely comprehensive matter so that those who are unsure as to why somebody would believe he was always a sociopath/suffering from ASPD can understand the point of view.

EDIT 2:
I also think its strange to try and act like the character was always evil. He wasn't. That's why that mr chips to scarface line is thrown around a lot. This series started as a drama about extreme situations that lead to extreme choices. Now it's about watching Walt transform. Season 1 Walt wouldn't have that smug look on his face the way he did when mike had a gun to his head in 5.7. I don't think Jesse was even supposed to live past season 1 but Gilligan thought he could do more with Jesse. So now Jesse is where he is.

I really don't believe this show was planned thru the end, right when they started. Its trajectory has changed as it went on. So has the trajectory of the characters.
It is but Vince Gilligan has mentioned that as the show progressed, he felt he had not done so as he gradually began to feel that Walter was always the same person (EDIT 3:Worth noting that Cranston still believes it was from Mr Chips to Scarface from what I have seen)) :
http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/press-tour-breaking-bad-panel-live-blog
1:22 p.m.: A critic suggests that perhaps Gilligan hasn't quite turned Mr. Chips into Scarface, because he had all these elements boiling under the surface all along. Gilligan acknowledges that it's not that accurate a phrase on either end, because Mr. Chips was much more beloved by his students than Walt was, though he did that to make Walt more sympathetic in the pilot. The longer he did the show, the more he subscribed to the idea that circumstance didn't so much change Walt as reveal who he really was.
 
Has anybody seen the pilot for The Writers Room with all the staff from Breaking Bad?

It's actually very interesting to watch :).
 
How so? Hank has only just confirmed his suspicions, and I believe the episode only passed a couple days. He's not an idiot - he's going to go through this very carefully.

Walt was right under his nose all this time and Hank couldn't sniff him out. Hank won't underestimate Walt and needs to be quite careful and diligent in every move.

Such a scene between Hank and Jesse will happen.

Late reply but I'm sorry I read that as Walt and Jesse instead of Hank and Jesse. My bad.
 
Walt isn't very self reflective, so for some time he might have bought into his self delusion about his "good intentions", but that is the nicest that can be said about him.
 
Set out to turn Jesse against Mike (Hazard Pay and also not out this shows one time where Walter appears to ask Jesse for his feelings merely out of interest but Walter interrupts that he was actually asking about the money).

Tries to manipulate Jesse to leave Andrea.

Has little problem with the boy being shot by Todd (it seems little coincidence that Todd mimicks what Walter argued to Gus in Box Cuter).

^Also by now he has long surpassed his 737,000 that he claimed was all he needed, just as a reminder.


Murders Mike after being insulted. Yes he has shock afterwards but that can be read as Mike surviving (and beginning to drive). Admittedly it could also be to acknowledge that yes, it was a pointless murder but a self-awareness does not really change that he ended up doing it (and then chased him to finish the job).

Murdered ten people, intended to murder Lydia. He drinks how Mike drank.

By this stage, his competency as a manipulator and liar has been well established. It is at this point that self reflection may be requierd. If we can see, by now, just how well he is at lying (to others and himself), how can one believe what he claimed earlier in the show. It becomes very easy to show that he did not care about people because of this, it becomes much more difficult to show he genuinely cared for them. There are constantly examples of Walter manipulating people for his gain but there are few, if any, clear examples of him doing something selfless. The only person he has not yet murdered who was dominant towards him is Skyler who he truly believes he loves (yet it is more the idea that he loves; just look at his obliviousness at the start of season five to her blatant agonising terror). Yes, he does not often immediately murder (initially anyway), but a lot of the time he would not be able to do so as his opponents are, most of the time, much more physically capable; he also is constrained by Jesse who would not take well to Walter murdering.

Also, one thing I just want to look at is the reaction people have to their first murders in the show:

Walter, breaks down in to tears saying I'm sorry. He then disposes of him and doesn't seem to care (ignoring Emilio who is actually his first who he doesn't care for remotely). He murders four more people directly after this (two dealers, Gus, Mike), planned a fifth (Lydia by ricin), and twelve indirectly (Gale, Jane, Mike's ten men).
Hank, suffers post traumatic stress disorder. He murders one more person after this in a do-or-die situation (the cousin).
Jesse, debilitated, almost unable to live. Murders one more person after this (in Mexico; Tio Salemanca's relation [grandson?]).
Mike, Gus, cousins and Tuco are many years into the business at this stage so it does not seem a fair comparison to include them (but if Gus, the cousins, and Tuco's first shown murders, Victor, the truck and Tuco's worker, which themselves occur fairly late in their respective person's careers are comparable to Walter's, it doesn't put him in a very good light).


All of that strongly points to a significant amount of sociopathic tendencies and they don't begin at a specific point in the show, they're there from the very beginning and stretching back long before the show. I certainly can't agree with the notion a previous poster made about it being a retroactive alteration of his character.

I know I've gone through this in a huge amount of detail and it is probably ridiculously long but I'd rather make one solid argument (I've tried to dispel many of the common arguments against particular moments also) than numerous posts since I know this topic is one that can be aggravating to many (it's also partly so that I can come back to this post later to take a segment if making an argument about a specific aspect). Just to clarify, I'm not stating those who think differently of Walter are morally weak or you shouldn't root for him (even though I do find the idea of rooting for anyone/anything in a show kind of bizarre and don't really understand it) or anything as such, I just feel that there is enough evidence to suggest that he was always the same person. There is no doubt that, prior to the show, he lived a law-abiding, perhaps moral, life; I don't think anybody would argue otherwise. However, I don't believe in the slightest that his actual personality has changed from, at least, the Gray Matters incident; the only difference is that where once he was afraid of reprecussions (but didn't let it interfere in some incidents), he now is fearless of them (again, he outright says this to Hank) and, as a result, grows in confidence (and his ego balloons). You can rationalise his choices but if you look at them objectively his rationalisations begin to fall apart.


Walter stealing traits of those he murders is never 'precise', it's often symbolic. Krazy 8 he cuts the crusts of his sandwiches since the murder, the two dealers he takes their use of children (in a different way, but it's only after this that he uses a child), Gustavo he takes the Volvo (but a different colour and type of Volvo; if you want he also takes the towel-vomit [note also how Walter gets it after vomitting, Gus takes it before; Gus was planned, Walter is reactionary] and demeanour at his place of business), and Mike he takes his drinking habits. If you want to move onto indirect kills then with Jane he takes a goatee after murdering Jane (just as her father had) and with Gale he takes his interest in poetry (going from no indication of interest to caring significantly about Leaves of Grass),

With reference to that speculation picture:
It isn't that he takes the exact same coat, it's that he takes one that's so similar. Walter's hairstyle is also somewhat similar to Jesse's in the promtional poster of him. I do concur though that with the large amount of clothes that Jesse wears on the show that it is weaker than, for example, the argument that he has taken Skyler's traits in the cold opening (not wearing a ring, taking her maiden name and arranging his streaky rashers as Skyler does) but certainly something interesting to keep in mind.
.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post, I exceeded the character limit. I honestly didn't intend the post to be so long, it's just brought up so often that I thought it was worth going through in an extremely comprehensive matter so that those who are unsure as to why somebody would believe he was always a sociopath/suffering from ASPD can understand the point of view.

EDIT 2:

It is but Vince Gilligan has mentioned that as the show progressed, he felt he had not done so as he gradually began to feel that Walter was always the same person (EDIT 3:Worth noting that Cranston still believes it was from Mr Chips to Scarface from what I have seen)) :
http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/press-tour-breaking-bad-panel-live-blog

Come on man. Who can't rattle off a list of Walt's sins? There's reasons behind everything you list that you conveniently don't get into. Clearly, those reasons don't make Walt's actions morally right, but they do paint a picture different than a mindless self serving robot akin to T-1000. Literally nothing you list was as simple as you make it seem. Yes, Walt has done deplorable things, yes he's grew more detached and desensitized as the series progressed, but his range in reasoning is what makes the character one of the most fascinating in the history of the medium.

Arguments like this don't accomplish much but to cheapen complexity an amazingly layered show which has the balls to put it's characters in these deep-gray conundrums. Why does Walt poison brock? Why does he kill those two dealers? Why Does he watch Jane die? Why does he save Hank at the risk of his own family? What were the circumstances around his killing Krazy 8? You gloss over this for what? To stand tall and cast down Walter White as an evil sociopath? I'm still waiting for someone to craft this arguments without omitting the other side of the character that we've all very plainly seen.
 
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