Caitlyn Jenner poses on the cover of Vanity Fair

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Pankratous said:
Why is Jenner getting so much attention exactly? There have been other transvestites... thousands of them. This isn't a new thing.

I mean, good for her and all that. But I'm seeing it everywhere and wondering why.
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Well for one, a trasvestite is an entirely different type of person. Caitlyn is not a trasvestite.

And again, we go back a few squares on this thread.
 
sploatee said:
I think that the issue isn't really tact, it's the view underneath the tact. If you see a trans woman as less or other than a woman, you don't really have any grounds to claim that you respect trans people or a degree of respect.

If a racist has the tact not to make racist comments to a black person, but is still racist, it makes no difference (to me).

It's upsetting for me as a trans person, but all I can do is live my life. I can't spend my life trying to change people's minds. I don't wish you any "ill will", but it's very difficult for me to be around or talk to people who hold that view, even if they are polite and tactful.
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That's quite a difference.. A racist is someone that blindly hates someone of a different race. Nobody is discriminating or hating here. We all see things differently, and having a different point of view shouldn't warrant a cold shoulder either.

I don't think that's very fair to label me , or anyone else to be disrespectful because they have a different opinion than you do on a subject either .
 
Gold_Loot said:
That's quite a difference.. A racist is someone that blindly hates someone of a different race. Nobody is discriminating or hating here. We all see things differently, and having a different point of view shouldn't warrant a cold shoulder either.

I don't think that's very fair to label me , or anyone else to be disrespectful because they have a different opinion than you do on a subject either .
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By refusing to use the correct pronouns, yes they are.

You don't see transphobia on the same level as homophobia or racism because you see it as a "different opinion"? okay!
 
Razmos said:
By refusing to use the correct pronouns, yes they are.

You don't see transphobia on the same level as homophobia or racism because you see it as a "different opinion"? okay!
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Never have I mentioned in any of my posts about transphobias or hate..

#teamconfused.
 
Pankratous said:
Uh, I got the totally wrong word, didn't I?
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Yes, yes you did :P

But to answer your question, the reason why this is such a big deal is because she is a very famous person, publicly going through a transition from male to female. A lot of the main problems regarding transphobia stems from ignorance, and stories like this in the media help to reduce that.
 
excelsiorlef said:
You openly admit to knowing nothing about it but still feel qualified to say that it shouldn't be done because mental health and physical maintenance.

Dialation is 30 minutes a week of my life. That's it.

And no your analogy would be I'm not a fan of Ranger Fans getting tattoos because I'm concerned that they might be too mentally ill. The surgery procedure is fine. Look it up.

Also congratulations on being yet another one to make this about the genitals of trans people.
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I know this is a tough issue, but instead of your original response maybe if you have responded the way the other poster did you would a better job of educating people. I was under the impression that the surgery was still not safe. I stand corrected :) I'm glad it's working out for you.

Edit: I apologize if offended you.
 
Pankratous said:
My bad, lol.

My question stands though... with the right word.
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First time someone this culturally "important" has come out as transgender. It brings awareness and hopefully newfound understanding to people that would not otherwise have any exposure to a transgender person
 
Pankratous said:
Why is Jenner getting so much attention exactly? There have been other transvestites... thousands of them. This isn't a new thing.
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kisa__headdesk_by_fawnadon-d3i19he.gif
 
Never really cared for the man known as Bruce Jenner, perhaps Caitlyn will make a better impression
Nice to somebody in her situation be so open and confident, gives others some much needed willpower

So what is her connection to the Kardashians? I haven't been keeping up with them...
 
excelsiorlef said:
Transgender no ed on the end.

I'm a transgender woman not a transgendered woman. It is something that defines me not something that was done to me.
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This is the sort of clarification we need, i was confused about which one the correct one was, tho i think that's more about english not being my first language.
 
Gold_Loot said:
That's quite a difference.. A racist is someone that blindly hates someone of a different race. Nobody is discriminating or hating here. We all see things differently, and having a different point of view shouldn't warrant a cold shoulder either.

I don't think that's very fair to label me , or anyone else to be disrespectful because they have a different opinion than you do on a subject either .
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The part your missing is the your differing opinion is a fundamental invalidation of trans people.You're still a bigot, just a polite one.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Because Bruce jenner was considered the greatest athlete in the world at one time.

To put it in perspective imagine if Lebron James became a woman.
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Seriously? I see no good thing can come with associating with the Kardashian family
Caitlyn nearly faded into obscurity except for that awful TV show
 
Reading what I missed, has Caitlyn ever said whether we should use the pronoun she or he in reference to him/her? I honestly haven't watched any of the interview, and havent read anything concrete about it.

Not that I'll ever meet Jenner, but just want to be sure when discussing it that I'm saying the proper form.
 
zychi said:
Reading what I missed, has Caitlyn ever said whether we should use the pronoun she or he in reference to him/her? I honestly haven't watched any of the interview, and havent read anything concrete about it.

Not that I'll ever meet Jenner, but just want to be sure when discussing it that I'm saying the proper form.
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She has requested that people refer to her as she/her.
 
zychi said:
Reading what I missed, has Caitlyn ever said whether we should use the pronoun she or he in reference to him/her? I honestly haven't watched any of the interview, and havent read anything concrete about it.

Not that I'll ever meet Jenner, but just want to be sure when discussing it that I'm saying the proper form.
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Wanted to keep being called "He" and "Bruce" until the transitioning was over, which it now is. This is basically her "coming out". So now the pronoun is she and the name is Caitlyn :3
 
zychi said:
Reading what I missed, has Caitlyn ever said whether we should use the pronoun she or he in reference to him/her? I honestly haven't watched any of the interview, and havent read anything concrete about it.

Not that I'll ever meet Jenner, but just want to be sure when discussing it that I'm saying the proper form.
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In the TV interview she asked to be referred to as him for just a little longer. Now it seems she wants to be referred to in the feminine since that's what she points out on her twitter blurb:

Catilyn Jenner's Twitter said:
I'm so happy after such a long struggle to be living my true self. Welcome to the world Caitlyn. Can't wait for you to get to know her/me.
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zychi said:
Reading what I missed, has Caitlyn ever said whether we should use the pronoun she or he in reference to him/her? I honestly haven't watched any of the interview, and havent read anything concrete about it.

Not that I'll ever meet Jenner, but just want to be sure when discussing it that I'm saying the proper form.
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She said as much on Twitter earlier.
 
zychi said:
Reading what I missed, has Caitlyn ever said whether we should use the pronoun she or he in reference to him/her? I honestly haven't watched any of the interview, and havent read anything concrete about it.

Not that I'll ever meet Jenner, but just want to be sure when discussing it that I'm saying the proper form.
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I might be wrong, but by the point of today's develompment is pretty safe to say She prefers she/her now.

I think the last big thread we had about this she still was okay with he/him (i might be wrong about this), but by this point it's She/Her.
 
Razmos said:
...asking invasive questions which they wouldn't ask of a cisgender person
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One thing that threw me was that, from what I've seen, when a cisgender person changes their name/identity, there's typically some sort of name change announcement (thinking of Chelsea Manning's and an ex-girfriend's wife's announcements.) I don't follow the Jenner/Kardashian clans, so initially I thought this was about another branch on that family tree.
 
Man the more I see on this the happier I get. This is just so sweet and I'm so happy for her, and all the trans people I've met who have gone through so much and finally get to be the person they are.
 
excelsiorlef said:
Ok so

1) To folks asking how do transgender genitals work? Look it up on google like you have this vast free encyclopedia of knowledge but feel that you just must ask and speculate about Caitlyn's genitals in a thread about her just being her. Don't do that. Stop making everything about genitals. Look it up. Educate yourselves and if you are amazingly still confused keep reading. There's so much trans 101 stuff out there it's ridiculous. You wouldn't go into a thread about a Baseball player reaching some career milestone and start asking about how baseball works. So don't do that shit here.

2) DON'T EVER EVER EVER IMPLY TRANS WOMEN ARE NOT REAL WOMEN. Do not question their style choices in such a way as to reject their identity, as to dehumanize them or imply that they aren't really trans and are just human dolls or men in dresses or stereotypes and caricatures. If you think you're making some salient point? News flash you aren't.

3) To people being all ummmm errrr using proper pronouns make me uncomfortable I'm just never going to do it. Cut the crap. If it bothers you that much keep it to yourself instead of wearing your assholery like a badge of honour as if to say I'm a rebel! You're not a rebel, you're a jerk. To people saying we shouldn't condemn said jerks and instead support them so they'll grow ? No. We don't treat overt and proud racists with kid gloves so let's not treat overt and proud transphobes with kid gloves.

I'm going to give you an extreme example of why pronouns are important, call it unlikely but it is rooted in 100% possibility:

You have a trans woman friend, she has finally decided to transition and as part of that all but has no choice to come out to you. So she does and starts to live as herself for the first time 24/7. However, she's told the people she knows that she's trans but isn't going around telling everyone she meets or sees or encounters that she's trans. No you're in a bar and you're all hanging out as a group and you meet a group of strangers and everyone hits it off. So you're hanging out all together and someone from that group leans to you and says hey your friend is pretty cool she's super smart/funny/pretty/interesting/whatever and because you're a fucking selfish asshole you say yeah he's pretty cool, and proceed to say he/him/his through our. Congrats dick weed you just outed your friend. Now maybe it goes well maybe this new group ignores your transphobia, maybe they even convine her to drop you and they all take off together and gace a great night whilst leaving your bigoted ass in the wond. Or maybe they're disgusted and when they see her go into or come out of the Women’s bathroom and decidex they need to teach that freak a lesson and beat her to death. Congratulations your selfish inability to use a measly fucking pronoun just got your friend murdered.

Or maybe it's not even that extreme. Maybe your friend is so unlucky that you're the only person who she can come out to (as in no other friends and overtly bigoted parents) and she does and your response is to deny her identity and call her he all the time. So now your friend conludes that no one will ever accept her that she'll have to live out her life in shame and secret, as a lie, so she ends her pain. Congratulations you're selfish bigotry just helped drive your friend to suicide.

Now if you read all that and say well I'd never do that to a friend! Then why do you think it's cool to do it to a stranger
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I just wanted to say that this is an awesome post. I am someone who has only met transgender people in passing. A few casual conversation at a couple bars at most. I was never aware of what seems like common sense after reading this. I am pretty sure I wasn't disrespectful, but the post got me thinking about whether I used the wrong pronouns or not. Regardless it's something I know I'll get right in the future. So thanks for helping me not be a jerk.
 
Gold_Loot said:
That's quite a difference.. A racist is someone that blindly hates someone of a different race. Nobody is discriminating or hating here. We all see things differently, and having a different point of view shouldn't warrant a cold shoulder either.

I don't think that's very fair to label me , or anyone else to be disrespectful because they have a different opinion than you do on a subject either .
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That's not quite the point I was trying to make.

I don't want to go into racism in this thread, but it's perfectly possible for someone to be racist without being openly hateful.

If you have a different "view" or "opinion" on my gender than I do, it's very difficult for me to be around that. That's the point I'm making. To me - subjectively, of course - it IS discriminatory, it is bigoted and it is transphobic. It doesn't really matter if you're polite about it or not.

I'm not judging you as a person. You could be a wonderful person. But to me - as a trans person - that's the very essence of transphobia. I hope you can understand what I mean.
 
collige said:
The part your missing is the your differing opinion is a fundamental invalidation of trans people.You're still a bigot, just a polite one.
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You said I what I just said more succinctly. Thanks! My brain and heart go a bit mushy when these threads get into the chaotic bits. It's difficult to be calm and measured when everyone's an expert :-)
 
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