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[Apple Turnover]

And a shirtless Trudeau photobombing a wedding

 

[CazTGG]

Yeah, compared to some countries that will remain nameless, our politics are downright boring right now.

I swear the biggest thing to make a ripple was the Tragically Hip concert in Kingston.

Hey now, don't discount elbows and "Potential Official Opposition Leader Proposes Anti-Canadian immigrant screenings". That's the stuff of political legends, right up there with MapleGate.

 

[killer rin]

I'm way, way, way out of the loop of Canadian politics. Can someone give me a brief rundown of what's going on right now?

I made a thread about the government allowing doctors to prescribe heroin now, thats pretty cool. That said, political news is pretty dull at the moment because parliament is still on summer break until next week

 

[Earthstrike]

Woah, hold on a second. Income verification isn't a part of their due diligence for foreign clients? Speculation of housing prices aside, wouldn't that leave those banks with an unacceptable amount of risk?

I'm willing to bet that the down payment thresholds required for these types of homes were such that they only attract the kind of people who are not very likely to default. If you require 35% down payment on a 2 million dollar home, you're the kind of person who 700k cash on hand. This is just speculation but I do think it's quite likely that a chinese citizen with that kind of money on hand will not be likely to default.

 

[Fuzzy]

Money launderers are usually pretty good at producing cash when they don't have to show the source of that cash.

 

[SRG01]

Money launderers are usually pretty good at producing cash when they don't have to show the source of that cash.

This was the second thing that came to mind. No income verification, large down payment, flip the house when you're done... that's perfect for laundering.

 

[Tiktaalik]

I'm way, way, way out of the loop of Canadian politics. Can someone give me a brief rundown of what's going on right now?

Nothing at all has happened since the election

 

[Morrigan Stark]

At a time when Muslims need as much solidarity and support from people in leadership positions in society posts like yours and tweets like that guy's have everything to do with the alienation and insecurity that Muslims feel in the West.

You really think there's no way to show support to Muslims without going into a segregated mosque?

Here's what I heard you say: "Muslims are so terrible that no elected official should associate with them on their religious holidays. Let alone the PM of the country".

Jesus! That's nowhere close to what I said. How about you hear what I actually say instead of making something up and then acting offended?

Now you tell me what's rude.

Strawmanning others, for one thing.

 

[Azih]

You really think there's no way to show support to Muslims without going into a segregated mosque?

Considering probably every mosque in Ottawa is segregated and Eid prayers happen at mosques? No there isn't during Eid.

Here's the thing. Every other religion in Canada gets a nice little visit during their most important holidays as a gesture of shared celebration. A little bit of mutual appreciation.

You're the one who's making 'Islam' a different case. Does JT support segregation at Yom Kippur when Orthodox Judaism is just as segregated as mainstream Islam? Does JT support the preference among some Hindus for male babies when he participates in Diwali? No. Because he's not 'coddling religious sentiment' he's just going to a community and going "Hey fellow Canadians. The rest of us are really happy for you on your special day!" Apparently according to you us Muslims shouldn't get that unless we pass some sort of unwritten ideological purity test.

You don't like social conservatism? Fine. I don't either. You know what's an especially terrible time to bash an entire religious congregation though? On our holiday at a time when many politicians are making hay out of demonizing us and we're being screamed at on the streets and even being attacked physically.

I have no idea what your intentions were in making a "Disappointed that the PM visited some Muslims on Eid" post. I do know where on the Overton window that post lies though and it's terribly unnerving to me at a time when Trump might win based on 'extreme vetting' of me and mine.

I can't read your thoughts but I do know what my reaction is which is being told "Hey Azih you know you and your family aren't really Canadian eh? You know you don't really belong here right?" And "Canadians should shun you Muslims until you stop your 'barbaric cultural practices'".

 

[Blue Submarine No. 6]

Woah, hold on a second. Income verification isn't a part of their due diligence for foreign clients? Speculation of housing prices aside, wouldn't that leave those banks with an unacceptable amount of risk?

There's a requirement of a minimum 35% down payment... worst case scenario, the bank gets the property for 65% of the actual value, barring a very unlikely, very severe crash in the market. (And a crash that severe would have extremely detrimental effects across the entire economy; a few defaults would be the least of the bank's worries.) Actually, I suspect these banks would be rather pleased if the foreign buyers default...

 

[gabbo]

I'm willing to bet that the down payment thresholds required for these types of homes were such that they only attract the kind of people who are not very likely to default. If you require 35% down payment on a 2 million dollar home, you're the kind of person who 700k cash on hand. This is just speculation but I do think it's quite likely that a chinese citizen with that kind of money on hand will not be likely to default.

The article does speculate a bit on where a lot of that cash comes from

 

[Stumpokapow]

You're the one who's making 'Islam' a different case. Does JT support segregation at Yom Kippur when Orthodox Judaism is just as segregated as mainstream Islam? Does JT support the preference among some Hindus for male babies when he participates in Diwali? No.

i know this is personal for you and I disagree with Morrigan on the carrot versus stick calculation here but this is a really bad argument.

If her stated argument is that she disagrees with Trudeau attending a gender segregated event then responding with "what if he hypothetically attended another gender segregated event that wasn't Muslim? You'd be fine with that" assumes bad faith on her part and is rhetorically stupid because she can just reply "no that is bad too" and then you're pantsless.

Likewise, when you say that Hindus have regressive social practices, there's conceptual slippage. A Diwali party doesn't have speakers putting women in the shoe closet or saying "We have a well documented cultural preference for boys, now let's spend the night talking about how boys are better". The reason the mosque situation is exceptional for Morrigan is not merely the attitudes being held by people, but those attitudes being put into practice at an event the Prime Minister attends.

It's not Morrigan being a covert anti-feminist Islamophobe latching on to feminism to turn the screws with Muslims, so it's baffling you would take that tack to push back against her.

 

[Azih]

i know this is personal for you and I disagree with Morrigan on the carrot versus stick calculation

Carrots and sticks Stump? Seriously? Are we mules to be trained? What other community in Canada gets to be treated to your carrots or Morrigan's sticks? What is going on here? The guy just wished Muslims a Happy Eid at the closest big mosque! This shouldn't be viewed as a reward or withheld as a punishment. It's just a thing that happens for every religious community. Nothing more and nothing less.

And my point in bringing up other faiths is that no politician gets accused of 'religious coddling of socially regressive beliefs' by attending Christmas mass in a Catholic Church even though Catholics blatantly don't allow women to be priests. That's an attitude being put into practice too. But there it's just celebrating a holiday event. But when it comes to us Muslims and 'Islam' Eid is apparently free reign for shaming and blaming anyone who visits us. Time to get shoved under a microscope and get judged as a collective again! Eid Mubarak y'all!

If you're seriously stating that there isn't an obvious double standard here then I'd love to see how it isn't. And yes that double standard hits me deeply. How could it not? This isn't a theoretical coffee shop argument. It's my life. It's the life of my family and friends and it would be grand for us not be viewed as objects of suspicion and derision for a change. It'd be great if people weren't disappointed at people reaching out to us on our day of celebration. It'd be wonderful if Donald Trump wasn't a thing but he is and that's the context in which this is happening.... And that context matters.

that tack to push back against her.

I'm not pushing back against Morrigan as person. Like I said I'm not a mind reader. I don't know if Morrigan is an Islamaphobe or a feminist or what. I'm not labeling her as anything. But posts like hers and tweets like the one she supports others me and my community and holds us to standards no other community in Canada is held to.

Morrigan wants to bash social conservatism? Great. Go for it. But for God's sake (lol) let us feel like just another valued group of Canadians in the mosaic that is Canada for Eid at least.

I guess that's too much to ask. I guess we are uniquely terrible.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Carrots and sticks Stump? Seriously? Are we mules to be trained? What other community in Canada gets to be treated to your carrots or Morrigan's sticks? What is going on here? The guy just wished Muslims a Happy Eid at the closest big mosque! This shouldn't be viewed as a reward or withheld as a punishment. It's just a thing that happens for every religious community. Nothing more and nothing less.

Yeah, I don't deserve to be treated this way so I won't be continuing this conversation.

 

[Azih]

Yeah, I don't deserve to be treated this way so I won't be continuing this conversation.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. What is it that I have said that's treating you badly here? At the very minimum carrots and sticks was a terrible choice of phrasing.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

I don't want to get into a fight over it either but while I think there's a conversation to be had about the treatment of women by Islam as an organized faith or by individual Muslims, given the current climate of islamophobia and horrific attacks against people solely based on their religion or appearance of religion, now is not the time. Drawing battlelines and saying you won't visit a mosque due to gender separation strikes me as culturally insensitive.

I also really do not like the way right-wing politicians have been trying to use this kind of issue to try to stir up infighting among liberals/progressive/leftists. It's wholly transparent what they are doing, and falling for it just strikes me as odd. There's nothing wrong with being both a feminist and supportive of Muslims, or a queer ally and supportive of Muslims.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

i know this is personal for you and I disagree with Morrigan on the carrot versus stick calculation here but this is a really bad argument.

If her stated argument is that she disagrees with Trudeau attending a gender segregated event then responding with "what if he hypothetically attended another gender segregated event that wasn't Muslim? You'd be fine with that" assumes bad faith on her part and is rhetorically stupid because she can just reply "no that is bad too" and then you're pantsless.

Likewise, when you say that Hindus have regressive social practices, there's conceptual slippage. A Diwali party doesn't have speakers putting women in the shoe closet or saying "We have a well documented cultural preference for boys, now let's spend the night talking about how boys are better". The reason the mosque situation is exceptional for Morrigan is not merely the attitudes being held by people, but those attitudes being put into practice at an event the Prime Minister attends.

It's not Morrigan being a covert anti-feminist Islamophobe latching on to feminism to turn the screws with Muslims, so it's baffling you would take that tack to push back against her.

Thank you. And yes, you are correct; I would certainly also be disappointed if Trudeau went to an event from a different religion/ideology/whatever that practiced explicit gender inequality

And my point in bringing up other faiths is that no politician gets accused of 'religious coddling of socially regressive beliefs' by attending Christmas mass in a Catholic Church even though Catholics blatantly don't allow women to be priests. That's an attitude being put into practice too.

If you think I'm a fan of politicians supporting the Catholic Church, then I'm sorry, all I can say is LOL. (You can celebrate a holiday without going to church, anyway.)

I'm not pushing back against Morrigan as person. Like I said I'm not a mind reader. I don't know if Morrigan is an Islamaphobe or a feminist or what.

If you don't know, feel free to ask. I'm pretty open about my views.

By the way, I am very much a feminist, and I am also anti-religious. The more regressive the beliefs promoted by a religion are, the harder I tend to push back against it, particularly when it comes to gender equality.

I would not call myself an Islamophobe. I am as horrified as you are when I hear about Muslim women being attacked on the streets, or Muslim men and women being profiled at airports, and so on. I don't want to ban, deport, etc. Muslims or treat them as second class citizens. I do very much have a big problem with Islam as a religion/belief system (not just the gender stuff but other reasons too), however, and I won't hold back on what I think of it despite that*. Just as I am also horrified about Christians being persecuted by other extremists across the world, but will still criticize the Bible and Christianity regardless. I can separate the two.

* I won't go out of my way to offend people, like telling a random Muslim co-worker "btw here's why the Quran sucks" or telling my very Catholic great-aunt what I think of the Church I'm not a mean-spirited bitch (well, ok, sometimes I am xD but I try not to be!). But if we start to have a conversation about religious beliefs, then it's fair game.

I guess that's too much to ask. I guess we are uniquely terrible.

Sigh. Okay then.

 

[Boogie]

Yeah, I don't deserve to be treated this way so I won't be continuing this conversation.

Haha, "treated this way", what?

*Insert "who are you talking to?" Gif here*

 

[matthewwhatever]

Anita Vandenbeld (MP for Ottawa West-Nepean) commented on the mosque visit:

I have spent much of my professional career overseas working in countries whose societal norms were rapidly changing. In those countries, I would wear what was socially acceptable while also fighting to give a voice to the agents of change. Many of the women who attend the Ottawa Mosque are proud feminists, friends of mine and strong voices in our community. As an MP, my job is to be there to listen to and support them. Any representative who would choose not to be present and to not listen to members of their community would be failing in their duties as an elected representative.

After my first speech at this mosque as an elected representative, I was approached by a woman who had recently immigrated to Canada. She told me that seeing an elected leader come to the mosque made her feel, for the first time, that Canada was truly her home. I have heard much of the same and more following the prime minister’s visit.

Again, anyone focusing on the gender segregation aspect of the visit is, at this point, either a concern troll (which I don't think anyone here is), or missing the point entirely. And if that point isn't explicit enough for you, here's Trudeau himself to lay it out:

"This country didn't happen by accident. And it won't continue without effort. When we think about integration and success we can't be overly impatient.''

"The question is, do you engage or participate or say 'I'm not going to talk to you until you hit the norm or the perfect ideal that we all aspire to.' I think (the latter) is wrong.''

...


Anyway, to lighten the mood around here, let's focus on something we can all agree on: Brad Trost is a hilarious moron.

 

[Kifimbo]

There's nothing wrong with being both a feminist and supportive of Muslims, or a queer ally and supportive of Muslims.

It is only wrong when it's Christians/Catholics. See the post just above me.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Yeah, I don't deserve to be treated this way so I won't be continuing this conversation.

Stump, if I may interject.

Azih was merely highlighting the inequality we tend to get treated to when it comes to what standards a community should follow, especially when many other communities get a free pass simply for not being the "flavour du jour" for athiests and right wing conservatives

His reply to your post was heavy with emotion although I agree with the points he raised.

Maybe it's not something you feel, but when we are constantly attacked for being "barbaric" and "backwards" from literally everyone while also noticing that other cultures and religions have similar behaviour but get a free "pass" from the general public and media you can't help but feel the double standards at play.

Edit:

I mean look at the flooding thread regarding eid and Dhaka, there's more than a handful of posters who don't even try to acknowledge the shit tier sewage system that is present in India coupled with the fact that it's flood season - all they want to say is hur durr "barbaric"

 

[gabbo]

Anyway, to lighten the mood around here, let's focus on something we can all agree on: Brad Trost is a hilarious moron.

Hopefully he stays below the radar as the article implies.

 

[Kifimbo]

Head of StatsCan just resigned, because the government is meddling in the agency business.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-independence/article31931485/?click=sf_globe

Sunny ways.

 

[explodet]

Head of StatsCan just resigned, because the government is meddling in the agency business.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-independence/article31931485/?click=sf_globe

Reading that sentence gave me flashbacks to 2010.

 

[SRG01]

To be specific, it's not the government but rather that Shared Services Canada is enroaching on its ability to be independent.

For those of you who don't know what SSC is, it's the IT services branch started by the Harper Conservatives to centralize various services. It's the same agency behind Pheonix, I believe.

 

[Kifimbo]

To be specific, it's not the government but rather that Shared Services Canada is enroaching on its ability to be independent.

Except Smith clearly says "I made every effort to convince the current government to correct the situation" and "I have not succeeded". So it's not a bureaucratic decision, it's a political one. They promised to reverse course and they didn't.

 

[SRG01]

Except Smith clearly says "I made every effort to convince the current government to correct the situation" and "I have not succeeded". So it's not a bureaucratic decision, it's a political one. They promised to reverse course and they didn't.

To be fair though, the current government just can't destroy an entire department's -- that is, the SSC's -- mandate without having complete chaos throughout the public service. Granting StatsCan a general exemption from SSC would only make things worse. (edit) It would potentially create the demand for more changes in other departments too...

The whole thing is similar to the Phoenix situation, in that scrapping or introducing more changes would create more problems.

I think part of the contention boils down to what is meant by operational independence -- should there be a large firewall between StatsCan and other governmental departments, or should its mandate be independent, while sharing some operational overlap with other branches.

 

[killer rin]

In other news, the Ontario Progressive Conservatives have somehow found out how to revive the 2 week old argument of Brown and his hatered of SexEd through a leaked email. Brown 'was prepared' to say he'd scrap sex-ed curriculum, according to email .

The statement from Brown referenced in Pappalardo's email that day also said, "teachers should teach facts, not values."

Call it a hunch, but this might actually be the hill that the PC's want to die on.

 

[Azih]

Thank you. And yes, you are correct; I would certainly also be disappointed if Trudeau went to an event from a different religion/ideology/whatever that practiced explicit gender inequality

Then look up Trudeau's visit to an Ottawa Gurdwara that is clearly just as segregated as any mosque. Nobody tweeted or posted their disappointment at Trudeau there. There's only one reason why for that difference and that is because the Muslim community is under both a microscope and a pall of 'Anti Canadian' suspicion that no other community faces. It's this hyper scrutiny and normalization of suspicion that I am highlighting.

And did I react badly to this demonstrable double standard? Yeah but frankly I should react badly to a double standard especially when it's directed at a vilified community that's desperately in need of some inclusive sentiment.

If you think I'm a fan of politicians supporting the Catholic Church, then I'm sorry, all I can say is LOL.

I think the visit to a church or gurdwara wouldn't be an event that you would even think of posting or tweeting your disappointment about with the clear implication that Trudeau shouldn't have done it. But you did with a mosque. What's the difference?

By the way, I am very much a feminist, and I am also anti-religious.

I completely believe that you are being sincere in your intent and in your intersection. The thing is that they don't make a difference to the effect of the timing of the wave of criticism that you participated in. Trudeau has had to defend himself for being a nice neighbor and going over to say Eid Mubarak in person. This is nuts. It shifts the Overton window to a place where it's harder for politicians to defend us and easier for them to attack us.

I never said you're wrong for criticizing regressive social behavior. I said you're contributing to the othering of Muslims in Canada by bashing Trudeau for showing some solidarity and common feeling with Muslims on Eid. Maybe find another opportunity to bring it up?

I do very much have a big problem with Islam as a religion/belief system (not just the gender stuff but other reasons too), however, and I won't hold back on what I think of it despite that

Here's another issue that I have raised repeatedly in the past. Maybe you don't care but when you criticize 'Islam' as a monolith then you deny us Muslims our individuality. Islam comprises people as diverse as Bin Laden, Malala Yousafai, Muhammad Ali, and Irshad Manji. These people all have or had completely different faiths but you're attacking all of them in one go. Just a little specifity would go a hell of a long way. "Some versions of Islam" rather than just 'Islam'. And not when somebody is being nice to us on Eid.

 

[orochi91]

Anita Vandenbeld (MP for Ottawa West-Nepean) commented on the mosque visit:




Again, anyone focusing on the gender segregation aspect of the visit is, at this point, either a concern troll (which I don't think anyone here is), or missing the point entirely. And if that point isn't explicit enough for you, here's Trudeau himself to lay it out:

Ayyy~~~

Well said; Trudeau and Anita stay winning.

 

[TheRealTalker]

the F-35 planes that they said was combat ready a month ago are now being grounded

the only thing going for this plane is its looks

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I think the visit to a church or gurdwara wouldn't be an event that you would even think of posting or tweeting your disappointment about with the clear implication that Trudeau shouldn't have done it. But you did with a mosque. What's the difference?

I hadn't heard about it.

Now that you told me, I'm disappointed in Trudeau again. Thanks for informing me, I guess?

I never said you're wrong for criticizing regressive social behavior. I said you're contributing to the othering of Muslims in Canada by bashing Trudeau for showing some solidarity and common feeling with Muslims on Eid. Maybe find another opportunity to bring it up?

Oh? What opportunity would be appropriate that would avoid hurting the feelings of some Muslims?

Here's another issue that I have raised repeatedly in the past. Maybe you don't care but when you criticize 'Islam' as a monolith then you deny us Muslims our individuality.

Nonsense. I don't deny the individuality of each Christian whenever I attack the Bible either.

Islam comprises people as diverse as Bin Laden, Malala Yousafai, Muhammad Ali, and Irshad Manji. These people all have or had completely different faiths but you're attacking all of them in one go.

Again, nonsense. I do not attack individuals (unless, of course, they are actually abhorrent individuals, such as in the case of Bin Laden).

Just a little specifity would go a hell of a long way. "Some versions of Islam" rather than just 'Islam'. And not when somebody is being nice to us on Eid.

Well... Whichever version of Islam that takes the Quran seriously as scripture, and that thinks the prophet Muhammad was someone worthy of respect or worship. Is that specific enough? ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

Edit: I feel like this is getting derailed about a debate on Islam and Islamic beliefs in general, which I don't think is appropriate for this thread. I guess feel free to make a separate thread or PM me if you want to keep talking about this, but unless a mod says it's OK to continue I think we should probably leave it at that.

Again, anyone focusing on the gender segregation aspect of the visit is, at this point, either a concern troll (which I don't think anyone here is), or missing the point entirely. And if that point isn't explicit enough for you, here's Trudeau himself to lay it out:

Orrrr they disagree with Trudeau's sense of priorities? Nah, that couldn't be it...

 

[orochi91]

the F-35 planes that they said was combat ready a month ago are now being grounded

the only thing going for this plane is its looks

What will it take to completely axe this program?

Or is Canada too deep into this and unable to completely pull out?

Looks pretty slick tho

 

[Sean C]

This is a good overview of the upcoming fall legislative session.

I was particularly wondering what Amarjeet Sohi was doing on the infrastructure file.

 

[killer rin]

This is a good overview of the upcoming fall legislative session.

I was particularly wondering what Amarjeet Sohi was doing on the infrastructure file.

I am honesly excited to see how this upcomming session of Parliament plays out, mainly because all of the commitees and consultations that have been started are coming back within this period, with the one I'm most interested in being Electoral Reform

 

[SURGEdude]

I don't want to get into a fight over it either but while I think there's a conversation to be had about the treatment of women by Islam as an organized faith or by individual Muslims, given the current climate of islamophobia and horrific attacks against people solely based on their religion or appearance of religion, now is not the time. Drawing battlelines and saying you won't visit a mosque due to gender separation strikes me as culturally insensitive.

I also really do not like the way right-wing politicians have been trying to use this kind of issue to try to stir up infighting among liberals/progressive/leftists. It's wholly transparent what they are doing, and falling for it just strikes me as odd. There's nothing wrong with being both a feminist and supportive of Muslims, or a queer ally and supportive of Muslims.

So because of islamaphobia suddenly gender equality gets thrown under the bus? I can't believe a rational person would pose such an argument.

Cultural relativism should never extend to embracing segregation on any level. The fact that it needs to be pointed out to people in liberal democracies is frankly scary as hell.

There are plenty of ways to engage and show support for muslims that don't involve participating in discrimination at worst and separate but equal at best.

And as others pointed out, yeah the same applies to Catholics.

 

[Azih]

I hadn't heard about it.

Exactly. This speaks to the hyper scrutiny that Muslims face in Canada. Having a community subjected to such constant hostile attention is not good for anybody. Especially when it needs solidarity and help, not the regular dogpiles.

Now that you told me, I'm disappointed in Trudeau again. Thanks for informing me, I guess?

Other than showcasing the double standards Mulsims operate under in Canada there are a few other things here.

First Trudeau isn't going to gurdwaras and mosques and churches and going "BOY YOUR DOUBLE STANDARDS FOR GENDER ARE REALLY AWESOME. CAN I HAVE SOME TIPS ON HOW TO SPREAD THAT THROUGHOUT ALL OF CANADIAN SOCIETY PLEASE?". No he's just going "Hey Sikhs/Muslims/whatever people. We're really glad to have you included in the Canadian family. *thumbs up*."

This was and is a good will gesture towards a community. That's it. It's your post and that tweet and the wave of absurd criticism Trudeau faced that turned it into something else.

Meeting with people means he's meeting with people not that he endorses everything they do. Trudeau wouldn't meet with anybody if one of the prerequisites were that they're perfect and agree with him on everything.

Second your disappointment, added to the significant other criticism that Trudeau faced over a innocuous happy Eid message, makes it harder for other politicians to show solidarity with Muslims and makes it easier for politicians to bash Muslims. Which shifts the Overton Window in a direction that people like Trump and Farage can take advantage of. I've talked about this a few times and you haven't addressed it. And this doesn't mean you can't criticize beliefs and acts that you don't like. I've already said how to do it in a way that doesn't demonize Muslims as a community at large. I.e: Be specific for Pete's sake!.

Oh? What opportunity would be appropriate that would avoid hurting the feelings of some Muslims?

As I've said, not when someone is just paying us a neighbourly visit on our day of celebration.

Nonsense. I don't deny the individuality of each Christian whenever I attack the Bible either.

If you project your understanding of Christanity onto all Christians and go "this is what your faith really is and what you really believe; nuts to what you think." Then yeah you kinda are. If you attacked your understanding of the Bible and some denominations of Christianity then that's different.

Again, nonsense. I do not attack individuals (unless, of course, they are actually abhorrent individuals, such as in the case of Bin Laden).

Here's the thing about the "I hate Islam, but don't hate Muslims!" approach. It's a nice bit of sophistry but it doesn't work.

It doesn't work because us devout Muslims, by definition, take our sense of right and wrong, and our worldview from Islam. So if you hate 'Islam' and I get my ethics and my mindset very heavily from Islam then of course you hate what you think I think and what you think I might do.

You might have no problem holding onto the cognitive dissonance of "Well I hate everything you believe in but you're just fine as a person Azih!" but plenty of people don't and go "Boy if Islam is terrible than devout Muslims believe terrible things. There's a HIJABI! EVIL!"

The solution? just change "I don't like Islam" to "I don't like some kinds of Islam". Simple. The three easy words also keeps you from, I am sure inadvertently, lumping Irshad Manji in with ISIS members, which is obviously a problem.

Well... Whichever version of Islam that takes the Quran seriously as scripture, and that thinks the prophet Muhammad was someone worthy of respect or worship. Is that specific enough? ¯_(&#12484_/¯

Not even a little bit.
Because what you think the Quran says and I think the Quran says are probably not even remotely similar.
Because who you think the Prophet Muhammad was and who I think the Prophet Muhammad was are probably two completely different people.

And yet you are taking your understandings of the two things and foisting them onto devout Muslims. A little bit of nuance would go hell of a long way to acknowledge the fact that there are as many versions of Islam in the world as there are Muslims because y'now we're humans and have different opinions.

Edit: I feel like this is getting derailed about a debate on Islam and Islamic beliefs in general, which I don't think is appropriate for this thread. I guess feel free to make a separate thread or PM me if you want to keep talking about this, but unless a mod says it's OK to continue I think we should probably leave it at that.

You can always PM me if you want. This really is a bit more general than just Islam though. It's a multicultural world. We're not helped by holding blanket beliefs about what other people believe.

 

[matthewwhatever]

Orrrr they disagree with Trudeau's sense of priorities? Nah, that couldn't be it...

Then with all due respect, you may want to re-examine your priorities. Again, no one -- apart from maybe, possibly, doubtfully Azih, but I wouldn't presume to speak for him -- is defending gender segregation. But right at this second, no one is trying to deny that all women are Canadian citizens, especially not now that Harper is out of power. There is, however, a political party that is trying to suggest Muslims shouldn't be Canadian citizens. I think that's a pretty good reason to publicly stand with them, even if Trudeau doesn't agree with every single thing they believe.

Besides, the way to get people to change regressive beliefs isn't to shun them and loudly denounce them. If Trudeau wants to make them feel at home here -- and then, ideally, to embrace more progressive ideas -- he should just keep doing what he's doing, and ignore the concern trolls who try to suggest he's not really a feminist because he dared to treat some people as human beings.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

So because of islamaphobia suddenly gender equality gets thrown under the bus? I can't believe a rational person would pose such an argument.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

You don't even need to look any further than this very thread to see that attacks on Islamic institutions or ways of life can be construed as attacks on muslims in general that really aren't appreciated, especially lately.

In any case, I also really don't feel that I, anglo-christian-turned-athiest Whitey McWhiterson, am in any place to tell the muslim people to abandon a 1000+ year tradition just because it makes me, an outsider, uncomfortable. It's overwhelmingly a discussion and a thing for muslim women to fight for, should they even want to.

Maybe you're not a white atheist (but given the tone that I'd expect more from /r/athiesm than GAF, probably?) but if you're an outsider maybe, just maybe, it's really not your business to try and force your way of life on muslim women.

 

[Tiktaalik]

This is a good overview of the upcoming fall legislative session.

I was particularly wondering what Amarjeet Sohi was doing on the infrastructure file.

If we accept his message that middle-class economic well-being is the central goal of the Trudeau government, a tight cluster of files—and not the highest-profile ones—takes on greater importance for the fall. The underlying challenge is huge. Trudeau and his inner circle ran on the premise that Stephen Harper’s Conservatives had failed dismally in delivering economic growth. They also argued that the middle class has been denied its fair share of new national wealth back to the 1970s.

Yet the prospects for palpably stronger economic expansion emerging again anytime soon look poor (as our Jason Kirby explains here). Just last week Bank of Canada senior deputy governor Carolyn Wilkins delivered a sobering speech in London on how governments around the world must face the prospect of slower growth. Wilkins pointed to deep, intractable forces, like aging populations and sluggish advances in productivity, for which there are no easy answers. What, if anything, can the Trudeau Liberals hope to do to lean hard against such global forces?

It's going to be incredibly hard for the Liberals to create growth.

One of the issues that has risen to the top of the agenda is to somehow bring about an orderly deflation of the unsustainable housing bubbles in Vancouver and Toronto. Meanwhile these housing bubbles are actually what is fueling job growth in Toronto and Vancouver, the two areas of the country that are actually creating jobs. 1/4 of BC's GDP is now housing related. So with a contraction in housing you'll accordingly see a contraction in the economy.

 

[gutter_trash]

I too disagree with Trudeau attending a gender segregated event.

Being lovey dovey accepting religious diversity should have limits.

Especially when gender equality should always be above mythological religious beliefs

I'm not on page with the PQ's stance on absolute secularism because the PQ's motives are driven by Nationalism and Identity poo

But the line has to be drawn on attending ceremonies and events that do segregate on gender

 

[SRG01]

It's going to be incredibly hard for the Liberals to create growth.

One of the issues that has risen to the top of the agenda is to somehow bring about an orderly deflation of the unsustainable housing bubbles in Vancouver and Toronto. Meanwhile these housing bubbles are actually what is fueling job growth in Toronto and Vancouver, the two areas of the country that are actually creating jobs. 1/4 of BC's GDP is now housing related. So with a contraction in housing you'll accordingly see a contraction in the economy.

Mmm, I have problems with this point. If the housing bubble is indeed an asset bubble, then it wouldn't actually contribute to the overall jobs market in Vancouver/Toronto as it would be based on speculation and movement of money. The bubble would definitely have some sort of limited feedback with regards to salaries, but job growth is somewhat harder to see.

An asset bubble would definitely increase GDP, but that's similar to Alberta and its dutch disease.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

Mmm, I have problems with this point. If the housing bubble is indeed an asset bubble, then it wouldn't actually contribute to the overall jobs market in Vancouver/Toronto as it would be based on speculation and movement of money. The bubble would definitely have some sort of limited feedback with regards to salaries, but job growth is somewhat harder to see.

An asset bubble would definitely increase GDP, but that's similar to Alberta and its dutch disease.

There are direct spinoffs from asset bubbles. Tradespeople for example, investment bankers, real estate agents and legal people. These have multiplier effect as well (retail). There are also indirect benefits of just way more money flowing around, for example more tax revenue leading to more government expenditure and therefore jobs.

 

[Azih]

Mmm, I have problems with this point. If the housing bubble is indeed an asset bubble, then it wouldn't actually contribute to the overall jobs market in Vancouver/Toronto as it would be based on speculation and movement of money. The bubble would definitely have some sort of limited feedback with regards to salaries, but job growth is somewhat harder to see.

An asset bubble would definitely increase GDP, but that's similar to Alberta and its dutch disease.

Crazy housing prices means a lotta developers rushing in to start building projects.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

Not to mention a lot of people actually can get very rich with massive bubbles like this if they get out at the right time. If you had bought a house in Richmond 10 years ago and recently downsized to a condo, you're sitting pretty with a ton of money which can be spent on plenty of other things.

Even those that don't get rich can feel like their rich and just spend like mad.

 

[matthewwhatever]

It's going to be incredibly hard for the Liberals to create growth.

One of the issues that has risen to the top of the agenda is to somehow bring about an orderly deflation of the unsustainable housing bubbles in Vancouver and Toronto. Meanwhile these housing bubbles are actually what is fueling job growth in Toronto and Vancouver, the two areas of the country that are actually creating jobs. 1/4 of BC's GDP is now housing related. So with a contraction in housing you'll accordingly see a contraction in the economy.

It's actually worse than this -- half of Canada's overall GDP growth comes from housing. If they can pull it off, it'd be amazing, but they have pretty much no margin for error.

I too disagree with Trudeau attending a gender segregated event.

...well you've shown yourself time and again to be a bigot, so I think we all assumed that.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Then with all due respect, you may want to re-examine your priorities.

No thanks. Gender equality will forever be more important than religious acceptance.

Besides, the way to get people to change regressive beliefs isn't to shun them and loudly denounce them.

Oh hell no. You only have to look at the Civil Rights movement in the US to see that this isn't true.
Just look at LGBT activists. You think they earned their rights by playing nice with the regressive religious right?

I too disagree with Trudeau attending a gender segregated event.

Being lovey dovey accepting religious diversity should have limits.

Especially when gender equality should always be above mythological religious beliefs

I'm not on page with the PQ's stance on absolute secularism because the PQ's motives are driven by Nationalism and Identity poo

But the line has to be drawn on attending ceremonies and events that do segregate on gender

Aye.

...well you've shown yourself time and again to be a bigot, so I think we all assumed that.

What the...?! Okay, far be it from me to become gutter_trash's BFF or anything, and I find his blind worship of the Liberals to be really creepy and all, but when has he ever expressed bigotry? And how in the flying fuck is prioritizing gender equality over religion a sign of bigotry? If anything, I'd say it's quite frankly the opposite.

 

[SURGEdude]

That's not what I'm saying at all.

You don't even need to look any further than this very thread to see that attacks on Islamic institutions or ways of life can be construed as attacks on muslims in general that really aren't appreciated, especially lately.

In any case, I also really don't feel that I, anglo-christian-turned-athiest Whitey McWhiterson, am in any place to tell the muslim people to abandon a 1000+ year tradition just because it makes me, an outsider, uncomfortable. It's overwhelmingly a discussion and a thing for muslim women to fight for, should they even want to.

Maybe you're not a white atheist (but given the tone that I'd expect more from /r/athiesm than GAF, probably?) but if you're an outsider maybe, just maybe, it's really not your business to try and force your way of life on muslim women.

I'm not sure where you got the idea I was trying to force my way of life- let's call it equality- on anybody. I just don't think that the only way to engage the islamic population is to participate and give tacit endorsement of sexist segregation.

And your discomfort at engaging with people in a way that encourages justice and equality to those being oppressed and treated as others makes you no different than the person who doesn't speak up when you hear a racist joke or comment.

It doesn't make you a bad person, but it does make you somebody who fundamentally misunderstands the way in which we bring justice to more people everywhere in spite of some discomfort for all parties involved. When you say 1000+ year tradition, you use it as a reason not to act. I see it as 1000 years too late.

 

[matthewwhatever]

Oh hell no. You only have to look at the Civil Rights movement in the US to see that this isn't true.
Just look at LGBT activists. You think they earned their rights by playing nice with the regressive religious right?

No, but they did do it by making the other side understand that they were fundamentally the same people, just with a different sexual orientation. But sure, go ahead and keep screaming at Muslims that their basic identities are incompatible with the West. Maybe one day it'll work!

What the...?! Okay, far be it from me to become gutter_trash's BFF or anything, and I find his blind worship of the Liberals to be really creepy and all, but when has he ever expressed bigotry? And how in the flying fuck is prioritizing gender equality over religion a sign of bigotry? If anything, I'd say it's quite frankly the opposite.

The only times over the last few years that he's expressed displeasure at the Liberals has been when they've spoken in favour of minority rights. During the Quebec Charter of Values debate. After Trudeau gave his speech on liberty and the politics of fear. During the niqab debate in the midst of his election. Every single time, he's complained that Trudeau and the Liberals are getting too sidetracked, as if defending multiculturalism and minority rights isn't a fundamental part of their identity. If gutter isn't a bigot, he's certainly more than comfortable tolerating bigotry.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

No, but they did do it by making the other side understand that they were fundamentally the same people, just with a different sexual orientation.

And how did they do that? By making sure the religious right wasn't offended? Please.

But sure, go ahead and keep screaming at Muslims that their basic identities are incompatible with the West. Maybe one day it'll work!

I said nothing about "screaming at Muslims". Abstaining from visiting a segregated mosque is not "screaming at Muslims" so please stop with this blatant intellectual dishonesty.

The only times over the last few years that he's expressed displeasure at the Liberals has been when they've spoken in favour of minority rights. During the Quebec Charter of Values debate. After Trudeau gave his speech on liberty and the politics of fear. During the niqab debate in the midst of his election. Every single time, he's complained that Trudeau and the Liberals are getting too sidetracked, as if defending multiculturalism and minority rights isn't a fundamental part of their identity. If gutter isn't a bigot, he's certainly more than comfortable tolerating bigotry.

I'm pretty sure he has been critical of the Québec Charter of Values, and in fact on this very page he's mentioned how he doesn't like Québec's nationalistic pandering. Once again, favouring secularism and criticizing religion is being conflated with bigotry, and that's really tiresome. Might as well say that all Israel bashing is rooted in antisemitism, because why not.