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can the 'war' on terrorism be 'won'?

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element

Member
I keep hearing both sides, but mostly from Bushy saying 'we will win the war on terrorism', but is this something any country can actually win?

The world will never agree on all issues, and with people that disagree you get radicals who try to force change by any means, which could come be terrorism.

Bush somestime comes across like it is a baseball game and it is just a matter of time before we (the US) wins the war on terrorism. Yet I don't think you can ever win.

Does anyone agree? I am just thinking about it to much?

Reminds me of the 'War' on drugs.
 
In an interview on NBC-TV’s “Today” show, when asked “Can we win?” the war on terror, Bush said, “I don’t think you can win it. But I think you can create conditions so that the — those who use terror as a tool are — less acceptable in parts of the world.”


Flip-flizzity-opping
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
Isn't it the war on Terror?

I would think that Terror Currently has the upper hand, possibly looking at a landslide victory.

*continues to hope that countrys will ditch oil for other powered vehicles.
 

SteveMeister

Hang out with Steve.
If it had remained focused and maintained the cooperation of countries around the world, yes, it could have been won.

At this point, Iraq and the diminished attention to Afghanistan has made it much, much more difficult. A free Iraq might EVENTUALLY help the situation, but in the mean time things are worse.
 

Boogie

Member
Cerebral Palsy said:
In an interview on NBC-TV’s “Today” show, when asked “Can we win?” the war on terror, Bush said, “I don’t think you can win it. But I think you can create conditions so that the — those who use terror as a tool are — less acceptable in parts of the world.”


Flip-flizzity-opping

The thing that bugs me is that was actually a good, insightful answer-- and coming from Bush no less. But with the U.S. in hyper-rhetoric election mode, intelligent discussion is frowned upon, so Kerry jumps on Bush for his statement, and Bush puts out a statement saying "Whoops, I meant, of course we'll win it". Idiots, the both of them....
 

Scrow

Still Tagged Accordingly
element said:
can the 'war' on terrorism be 'won'?
meaning, "can all 'freedom fighters' who hate america be eradicated from the face of the earth?"

no
 

belgurdo

Banned
It can't be won until they make a videogame about it featuring two bikers riding around Iraq in Porsches that shoot rockets at clerics
 

Dilbert

Member
element said:
I keep hearing both sides, but mostly from Bushy saying 'we will win the war on terrorism', but is this something any country can actually win?

Does anyone agree? I am just thinking about it to much?

Reminds me of the 'War' on drugs.
You have a good point. Politicians are not going to give that question much thought -- of COURSE it's "winnable," as far as public statements are concerned. People are not good with subtleties, so of course they aren't going to give a "real" answer which might sound at all like admitting the possibility of failure.

I think you have to carefully define what it would mean to "win" a so-called "war on terror," and it can't be a goal of 100% safety, since that clearly isn't achievable. In fact, I'm not sure that I know what would be an acceptable criteria offhand.
 

GG-Duo

Member
SteveMeister said:
If it had remained focused and maintained the cooperation of countries around the world, yes, it could have been won.

It's hard to say, though. Chechen rebels are sometimes regarded as terrorists... and let's not go into the whole Palestein Israel thing.
 

way more

Member
The war on terror is a war America has recently joined. Europe and many other nations have had to deal with terrorism for years and look how successful they've been. This will be a long, never ending thing which can only be solved by world peace. Maybe Bush means we'll someday live in a America where people will be so safe the thought police will solve the problem of dissention.
 

maharg

idspispopd
As soon as the War on Military Formation, or the War on Ambush are won, the War on Terror will be right behind.
 

Pimpwerx

Member
Hey, I called this from Day 1. I said the war on terror will be as worthless as the war on drugs. The very nature of terror means it has no head. Even capturing Osama will only make him a martyr for the cause and someone else somewhere will take the reigns. It's pointless and endless. I think serioud consideration might be given to the way Blair handled the IRA situation. Part of the problem is the US's failure to own up to its behavior in these parts of the world. This hatred hasn't sprung up from envy or xenophobia. It's sprung up b/c of the policies of this administration and those before it. The US played as many underhanded and exploitive tricks as the USSR during the Cold War and before that. We just label it as just and the Russians as imperialistic. Meh whatever. Terror won't end, it won't be defeated and it seems like it's only getting worse at the moment. But hey, now the American people have a new enemy to rally against. I mean, the fall of communism was so bad b/c people started to focus on domestic issues again. Everyone needs a nemesis to keep themselves distracted. :lol PEACE.
 

FightyF

Banned
I think terrorism within the Muslim world can end, but I think the solution has be undertaken by Muslims themselves, with the assistance of Western Nations.

Obviously banning anti-Terrorism voices such as Dr. Ramadan (one of the most recognized Muslim scholars from Switzerland) is the wrong thing to do. He was going to speak out against terrorism at the largest Muslim convention in the Western Hemisphere. *shrugs shoulders* It doesn't make sense at all.

There are solutions that include the military, and security. They make sense as short term solutions to protect innocent people. But I think the ideology of terrorism that specifically targets the US can be destroyed.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Fight for Freeform said:
I think terrorism within the Muslim world can end, but I think the solution has be undertaken by Muslims themselves, with the assistance of Western Nations.

Obviously banning anti-Terrorism voices such as Dr. Ramadan (one of the most recognized Muslim scholars from Switzerland) is the wrong thing to do. He was going to speak out against terrorism at the largest Muslim convention in the Western Hemisphere. *shrugs shoulders* It doesn't make sense at all.

There are solutions that include the military, and security. They make sense as short term solutions to protect innocent people. But I think the ideology of terrorism that specifically targets the US can be destroyed.

I think it's difficult... by it's nature, terrorists are radical extremists. Just like KKK in the US or neo-nazis in Germany; these are voices that no one outside those groups really approve off, with laws that are heavily against them. But the sad fact of the world is that such ignorance and the sense of needing to belong; even in such ill groups, is just part of human society. Unlike KKK and neo-nazis tho, terrorists... well, they're even more extreme, willing to use themselves as suicide bombers and what not to inflict harm directly onto their opponents.

On the otherhand, the real effect that terrorism has, isn't in the body count of the foes, but in the global fear it spreads. It's like a poison; allowing extremist minds on both sides to rise in reaction to that kind of extreme event.
To mitigate and responsibly manage our natural fears towards startling and unwelcomed events like terrorism... that is, to not use fear mongering and to assess the damage accurately and relatively to the scope of all things, is the best way of defeating the effects of terrorism.

That said, things can definetly be done better than it already has been, in terms of reducing terrorism as a whole. As it is... it seems very much like Bush is stirring the hornets nest, continually galvanizing extremists minds... even if they are currently effective in stopping terrorist activities, it will get to the point where the level of activities are way beyond what American security can handle.
 

Hsieh

Member
The war on terrorism can be won in the sense that sooner or later Al Queada will definately be dismantled. Of course, there other terrorist organizations will spring up to take its place. Most likely, Islamic Extremism will die down eventually as social conditions improve in the Islamic world. This process will take a minimum of at least a few decades and will not occur without some sort of peace between Israelis and Palestinians. However, terrorism will always exist in some form or another. Islamic extremists will be replaced by another group of terrorists who in turn will be replaced by another group of terrorists. There has always been terrorism since the beginning of human history, and terrorism will continue to exist in the future. What makes modern terrorism so scary is the fact that with the advances in technology, fewer and fewer resources are required to carry out a major terrorist attack. Despite all the talk about weapons of mass destruction, 9/11 was carried out with 19 cross country plane tickets and some box cutters. The Oklahoma City bombing was carried out with an automobile and some fertilizer. In the future, terrorists will be able to carry out more and more spectacular attacks using items that can easily be purchased.
 

KingV

Member
I think that the main issue is that there is no condition that constitutes "winning" the War on Terror. It's like a broken quest in an RPG. What is winning? A free Iraq? No more terrorist actions ever? Greatly reduced threat from Terrorism? Does the DC sniper technically count as Terrorism, or is that just "a crime"? Terrorism, and terrorist groups are somewhat loosely defined, so any war "won" against it is de-facto loosely defined as well. Concrete goals can be set that advance your position against terrorism, but I don't think you can ever hit a day where you can be like "OK, we can all kick back, terrorism is defeated" though the threat can definitely be reduced.

See for example, Israel, who in the last year or so has drastically reduced the number of attacks on Israeli soil. Certainly they have been safer in that time, have killed a number of terrorist leaders, and thwarted a number of attacks, but nobody is claiming that they've "won", because they still need to work towards defeating terrorism. In some sort of grand scale, you can say that geopolitical factors could eventually change in such a way that terrorism is not a widely used method of attack, and at that point I think you could say "we won", but I doubt that this eventuality will be the result of any one specific action or set of actions, rather a collective effort on the whole combined with unforeseen factors that change the structure of the world and domestic political spectrums.
 

Lambtron

Unconfirmed Member
war.008.gif
 
I think the more important thing to think about is how this has been branded. Where the 'War on Drugs' was fought using laws and a growing police force, this "War on Terror' is being fought with soldiers and military hardware. But fundamentally, they are being pitched to us the same way. As some intangabile thing that we will someday 'Win'.

When it comes to winning the 'War on Drugs' having this abstract idea of winning is perfectly fine, because it does not endanger either our country or our servicemen and women. However having this abstract idea about something that can cost us American lives and endanger our country is a dangerous thing to do because it can become so objective.

I mean.. define terrorism. Define the terms for winning. I realize that this is what this thread is about, but that is my problem with this whole idea. It's a very clever marketing trick, and one that has obviously worked well for Bush with his supporters, but I think the majority of people that sit back and think about the 'War on Terrorism' realize that it's just a slogan used to make tough ideas something easily digested.

And hey.. it helps confuse things in the end.. so it's a win/win situation when you are campainging on being a 'War' president.
 

Alcibiades

Member
we can win the war on Islamic Jihadism/Fascism or whatever you want to call it.

Terrorism might not ever be 100% gone (like the environementalist guys doing arson here in the US, and the Spanish/French dispute region).

The faster you "transform" the Middle-East (get women in full participation in society, establish minority rights, free press and free speech, Palestinian-Israeli compromise, etc...), then I think the war will have been won and the likelyhood of repressed anger bottled up due to state-sanctioned oppression won't be a driving force for anti-Jewish/anti-Western thought.

The question is, how do you strike a balance with how quick you go about attempting change. Do you let Saddam defy resolutions and embarass the US a tad longer, or to you take the opportunity for change in Iraq and go in?

IMO, Osama Bin Laden is one of the least important factors in terms of operational capabilities. He's more of a figurehead at this point.

As long as you can keep Iran and Pakistan stable long enough for Afganistan and Iraq to form representative governments and settle down, then I think change in Iran is inevitable (at least I'm convinced after all I read, especially Tom Friedman's NYT columns and interviews with Russert/CBS). Pakistan will be more difficult, but now that there has been a crackdown on Al-Qaida-type schooling and stuff like that, as slow as change comes at least things are heading in the right direction.
 

Caddle

Member
The answer to this question lies with the isreali government. They have caused enough trouble already. The palestinian government isn't too kosher either.
 

FightyF

Banned
The faster you "transform" the Middle-East (get women in full participation in society, establish minority rights, free press and free speech, Palestinian-Israeli compromise, etc...), then I think the war will have been won and the likelyhood of repressed anger bottled up due to state-sanctioned oppression won't be a driving force for anti-Jewish/anti-Western thought.

But these are the reasons why terrorist exist in the first place. How can we say we are fighting for the same thing, and the terrorists say they are fighting for the same thing?

The terrorists are clearly against the Saudi monarchy. This monarchy is responsible for the poverty, lack of education, human rights abuses, and pretty much all of the problems there. But the US has, in the past, supported them with money, weapons, and all the tool to keep these people in power. So the terrorists blame the US, in turn.

There were many years were people in Saudi Arabia sought to make peaceful, political changes to their current government, and in the past they've been squashed down because the Saudi government gets a lot of support from western countries (the US isn't the only nation to support them).

The same applies to Egypt. It's a better example because you see a more violent oppression of political activists.

Terrorism came only recently, and my analysis leads me to believe that it's because people were frustrated with the ineffectiveness of attempted dialogues, and now are thinking that violence is the only answer. Plus, take into consideration that Islamic beliefs state that armed conflict when being "oppressed" is justified and considered a noble cause. Terrorism enters the picture when the target is no longer a soldier, but an innocent person.

When we assist those who seek to make changes via peaceful means, we can show that there is a better way, and that terrorism is detrimental to their cause.

Palestine would be a good start, because if the US ever decided to establish a democracy there (because it would not only give them their own freedom [which is a keyword used over and over by the Bush Administration] it would also help stamp out corruption [Arafat and some members of the PLO]), it would really open the eyes of the Arab population.

I see a situation brewing in China, where the Xinjiang Muslims have lived under Communist rule that has oppressed their freedom of religion. Are we going to wait until we hear of news of suicide attack in Beijing? Obviously, we can take steps to eliminate terrorism now in some of these regions. Give people hope that the problem can be solved through non-violence.

The problem with that is the current administration's hasty invasion of Iraq sends the message that dialogue must take a backseat to violence. People will then think that the only language the US can speak, and the only language they can understand, is violence.
 

Alcibiades

Member
Fight for Freeform said:
But these are the reasons why terrorist exist in the first place. How can we say we are fighting for the same thing, and the terrorists say they are fighting for the same thing?

The terrorists are clearly against the Saudi monarchy. This monarchy is responsible for the poverty, lack of education, human rights abuses, and pretty much all of the problems there. But the US has, in the past, supported them with money, weapons, and all the tool to keep these people in power. So the terrorists blame the US, in turn.

There were many years were people in Saudi Arabia sought to make peaceful, political changes to their current government, and in the past they've been squashed down because the Saudi government gets a lot of support from western countries (the US isn't the only nation to support them).

The same applies to Egypt. It's a better example because you see a more violent oppression of political activists.

Terrorism came only recently, and my analysis leads me to believe that it's because people were frustrated with the ineffectiveness of attempted dialogues, and now are thinking that violence is the only answer. Plus, take into consideration that Islamic beliefs state that armed conflict when being "oppressed" is justified and considered a noble cause. Terrorism enters the picture when the target is no longer a soldier, but an innocent person.

When we assist those who seek to make changes via peaceful means, we can show that there is a better way, and that terrorism is detrimental to their cause.

Palestine would be a good start, because if the US ever decided to establish a democracy there (because it would not only give them their own freedom [which is a keyword used over and over by the Bush Administration] it would also help stamp out corruption [Arafat and some members of the PLO]), it would really open the eyes of the Arab population.

I see a situation brewing in China, where the Xinjiang Muslims have lived under Communist rule that has oppressed their freedom of religion. Are we going to wait until we hear of news of suicide attack in Beijing? Obviously, we can take steps to eliminate terrorism now in some of these regions. Give people hope that the problem can be solved through non-violence.

The problem with that is the current administration's hasty invasion of Iraq sends the message that dialogue must take a backseat to violence. People will then think that the only language the US can speak, and the only language they can understand, is violence.

Voting either Kerry or Bush is LITERALLY the LEAST an American can do though.

Why do we support these regimes, and have in the past under both Republicans and Democratic Presidents?

OIL!

Carpooling, fuel-efficient cars, and public transportation provide a much bigger opportunity for change in this country acting as individuals that exercising their voting rights.

Voting Kerry in is easy. Cutting down on our addition (as Bill Maher puts it) to oil is the hard part. My bet is most people using their vote for either Kerry or Bush might use "the war on terror" as their supposed motivation, but will do little in terms of difficult cutdowns on energy and oil.
 

Alcibiades

Member
edit:

Voting either Kerry or Bush is LITERALLY the LEAST an American can do though.

Why do we support these regimes, and have in the past under both Republicans and Democratic Presidents?

OIL!

Carpooling, fuel-efficient cars, and public transportation provide a much bigger opportunity for change in this country acting as individuals than exercising their voting rights.

Voting Kerry in is easy. Cutting down on our addiction (as Bill Maher puts it) to oil is the hard part. My bet is most people using their vote for either Kerry or Bush might use "the war on terror" as their supposed motivation, but will do little in terms of difficult cutdowns on energy and oil.

you cited "this administration" as having rushed to war, but the Iraq thing had been brewing since the invastion of Kuwait and escalated under the Clinton-Blair missle strikes and eventual kicking out of inspectors.

"dialogue" is not going to change society over there. Iran's youth is kinda doing it on their own, and there won't be any dialogue with the Islamic regime that's for sure.

Whether we had invaded Iraq or not, the thinking that the US and Israel only understand violence would not be much different. It's a lose-lose situation when you have extremist teaching from a very young age even in "moderate" places like Jordan.

Basically, I think it comes down to a woman's place in society. When that changes in the Middle-East, it's going to literally change things 180 degrees. I'm not sure any amount of dialogue is going to achieve that. Heck, even in Afganistan, as improved as things may be, there are still regions where women's equal rights aren't being protected.
 

Fusebox

Banned
Not until all the terrorists are dead.

Dont forget, these aren't people that want discussions, or compromise, or solutions - all they care about is bringing a fatal halt to our western way of life.
 

Flynn

Member
Fusebox said:
Not until all the terrorists are dead.

Dont forget, these aren't people that want discussions, or compromise, or solutions - all they care about is bringing a fatal halt to our western way of life.

Killing all terrorists won't stop terrorism.

Because the idea will continue to exist and eventually be used again. The only true way to stop eradicate terrorism would be to erase the memory and knowledge of the technique from the mind of every man, woman and child on the planet, then closely monitor those who might reinvent the technique...but that would take people knowing that they were fighting terrorism...and those people would know what terrorism was and how it worked....crap.
 

nubbe

Member
You have no reason to terrorize when you have an adequate life standard

Terrorism and wellbeing go hand in hand
 
V

Vennt

Unconfirmed Member
nubbe said:
You have no reason to terrorize when you have an adequate life standard

Terrorism and wellbeing go hand in hand

Simplistic rubbish, see ETA for example.

SteveMeister said:
Well, the UK hasn't had problems with the IRA in a while...

That would be because we stopped fighting them, opened a dialogue and started talking to them.

Diplomacy, the lost art.
 

Phoenix

Member
Wars against a philosophical stance are inherently unwinnable. The only wars you can 'win' are against other armies or people with a specific end goal that can be won or lost. Now we have to look at this two ways, can a war against insurgents be won and can a war against terrorists be won.

First the war against insurgents commiting acts of terror. This is a different deal than what is termed 'radical islamic terrorists'. Insurgents are generally 'resistence fighters' going against an occupation. They have an end goal - to stir up enough trouble to keep chaos until the insurgents get rid of the invaders or until they can inject themselves into the election process through a will of the people. In the case of Iraq particularly, the insurgency will die down as the country stabilizes and US troops start going home. It won't end for some time, but these people that continue to fight their own countrymen will be deemed criminals and tried appropriately.

The war against 'radical islamic terrorisism' is a little bit different. Islamic terrorists are following philosophical teachings and the terror is just a means to an end. To go to war against this you have to destroy the source of the teachings - radical islam. This is exceedingly difficult, bordering on the 'only if you get them all standing in the middle of the desert and drop a nuke on their heads'. Philosophy is an intangible that you just can't fight. Its one of those things that allowd Christianity to survive in the face of incredible persecution. Philosophy doesn't really go away - so I would say that this war is inherently unwinnable.
 
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