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[El Topo]

I wouldn't read too much into all this saber-rattling.

 

[ClosingADoor]

It started off as 50bn, now 100bn and even Barnier has said there isn't an agreed figure.

I don't know the details of what is meant by 'settling the accounts', but how do they come up with any figure, let alone 100bn? Wasn't the UK putting in more than it was taking out?

You are aware these are not official numbers being published by the EU, but instead numbers run by newspapers? The EU is busy figuring out what the number should be. And in a complicated situation like this, it is not surprising that those vary wildly. Plus, the member states need to agree which elements the UK needs to pay, which can be differences of billions also.

Yes, the UK was putting more in. That is irrelevant. They have agreed to certain budgets and should be held accountable for that. The EU is not run on a yearly basis, these are projects that are spread over decades that the UK has also signed off on. So then you can't just leave in the middle and say "I'm not paying that anymore."

 

[UpDownLeftRight]

Yep.

They can't comprehend that letting the UK leave without consequence is liable to lead to other countries in the EU leaving too. Europe have a lot more to worry about here than trade with the UK.

Without consequence?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Without consequence?

Some in the UK were under the impression they could keep open trade with the EU when exiting and have a seamless transition. Obviously, it doesn't work that way, and the EU has no interest in giving the UK the easiest way out.

 

[kmag]

It started off as 50bn, now 100bn and even Barnier has said there isn't an agreed figure.

I don't know the details of what is meant by 'settling the accounts', but how do they come up with any figure, let alone 100bn? Wasn't the UK putting in more than it was taking out?

Barnier doesn't have a figure because until both parties agree a framework there really can't be one. At the moment it's just various bodies (most of whom are not official) throwing out estimates based on differing methodologies

Take the EU's assets, are we including the debt and the liability for that debt in the numbers? Because if they're included it's a much different calculation than if they're not.

It's going to be a complicated negotiation.

And putting in more than taking out doesn't really mean much.

The UK roughly accounted for 10% of EU funding, it should get 10% of the assets and be responsible for the funding commitments it has made and liabilities it contributed to (like pensions for it's EU based civil service)

 

[dc89]

we're so fucked

 

[Zips]

Some people don't realize that they've made a mistake until it hits them in the face. Not just once either, no - once could just cause confusion and thinking it was just a one-off. Some people need to be hit by it repeatedly before they have to admit they were wrong, and it'll be a withering effect as people slowly run out of possible excuses and alternatives to blame instead. A portion will resort to blaming things and people without even the barest of surface logic, making conspiracy theories and the like. Some will never admit they were wrong.

This is where England is heading. The time period after Brexit finishes/its impacts clearly seen will likely be when the majority come to realize they made a mistake. By that point they'll have little recourse but to soldier on. Maybe a change of government and rioting or something if it gets bad enough.

 

[EmiPrime]

Peter Bone(conservative candidate) on Sky News demanding the EU to pay britain half a trillion for brexit haha


"We have all the bargaining chips, they have all to lose"
The delusion is real

From Wikipedia:

Bone is regarded as being on the right-wing of the Conservative Party, and is a member of the socially conservative Cornerstone Group. He has suggested major constitutional changes such as abolition of the Whips office and confirmation of new Cabinet appointees.[23] His criticisms of the NHS include a 2007 report in which he argued that it "would not be out of place in Stalin's Russia".[24] He has voted to lower the abortion time limit to twelve weeks and voted against abolishing the offences of blasphemy and blasphemous libel. He has urged the Charity Commission to award the tax breaks of registration to any legal faith group.[25] The abortion time limit vote failed, the blasphemy vote passed, and tax breaks were not awarded.[26][27]

Bone opposed the introduction of the National Minimum Wage, which he claimed would "condemn hundreds of thousands to the dole queue", and later backed a private member's bill tabled by his colleague Christopher Chope proposing to enable employees to opt out of the minimum wage.[7]

Bone described government proposals to introduce same-sex marriage rights as "completely nuts".[28] He subsequently voted against the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013.[29]

In 2013 Bone was one of four MPs who camped outside Parliament in a move to facilitate parliamentary debate on what they called an "Alternative Queen's Speech" – an attempt to show what a future Conservative government might deliver.[18][30] Some 42 policies were listed including reintroduction of the death penalty and conscription, privatizing the BBC, banning the burka in public places and preparation to leave the European Union.[30] The Daily Telegraph believes the whips sent Edward Leigh to try to persuade the group not to table the amendments.[30] Bone blamed the Liberal Democrats for tying David Cameron's hands.[18]

A prominent Eurosceptic, Bone has often been named as a potential defector to the United Kingdom Independence Party. Bone described UKIP's emergence as a "good thing for British politics", and criticised his own party for "neglecting" the views of traditional Conservatives on other issues such as immigration, but said he intended to campaign for withdrawal from the EU from within the Conservative Party[31]

Peter Bone advocates the privatisation of the NHS, having stated that the service would not look out of place in Stalinist Russia.[32]

Bone is a vocal proponent of the return of traditional blue British passports, adding his support to The Sun's official campaign on 4 August 2016.[33] On 2 April 2017, after the announcement of the £500 million redesign, he claimed that "a new re-designed passport is one of the advantages of not being part of the EU super-state", we went on to state that "if we’re having a new passport, let's have it blue."[34]

So evil and stupid that he is pretty much a living parody of a baby boomer Tory.

 

[demosthenes]

This will never get old.

 

[Symphonia]

Thats a Merkel Quote...

Well, damn. I should read properly.

 

[Kyoufu]

Should have signed a prenup.

 

[CalamityPixel]

Time to call Wonga

 

[MarkMclovin]

.

.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Got]

It's funny how people still argue this isn't real so they can feel better about their Leave vote.

they'd rather not face the fact that they backed a xenophobic idea and came out looking quite foolish and ignorant. makes sense

 

[boneyjangles]

Seems we can have right wing parties, ultra ring wing nationalist parties, but no party to get behind ignoring this tiny majority and just carrying on in the EU as we've been doing our whole lifetimes?

"Normality" is now so unthinkable, so radical that no party even goes close to suggesting it - shit.

 

[Angel Whispers]

Brexit is like Donald Trump levels of stupidity. And for some reason UK lacks checks and balances that prevent shitty tribalistic outcomes.

And holy fuck the boomer generation absolutely destroyed this country.

They gorged themselves on the public wealth during Thatcher. Got rich by mortgaged a younger generations future.

Now no longer content with fucking over a single generation with their dog shit policies. They gottah leave a shit stain legacy.

Sign me the fuck up when the riots start. Let's Bastille Day some Baby Boomer Tory cunts.

Let's bring some medievalists social punishments back.

Hey Theresa we had a referendum, and the will of the British public is we tie you to a fast car and see how long you last.

Hahaha!! Brilliant!!

 

[Bobnob]

Could be white people ? doesn't change the fact over crowding is real.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Could be white people ? doesn't change the fact over crowding is real.

Sure, that is what that poster is about...

 

[Got]

Could be white people ? doesn't change the fact over crowding is real.

If that's what you need to say to yourself to excuse your bigotry, sure, you do you.

 

[danowat]

Could be white people ? doesn't change the fact over crowding is real.

It's Nazi propaganda is what it is.

 

[shem935]

Will never cease to amuse me at the continued surprise of leave that the EU would want to twist the knife. They have all the cards, all the capital, and all the motivation and incentive to do so. And everyone told you that before you voted.

Also:

It's about overcrowding guyz come on.

 

[Bobnob]

Sure, that is what that poster is about...

That's how i see it, i can't see it as anything else, like i have friends from alot of backgrounds vote leave. 99.9% of them i wouldn't call racist. BTW i have never seen that poster before.

 

[danowat]

That's how i see it, i can't see it as anything else, like i have friends from alot of backgrounds vote leave. 99.9% of them i wouldn't call racist. BTW i have never seen that poster before.

With a population of under 700 per square mile, we're far from overcrowded.

 

[Bobnob]

With a population of under 700 per square mile, we're far from overcrowded.

Its over a 1000 in England.

 

[danowat]

Its over a 1000 in England.

It's Great Britain, how far do you want to drill down to reinforce your point?, county?, city?, town?, street?.

The line goes where you say it goes I take it.

 

[APZonerunner]

While obviously xenophobia and racism played a role, I think people often forget also that areas that you'd expect based on that to vote remain did not. IE, vast swathes of places like Birmingham and Leeds and such and wards within them that are majority non-white voting leave not even by a little bit, but decisively.

I'm no leave voter, but I think part of the issue with the whole debate is it's been consistently distracted by the discussion about the role of race and xenophobia in it all.

 

[ClosingADoor]

That's how i see it, i can't see it as anything else, like i have friends from alot of backgrounds vote leave. 99.9% of them i wouldn't call racist. BTW i have never seen that poster before.

You really see that poster and think the intent is to talk about overcrowding instead of refugees?

Now, I've argued about my stance on refugees and how the EU deals with it multiple times on this forum, since I think the current policy is not a good one. But this has nothing to do with overcrowding.

It does not matter if you happen to have some friends who vote leave and are totally not racist. I am not saying they are. But it is clear what the intent of the poster is. Farage even said so:

Challenged about its message, Farage said: “This is a photograph – an accurate, undoctored photograph – taken on 15 October last year following Angela Merkel’s call in the summer and, frankly, if you believe, as I have always believed, that we should open our hearts to genuine refugees, that’s one thing.

“But, frankly, as you can see from this picture, most of the people coming are young males and, yes, they may be coming from countries that are not in a very happy state, they may be coming from places that are poorer than us, but the EU has made a fundamental error that risks the security of everybody.”

Not a word about overcrowding.

 

[Bobnob]

It's Great Britain, how far do you want to drill down to reinforce your point?, county?, city?, town?, street?.

The line goes where you say it goes I take it.

Really, when Scotland as around 150psm and the majority voted remain.

 

[Joni]

Could be white people ? doesn't change the fact over crowding is real.

Really, when Scotland as around 150psm.

You have a distribution problem. Not a crowding problem. And that is likely because everyone wants to live in cities like London and don't mind a lot of people living there.

 

[danowat]

Really, when Scotland as around 150psm and the majority voted remain.

So you're saying there is a direct correlation between population density and how people voted in Brexit?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Really, when Scotland as around 150psm and the majority voted remain.

If you think it is overcrowded, move to Scotland I guess?

Spoiler

As long as you still can

Yes, England is pretty busy. This has up- and downsides. But a poster of refugees is not a statement against overcrowding no matter how you want to twist it.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

While obviously xenophobia and racism played a role, I think people often forget also that areas that you'd expect based on that to vote remain did not. IE, vast swathes of places like Birmingham and Leeds and such and wards within them that are majority non-white voting leave not even by a little bit, but decisively.

I'm no leave voter, but I think part of the issue with the whole debate is it's been consistently distracted by the discussion about the role of race and xenophobia in it all.

Yes, because at no point could they ever win the economic debate. That's why it's 100% about race and xenophobia.

What we're about to see is what happens when rhetoric, racism and bullshit meet this uncomfortable "liberal social justice warrior" known as, reality.

This is why all these Brexiteers sound like absolute fucking morons on TV. It's 100% rhetoric. Surfing on a wave of anger all the way to fucking nowhere fast.

 

[Bobnob]

So you're saying there is a direct correlation between population density and how people voted in Brexit?

I think there is, and like a previous poster said "a distribution problem". With this and our poor previous and present politician's i'm not sure how anybody expected a different outcome.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

I think there is, and like a previous poster said "a distribution problem". With this and our poor previous and present politician's i'm not sure how anybody expected a different outcome.

I thought the urban areas were mainly remain with the rural empty areas being mostly brexit, no?

 

[danowat]

I think there is, and like a previous poster said "a distribution problem". With this and our poor previous and present politician's i'm not sure how anybody expected a different outcome.

You think, or you know?, big difference.

Our county is probably one of the least dense in the country, and it was firmly brexit.

 

[tuxfool]

It started off as 50bn, now 100bn and even Barnier has said there isn't an agreed figure.

I don't know the details of what is meant by 'settling the accounts', but how do they come up with any figure, let alone 100bn? Wasn't the UK putting in more than it was taking out?

This has already been explained multiple times in this thread.

 

[tuxfool]

I think there is, and like a previous poster said "a distribution problem". With this and our poor previous and present politician's i'm not sure how anybody expected a different outcome.

Err. London voted Remain for the most part...

 

[Bobnob]

nvm

 

[danowat]

Wales? Think, and more likely a distribution probem. I'm sorry but i'm not going to think half of our population are racist.

You can call it what you like (maybe racist is a bit strong, xenophobia, fear or just plain ignorance might be better), but it is what it is.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

Wales? Think, and more likely a distribution probem. I'm sorry but i'm not going to think half of our population are racist.

It wouldn't surprise me. Though the Brexit referendum isn't our population total. Those politically activated? 50% being racist? Sure why not.

 

[KingSnake]

Could be white people ? doesn't change the fact over crowding is real.

Lol, overcrowding. Because that's a picture of people entering UK, right?

FFS.

 

[danm999]

Overcrowding is truly an absurd argument. By and large rural areas (ie low density population areas) voted Leave and cities (or high population density areas) voted Remain.

 

[Carl2291]

Overcrowding is truly an absurd argument. By and large rural areas (ie low density population areas) voted Leave and cities (or high population density areas) voted Remain.

Overcrowding isn't necessarily down to population density. Think school places, housing struggles, hospital wait times. These are real problems for people outside of high density areas.

This is primarily the fault of our own government, but if you go ask John Smith in the street in Wakefield about it he's gonna tell you there's too many immigrants coming in rather than blame the government for not keeping up with demand.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Could be white people ? doesn't change the fact over crowding is real.

What do you mean "Could be white people ?" the photo is clearly not of white people.

 

[JimiNutz]

You have a distribution problem. Not a crowding problem. And that is likely because everyone wants to live in cities like London and don't mind a lot of people living there.

Maybe once all the bankers leave London and the economy hits rock bottom people will stop wanting to live in London so badly?

Maybe then people will spread out around the country more evenly...

I also don't buy the idea that the UK isn't overcrowded. We have a population of 65 million in a nation considerably smaller than France for example (who have a similar sized population). Germany is also a much larger country with a not that much larger population than the UK.

Compared to France and Germany we are definitely overcrowded.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Maybe once all the bankers leave London and the economy hits rock bottom people will stop wanting to live in London so badly?

Maybe then people will spread out around the country more evenly...

I also don't buy the idea that the UK isn't overcrowded. We have a population of 65 million in a nation considerably smaller than France for example (who have a similar sized population). Germany is also a much larger country with a not that much larger population than the UK.

Compared to France and Germany we are definitely overcrowded.

Paris has a higher population density then London though. This stuff really varies by region. Wales and Scotland are nowhere near overcrowded for example.

 

[jimbobsmells]

Maybe once all the bankers leave London and the economy hits rock bottom people will stop wanting to live in London so badly?

Nah, if the economy of London stalls at all I believe the Government would pull out all the stops to get it moving again. That's why I still believe that London is the only truly 'safe' area of the UK from the risks of Brexit.
The City will still have one of the highest concentration of professional talent and skills in Europe, and will attract companies looking to take advantage of that.
Now, Wales? Wales is fucked.

 

[RenditMan]

Looks like the 350 million on the side of that bus was a tad of an understatement.

The more I see this process the more I'm glad we voted out.

They're now just looking to scare the shit of the remain voter base before the election.

It's clear now that federalism is the motive looking at how tightly woven the net is.

 

[Muffin1611]

Looks like the 350 million on the side of that bus was a tad of an understatement.

The more I see this process the more I'm glad we voted out.

They're now just looking to scare the shit of the remain voter base before the election.

It's clear now that federalism is the motive looking at how tightly woven the net is.

The. EU. Did. Not. Release. Those. Numbers.

 

[RenditMan]

You can call it what you like (maybe racist is a bit strong, xenophobia, fear or just plain ignorance might be better), but it is what it is.

Every country with immigration controls is racist?