Here's one: free trade prevents World War 3 from happening.
[Brexit] chief who created £350m NHS lie on bus admits leaving EU could be 'an error'
- Thread starter Izuna
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Air Zombie Meat
Member
No, not at all. It's happening and I'd like to think something positive will come out of it. Still waiting to hear what that is beyond empty nationalism and vague feelings of what it means to be british.
No economic damage then eh? A true believer I see. Going down with the ship, willingly it seems.
How do you see the UK post Brexit with no EU single market deal, the same, worse, a utopia that was held back all these years by the EU? What have you thought of the UK in the last 10-15 years? Do you blame the UK government more than the EU or vice versa?
Indeed. Had too many of them to keep my head afloat.😄
Serious question: why can't they hold another vote?
It seems like a lot of new info has come out about Brexit after the vote that would have affected the vote heavily.
If there's new evidence in a murder case, the case is reopened and sometimes an innocent person is freed.
So why can't they reopen Brexit and hold a revote in light of all this new info?
It seems like a lot of new info has come out about Brexit after the vote that would have affected the vote heavily.
If there's new evidence in a murder case, the case is reopened and sometimes an innocent person is freed.
So why can't they reopen Brexit and hold a revote in light of all this new info?
To say this, in this thread...
You were conned, the thread says you were conned, and you like it.
boxoctosis
Member
To the last question, probably both equally, it's hard to divorce the two.
I fundamentally disagree with neoliberal economics and believe the last 40 years pursuing those policies have been hugely detrimental to parts of the UK economy, while advantageous to others.
Post Brexit, I see the economy being impeded, and I hope the divorce from the EU will enable a different path for our economy. A more socialist one less in thrall to the markets. That would never happen whilst in the EU.
Personally I think the UK has been becoming a more unequal and shameful place to live in over the last 30 years.
UnObtainium17
Member
I actually feel bad for UK. Yes might have been a majority but it was pretty darn close. They should have made a mandate on the % of lead to consider a win. Something that close should have been elevated to the higher courts.
When this is all said and done, I hope they put charges on the fuckers who pushed this so hard and lied about it the whole time. They've fucked the country up by whipping up xenophobia and promising things which were never going to happen.
Preferably, this shit gets reversed, or at least made soft as hell and we rejoin later, however long that may be.
Preferably, this shit gets reversed, or at least made soft as hell and we rejoin later, however long that may be.
I keep hearing this vanity project moniker thrown around a lot.
What do the people believing think it means?
The EU allows this collection of small countries to be on the same level as the United States and China.
How can the UK negotiate better trade deals than the EU?
It's like a grape being squashed by a watermelon.
What do the people believing think it means?
The EU allows this collection of small countries to be on the same level as the United States and China.
How can the UK negotiate better trade deals than the EU?
It's like a grape being squashed by a watermelon.
There's no point having another vote because whatever the outcome it won't stop the stupidity. You'll get a surge of people who totally lose faith in the political parties and start voting ukip again which is a much bigger problem.
The truth is you can leave the EU without turning it into a suicide pact. That's what's we should be focused on.
This is unreal you voted to leave were happy about it and not letting ay immigrants g there take away your jobs and dedtroy your culture and now that you have seen it has longer and deeper repercussions are saying we still can back it up and they will welcome us with arms wide open because we are the most powerful and we dont need from anyone.
How deluded can you be, live by your decisions and accept them, hopefully all the benefits you had will been taken away.
How deluded can you be, live by your decisions and accept them, hopefully all the benefits you had will been taken away.
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
Strong and stable, Will of the people yada yada. No idea honestly. It's either the government would rather fuck the entire country than admit to a fault or they just have that much of a hate boner for the people.
BibiMaghoo
Member
While I fundamentally disagree with your position, I appreciate you sticking around to make it clearer.
Can you elaborate further on what damage has been done over the last 40 years, and what has made it shameful as a result, that relates to the decision to vote leave? That is still pretty vague. What detriment has effected parts of the UK as a result of being in the EU?
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
If you've never read Cummings' blog, I urge you to do so. It's an oddyssey of being a complete fantasist and a text book example of the DunningKruger effect.
He was Gove's personal thinktank when he was education secretary. The absolute horror of typing that sentence.
He was Gove's personal thinktank when he was education secretary. The absolute horror of typing that sentence.
Miles Quaritch
Member
UKIP will never be a viable political force in the UK. At their peak they only had one elected MP and he defected from the Tories. Even Farage, the godking of cunts everywhere couldn't manage to get elected and boy did he try.
At most they'll keep the Tories out of power and further destabilise the party, which is a good thing.
No that's not the truth, that is a small and remote possibility.
You have to start making very very hard decisions about taxation since you will have a huge competitiveness problem.
Out of the EU the UK is fundamentally less competitive with limited comparative advantage. From that perspective the government will have to make some stark choices, it may well have to reduce the size of the state because the exchequer will not have the tax revenue to support it.
If you want to spend more on the NHS and pay those in public service more you will need the same amount of tax revenue as today. You are unlikely to have that. That leaves you with the option of raising taxes to get more money.....which will exacerbate your lack of comparative advantage in the big bad world.
This dilemma is turned up to 11 when you consider that the UK will be ass-reamed by any large bloc over trade deals because the UK is a small country by itself.
Brexit is a suicide pact because there is no hard or soft brexit, there is just exiting the Single Market and the EU will not give us shit.
Brexit means this country will become a tax haven and unregulated supply-side jesus second coming. You know it in your heart to be true. I hope you can afford private medical insurance.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Notice how there's no mention of the Thatcher years which made inequality much worse and left entire communities to rot, communities that were abandoned by successive UK governments, but were finally starting to see regeneration thanks to the EU...
No mention of the Scandi's either, what with their socialist utopias...oh wait Sweden is in the EU? Fuck me.
There is bound to be another referendum but not until the final deal or options are negotiated. They can't announce a referendum beforehand because obviously it would be in the interest of the EU to give us a terrible deal to ensure the majority votes to remain.
It would be suicide for the Tories to move forward with a terrible deal, or no deal. So there is no doubt that if it comes to that, there will inevitably be another vote. Likely multiple choice and likely with a single market option if not fully remaining in the EU.
People need to remember that a lot of the nonsense about no deal being better than a bad deal is just noise directed towards the EU. It's meaningless and I fail to see the Tories ever being able to move forward with no deal without being completely and utterly wiped from existence.
And for those who say 'but the Tories have said there won't be another referendum' then I shall remind them that we weren't having a general election this year either.
Yep true. Come to North Wales and some areas of Chester, you can't move for signs that say 'part of EU funding / Regeneration / partnership'.
It's ridiculous.
Why did Wales unanimously vote to leave? I don't get it. :/
I think you need to look up unanimous in the dictionary.
Edit: bit snarky from me there. I meant not everyone voted to leave, but I suppose all the constituencies did.
Because they are insane (alas I live in Wrexham).
My favourite one was Cardiff a few days after the referendum saying 'Government, OK we are leaving but you've got to secure and promise the same level of funding we get from the EU when we do'
It was like...wut????
My memory must be hazy because from what I recall the vast majority voted for Leave, but again, memory must be hazy.
The question is why they'd want to leave the EU when so much of their funding comes from the EU itself.
Leave's argument was that the money invested in Wales was made up from rebates of the money the UK gives to the EU in the first place.
GameAddict411
Member
I hope the UK becomes an example of what an isolationist state ends up like. The UK still hasn't seen the full extend of the economical concequences of the brexit. It's going to be brutal.
ClosingADoor
Member
Thing is, you live in the UK. There is going to be no socialist government there. It ain't happening. The EU offers you more protection then your own government wants to give you. The EU invests more in poor areas in the UK then your own government wants.
The only two things the EU might have caused the UK is 1) Money to be paid to Brussels and 2) immigration from Eastern Europe.
That money that goes to Brussels, you earn back due to open trade and easier investments. The UK also gets a big rebate, so it was cheaper then it looked.
For the immigration, it is true that flooding the market with cheap labor is not that smart to do suddenly. That is why the EU gives options to soften that blow over time. The UK did not make use of it. Your own government did not want this. Next to that you have a ton of needed people in a lot of sectors that are filled through EU immigration. If immigration was such a large issue, the UK could have chosen to close it from outside the EU easily. Your government did not do this.
Exiting the EU will not make the UK go down a different economic path. The things you complain about will only get worse.
Hard Brexit or not, I don't get the feeling of isolationist Britain from the government. Quite the opposite, they want to privatise the NHS further so companies in other countries can run it for them.
Also with Qatar going tits up they need to quickly make some new investment friends.
boxoctosis
Member
The EU is a fundamentally neoliberal institution, and I don't buy that economic model. Vast swathes of the north of England have a pitiful economy , and many towns consist of coffee shops and charity shops and supermarkets. Blyth in Northumberland for one, if you've been there. Hardly any jobs, just nothing. Have you guys spent any time in the north of England? It's not very pretty, economically, or socially.
And yet this against a backdrop of the EU, all this booming economy, all this GDP growth that is going to the corporations rather than the workers. Or London. The two tier economy.
I'd prefer we chose a different path, (plus all the other reasons that I posted it another thread).
This is all true. Everyone in Blyth works for Draeger though, a German company. They employ quite a few people there.
But whilst you are saying that the EU hasn't helped fix this, perhaps they aren't the problem in the first place.
The EU is not impeding us redistributing wealth to bridge the North / South divide, nor stopping growth in shitty northern towns where all we have are Bookies, charity shops and Weatherspoons.
Leaving the EU is not changing us from this path. At all.
ClosingADoor
Member
Just to add to my previous post. The EU is actually making cases against big corporations about their taxes, biggest example being Apple in Ireland.
Your own governments give those deals to the corporations. The EU is not stopping anyone from taxing more or setting stricter rules, since taxation is a thing for the country itself. They can stop corporations from hoarding the money. The EU is not going to stop you from doing a corporate tax increase.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
The problems you point to will just get worse post brexit. The poor will be hit the hardest.
boxoctosis
Member
A few people in Blyth. Come now!
My point, the EU is a neoliberal institution. I fundamentally disagree with that economic model. Therefore, given the chance to take a different course, yeah I'll vote for that again and again.
Wrestlemania
Banned
Here's an article on how the EU has benefited the North East of England.
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/what-european-union-ever-done-11480870
But I'm sure they'll be doing even better once those neoliberal fuckers in the EU aren't involved and our glorious Conservative government can finally step in to clean up the mess they've left!
boxoctosis
Member
And here's an article criticising the impacts of neoliberalism.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ng-economic-growth-the-imf-says-a7052416.html
This whole vote was based on beliefs, on incomplete information. We'll never agree will we!??
And to your edit, we won't have a Conservative government for ever. And should a left wing labour government get in, it's a good thing (I think) that they won't be constrained by the EU.
And how will crippling the economy's ability to grow for years, if not decades, help in that? The EU isn't Superman, they couldn't save every single citizen from the shitty systems they live in; they did, however, do a damn lot more for areas like Wales, Cornwall, the North, etc than New Labour or the Coalition ever did. You've yet to explain why this "New path" is any better than the old path we were on other than "yeah but they're neoliberals tho"
The North being a barren wasteland has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with the UK government callously disregarding the collapse of manufacturing and mining and spending little to no money trying to support the region in any other way.
Not that it would have changed things much - look at Wales. London is successful because we are a services economy and London is close to the continent and has good links to the continent. It will be successful by default in a service economy. How is this in anyway the EU's fault?
Manual labour low skilled jobs will never come back. Your solution seems to be erecting barriers to try and prevent the inevitable. Sooner or later government's in many countries will have to face up to the harsh reality that structural unemployment will continue to rise because lower-skilled worker are being replaced by automation. You can try and train people for high-tech manufacturing jobs but they will be few in number and not everyone will be able to attain sufficient proficiency. The only solution is universal basic income.
The only bloc seriously considering this and testing this is....the EU.
If you think the EU is opposed to social welfare and left-wing economics, how do you explain Sweden?
You voted for a solution that will only accelerate the decline of the North because you voted to remove the last vestige between us and the very worst of the Tory party who will shred EU working regulations and turn this country into something as close as possible to The Fountainhead as possible.
I can not possibly believe you are this dumb as to have voted this way. You voted to crash the economy to try and realise some sort of unattainable socialist utopia? You also said it has been shameful to say you are from the UK. You voted to have Christmas for racists. I don't know what else to say apart from are you trolling?
i don't see any new info tbh
I don't think anyone is under the illusion that the EU is perfect. Not even Juncker. Things aren't black and white and the EU has plenty of major flaws. But it's the lesser of two evils, compared to the Brexit disaster we're facing instead.
And as for a left wing government, Belgium is in the EU and has no problem taxing at 60% (but Corbyn is crazy! etc) and offering one of the best health services in the Western world.
The Hamburglar
Banned
The bus doesn't actually imply the NHS will get 350mil a week though .
boxoctosis
Member
It being the lesser of two evils is your opinion, and I'm not going to arm wrestle you for it. But I don't agree!
Wrestlemania
Banned
I'm not doubting the issues with neoliberalism - but nothing in that article suggests that the neoliberal policies we've had in place in the UK would somehow have been avoided had we not been in the EU.
To what degree do you think a Labour government would have been constrained in helping the North of England outside of the EU? And assuming you can suggest some benefits, how will those outweigh the loss of all the benefits similar to those in the article I posted about the North East, and in the face of our economy in general taking a hit through Brexit?
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Supporting the Tory Right's pet project isn't a good way to bring about socialism. Plus many EU countries are far more social democratic than the UK is. Explain how the EU prevents redistributionist policies. What you have done is hand over power to the Jacob Rees-Mogg types. You don't want to agree with a guy who lives in the 1920s mentally. You really don't.
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