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[Madness]

To be fair, you could replace the word British with literal every single country that ever was a major power at any point in history (and still exists). France is the same for example, Germany is the exception really (to what extend and up till when is another matter).

Pretty much. Every regional or superpower country does or has done horrible shit in the past. This isn't a UK thing. Look at the US, Japan, China, India, almost every major country. They will never bring up their dark parts or solely focus on them.

It is a balancing act. Push the pendulum too far to one side, it is only a matter of time before it comes swinging back.

 

[timetokill]

There is definitely a tendency among the British to overstate their contributions (while conveniently forgetting the consequences of their imperialism). The weirdest though is downplaying the US involvement in supporting then during wars. There was no way the Allies could keep up with the German war machine without American production.

And in the end, when the war ended, the US was the world's new top superpower, which has continued to this day. That's not coincidence.

 

[Yen]

YouGov found 44 per cent were proud of Britain's history of colonialism while only 21 per cent regretted that it happened. 23 per cent held neither view.

 

[Carl2291]

When a nation so small achieves so much on the world stage, you can bet your arse that the success and achievements are celebrated.

 

[kmag]

When a nation so small achieves so much on the world stage, you can bet your arse that the success and achievements are celebrated.

And the back and bodies upon whom it 'achieved' quickly forgotten.

 

[Derwind]

Here in Canada we barely mention Residential Schools and all the other horrible shit we've done, and continue to do, to Native communities. It's hard to admit you've done awful things in the past and in some cases continue to do terrible things as a country.

OR the history of Africville in Nova Scotia. As a black Canadian, I never even learned even half of the fucked up shit that the Canadian government did when I was school.

 

[convo]

The fact that British people tend to go for, "But America...", is part of the problem.

I remember I was watching an episode of QI where they were talking about American race relations being terrible during World War II, and how they were so much better to black people in the UK at that time. From the way they were talking one would think Britain had solved racism years ago.

Interesting how that whole Imperialism thing is just something that's not to be talked about. It's in bad taste. The past tends to be romanticism and rose-tinted nostalgia, and negativity is met with deflection. I don't think they even realize they are doing it.

Yeah i would have a better impression of the british if it was only for their comedians. But politics in that country is mostly run and influenced by different trash fires.

 

[Carl2291]

And the back and bodies upon whom it 'achieved' quickly forgotten.

Different rules for a different time. They knew no better.

 

[twobear]

One thing that's quite important to remember about the British Empire is that the worst attrocities were systematically erased and hidden from the official history, meaning that stuff like the Jallianwala Bagh massacre are arguably on the palatable end of the things that the colonial governments engaged in. It's not just some cultural Zeitgeist that's leading the UK to look back on the Empire with a rose-tinted fondness, that narrative was deliberately pushed by the people who were in charge of running it.

Different rules for a different time. They knew no better.

Of course they knew better. And besides which, that's not the point. You were talking about the case now; you can't suddenly shift the discussion to a historical perspective.

 

[Pancake Mix]

If the British needed to be reminded about that time we kicked their asses, I can do it.

Regards,

A Smarmy American

Do you need to remember this?

 

[Trojita]

Different rules for a different time. They knew no better.

The fuck?

 

[Slackbladder]

And the back and bodies upon whom it 'achieved' quickly forgotten.

Indeed. It is no surprise that many I know have a somewhat selective memory or viewpoint. It always astonishes me how some genuinely believe the the nation you are randomly born in should somehow demand patriotism which ultimately is wrapped up in jingoism and bigotry.
But then again I don't believe in Nations or borders. I'm far more interested in mankind freeing himself from the shackles of regressive and outdated thinking. The way I see it we're stuck in the same shit we've been in since the Medieval age and what few achievements and little progress we've made is ultimately undone by the same idiot thinking of "oh my country's great because of such and such" whilst the reality is it was only achieved through the exploitation of others. Empire's should not be a source of pride but a warning that there are those who would rule over you because they think it's best for you and them.
Selective historic interpretations ARE dangerous.

'He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.'

George Orwell

 

[Wvrs]

I'd say a big problem here is that history as a subject stops being compulsory for kids in Year 9 (when they're 13 years old) and, before then, most of the curriculum focuses on the Romans, the Normans, the Tudors.

I doubt many Britons could tell you much more about the British Empire other than that we used to have one.

 

[Pancake Mix]

Which coincided with essentially at best the UK rearguarding itself and Germany into a stalemate*. It's a long way from there to the "WE won the war" jingoism we normally get. And even then the Battle of Britain wasn't going to be won without the Polish who half the current generation of Brits are currently demonising (although that shouldn't be much of a surprise given that during the battle of Britain a polish RAF airman was lynched to death in Wapping after ejecting) 303 "Kościuszko" Squadron scored the most kills of any RAF squadron in the battle. 302 "Poznański" Squadron had the 3rd most amount. The Polish pilots were by far the most experienced the RAF had.

*a stalemate it couldn't maintain without US logistical support.

The stalemate couldn't be maintained without the British Empire either, but that's generally acknowledged. The fact that the Nazis couldn't break the stalemate is something to be proud of though.

Okay I understand, given your avatar, this is a sensitive subject for you. I am not "objectively wrong". I never said Germany vs Russia was the ENTIRE war, only that the largest conflicts, the most firepower, the most manpower, the most lives lost etc...were between Germany and Russia. That is "objectively" correct. I'm not saying the US, and the Commonwealth did nothing (as both my Canadian grandparents fought in the war) only that their contributions and losses were, for the most part, shallow in comparison when compared to the size and scope of the Eastern Front. It was obviously a team effort, hence the "Feat."

The bolded is something I agree with, I was replying to your initial assertion. The USSR did suffer the most, but

WWII was basically Germany vs. Russia feat. The Allies. It's not even close.

is inaccurate, especially since the USSR was neutral-friendly with the Nazis until Operation Barbarossa.

 

[Frozenprince]

Different rules for a different time. They knew no better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagossians

They know better now. So what's the excuse for how the Chagossian islanders were and have continued to be treated and denied their right to return home? Less than a decade ago?

 

[Pancake Mix]

For entirely the sake of its history, I'm not totally convinced that England deserves to exist.

I'm kind of joking and kind of not joking. Seems like you'd have to employ some powerful selective thinking to just keep in mind the sunny side of history.

That's vaguely threatening...

Japan, China, Germany, and Belgium have done worse you know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagossians

They know better now. So what's the excuse for how the Chagossian islanders were and have continued to be treated and denied their right to return home?

It's unfortunate, but that region is very strategically important.

 

[D4Danger]

I'd say a big problem here is that history as a subject stops being compulsory for kids in Year 9 (when they're 13 years old) and, before then, most of the curriculum focuses on the Romans, the Normans, the Tudors.

I doubt many Britons could tell you much more about the British Empire other than that we used to have one.

When I did history it focused on 1900 onwards. Even the compulsory classes at a younger age were like you say where they touch on some of the major time periods but there's no "Britannia rules the waves, motherfucker wooo!" jingoistic nonsense some seem to think. I learnt about the good and bad but it was all pretty surface level.

 

[Kthulhu]

Do you need to remember this?

That war ended in a stalemate.

 

[Frozenprince]

It's unfortunate, but that region is very strategically important.

Which is a far cry from "they knew no better".

Which is the point.

 

[Pancake Mix]

That war ended in a stalemate.

Yes, but that's not relevant to the image I posted. You talked about "that time when we kicked their asses", so I linked a time when the opposite was true.

Which is a far cry from "they knew no better".

Which is the point.

Well, it never would have happened now. It was a decision from a less enlightened time.

Also: Give back the Elgin Marbles!

 

[oti]

Also: Give back the Elgin Marbles!

 

[sammex]

I believe this is also know as World Cup 66 syndrome.

We're the best!

 

[User Name Here]

https://www.theguardian.com/culture...-says-former-museum-director?CMP=share_btn_tw



Interesting to note especially given Brexit and the 'special snowflake' insistence that Europe give in to UK demands because 'we're British and don't need Europe'. I'd say this whole Brexit bullshit has opened my eyes on how there is a sense of 'British exceptionalism' even though Americans take most of the flak for believing they're 'exceptional'.

We 'muricans learned a lot from our parent country.

 

[makingmusic476]

Do you need to remember this?

The townspeople of Washington, D.C. welcomed the warmth.

 

[kmag]

Yes, but that's not relevant to the image I posted.



Well, it never would have happened now. It was a decision from a less enlightened time.

Always seems to be the excuse.

Concentration camps in the Boer War. Less enlightened time
Systematic mutilations, rapes and torture then massive cover up in Rhodesia. Didn't know any better.
Chemical warfare on the Kurds. Product of the time.

Never seems to apply to any other country from our lofty parapet. We're awfully quick to moralise (except when it comes to the Saudi's but they're picking up BAE's cheques) for other countries transgressions, quick to forgive ourselves for the litany of abuses.

 

[pa22word]

Never seems to apply to any other country from our lofty parapet. We're awfully quick to moralise (except when it comes to the Saudi's but they're picking up BAE's cheques) for other countries transgressions, quick to forgive ourselves for the litany of abuses.

To be fair, this can be applied to the majority of states in Europe.

Quick to bitch about the US meddling there, while conveniently ignoring (except behind closed doors) the countries who most benefit from the continued flow of cheap oil from the ME is the oil starved western europe. To the point europe has been the one lagging behind keeping pressure on Russia because they want that Gazprom slush.

It just plays well in the newspapers to finger wag at the US for anything and everything wrong in the world. It's going to be interesting to see the EU have to grovel up to ME dictators in the future though as the US becomes a net exporter of oil in the next year or so.

 

[Pancake Mix]

Always seems to be the excuse.

Concentration camps in the Boer War. Less enlightened time
Systematic mutilations, rapes and torture then massive cover up in Rhodesia. Didn't know any better.
Chemical warfare on the Kurds. Product of the time.

Never seems to apply to any other country from our lofty parapet. We're awfully quick to moralise (except when it comes to the Saudi's but they're picking up BAE's cheques) for other countries transgressions, quick to forgive ourselves for the litany of abuses.

Yeah, I know, I know.

That said,

 

[Starwolf_UK]

If you think it is bad now or this is a modern thing; look at what is like in the day. Let's take the Childrens book from 1899; An ABC for Baby Patriots:
http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00086056/00001
But to take some quotes from it:

B stands for Battle
By which England’s name
Has for ever been covered
With glory and fame.

M is for Magnates
So great and so good,
They sit on gold chairs
And eat Turtle for food.

N is the Navy
We keep at Spithead,
It’s a sight that makes foreigners
Wish they were dead.

0 is the Ocean
Where none but a fool
Would ever dare question
Our title to rule.

Sorry I just to thrown in the magnate one in (it's page 26 if you also want to see the illustration of Donald Trump with no hair).

Spoiler

I've been meaning to make a thread about the book but never got round to it so, enjoy.

 

[Stinkles]

How Brits believe WWII was won:

 

[Beefy]

Always seems to be the excuse.

Concentration camps in the Boer War. Less enlightened time
Systematic mutilations, rapes and torture then massive cover up in Rhodesia. Didn't know any better.
Chemical warfare on the Kurds. Product of the time.

Never seems to apply to any other country from our lofty parapet. We're awfully quick to moralise (except when it comes to the Saudi's but they're picking up BAE's cheques) for other countries transgressions, quick to forgive ourselves for the litany of abuses.

I would have moaned and slagged off Britain, if I was around back then as well. To me anything I see as wrong I will speak against.

How Brits believe WWII was won

Shame he was a twat.

 

[The Awesomest]

If the British needed to be reminded about that time we kicked their asses, I can do it.

Regards,

A Smarmy American

You mean with help from the French and Germans, right?

 

[Switch Back 9]

Every major power in the history of the world was a bastard. You don't get to the top without cracking skulls and stealing shit. Any other view is simply incorrect. From Assyria and Rome to Britain and the USA, in order to BE a major power you have to do awful shit to a lot of people that don't deserve it.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

You could replace the word British with American and it'd read pretty well.

I don't know much about Napoleon and I'm not downplaying America's role in both the Pacific and Euro theaters in WW2. Allies likely wouldn't have won without them.

BUT people here constantly forget that Germany invading Russia and Russia paying in as many lives as they did was just as big a contribution. If not bigger at least in the Euro theater.

I guess we are probably culturally more similar to England then anyone else so it makes sense. The bit about Napeleon just struct me though because it's so familiar.

I dunno. I agree to a degree, but I don't know if the Russian example is very good. I hardly hear WWII talks where Russia's large contribution isn't brought up. You wanna talk about people who we don't get shit for recognition, I'd put countries like Canada on the list.

 

[Pancake Mix]

Every major power in the history of the world was a bastard. You don't get to the top without cracking skulls and stealing shit. Any other view is simply incorrect. From Assyria and Rome to Britain and the USA, in order to BE a major power you have to do awful shit to a lot of people that don't deserve it.

This, this is true.

 

[Switch Back 9]

I dunno. I agree to a degree, but I don't know if the Russian example is very good. I hardly hear WWII talks where Russia's large contribution isn't brought up. You wanna talk about people who we don't get shit for recognition, I'd put countries like Canada on the list.

As a Canadian with family that fought in both World Wars, I've accepted the fact the we, and the rest of the Commonwealth, simply fall under the greater umbrella of "Britain" when speaking of war contributions. It sucks but whatever. Aussies, Kiwis, Indians, African troops from many different countries etc... all fought bravely and kicked ass but rarely get mentioned. It is what it is.

 

[Beefy]

Every major power in the history of the world was a bastard. You don't get to the top without cracking skulls and stealing shit. Any other view is simply incorrect. From Assyria and Rome to Britain and the USA, in order to BE a major power you have to do awful shit to a lot of people that don't deserve it.

Yep.

 

[Fluvian]

It's weird how we teach even recent British history. When I was in school all they would tell you about the England in WW2 is that everyone keep a stiff upper lip and did their part for the war effort. No one ever talked about what was really going on, the people freaking out, the looting, people having sex on the streets and in bomb shelters.

They don't teach us about what our ancestors actually went through they just tell us all the cool sounding shit, heres what my school history lesson on Japanese work camps taught me "the soldiers never lost spirit and took pride in their work even if it was for the Japanese (yes my primary school education mostly consisted of outdated inaccurate movies) and heres what my grand father who was in one for a year told me about those camps "We pretty much lived in our own shit, at least 3 of us died every day and we were barely fed anything, I broke down crying every chance I got"

We really need to change how we teach our history in this country, our history is filled to the brim with unpleasant shit no one wants to talk about, everything from the Opium war to the potato famine.

 

[Polioliolio]

Conservatives are everywhere, and they're assholes.

 

[EdwardTeach]

When was this guy last in a school? Because what he said is completely false.

For starters it is quite possible to pass entirely through school without learning anything about the Napoleonic wars.

If you do study the battle of Waterloo, for example as part of A-level then yes of course you would be well aware that it was a coalition which defeated Napoleon and the Prussians has a massive role. It would really be impossible to study 19th century German history without being aware of this.

 

[Hermii]

I think almost all countries does this to some degree. Exceptionalism is never good, but some are more extreme than others cough USA cough.

 

[Bold One]

Brits are suckers for our own history, fetishisation of WW2 has always struck me as insidious.

 

[petghost]

i dno most times i hear british people talk about the empire or whatever its in a pretty self deprecating way. i think most people i know who are on the far end of the left see western civilization's history as like the worst thing that ever happened and something that the west needs to atone for. i think that kind of self flagellation is easily just as dangerous as fetishizing a fantastical view of your own history.

but yeah nationlist history is pretty bad. like for some reason turkey at large seemingly has no sense of historical guilt for the crimes committed by the ottoman empire (including a genocide attempt).

 

[Slackbladder]

When was this guy last in a school? Because what he said is completely false.

For starters it is quite possible to pass entirely through school without learning anything about the Napoleonic wars.

If you do study the battle of Waterloo, for example as part of A-level then yes of course you would be well aware that it was a coalition which defeated Napoleon and the Prussians has a massive role. It would really be impossible to study 19th century German history without being aware of this.

I think he's talking more about popular culture and media. I don't read The Sun but do you think they would give a balanced view of history? Or The Mail? Or UKIP?
When I was at school over 30 years ago we had only really started considering History as being more than just British success after success. Sure we learnt of WWI and II and all the fucking Kings and Queens but at a typical comprehensive in the UK in 1982 you'd be hard pressed to learn anything about British actions in Africa, India etc (apart from the Boar War perhaps and Mountbatten maybe). I certainly hope that the National Curriculum has advanced since then.

 

[Theonik]

and British spirit!!!!

Britain provided the bants.

 

[30yearsofhurt]

I believe this is also know as World Cup 66 syndrome.

We're the best!

Should I change my name to 50yearsofhurt?

 

[Caipirinha]

I had a conversation with a guy in Belfast who praised all of the atrocities committed during Colonolialism. He said they were good tactics.

Felt ill as he justified genocide and war crimes.

I read this quote today made by Nassau William Senior a political advisor that the Great Irish Famine of 1845 "would not kill more than one million people, and that would scarcely be enough to do any good".

If you think English pie and chip racists are bad, NI unionists are basically fascists. Feel bad for the poor Irish who have to live with them.

 

[Guy.brush]

Unveiled in 2012.

 

[paperboywriter]

Downplaying the amount of effort and death in other countries other than Germany, Russia and the us is blatantly ignorant and offensive to all those people who fought and, by the millions, died. Ww2 was one of the biggest mass graves in the history of mankind and those who took part for whatever reason deserve some respect. It shaped our world to this day and the outcome did so for the better for everyone.

Get your shit together, this is not a penis measuring contest.

Ps: this is a rant directed at people saying Britain's part in ww2 wasn't all that important, not an excuse for fetishizing the good old times of the empire. Obviously.

 

[kharma45]

If you think English pie and chip racists are bad, NI unionists are basically fascists. Feel bad for the poor Irish who have to live with them.

I love sweeping generalisations. Hardcore DUP members and the like don't represent half of NI. Don't be such a tit.

 

[Hazzuh]

I'd say a big problem here is that history as a subject stops being compulsory for kids in Year 9 (when they're 13 years old) and, before then, most of the curriculum focuses on the Romans, the Normans, the Tudors.

I doubt many Britons could tell you much more about the British Empire other than that we used to have one.

Yep, it's less that people have a romantic view of the Empire etc and more that they have no view at all. Non-british people frequently talk about how British people still think the Empire exists but that seems 100% wrong to me, most British people don't know the first thing about the Empire except for some vague idea that it existed at some point in the past. There is some kind of bizarre national amnesia in which nothing happened in Britain between the Spanish Armada and WW1 except for the abolition of the slave trade and the invention of the spinning jenny.

The reason most Brits couldn't tell you the battle of Waterloo involved any Prussians is because most of their knowledge of it comes from the ABBA song.