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[Scott]

How about we leave the genre label just like it is, and instead just smack everybody that still takes it at face value?

Would be more productive, if you ask me.

 

[akascream]

my intention was not to try and make Fable look bad, I think the game looks badass, but that's irrelevant. my point was that you are trying to devalue an entire sub-genre in comparison to an unreleased game

I wasn't trying to devalue anything. Would you say there is an eastern 'rpg' that is on the same level as Fable in terms of role play? Perhaps you could stay on topic and elaborate on that point instead of jumping into a thread declaring things are 'lol dumB OMFG HI2U'.

 

[IJoel]

I was going to counter an argument, but... it's time to let this die... we will never ever reach an agreement apparently.

 

[Tabris]

I wasn't trying to devalue anything. Would you say there is an eastern 'rpg' that is on the same level as Fable in terms of role play? Perhaps you could stay on topic and elaborate on that point instead of jumping into a thread declaring things are 'lol dumB OMFG HI2U'.

You haven't even played the game!!

Oh my god, you have some kind of insane troll logic. It's not worth debating with you anymore.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Well, like we've kind of agreed on. 'Some of us' are fans of a different genre.

But look how you're saying these things. You're just taking videos of gameplay and saying...oh nevermind, its not worth it.

 

[akascream]

You haven't even played the game!!

Oh my god, you have some kind of insane troll logic.

It's pretty obvious from available footage and impressions. Maybe that would be a good place for you to start?

 

[Scott]

we will never ever reach an agreement apparently.

It's not worth debating with you anymore.

oh nevermind, its not worth it.

Hey, you guys are finally catching on.

 

[EviLore]

HEY GUYZ FABLE IS TEH ROXXOROGXGRHBXIK!!!11111111 YOUR STUPID FF1-CLONES ARE NOTHING IN COMPARISON!


See, look, now I'm trolling too. Aka, seriously, at least use released games in your argument. I think Jade Empire looks marvelous, but I'm not going to say that it utterly shatters those little PoS eastern rpgs after simply looking at videos and screenshots and masturbatory developer interviews.

 

[Tabris]

I went for the funny, but I think I'll stay with not worth it.

 

[Gattsu25]

aka, if you weren't trying to value western rpgs above eatern ones, then what the hell were you doing?

in order for me to answer your question, please, list your definition of role playing in games and in which ways Fable allows you to do so.


Note: I have a distinct feeling that your idea of role playing is going to be a PR sheet from Fable that allows Fable to 100% match your vision
Also Note: As previously stated, I don't give a deficate about your argument...though I would appreciate it if you were to patiently do nothing as you wait for my reply.

 

[akascream]

See, look, now I'm trolling too. Aka, seriously, at least use released games in your argument. I think Jade Empire looks marvelous, but I'm not going to say that it utterly shatters those little PoS eastern rpgs after simply looking at videos and screenshots and masturbatory developer interviews.

Trolling? And I am also using released games to make my point. Points which were agreed with by the very people calling me a troll or whatever.

Defenders of the faith.. UNITE!! Clearly, by wanting to seperate eastern menu/story games from RPG's, I am crossing some holy line. I'll be more careful in the future.

aka, if you weren't trying to value western rpgs above eatern ones, then what the hell were you doing?

Jesus, maybe you should have read the thread first then huh!

 

[Scott]

We've all read the thread. In it's entirety. Everything from the title, to the first post, to your god-awful post about JRPGs still playing like the original Final Fantasy.. We've read it.

And guess what? It screams "Western > Eastern." Plain as day.

 

[RevenantKioku]

It's pretty obvious from available footage and impressions. Maybe that would be a good place for you to start?

But there still can be issues in the game that is released. They're not going to show those issues in videos.
Aka, you're missing the damn point that both sides are derivatives that still hold a LOT of the original base, and a lot that just ISN'T role-playing. Just shown and implemented differently.

 

[akascream]

And guess what? It screams "Western > Eastern." Plain as day.

I can't help it if my observations make you feel that way. I tend to be quite persuasive.

 

[seismologist]

It seems that some people here are blinded by the Fable hype and not able to think rationally
I already dont like the sound of having artificial barries that preventing you from doing quests until you have a certain level of "reknown".

I just dont see the future of RPGs being based on a mission based fetch quest game structure.
It's already giving bad memories of Tony Hawk Pro Skater or Simpsons Hit and Run.
It your gonna do an open ended RPG then let it be open ended. Like Morrowind.

It might be an alright game with a fresh new ideas but will Eastern RPGs be able to keep up? Um, yeah. Wait for FF12.

 

[EviLore]

I can't help it if my observations make you feel that way. I tend to be quite persuasive.

Speaking of masturbatory...

 

[Tabris]

Speaking of masturbatory...

You're one to talk

Anyways, either way, we're now talking about taste. We get you like western RPGs, and dislike eastern RPGs. At least innovation is something you can debate about.

 

[nitewulf]

western RPGs are generally better than eastern RPGs, however keep in mind:

1) western RPGs only really appeal to hardcore PC gamers
2) eastern RPGs have more popular appeal, since they are generally anime/cinematic

if by compete, you mean sales-wise, eastern RPGs will always have that edge, since they cater to the average joe schmoe regardless of nationality. But for game quality, games like Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, KOTOR, etc., are almost unmatchable (Dragon Quest is the only Japanese RPG series that even comes close to their quality).

Also, this is excluding genres like simulation/RPG (which is separate from RPGs) or action/RPG (pretty much a console exclusive/eastern developed genre).

this i agree with. most japanese rpgs we get here are very mainstream, anime/teen drama/fantasy stuff. kids/boys/young adults want to go on a space/earthly adventure/quest and fuck a cute looking girl with blue/green hair. who wouldnt? this whole thing fullfils a fantasy that one cant normaly achieve in real life. so you have the mainstream jrpgs.

on the other hand you get stuff like disgaea/la pucelle etc, which are not geared towards the mainstream and their sales numbers prove that. these games are tough, have lots of tactics. they take time to learn and master, they are not very flashy compared to your xenosagas and FFs so on and so forth.

and i agree w/ your comments about that PC rpgs being hardcore. hell i couldnt even figure out what to do in planescape torment, and gave up in frustration. they are usually very open ended. in fact, too much for my tatses, so i preffer jrpgs.

mainstream jrpgs on the other hand are easy to get into, you got the cute chics and the tough young boys, a world to save, nice battle effects, good graphics, good pop-ish music etc.

so i agree that in sales, Eastern rpgs will always sell a lot more, they are geared for the majority.

as for gameplay, its a toss up, compared to the customizations and freedom in say morrowind, you got srpgs like disgaea, la pucelle etc that allow you a lot of freedom in gameplay.

 

[akascream]

I have a distinct feeling that your idea of role playing is going to be a PR sheet from Fable that allows Fable to 100% match your vision

I've been playing RPG's since I could hold a pencil and roll a die, so I'd say your distinct feeling is pretty bunk.


Reading the thread again, I guess this hostility is my fault. Calling western RPG's real rpgs, ect. But that really is my pov. I still enjoy many eastern rpg's, just not for the same reasons. I guess I could have used less confrontational terms.

 

[ferricide]

All eastern rpg's differ in mechanics. But they are all the same in terms of role play. Meaning they give you a very stylized character, and they tell you what he is like while you walk down thier predetermined path to the end of the game.

can you fucking belabor this point any further? WE GET IT ALREADY. those of us who really, really enjoy japanese RPGs DO NOT FUCKING CARE.

everyone who thinks JRPGs are stale, shallow, and offer no salient choices should be forced to march down the store on 9/27 when shin megami tensei: nocturne comes out. it offers a branching storyline, 6 endings, hugely customizable party, dialogue choices that actually affect gameplay in and out of battle... check out the 800k+ FAQ on gamefaqs to get a taste of what this one is all about.

 

[firex]

...but even with this change of focus in the genre, eastern RPGs are still leading the "innovation" front for gameplay. Games like Valkyrie Profile and BOFV: Dragon Quarter are some very good examples of games that break the genre's mold.

While western RPGs are still VERY dependent on "DnD" like gameplay. Infact, I would have to say that western RPGs have changed the least from their ancestor counterparts.

Like usual, you're wrong. BOF5 copies many key concepts in its battles from Fallout; from the action points system, to no respawning, to using terrain and map layout in battles... oh yeah, and permanent death.

Similarly, Diablo is about as far away from a d&d RPG as you can get... as is the Fallout series and Wasteland.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

And Fallout therefore copies Lufia II with the no enemy respawn and visibility on the map.

The only thing that BOF takes from the Fallout series is the use of AP to walk around the map whilst in battle. Otherwise, it's more of an SRPG in RPG clothing.

 

[Korranator]

on 9/27 when shin megami tensei: nocturne comes out. it offers a branching storyline, 6 endings, hugely customizable party, dialogue choices that actually affect gameplay in and out of battle... check out the 800k+ FAQ on gamefaqs to get a taste of what this one is all about.

Sold!1!!

 

[nitewulf]

And Fallout therefore copies Lufia II with the no enemy respawn and visibility on the map.

The only thing that BOF takes from the Fallout series is the use of AP to walk around the map whilst in battle. Otherwise, it's more of an SRPG in RPG clothing.

lufia 2 has respawning enemies.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Not within a dungeon. BOFV is one big dungeon. The principle is the same.

 

[Ar_]

Wow, western devs finally make one good RPG and all of the sudden, the Japanese can't compete?

Insanity I tell ya!

Finally? Masterpieces like Fallout, Ultima and others date to many years ago - enough for many posters here to be too young to have played them - and are still unmatched in some areas.

Even something like Might & Magic (only played #6 personally), while can't be called a masterpiece, was really good for its time.

Today, the question for me is: Can Japanese and American developers compete anymore?
They surely will, but for now, the rpgs I found most interesting in late years came from Europe: Divine Divinity and especially Gothic (which btw puts Morrowind to shame imo).

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

I remember reading this argument on Usenet back in 1996. It was played out even then.

 

[Azih]

Just in response to the first post

Morrowind sucks donkey nuts.

 

[Nerevar]

why is this thread still going on? It's retarded, people like different types of games.

Although, admittedly, calling both genres of games "RPG"s just cheapens the acronym. We really should stop

 

[Kon Tiki]

why is this thread still going on? It's retarded, people like different types of games.

Although, admittedly, calling both genres of games "RPG"s just cheapens the acronym. We really should stop

heh, it is like Football and American Football.

 

[Mumbles]

With games like Morrowind, Kotor, and Fable, it's clear that western developers are utilizing new technologies to innovate and move not only MMO RPGs forward, but single player RPGs as well. I am simply not interested in menu based games with summons, cards, spiky hair styles, world maps, ethers, linear storylines/plot and characters predesigned by somebody ELSE's imagination.

Replying without trudging through this long thread - KOTOR wasn't very open-ended at all. Yeah, you could pick a limited number of responses to the situations you were given, but that's weak compared to pen and paper. Combine with the broken experience system (who came up with the 20 level cap?), boring combat, and standard cliches, and you've got a basic RPG. Nothing terrible, but certainly not worth the praise it's received.

Morrowind, OTOH, was just painful for me to play. First-person, crappy combat, offensive character designs...basically, I played for 30 minutes, and had no desire to play again. I really wish US RPG developers would bring there good stuff to consoles - it's not like there's no talent there, but when Fallout 3 gets dumped in favor of Brotherhood of Steel, we've got a problem.

So basically, the real question is can the western developers step up and bring something truly great to consoles? They certainly haven't so far, but I'd like to see them do so.

 

[Phoenix]

Two different cultures of gamers and two entirely different disciplines of game design. There are some people out there who found Morrowinds open endedness an orgasmic experience. There are some people out there who found Final Fantasy ??'s more linear experience a godsend. In the former, the game is really just a collection of rules that govern the world and allow you to interact with it how you choose. In the later, the entire focus is on the plot/story and getting you through it.

Me personally I think that for my playing style (one in which I don't intend to spend my entire life searching for arcane crap all over the game), ANY developer that can give me a solid gaming experience that is episodic and linear with some optional openness is great. I don't have 100 hours to spend with a game anymore - so the more open you make a game, the less likely I am to enjoy it. For me, playing a game is *actually playing the game* not walking around the world looking for shit to do. Very few western shops can deliver on what I need.

Now for people with no lives and incredible amounts of free time - a game like Morrowind is great. You can spend your time walking around looking at the different architecture and what-not in different parts of the world and see all these great locales and stuff - or not. There will be lots of places to go and things to discover. You may even find some stuff that the developers put in that no one else in the world ever found (reminds me of when I found telephone numbers in Mechwarrior II and called up the devs).

The problem with all open ended games is focus. Developers spend so much time trying to give you the ultimate in flexibility that they forget that their job was to give you a game to play. In many respects KOTOR is more like a traditional Japaneese RPG than it is a western one, and I in fact found KOTOR more enjoyable than any other RPG that's come out of the states in ages.

 

[Mejilan]

I enjoy both Eastern and Western flavored RPGs. I generally lean towards the Eastern variety for every day playing.

But some Western classics still blow me away, and are part of my favorites ever lists. Man, remember Ultimas 4-7?

IMO, the West is slipping, not improving.