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Can eastern RPG developers compete?

6.8

Member
This is not what the genre is all about. Go back to the early to mid 90s. I recall playing FPRpgs where freedom of character and choice was not exactly at the core of the gameplay. They were more dungeon crawlers than anything. I remember playing Eye of the Beholder games and Westwood's Lands of Lore (1 only, the others don't count), and having little to do but exploring and fighting baddies.

Choice is where their recent success has been, but they haven't been founded on that principle alone.
 

jarrod

Banned
IJoel said:
Don't be ridiculous. If you are not dense, you should know what I mean.

However, if you define an RPG game by whether the combat is real time or not, then I guess you are dense indeed.

Edit: And btw, I never said Eastern RPGs were bad. I enjoy them myself.
Evidently you missed my point, as both allow the player to "control the character progression and development". I guess AstroBoy is good RPG too right? ;)
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
6.8 said:
This is not what the genre is all about. Go back to the early to mid 90s. I recall playing FPRpgs where freedom of character and choice was not exactly at the core of the gameplay. They were more dungeon crawlers than anything. I remember playing Eye of the Beholder games and Westwood's Lands of Lore (1 only, the others don't count), and having little to do but exploring and fighting baddies.

Choice is where their recent success has been, but they haven't been founded on that principle alone.

...and just as there are sub-genres with Eastern RPGs, there are also sub-genres in Western games. Those games you just named are different in the way that Final Fantasy Tactics is different.
 

IJoel

Member
dark10x said:
That's what they've always been like, though...

Just like many JRPGs are based upon games like FF1...many Western RPGs are based upon that idea. How is that innovation? Both types just expand upon games which came before...it just so happens that, along the way, SOME games have proven to be innovative. Your idea presented above is not innovative, however...

There's a huge difference between basic character alignment, and the completely different game experience significant freedom (in a game) brings. This changes everything, from the battle system, to the immersion factor, to exploration, to story development/narration. If this isn't significant to be considered innovation, then I guess we'll never see such a thing.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
IJoel said:
There's a huge difference between basic character alignment, and the completely different game experience significant freedom (in a game) brings. This changes everything, from the battle system, to the immersion factor, to exploration, to story development/narration. If this isn't significant to be considered innovation, then I guess we'll never see such a thing.

The changes made to JRPGs are just as large, though...

That's what you aren't realizing. Not ALL of them have truly deviated from the original designs...but many of them have come a LONG way.
 

6.8

Member
dark10x said:
...and just as there are sub-genres with Eastern RPGs, there are also sub-genres in Western games. Those games you just named are different in the way that Final Fantasy Tactics is different.

Your point being? I'm not making any implications that all JRPGs are uniform. How many times do I have to say that in this thread? Tabris was seemingly saying otherwise about western RPGs.
 

sprsk

force push the doodoo rock
IJoel said:
There's a huge difference between basic character alignment, and the completely different game experience significant freedom (in a game) brings. This changes everything, from the battle system, to the immersion factor, to exploration, to story development/narration. If this isn't significant to be considered innovation, then I guess we'll never see such a thing.


Id say a game like disgaea\phantom brave give you a shitload more freedom than kotor does.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
6.8 said:
Your point being? I'm not making any implications that all JRPGs are uniform. How many times do I have to say that in this thread? Tabris was seemingly saying otherwise.

Well, you have people like IJoel who seem dead set on proving that Western RPGs have come along way. Perhaps they have, but what's the point of saying that when it is also true for Eastern games? That's the whole point! Why bring up something that holds true for both sides?

It sounds like personal preference is coming into play here...and that isn't the point of the discussion.
 

IJoel

Member
teiresias said:
You're controlling stats, there is hardly any character interaction, no need to make decisions in terms of interactions with the world. You're just killing things to gain gold to buy new equipment, gain levels, and in turn increase your numbers. It's basically people sitting around playing P&P DnD without a GM and without a story, they're just rolling the dice and seeing how high they can get their numbers. My qualms with the game being called an RPG have nothing to do with "real-time" versus "turned based." That's your own insecurity talking there.

Tell me what in the heavens do you do in a FF game.

Go through a story, kill endless enemies and progress your character.

What the hell does this have to do about 'insecurity'? Are you crazy?

Diablo games have a story. You kill tons of enemies, and you control how your character develops. What's so different about that and a FF game that's not the real-time/turn-based combat system?
 

6.8

Member
And Tabris was saying that Western RPGs weren't. I was telling him otherwise. That was my point, and shouldn't have gone away from that. I'm not gonna bother with IJoel's point if everyone's taking care of it already. ;)

It sounds like personal preference is coming into play here...and that isn't the point of the discussion.

Actually, it quite evidentally is.
 

IJoel

Member
sp0rsk said:
Id say a game like disgaea\phantom brave give you a shitload more freedom than kotor does.

Actually I never mentioned a particular game, because it's just not 1 game.

KotOR, Morrowind, BG2, Deus Ex, etc. All of those provide different varying degrees of freedom. I'm talking general terms here. Granted, I haven't played Disgaea enough, and certainly not Phantom Brave.
 

akascream

Banned
A story with specific linear progression and a more complex role than "OMG, COLLECT ALL THE STARS AND BEAT BOWSER TO SAVE THE PRINCESS?"

East/West RPGs are still ultimately the same damned thing, a story with an end goal. The difference is that "Western" RPGs let you zig-zag a little to get to the end point as opposed to going in a straight line.

It seems the only thing that makes a role play game a role playing game is a story. Is it possible for an RPG to have a bad story and great game mechanics? Would that game be a better or worse RPG than a game with a great story and lousy gameplay?
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
IJoel said:
Actually I never mentioned a particular game, because it's just not 1 game.

KotOR, Morrowind, BG2, Deus Ex, etc. All of those provide different varying degrees of freedom. I'm talking general terms here. Granted, I haven't played Disgaea enough, and certainly not Phantom Brave.

Well that's the damn point, games with freedom exist on BOTH sides...you've just admitted that while also admitting that you have little to no experience with them. What gives you the right to talk if you don't even know what's out there? You keep saying "FF", but that hardly represents the JRPG genre as a whole...

Oh, and Deus Ex? My second favorite PC game of all time, that's for sure...but I'd hardly place it in with those other games. It's almost like its own genre and is more in line with stuff like System Shock.

Is it possible for an RPG to have a bad story and great game mechanics?

Obviously...

Disgaea is a very treasured game, but I can tell you that people sure as hell aren't praising it for the storyline. It's pure gameplay...and it's far from being the only game like that.
 

IJoel

Member
dark10x said:
The changes made to JRPGs are just as large, though...

That's what you aren't realizing. Not ALL of them have truly deviated from the original designs...but many of them have come a LONG way.

See, this is something that's arguable.

Well, recently, to me, they haven't. The core combat mechanics have (and this is a general comment, because there are of course some exceptions) remained the same, and the way the user plays the game has really remained the same. I do think there has been significant refinements and definitely innovation (considering their starting point.) I NEVER said that western rpgs haven't innovated. What I have said is that they are becoming stagnant because they aren't breaking out of the mold. Of course this is the past 5-7 years. It's not meant to portray the entire development of the western rpg industry.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
IJoel said:
See, this is something that's arguable.

Well, recently, to me, they haven't. The core combat mechanics have (and this is a general comment, because there are of course some exceptions) have remained the same, and the way the user plays the game has really remained the same. I do think there has been significant refinements and definitely innovation (considering their starting point.) I NEVER said that western rpgs haven't innovated. What I have said is that they are becoming stagnant because they aren't breaking out of the mold. Of course this is the past 5-7 years. It's not meant to portray the entire development of the western rpg industry.

Look above...

It is clear that you have little experience with JRPGs that deviate from the norm...and there are MANY out there.
 

6.8

Member
dark10x said:
Look above...

It is clear that you have little experience with JRPGs that deviate from the norm...and there are MANY out there.

I personally think the problem is perception. On the western-side, typically those that deviate the most (big emphasis on that), are typically those that sell the most, and are the most popular. On the other side, those that deviate the most (again emphasis on that), are often niche and remain relatively unknown outside of geekdom comunities.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
6.8 said:
I personally think the problem is perception. On the western-side, typically those that deviate the most (big emphasis on that), are typically those that sell the most, and are the most popular. On the other side, those that deviate the most (again emphasis on that), are often niche and remain relatively unknown outside of geekdom comunities.

I TOTALLY agree with that...
 

Buggy Loop

Gold Member
Traditional RPGs are still going strong and get quite a lot of sales, but as a gamer, the future is with freedom of choice and on which side your character is on, not always the "save the world" hero that we've seen a bazillion times, in that respect, western devs are eons ahead of eastern devs.

KOTOR is a good example but its nothing new, its been done on PC western games, heck, bioware's older RPGs for example, i would even say that KOTOR is a bit dumbed down gameplay mechanic wise compared to some of bioware's past work, but the story and more importantly, the franchise behind KOTOR, probably helped console gamers look at it beyond just "another D&D game", which is what it is, just with a different look than the traditional one.

While i havent played Fable, from all the impressions i've read and previews of it, its what i want RPGs to be heading. Just the ammount of AI complexity in fable makes it one of its kind. It must be crazy the ammount of data being calculated in the background for each citizens you encounter to give you a believable reaction depending on what you've done before and if he heard of it or if you did something good or mean to him in the past, etc. No more "run up to villager, press dialogue button, blah blah blah, press dialogue button again to see if the texts change, a third time, oops, he's repeating himself, move to villager #2". RPGs where the NPCs have 2 lines of predetermined dialogue to give you and doesnt give a shit of your exploits, gone with them. A game where you're to become an hero, the surrounding should react to it, which was my main problem with morrowind.
 

Shouta

Member
A perfect example is how the Wizardry series has evolved on both sides of the Pacific. Wizardry 8 introduced a free-roaming control scheme and battles that happen directly within the same environment that the player explores, along with an interface that is up to current standards for PC RPGs and dungeons with realistic layouts. ...*snip*

Not gonna touch that. There's a ton things about using Wizardry as an example that I find ick and it takes too long to get into.

As far as games that stand out from the others, I think the reason you don't see games that stick out as far as a DQ or a Vagrant Story is that there's enough variation within the genre that there's not a gameplay norm that's well-defined enough for games to stand out from so distinctly. Fallout doesn't play like Morrowind doesn't play like Icewind Dale doesn't play like Planescape: Torment. Core concepts can vary as far as player freedom and battle engines and focus on story, and there's not a single mold that's there waiting to be broken.

I don't think that's the case personally. I think it comes down to the fact that opponents of PC RPGs don't really exist for whatever reason. ;p

Joking aside, I think the reason they don't stick out is because they feel homologous. I always get that feeling of deja vu whenever I play a PC RPG. I get that in JRPGs sometimes but only in extreme cases of genericness. I mean, while FF and DQ use slightly varied combat systems (ATB vs Turn based) they felt entirely different in gameplay because of how it played out and how you progressed characters in game on top of setting and premise. I don't get that feeling with PC RPGs. I play Fallout and it still feels like I'm slugging through Baldur's Gate.
 

akascream

Banned
However, story + gameplay >>>> just gameplay IMO.

I dunno. In many cases, if a game has a story, it means the developer has already decided your fate, what you will do. Real RPG fans will tell you that the main plot in games like Bauldurs Gate and Morrowind are completely ignorable.
 

IJoel

Member
dark10x said:
Well that's the damn point, games with freedom exist on BOTH sides...you've just admitted that while also admitting that you have little to no experience with them. What gives you the right to talk if you don't even know what's out there? You keep saying "FF", but that hardly represents the JRPG genre as a whole...

Ehh... not the same degree of freedom. Certainly not the same.

Oh, and Deus Ex? My second favorite PC game of all time, that's for sure...but I'd hardly place it in with those other games. It's almost like its own genre and is more in line with stuff like System Shock.
Deus Ex = Western RPG

Simple. It's actually evidence of the variety in western RPGs. Not that there isn't for eastern ones.

Disgaea is a very treasured game, but I can tell you that people sure as hell aren't praising it for the storyline. It's pure gameplay...and it's far from being the only game like that.

I can't really refute this as I haven't played every eastern released game, much less obscure ones (and yes Disgaea isn't really an obscure one, but you just don't see many games like that released overseas.) This actually brings your point that there might've been many games that deviate from the norm, and that's perfectly reasonable. I can't vouch for every game, and the same applies for the western rpgs, but I'm talking in general terms here.
 

6.8

Member
akascream said:
I dunno. In many cases, if a game has a story, it means the developer has already decided your fate, what you will do. Real RPG fans will tell you that the main plot in games like Bauldurs Gate and Morrowind are completely ignorable.

Have you played Planescape:Torment? The game had a story no? And the game is heralded because of the story, no?
 

Pellham

Banned
western RPGs are generally better than eastern RPGs, however keep in mind:

1) western RPGs only really appeal to hardcore PC gamers
2) eastern RPGs have more popular appeal, since they are generally anime/cinematic

if by compete, you mean sales-wise, eastern RPGs will always have that edge, since they cater to the average joe schmoe regardless of nationality. But for game quality, games like Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, KOTOR, etc., are almost unmatchable (Dragon Quest is the only Japanese RPG series that even comes close to their quality).

Also, this is excluding genres like simulation/RPG (which is separate from RPGs) or action/RPG (pretty much a console exclusive/eastern developed genre).
 

akascream

Banned
Have you played Planescape:Torment? The game had a story no? And the game is heralded because of the story, no?

Actually I didn't really like that game. It is much too molded an experience.. it lacks the freedom an RPG should have.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Ehh... not the same degree of freedom. Certainly not the same.

Ah, but that's where you are wrong...

You have defined freedom in a very specific way, it seems. Those JRPGs have plenty of freedom, but it is a different kind of freedom than what is offered in WRPGs. Does that mean it isn't freedom?

I dunno. In many cases, if a game has a story, it means the developer has already decided your fate, what you will do. Real RPG fans will tell you that the main plot in games like Bauldurs Gate and Morrowind are completely ignorable.

It's all subjective! That's why I tacked on the "IMO" at the end. I'd rather have a well told story with great characters in my game than no story at all (or a very basic one). If you don't feel that way, well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. That doesn't mean either one of us are wrong...

That's why there is a variety to choose from and no single genre should "rule" over the other. They both deserve to exist...

Have you played Planescape:Torment? The game had a story no? And the game is heralded because of the story, no?

Torment rocks! I certainly found it FAR more interesting and memorable than Baldur's Gate, I'll tell you that. Why? The story...
 

akascream

Banned
It's all subjective! That's why I tacked on the "IMO" at the end. I'd rather have a well told story with great characters in my game than no story at all (or a very basic one). If you don't feel that way, well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. That doesn't mean either one of us are wrong...

Of course not :). But we're talking about what makes a game part of the RPG genre, not debating how important story is. I enjoy games with a good story too ya know!
 

6.8

Member
I haven't completed it, seeing that I can't be arsed to play a PC game recently, but I liked what I saw. Everything about it was oozing originality... excluding the gameplay. But then again, that's what I'm judging from 2 hours of gameplay. And I'm assuming it's due to the engine more than anything else.
 

Shouta

Member
Is it possible for an RPG to have a bad story and great game mechanics? Would that game be a better or worse RPG than a game with a great story and lousy gameplay?

Yes and no. Good story isn't a requisite for a good RPG. However, having great game play doesn't make wholly up for a lousy story if you ask me.
 

IJoel

Member
dark10x said:
Ah, but that's where you are wrong...

You have defined freedom in a very specific way, it seems. Those JRPGs have plenty of freedom, but it is a different kind of freedom than what is offered in WRPGs. Does that mean it isn't freedom?

Well, I guess you have a different perception of the 'freedom' I mean. For me 'freedom' is the extent at which you can do pretty much whatever you want in a game. That's the 'freedom' I'm talking about. Yes, there has been many refinements to the combat system in eastern rpg games that could be characterized as different in terms of degrees of freedom, but it doesn't change the story progression experience in an rpg. It changes how you combat and that's great but it still doesn't change the core element of progression and exploration in the rpg.

I guess it's arguable, but if anything, I still believe the 'changes' (if you want to call it that way) in rpgs have been much more significant for western than eastern ones.

In any case, I've made my point. No reason to repeat the same things. As I said before I enjoy a lot eastern RPGs, I just don't think they have changed much, compared to major changes western RPGs have gone through in the past few years.
 

Shouta

Member
For me 'freedom' is the extent at which you can do pretty much whatever you want in a game. That's the 'freedom' I'm talking about.

Except for the fact that there isn't that sort "freedom" in a 'Western" RPG or "Eastern" RPGs. You still have a progression to go through eventually, you just zig-zag as opposed to go straight like I said earlier. You can Zig-Zag around as much as you like but eventually you hit a wall in which you're eventually forced to go along with what the developers want..
 

IJoel

Member
Shouta said:
Except for the fact that there isn't that sort "freedom" in a 'Western" RPG or "Eastern" RPGs. You still have a progression to go through eventually, you just zig-zag as opposed to go straight like I said earlier. You can Zig-Zag around as much as you like but eventually you hit a wall in which you're eventually forced to go along with what the developers want..

Well, a game has to have a beginning and an end. How you play through is what defines your game experience. If you are confined to follow a specific path, or play the character a pre-determined way, where's the freedom in that?

Edit: Another thing, this doesn't determine the quality of a game. A game could provide all the freedom in the world and might suck, while another could be completely confined and be superb. There are many many examples of the latter. Again, all I'm talking about is how game experiences have innovated.
 

akascream

Banned
Yes and no. Good story isn't a requisite for a good RPG. However, having great game play doesn't make wholly up for a lousy story if you ask me.

So while Mario64 has great gameplay.. it really needs a much better story to be a good RPG.

You still have a progression to go through eventually, you just zig-zag as opposed to go straight like I said earlier.

It's about the freedom to play different roles. Even a totally linear game like KOTOR has different roles you can experience.
 

6.8

Member
Oh. I just wanted to damn you all. You're giving me the urge of playing Baldur's Gate 2 AND Disgaea, when I'm already very busy with other games.
 

Shouta

Member
How you play through is what defines your game experience. If you are confined to follow a specific path, or play the character a pre-determined way, where's the freedom in that?

That's the thing, you're confined to a specific path and to play in character in a specific way in *any* RPG. It's not like you can choose to ignore the main storyline and live your character's life in the game as you see fit. You can't up and decide to do things that aren't designed for you to do in the game. "Eastern" RPGs just don't try cover-up that fact.
 

6.8

Member
Are you insinuating that they are 'covering up' something when they're giving you more choices in story-flow western RPGs? That's something I completely disagree with.
 

IJoel

Member
Shouta said:
That's the thing, you're confined to a specific path and to play in character in a specific way in *any* RPG. It's not like you can choose to ignore the main storyline and live your character's life in the game as you see fit. You can't up and decide to do things that aren't designed for you to do in the game. "Eastern" RPGs just don't try cover-up that fact.

*smacks head*

It's the experience! It's not just to get from point A to B, it's HOW I get there. Besides, you don't play the 'character in a specific way' at all. A game like Morrowind, for instance, will give you options to be downright evil, be a goody two shoes, or be somewhere in between. Kill the merchants for their stuff, kill the entire town if you want, etc.
 

akascream

Banned
That's the thing, you're confined to a specific path and to play in character in a specific way in *any* RPG. It's not like you can choose to ignore the main storyline and live your character's life in the game as you see fit. You can't up and decide to do things that aren't designed for you to do in the game. "Eastern" RPGs just don't try cover-up that fact.

Actually RPG's over the years have accomplished just that. From BBS text based MMO's to MUD's to what we consider MMO's today. Single player rpg's tend to have stories, but you can ignore the plot in games like BG or Morrowind if you really like. I know I did for a while in BG.. hell, I don't think I ever 'finished' Morrowind.
 

akascream

Banned
It's not just to get from point A to B

Indeed. While a really good RPG isn't completely linear, you can have a good RPG that is. It's about character flexibility, about the role you play. Whether you agree or not, I don't see what is so complicated about understanding that. :p
 
I will not touch a japanese RPG. I just don't like them.

However, there's room in the market for both Japanese and Western RPGs. I'll be grabbing all the great Western RPGs I can and loving them. However, I really hope that those who like Japanese RPGs continue to enjoy the games they buy as well.
 
akascream said:
Actually RPG's over the years have accomplished just that. From BBS text based MMO's to MUD's to what we consider MMO's today. Single player rpg's tend to have stories, but you can ignore the plot in games like BG or Morrowind if you really like. I know I did for a while in BG.. hell, I don't think I ever 'finished' Morrowind.
I know I never did. :) I've brought one high-level assassin of mine up to a position of power within the game that I felt was an appropriate ending for her character, but I hardly touched the main quest with her. Hell, I've hardly touched it at all. Indeed, Morrowind and Daggerfall (as well as Fallout, Fallout 2, and Arcanum) are notable because they do let you disregard the main quest entirely and find your own path through them and still have an enjoyable experience. With these games, the 'side quests' are such an important part of the game that they can carry it on their own.

You can't up and decide to do things that aren't designed for you to do in the game.
Morrowind and such are designed for the player to forge out his/her own identity, and a narrative can emerge from the ideas the player has for a character and how that character interacts with the world. The focus is taken off predefined narrative (though that still exists in some form) in favor of that.
 

RevenantKioku

PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS oh god i am drowning in them
akascream said:
So while Mario64 has great gameplay.. it really needs a much better story to be a good RPG.

Essentially, yes, but since that's not what the game was going for, its irrelevant.


akascream said:
It's about the freedom to play different roles. Even a totally linear game like KOTOR has different roles you can experience.

Which again, can be approached in different ways depending on the players view. Eastern RPGs tend to have a straight simple path you can follow easily, or you can derive greatly.
Case in point, in my play-through of Xenosaga, I made MOMO one of my heavy hitters. My roommate was laughing because during his play-through she was virtually useless, but she was kicking ass in mine. (She had a STR that almost rivaled KOS-MOS.)
Its just a different kind of freedom, and different types of roles to consider.
 

SantaC

Member
I don't understand what's so revolutionary with KOTOR. First of all they use a huge movie lichense and slap RPG elements onto it. How innovative.
 

Pimpbaa

Member
jiji said:
I know I never did. :) I've brought one high-level assassin of mine up to a position of power within the game that I felt was an appropriate ending for her character, but I hardly touched the main quest with her. Hell, I've hardly touched it at all. Indeed, Morrowind and Daggerfall (as well as Fallout, Fallout 2, and Arcanum) are notable because they do let you disregard the main quest entirely and find your own path through them and still have an enjoyable experience. With these games, the 'side quests' are such an important part of the game that they can carry it on their own.

This is what I loved about morrowind so much. I wasn't forced to do anything and could go pursue other things, plus I could make my character exactly the way I wanted. It just made the game so immersive for me. I think having a custom character creation is neccesary for me to enjoy an rpg. I can even enjoy linear ones if it lets me create my own character. I loath being forced to play a character I don't like (which is like the majority of Japanese rpgs).
 

Shouta

Member
Are you insinuating that they are 'covering up' something when they're giving you more choices in story-flow western RPGs? That's something I completely disagree with.

I'm insinuating that "Western" RPGs give you options so you feel like you have control of what you're doing and not following a book (which is why people don't like JRPGs) when ultimately you don't. Sure, you have more options to choose from to see and experience but you're still going to get to that end point eventually. "Eastern" RPGs just make it more blatant that they're "Gonna take you for a ride!" </Marvel Vs Capcom 2>

It's not how I get from point A to B, it's HOW I get there.

Uh?

Besides, you don't play the 'character in a specific way' at all. A game like Morrowind, for instance, will give you options to be downright evil, be a goody two shoes, or be somewhere in between. Kill the merchants for their stuff, kill the entire town if you want, etc.

Morrowind is one of the exceptions though. ;) Nice to be able to do all kinds of stuff you want but rawr so boring -_-. Lifeless NPCs and worlds suck.

Edit: I'm not saying having more options is bad, I'm just saying it's still similar to a JRPG, just that you get to see if you want to meet Furry Animal A in Furry Animal Carnival A or go to Furry Animal Carnival B and meet Furry Animal B.
 
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