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[Alcibiades]

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20040810-100238-4903r.htm

Mr. Kerry's actual decisionmaking ability, however, was exposed by Mr. Kerry himself July 8 during an appearance on CNN's "Larry King Live." Asked where he was that fateful morning, he said he was in a meeting with Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle and Sens. Barbara Boxer and Harry Reid. "We watched the second plane come in to the building," Mr. Kerry said. "And we shortly thereafter sat down at the table and then we just realized nobody could think, and then boom, right behind us, we saw the cloud of explosion at the Pentagon." (Emphasis mine)

The second plane hit the World Trade Center at 9:03 a.m., and American Airlines Flight 77 struck the Pentagon at 9:37 a.m. According to Kerry, he and his fellow senators sat frozen and indecisive for 34 minutes. Mr. Kerry is dismissive of the president's explanation he did not wish to seem panicked and so remained seated for 7 minutes (while aides were busily trying to acquire more information), yet Mr. Kerry admits to not knowing what to do for 34 minutes.

of course none of this should really be relevant, but did Kerry really just sit there for 34 min.? I imainge their location was way more secure though than a public elementary school...

interesting note about Cal Thomas (who's a FOX News contributer during the weekends), he's actually a friend of Ted Kennedy, even though Thomas is a pretty strong conservative

 

[Socreges]

Was John Kerry the President of the USA during 9/11? I can't remember. Someone refresh my memory!

 

[Slurpy]

Please, some tell me this point of this fucking post, or even what its supposed to imply.

 

[Fifty]

I'd like to know as well. Surely you had a reason for posting this.

 

[Hitman]

Quite possibly the stupid article ever. So he sat there for 34 minutes. Woopty fuckin doo.

 

[Slurpy]

He should have jumped out the fucking window, obviously. Everyone knows that.

 

[Pattergen]

You aren't going to find a point in the middle of that cake!!

 

[Alcibiades]

well, maybe everyone was pretty shaken by the 9/11 incident, including civilians, congressional leaders, and even our President, so mabye it wasn't so out-of-the-ordinary for Bush to sit there for 7 minutes as people realized what to do. how do we know Kerry would have been less shaken, even if he had been President?

the point is, nobody was really prepared for this (I'm sure the case is different now)

 

[Hitokage]

So Senator Kerry and three other senators were in a meeting while it happened, all in no position to do anything...

Police, National Guard, and Military are parts of the executive branch, you know.

 

[bishoptl]

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20040810-100238-4903r.htm

of course none of this should really be relevant

Up until this point, you were doing quite well.

The President of the United States doesn't sit around an elementary school with his thumb lodged in his ass for 10 minutes while planes are crashing into major metropolitan areas. He excuses himself and gets to work. What Kerry - or anybody else not directly connected to the White House administration or national security, for that matter - did is irrelevant.

Talk about a red herring. Is this what it's sunk to now?

 

[cvxfreak]

Up until this point, you were doing quite well.

The President of the United States doesn't sit around an elementary school with his thumb lodged in his ass for 10 minutes while planes are crashing into major metropolitan areas. He excuses himself and gets to work. What Kerry - or anybody else not directly connected to the White House administration or national security, for that matter - did is irrelevant.

Talk about a red herring. Is this what it's sunk to now?

IAWTP

 

[Dan]

the point is, nobody was really prepared for this (I'm sure the case is different now)

No, of course no one was prepared. The only ones prepared were the terrorists. As much as I hate this issue and see it as irrelevant, George W Bush was President and Commander in Chief of the United States of America when alerted to a plane hitting the World Trade Center. If anything, the fact that everyone was so ill-prepared requires faster action.

I just hate this issue. If something of 9/11's magnitude happened again, A LOT of things would be done differently. Was there anything Bush could or was willing to do that could have used those 7 extra minutes? Probably not. Does it matter now? Not really. 9/11 happened. Nothing's going to change that. These politicians need to spend less time criticizing the least influential mistakes made by both candidates and more time looking at the tough questions, issues and policies that the US has to deal with.

 

[MetatronM]

Yeah, really. What should Kerry have done in that situation? He wasn't in a position that calls for immediate emergency reaction.

And besides, at least he was with other senators at the time. I'm sure they were talking and discussing what was going on even if they were dumbfounded and shocked, whereas the President basically ignored it for several minutes. That said, information was rather sketchy and discombobulated at first, so really, I don't blame the President TOO MUCH for not acting instantaneously, but the fact of the matter is that the job of the President is radically different from the job of a senator and needs to be judged accordingly.

In the end, though, whether you're talking about the President sitting in an elementary school for 10 minutes or Kerry sitting in a Senate meeting room for 30 minutes, you're debating an issue that had NO IMPACT ON ANYTHING THAT OCCURED IN WASHINGTON AND NEW YORK THAT DAY WHATSOEVER. It's not like they would have stopped flying planes into buildings the instant Bush got out of his chair.

This is just a "political" argument that exists solely for the sake of argument.

 

[Alcibiades]

These politicians need to spend less time criticizing the least influential mistakes made by both candidates and more time looking at the tough questions, issues and policies that the US has to deal with.

in case you hadn't noticed (or missed the Democratic Convention), the Kerry campaign spent 4 days making Vietnam the issue (and Kerry's being there and Bush being AWOL).

now there's Veteran's for Kerry and Veteran's Against Kerry, it's ridiculous, why aren't they talking about intelligence reform and world issues like Isreali conflict/UN corruption/China-North Korea situation?

As much as I dislike Kerry for not shutting up about his service (McCain was always more careful and less forceful about his service, and he spent years imprisoned and tortured), I can't imagine people spending money for the new book, that's ridiculous, what difference does it make?

 

[DJ_Tet]

IAWTP

IBYD


God forbid the President sit for several minutes gathering his wits when we all agree there was nothing he could do (per previous argument). This is a stupid argument, I watched footage from 11 am (when I was awoken by my gf) to 7 pm without having a clue what to do.

Be glad I wasn't President, and be glad Kerry wasn't President. No one knew what the fuck to do, take yourself back to that time. Erase all the damage done by erroneous plots, just take yourself back to 8:50 am on 9/11/2001. A plane hits a building. And then a second. What do YOU do sherlock? Do you startle a bunch of kids for no reason (i.e. you run out without having a reason or plan), or do you just play everything cool while trying to figure out what the fuck is going on?

Don't answer, I know the answer is different than mine.

That said, this is the least inflammatory part of Fahrenheit 9/11, but the most brought up part. Wonder why...

 

[Dan]

in case you hadn't noticed (or missed the Democratic Convention), the Kerry campaign spent 4 days making Vietnam the issue (and Kerry's being there and Bush being AWOL).

now there's Veteran's for Kerry and Veteran's Against Kerry, it's ridiculous, why aren't they talking about intelligence reform and world issues like Isreali conflict/UN corruption/China-North Korea situation?

Huh? I'm complaining about both parties making stupid shit the center of this election.

*confused*

 

[Alcibiades]

Huh? I'm complaining about both parties making stupid shit the center of this election.

*confused*

well, it was a general "in case you hadn't noticed", not a sarcastic one, as in, "oh, and did you notice". I was attempting to re-inforce some of the points

and I agree both parties are "making stupid shit" the center of the election...

Can't wait for whatever October surprises will pop up (or something similar to the Bush-arrested thing 3 days before the election back in 2000)...

 

[Fusebox]

Kerry probably just leaned back in his chair and said 'Thank God I'm not in power right now!'

 

[Socreges]

Be glad I wasn't President, and be glad Kerry wasn't President. No one knew what the fuck to do, take yourself back to that time. Erase all the damage done by erroneous plots, just take yourself back to 8:50 am on 9/11/2001. A plane hits a building. And then a second. What do YOU do sherlock? Do you startle a bunch of kids for no reason (i.e. you run out without having a reason or plan), or do you just play everything cool while trying to figure out what the fuck is going on?

You play everything cool while trying to figure out what the fuck is going on. Problem: Bush couldn't very well have done that in a classroom. Therefore:

"Children, if you'll excuse me, it's been wonderful reading with you, but I have some business to attend to."

Listen, no one has ever suggested that he could have saved the day. Or changed the course of ANYTHING for that matter. But he should have left. As far as I'm concerned, it's that simple. That he didn't... well, that's the least of his flaws, I guess.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Stupid shit usually becomes the focus of the media. I guess at least matters of war and terrorist attacks are somewhat more important than misquoting Gore about the Internet and talking about Bush being a big drinker 20 years ago.

 

[maharg]

Could no one EVER. AGAIN. bring up the idea that him leaving would 'startle the children'? Whether you think what he did/didn't do was right or not, please don't ever insult other people by saying this kind of bullshit.

 

[Socreges]

Could no one EVER. AGAIN. bring up the idea that him leaving would 'startle the children'? Whether you think what he did/didn't do was right or not, please don't ever insult other people by saying this kind of bullshit.

I like to imagine what scenario they picture if Bush were to actually leave prematurely:

"CHILDREN! There are planes flying into buildings! Thousands dying! Blood EVERYWHERE! OK gotta go!"

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

What exactly was Kerry supposed to do? Do Bush's job while he sat at an elementary school doing nothing?

 

[DCharlie]

My reaction watchin on Japanese tv was this

"Wow - no wonder that plane crashed into the WTC, look at how close this one is comi.... oh....

(Harry Hill)... what are the chances of that happening, hey??? (/Harry Hill)"

It took me a good 10 minutes to even register what was going on.
Following this i drank lots of booze,
i didn't have sex,
then nearly choked on a pretzel.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I like to imagine what scenario they picture if Bush were to actually leave prematurely:

"CHILDREN! There are planes flying into buildings! Thousands dying! Blood EVERYWHERE! OK gotta go!"

If only there was another season of That's My Bush!

 

[DJ_Tet]

Could no one EVER. AGAIN. bring up the idea that him leaving would 'startle the children'? Whether you think what he did/didn't do was right or not, please don't ever insult other people by saying this kind of bullshit.

Don't tell me what to say. And don't question why our President hesitated in the crossfire. God forbid you think of the children first. Thank god your ass isn't a teacher. Me thinks children are a little more impressionable than you give them credit for..

 

[maharg]

He was sitting on his ass reading a book. What difference did it make him leaving politely seven minutes later, vs. him leaving politely when he heard.

Where's the trauma? Seriously?

And as I said, I don't care what you think of whether it was right or wrong, or what he was thinking. I don't agree with certain views of it, but this is different. It's pandering to an emotional response (omg the children) and it does not make sense. Either defend the idea logically, or please never use it again. I'm asking you to not use it, hence the please. I would not 'make' or 'tell' you to do anything, but I can ask you to please stop insulting me and others you are debating with on this forum.

Oh, and since we're slinging the don'ts, I'll thank you not to tell me what to question. I'll question whatever I damn well please, and everyone else should too.

 

[Slurpy]

Don't tell me what to say. And don't question why our President hesitated in the crossfire. God forbid you think of the children first. Thank god your ass isn't a teacher. Me thinks children are a little more impressionable than you give them credit for..

Is this guy for real? AN he can question the president whenever the fuck he wants. Think of the children? WTF?

 

[dog$]

It took me a good 10 minutes to even register what was going on.
Following this i drank lots of booze,
i didn't have sex,
then nearly choked on a pretzel.

President Bush has hacked his first GAF account!
Good user choice for the first reply, Sir. *salutes*

 

[Shinobi]

well, maybe everyone was pretty shaken by the 9/11 incident, including civilians, congressional leaders, and even our President, so mabye it wasn't so out-of-the-ordinary for Bush to sit there for 7 minutes as people realized what to do. how do we know Kerry would have been less shaken, even if he had been President?

the point is, nobody was really prepared for this (I'm sure the case is different now)

Kerry was likely glued to the TV set in disbelief like everyone else who had access to one was, watching the images unfold. Bush was glued to the pages of "My Pet Goat". Hardly comparable scenarios.

 

[DJ_Tet]

Is this guy for real? AN he can question the president whenever the fuck he wants. Think of the children? WTF?

Obviously you don't know any teachers.

BTW the President can pretty much do what he wants, if his name is Bush he'll be criticized anyway. No one but Bush thought there were WMD. Everyone but Bush would have reacted immediately. Et fucking cetera.

 

[Mumbles]

in case you hadn't noticed (or missed the Democratic Convention), the Kerry campaign spent 4 days making Vietnam the issue (and Kerry's being there and Bush being AWOL).

now there's Veteran's for Kerry and Veteran's Against Kerry, it's ridiculous, why aren't they talking about intelligence reform and world issues like Isreali conflict/UN corruption/China-North Korea situation?

Given the (unfair in many cases) stereotype of democrats as unwilling to go to war, and the current situation, it makes perfect sense for Kerry to emphasize his service record. Besides which, he does discuss other issues - although certainly not at a convention, which these days is a place to toss out a bunch of feel-good sound bites and nothing else.

Don't tell me what to say. And don't question why our President hesitated in the crossfire. God forbid you think of the children first. Thank god your ass isn't a teacher. Me thinks children are a little more impressionable than you give them credit for..

"think of the children first" doesn't really work when an unknown number of children's (and adults') lives are in imminent danger, you know.

 

[DJ_Tet]

"think of the children first" doesn't really work when an unknown number of children's (and adults') lives are in imminent danger, you know.

Yeah I know. Neither does "flip the fuck out in front of 30 kids." No one holds themselves to the standard that they hold the president, which is understandable, but no one holds themselves to the standard that they hold the president either....do the math.

Everyone's freaking superman until the time comes to shine.

 

[Fjord]

*cough* Double standard! *cough*

 

[Socreges]

Kerry was likely glued to the TV set in disbelief like everyone else who had access to one was, watching the images unfold. Bush was glued to the pages of "My Pet Goat". Hardly comparable scenarios.

Who are you to say? Have you ever actually read "My Pet Goat"? I sincerely doubt it. Otherwise you might acknowledge how it is in all respects a riveting, gut-wrenching tale of a boy, his goat, and how um.. the goat is his pet.

Ground-breaking stuff!

*cough* Double standard! *cough*

No, see, it's not. Read the thread.

 

[Shinobi]

No one's saying he should've flipped the fuck out. All he had to do was whisper back to his aide, have the aide whisper to the teacher that something urgent had come up, and then have that relayed to the teacher. None of the kids needed to know details, or even how serious things were. Even if he goes into his limo and does nothing, at least he's doing so out of view of the cameras.

Half of politics is image. Speech making is a huge part of that, but appearances play a large part in that role too. Bush knows this...his infamous "If you're not with us, you're against us" speech days later was meant to project an image that the US wouldn't take shit lying down from anyone. The image gleaned from those 7 minutes on 9/11 just looks horrible. I could've understood two or three minutes of not reacting immediately, but not seven.

No one said being President is easy. But he's getting paid well to be one, and will reap the benefits for the rest of his life even if he's voted out in three months. So I have no sympathy for him. He wanted the gig even when he hadn't legally won the election. So if you're gonna be President, you'd better be smarter, faster and better then the average Joe during crisis time. Fuck the excuses.

 

[Shinobi]

Who are you to say? Have you ever actually read "My Pet Goat"? I sincerely doubt it. Otherwise you might acknowledge how it is in all respects a riveting, gut-wrenching tale of a boy, his goat, and how um.. the goat is his pet.

Ground-breaking stuff!

 

[RobotChant]

You are the President of the United States of America, plus you have various handlers and somehow you all aren't clever enough to excuse yourselves from a room full of children?

 

[Miguel]

He should have been out of there in precisely 3 minutes and 23 seconds.

 

[DarienA]

well, maybe everyone was pretty shaken by the 9/11 incident, including civilians, congressional leaders, and even our President, so mabye it wasn't so out-of-the-ordinary for Bush to sit there for 7 minutes as people realized what to do. how do we know Kerry would have been less shaken, even if he had been President?

the point is, nobody was really prepared for this (I'm sure the case is different now)

Hi this makes no sense and is a pretty poorly conceived post/thread.... thanks.. okbyebyenow.

Yeah I know. Neither does "flip the fuck out in front of 30 kids." No one holds themselves to the standard that they hold the president, which is understandable, but no one holds themselves to the standard that they hold the president either....do the math.

Everyone's freaking superman until the time comes to shine.

Yes because his only choices were:

a) continue to read;
b) flip the fuck out.

Incredible logic!

 

[SKluck]

It's been 3 fucking years already, who cares anymore?

 

[Baron Aloha]

so mabye it wasn't so out-of-the-ordinary for Bush to sit there for 7 minutes as people realized what to do. how do we know Kerry would have been less shaken, even if he had been President?

Read the 9/11 report. He sat there for 7 minutes and then he gave a speech and had a photo-op in the school's library that lasted an additional 20 minutes!! For Bush it was pretty much business-as-usual in those moments following the attacks. The link below does a good job of showing his timeline on that day.


President Bush's Movements & Actions on 9/11:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/essayaninterestingday.html

 

[dog$]

Seriously.

Wait for an end of a sentence. They're not long in kid's books, as far as I can recall.
Stand up.
"Kids, I have to take a Presidential leak. Please excuse me."
Exit.

 

[Zaptruder]

In all seriousness though...

The critcisms leveled against Bush have a good point; in the face of disaster; told that two planes had struck prime US targets, with the high possibility of more targets... it says alot about his speed of judgement and his general leadership ability, that he has to sit there for 10 minutes... start a book reading session to children, before leaving to attend to the matter.

Seriously... how would it have been that damaging to the children if he had apologized; that he had to attend to presidential duties and then take leave and take up as much information from the unfolding events as possible...

What if the terrorists had coordinated dozens of hijackings on dozens of planes? In that case; those 10 minutes he spent scratching his ass reading books to children could have cost hundreds if not thousands more lives.

 

[Mustang]

We wouldn't even be talking about this is Kerry didn't suffer from Foot-In-Mouth disease.

 

[Nerevar]

I'm trying to figure out whether DJ Test is actually being serious in this thread. Are you really suggesting he did the right thing by doing nothing?

 

[DarienA]

We wouldn't even be talking about this is Kerry didn't suffer from Foot-In-Mouth disease.

Hell BOTH of them suffer from that....

 

[dark10x]

The image gleaned from those 7 minutes on 9/11 just looks horrible. I could've understood two or three minutes of not reacting immediately, but not seven.

See, that actually sounds rather funny to me. I don't necessarily support his actions in that situation, but he really is a figurehead in a way. Even if he was the ONLY MAN in the country who could have done anything, how much of a difference would an extra 3-4 minute actually make? What exactly would he have been able to do with those extra few minutes? People are complaining about this situation because it makes it seem as if he doesn't care enough to take action (and hell, perhaps he didn't)...but what additional actions could have been accomplished in that very small time span? I'm going to have to say that absolutely NOTHING would have changed. He isn't just some magical guy who can just warp to the scene of a crisis and save everybody. He could have wasted those extra few minutes at a particularly long traffic light!

So he did something that makes him look like a moron, that's fine. He is a moron. He conveyed the wrong impressions by doing nothing, but really...I don't believe for one second that leaving a few minutes sooner would have done a damn thing. Does anyone REALLY feel that way? That he is SO important and everyone relies SO heavily on him that leaving 4 minutes earlier would have made all the difference in the world?

 

[maharg]

We know that now. Did he know that then?

 

[Claus]

Lets argue about it some more. Maybe if we try hard enough the past will change and Bush will get up out of his seat and kill some Iraqi's.