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Can we please discuss this

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thx bro *grabs a bucket*

hopefully gaf stays strong with their beliefs in equality and doesn't use this as an excuse to bash religion.



:)

I can believe in equal rights and free exercise of religion and still have some harsh words for certain aspects of it, though.
 
hahahaha Rick Perry trying to get the Evangelicals

remember George H. W. Bush on Family Values, Family Values, Family Values and how Clinton rocked elder Bush
 
Did you read your post and mine in succession? I was not saying you summed up all of my thoughts or that I have said everything you have said.

My point was that you said "If it were a choice" then why would you care? Those are my thoughts exactly except I really believe it is a choice.

I feel that homosexuals should not be looked at or treated any differently than anybody else because we are all equal and in the same position.


You know what? I'm tired of raging against this (your) position on GAF and elsewhere. You aren't the worst person I've dealt with on this topic, and at least you're near middle ground in general.

You have some incorrect views on what makes someone gay. I say that not from a position of feeling you're in any way stupid, but now from one of someone who thinks there is hope for you.

Speak with more people who are gay. Read some books covering this topic that are not put out by the church, but by people who are gay and can help you come to terms with how it really works.

You are carrying around some wrong information, and are posting it on the net as if it were true. In the course of this, you are hurting and upsetting those that know that you are spreading misinformation.

Use this as an opportunity to grow and let truth into your life, because at this point, you think you're doing good but in truth are doing the exact opposite.

I'm glad that you think all people deserve equal treatment, but when you come to that position feeling that gay people are sinners and potentially "abominations" as the bible claims, your heart is already in the wrong place.
 
If one had to choose whether to be of any sexual orientation and an atheist or to be religious and straight, I'd recommend the former option.
 
If I feel homosexuality is a sin as it claims in the Bible then that is not in any way judging others or not tolerating them. That would be like saying because I feel like stealing is a sin then I am judging people who steal.

Yes, that's a judgment. You are applying a negative label based upon your opinion upon someone. That's practically the definition of being judgmental.
 
I don't believe that to be true for everyone.

That is a blanket statement and those are never true. But even so, why do gay people insist on this as if they need an uncontrollable excuse to be gay. "oops it's ok for me to be gay because I was born this way, can't help it, but if I wasn't I'd rather be straight because it's better".

I don't think that there is a facepalm gif appropriate for this.
 
Dunk, I have a question for you.

Your opinion is that being gay is a choice.

You say you require proof to believe otherwise. Why is evidence not good enough for you? Why are several rigorous studies not enough for you?
 
that's...nice?

Well, I mean, that's kind of what all those US nutjobs arguing against homosexuality with religious arguments are implying, right? Can't pray to Jesus with naughty thoughts about his penis if you're male! Civilization as we know it might go under otherwise!

Come to think of it: Why CAN you be a Christian and gay in the US?
 
Dunk, I have a question for you.

Your opinion is that being gay is a choice.

You say you require proof to believe otherwise. Why is evidence not good enough for you? Why are several rigorous studies not enough for you?

What are you, gay?
 
I like how you avoid the guys who are flat out saying homosexuality is a sin because the Bible says so.

Not avoiding at all. Those are ignorant comments that don't really deserve a response. One of those "they don't know any better" type of things. I'm more shocked by the comments from the people who are supposed to be rational and are all about treating people with equality, but in actuality turn out to be nothing but hypocrites.
 
Its nice to know that I am sinner by circumstances that are out of my reach

You shouldn't have chosen Adam and Eve as your representatives.

Oh wait you didn't...

But no matter, whatever god does is fair so that test in the garden was fair because whatever god does is fair.
 
Not avoiding at all. Those are ignorant comments that don't really deserve a response. One of those "they don't know any better" type of things. I'm more shocked by the comments from the people who are supposed to be rational and are all about treating people with equality, but in actuality turn out to be nothing but hypocrites.

See, here's the funny thing about "equality". People aren't in favor of equality, because everyone thinks their own views are the right ones. So the only logical way to define equality is to base it on things beyond our control. Race. Gender. Sexuality. Hair color. Etc.

Most people agree those are fair things to protect and to consider equal to each other.

However, religion is a CHOICE. You CHOOSE the religion that is right for you, you CHOOSE to follow its rules and CHOOSE to do right or wrong as it defines those terms.

People's choices are not equal. Otherwise, you'd have to defend EVERYONE's viewpoint as equal. This means Scientology and its Thetan detectors. Or believe who believe aliens visit them nightly. Or furries who actually believe a cat soul is inside them.

Can you say YOU treat all of those chosen beliefs as equal?
 
Scumbag theist: Demands evidence to change his beliefs.

Claims he doesn't need evidence to support his beliefs.

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However, religion is a CHOICE. You CHOOSE the religion that is right for you, you CHOOSE to follow its rules and CHOOSE to do right or wrong as it defines those terms.

People's choices are not equal. Otherwise, you'd have to defend EVERYONE's viewpoint as equal. This means Scientology and its Thetan detectors. Or believe who believe aliens visit them nightly. Or furries who actually believe a cat soul is inside them.

Can you say YOU treat all of those chosen beliefs as equal?

Do I treat all the different beliefs themselves equal? Of course not, it'd obviously be impossible due to contradictions. But I do treat the people who believe in them equally as long as they aren't causing any issues for me. I always think GAF is at that point too only to feel cheated when someone talks about equality, even of a belief, in one breath, only to throw around a playground insult in the next.
 
Do I treat all the different beliefs themselves equal? Of course not, it'd obviously be impossible due to contradictions. But I do treat the people who believe in them equally as long as they aren't causing any issues for me. I always think GAF is at that point too only to feel cheated when someone talks about equality, even of a belief, in one breath, only to throw around a playground insult in the next.

You shouldn't feel cheated--they shouldn't have used the term equality in the first place when talking about beliefs.

Choices and beliefs can never all be treated equally, and expecting people to do so is madness.
 
Do I treat all the different beliefs themselves equal? Of course not, it'd obviously be impossible due to contradictions. But I do treat the people who believe in them equally as long as they aren't causing any issues for me. I always think GAF is at that point too only to feel cheated when someone talks about equality, even of a belief, in one breath, only to throw around a playground insult in the next.

To be honest, I can't understand how it's possible that religion is more protected than sexual preference since objectively speaking, religion is rather trivial in terms of subject matter, while sexual preference is existential. "Either you can procreate by default or you can't" sort of outweighs "something else is out there that is aetherial, all-knowing and apparently not-caring, impossible to observe etc".
 
Other people have said it better...but the only people who genuinely think they can shift the gender they're attracted to at will are bisexuals. Dunk and others either don't actually believe the crap they're spewing, or they believe they can choose to enjoy same sex relations. No escaping it.

PS default preference !== majority preference. Some people have a default preference to use their left hand, but that does not mean they chose to be left-handed simply because more people have the opposite preference.
 
See, here's the funny thing about "equality". People aren't in favor of equality, because everyone thinks their own views are the right ones. So the only logical way to define equality is to base it on things beyond our control. Race. Gender. Sexuality. Hair color. Etc.

Most people agree those are fair things to protect and to consider equal to each other.

However, religion is a CHOICE. You CHOOSE the religion that is right for you, you CHOOSE to follow its rules and CHOOSE to do right or wrong as it defines those terms.

People's choices are not equal. Otherwise, you'd have to defend EVERYONE's viewpoint as equal. This means Scientology and its Thetan detectors. Or believe who believe aliens visit them nightly. Or furries who actually believe a cat soul is inside them.

Can you say YOU treat all of those chosen beliefs as equal?
But isn't that the point in of itself? People choose their beliefs, religion is indeed one of them. People choose things they want to believe in, and things they don't. The thing is, this applies to things that are outside of our control, such as race, gender, sexual orientation. People believe that certain races are inferior to others, certain genders are inferior to others, and certain sexual orientations are inferior to others. These decisions aren't completely motivated by religious beliefs though (although some are).

What you are saying is akin to saying something like differences in wealth and education. There are people who believe that those who are less wealthy and less educated have a lesser existence on the earth. Wealth and education can (at a certain extent) be a choice.

But that is completely beside the point. The subtle point being made is that not everyone who identifies with a group acts the same way. Do all black people dress a certain way, speak a certain way, only eat certain foods? Obviously not, and GAF of all places should know better. That is why its rather startling to see such a place that prides itself on having a tolerant community (and a surprisingly large Gay/Lesbian userbase) completely flip their stance when it comes to religion. Not only that, but it just drops to childish jabs that are on the level of system wars on the gaming side.


To be honest, I can't understand how it's possible that religion is more protected than sexual preference since objectively speaking, religion is rather trivial in terms of subject matter, while sexual preference is existential.
A thousand times yes. In that same breath I don't understand why it's so heavily discussed (and heated at that) when there are other REAL problems going on in America. When you have a country where corporate greed, racism, poverty, education and healthcare are real issues, insisting that Religion kills america is...kind of trivial.

That is not to say that there aren't a lot of religious nutjubs in america, there definitely are. The vitriol for them is unwarranted though...and honestly? It only seems to be from GAF.
 
You're not going to last long.

He's a bigot, he won't even get close to the bid, he's dumb as shit too :lol.

Activating semi giving a fux mode: I agree he won't come near the bid but, the man does have a right to say what he believes in. Just don't vote for him.
 
But that is completely beside the point. The subtle point being made is that not everyone who identifies with a group acts the same way. Do all black people dress a certain way, speak a certain way, only eat certain foods? Obviously not, and GAF of all places should know better. That is why its rather startling to see such a place that prides itself on having a tolerant community (and a surprisingly large Gay/Lesbian userbase) completely flip their stance when it comes to religion. Not only that, but it just drops to childish jabs that are on the level of system wars on the gaming side.

No, that's wrong. You're comparing a belief structure that specifically is designed around acting a certain way versus all those other groups, like race.

Religion is about behavior. It provides codes and rules to follow. It is not the same as race or gender, because those do not have pre-set behaviors that must be followed or else you lose your membership.

If you choose to be part of a religion, which you are free to do, you are joining a larger group. You don't get to decide who is part of it and who is not just because you have membership.

And you don't get to decide how the group is viewed on the outside.

That is not to say that there aren't a lot of religious nutjubs in america, there definitely are. The vitriol for them is unwarranted though...and honestly? It only seems to be from GAF.

This really, really, really isn't true at all. I don't mean this as an insult but it's quite clear from that statement you haven't read a lot of high traffic forums.

Compared to some places, GAF is remarkably tolerant, a few childish jabs here and there is NOTHING compared to the anger and rage out there.
 
There's a decent amount of bigots in the SF thread.
It is a pretty big assertion to call someone (much less a group of people) a bigot when you are going on nothing more than an offhand, out of context comment someone may have made.

But alas, its the easy thing to do.
 
Activating semi giving a fux mode: I agree he won't come near the bid but, the man does have a right to say what he believes in. Just don't vote for him.

No one is disagreeing with that. We're gawking at the fact that he's wearing his prejudice like a badge of honor.
 
sorry, statements of such profound ignorance and stupidity require responses of similarly appropriate shock.

Only a fucking enlarged foreheaded cave dweller would say that shit in the 21st century. But I forgot that's essentially what 90% of religious folk are.

I hate Perry for what he said, and agree that being gay is not a choice...

BUT, saying things like this is no different from what Perry said when it comes to offending a huge group of people. So try to make an argument without petty insults.

Keep in mind, I'm on your side, but it's just embarrassing to generalize like that.
 
Activating semi giving a fux mode: I agree he won't come near the bid but, the man does have a right to say what he believes in. Just don't vote for him.

That is literally no point at all. You're correct, he cannot be persecuted by the government for complaining about gays in the military. That is what "freedom of speech" protects.

He does not have the right to say what he wants with no expectation of criticism, rebuttal, or ridicule.
 
GAF of all places should know better. That is why its rather startling to see such a place that prides itself on having a tolerant community (and a surprisingly large Gay/Lesbian userbase) completely flip their stance when it comes to religion. Not only that, but it just drops to childish jabs that are on the level of system wars on the gaming side.

Yup.

Religion is the red-headed step child on GAF that rules don't seem to apply to.

I wish I could go to the gaming side and call someone "a fucking enlarged foreheaded cave dweller" when they say the believe some 360 feature is better than a PS3 feature, or vice versa, without being banned.
 
Yup.

Religion is the red-headed step child on GAF that rules don't seem to apply to.

I wish I could go to the gaming and call someone "a fucking enlarged foreheaded cave dweller" when they say the believe some 360 feature is better than a PS3 feature, or vice versa, without being banned.

Atheism vs religion is more like PC vs consoles at around 1998.
 
That is literally no point at all. You're correct, he cannot be persecuted by the government for complaining about gays in the military. That is what "freedom of speech" protects.

He does not have the right to say what he wants with no expectation of criticism, rebuttal, or ridicule.

Agreed
 
Religion is about behavior. It provides codes and rules to follow. It is not the same as race or gender, because those do not have pre-set behaviors that must be followed or else you lose your membership.

If you choose to be part of a religion, which you are free to do, you are joining a larger group. You don't get to decide who is part of it and who is not just because you have membership.

Religion is not that black and white. In Christianity one large part of the teaching is coming to terms with the fact that everyone, christians and non-christians included, are "sinners".

If you "lost your membership" if you didn't adhere to the "fundemental beliefs" (I'll just go along with this for now), then nobody could call themselves a Christian.

but then again what is wrong with that? I personally find no problem with not having to associate myself with a group of people. That's just me though

And It is obvious what kind of image the fundemental christian provides. America has lots of examples. Once again though, GAF should know better than to judge an entire group by the actions of some. As far as I'm concerned, taking the "90% of people who identify by religion are just ignorant cave-dwellers" stance is the easy thing to do. The harder thing to do is to try to figure out why so many people choose to follow religion. Not everyone is an idiot. People can think for themselves and it's insulting to them to say they don't because of a simple religious belief.



I'm am going to say this: As a "christian" (or whatever, i don't really care what i'm called), those who say "you are going to hell because you don't believe in god" are full of crap.
 
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