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Canadian PoliGAF - 42nd Parliament: Sunny Ways in Trudeaupia

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Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I disagree there. The association of "states' rights" with the protection of racism, etc. has a very specific root in American history: the fear of the South that a strong federal government would interfere with slavery and Jim Crow (as it ultimately did). There's no equivalent to that in Canadian history. The federal government has never had any jurisdiction over civil rights (explicitly assigned to the provincial governments), nor has it had a habit of enforcing the rights of minority groups against any particular provincial government (in most instances, e.g., anti-Asian sentiments in the early 20th century, the two were hand-in-hand).

The debate over provincial powers versus the federal government really originated with Sir Oliver Mowat's Ontario premiership in the 1870s and 1880s, and hadn't anything to do with racial questions.

The debate over state powers versus the federal government in the US began with the first continental congress and the articles of confederation (i.e. America 1.0, which rapidly failed) and continued into the current US constitution and the first 20 years of the current United States. Like, as a history lesson, America is quite literally a reboot of a failed country built single-mindedly around the issue of devolved power.

Ultimately the two major partisan groups in the first post-constitution American congresses were Pro-Administration and Anti-Administration. These groups became the Federalists (Hamilton) and the Democrat-Republicans (Jefferson and Madison). At this juncture virtually the only political issue in America was whether the federal government should have powers or not. The Democrat-Republicans gave birth to the Democratic and Whig parties later, and the Whigs later gave birth to the Republicans.

I think it's pretty naive to say that the federalism debate in America began with the nullification crisis, the Civil War, and reconstruction. American federalism was a core question from the very founding debates of the country, totally unrelated to racial issues. It also got co-opted later to become racialized when venue-shopping racists sought to entrench racial policies through state control when national winds on the issue changed.

Likewise, that Canada had a prior history of debating questions of federalism does not imply that those questions were not subsequently tied up in racial issues.
 

Sean C

Member
I think it's pretty naive to say that the federalism debate in America began with the nullification crisis, the Civil War, and reconstruction.
I didn't say that. Slavery and the relation of federal and state power go all the way back to the founding of the republic and the drafting of the constitution. For instance, Patrick Henry (he of "give me liberty, or give me death") opposed ratifying the Constitution to create a strong federal government because "they'll free your [racial slur]s". Many of the earliest interstate controversies, e.g., around extradition, were also about slavery. Consistently throughout American history, the most anti-federal power region of the country is the South, and that's all about the country's black population.

There has never been any equivalent to that in Canada -- because, as I noted, the Canadian federal government has never acted as the protector of racial minorities. The two racial groups that were or are the subject of substantial political controversy in Canadian history are indigenous peoples, who are an exclusively federal subject (or were; as noted, that's trending away), and Asian Canadians, and in that case, the feds and the provinces (mainly British Columbia) were pretty much on the same page (i.e., we should try to keep them out to the extent that that's possible) -- indeed, it was the feds who were responsible for the most egregious episodes, for the most part.

That's certainly not to say that racism isn't to be found among conservatives who advocate for provincial rights, but I don't think there's any basis to say it's rooted in it. The two major loci of decentralist impulse in the last century have been Alberta and Quebec. Albertan provincial rights issues are grounded mostly in their dislike of eastern elites, and that was the case back when the country was mostly white too. Quebec's interest has mostly been driven by linguistic and cultural nationalism in opposition to white Anglophones. The latter strain has certainly been coloured by race in recent history as more immigrants to Quebec are not white.
 

maharg

idspispopd
You may be taking the idea of "rooted" a bit farther than I intended it. I'm not trying to suggest that it has always been thus, I am speaking of the modern phenomenon as it exists largely in Alberta (and the rest of the prairies) and Quebec. You're right that it's an old debate with more than one cause, but I don't think those things are really all that relevant to the current debate.

So to expand out some assumptions I left out in my initial statement: I think there is a modern root to the modern devolution debate (such as it is) and it is in large part racially driven, and that failing to recognize that is part of a larger pattern of Canadians failing to recognize homegrown racism.

Also, you greatly oversimplify the Albertan 'official' perspective. For Alberta it is and has always been about resource rights. Albertan hatred of "eastern elites" is largely down to the federal government's management (or mismanagement in the Albertan frame) of natural resources in the province. That's why people spit when they say the name Trudeau here, not because of some ingrained hatred of 'elites'.
 

Sean C

Member
So to expand out some assumptions I left out in my initial statement: I think there is a modern root to the modern devolution debate (such as it is) and it is in large part racially driven, and that failing to recognize that is part of a larger pattern of Canadians failing to recognize homegrown racism.
I don't see it. The powers that the feds and the provinces are arguing over have not really involved racial issues. The major flashpoints of federal-provincial conflict in recent memory have been about the distribution of taxing power, the extent of federal involvement in healthcare, climate change/energy (in Alberta), and Quebec's lengthy nationalism debate. Energy involves indigenous interests, of course, but it's not mainly about that. Quebec nationalism increasingly looks like it's destined to be a one-off cause celebre for the generation that came of age during the Quiet Revolution, and while the debate has acquired racial controversies at times, it isn't about that, at the heart
 

Azih

Member
On the economic spectrum one thing Paul Martin/Liberals definitely did was yank the fiscal policy Overton window so far to the right that it took decades for 'deficits' to not be a unforgivable sin. Martin->Harper represent twenty solid years of Canada not investing in itself as the federal government abdicated its responsibilities.
 

Sean C

Member
It was important to get the debt under control in the 1990s. Once that had been accomplished the early 2000s were about what to do with the money coming in.
 
I'm a Montrealer and I support Energy East.

I'm for more green solutions but we will still be running on petrol. So if we can make more money off of it while transitionning..
Then I support Energy East
 

SRG01

Member
On the economic spectrum one thing Paul Martin/Liberals definitely did was yank the fiscal policy Overton window so far to the right that it took decades for 'deficits' to not be a unforgivable sin. Martin->Harper represent twenty solid years of Canada not investing in itself as the federal government abdicated its responsibilities.

It was important to get the debt under control in the 1990s. Once that had been accomplished the early 2000s were about what to do with the money coming in.

Exactly. I think many of us forget that the 1980s-1990s were periods of extreme economic stagnation for Canada, to the point where servicing the debt load was taking up increasing amounts of the federal budget. Both Mulroney and Chretien tied their legacies to free trade, which expanded the Canadian economy to the size it is today.

Deficits can be beneficial in some circumstances, but the gamble has always been to balance debt servicing and economic growth, especially if that economic growth doesn't occur as expected.
 

Azih

Member
It was important to get the debt under control in the 1990s. Once that had been accomplished the early 2000s were about what to do with the money coming in.
And what Martin did with his surpluses was pay down debt and cut taxes while provinces struggled with downloaded responsibilities or downloaded them further onto municipalities that had no choice but to jack up property taxes to try and cope.
 

Sean C

Member
And what Martin did with his surpluses was pay down debt and cut taxes while provinces struggled with downloaded responsibilities or downloaded them further onto municipalities that had no choice but to jack up property taxes to try and cope.
Martin did prioritize paying down the debt -- no bad thing, to my mind -- but his premiership also boosted transfers to the provinces significantly.
 

diaspora

Member
Martin did prioritize paying down the debt -- no bad thing, to my mind -- but his premiership also boosted transfers to the provinces significantly.
Didn't Martin's final platform include new services like childcare to take advantage of the surplus?
 
Patrick Brown is a complete joke. I still have no idea why the Ontario PCs voted for him to be the leader.

I just want a viable, competent alternative to the Ontario Liberals, is that too much to ask for? The Ontario Liberals are just so corrupt, but the other two alternatives are fucking idiots who will go instantly ideological and burn down the province if given the chance.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
And what Martin did with his surpluses was pay down debt and cut taxes while provinces struggled with downloaded responsibilities or downloaded them further onto municipalities that had no choice but to jack up property taxes to try and cope.

This issue has not gone away and begs to be addressed. Vancouver has about 0.6% rental vacancy at the moment. This is directly related to the Liberals getting out of funding rental housing in the 90s. Things get bad when zero rental housing gets built for 20 years.

The problem is now being exacerbated as developers are tearing down affordable purpose built rental built using those pre-90s housing incentives in order to build luxury condos, evicting low income persons as a result.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
And only two days pass and Patrick Brown is already backing away from his support of cutting Sex Ed in Ontario
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/com...ex-ed-letter-was-a-mistake-patrick-brown.html

The Ontario PCs are like pathologically unable to just shut the fuck up and win elections. It's crazy to watch them continually self-combust over the stupidest fucking issues. Religious schooling, and now sex ed? Give me a break. But the shit cherry on top of the baffling cake is when they lost by promising to fire a million people and then being surprised that those people wouldn't vote for them.

Ideally if Brown could unveil a platform in 2018 that consists of:
- Fire 2,000,000 people for double the economic growth
- Ban same sex marriage
- Defund secular education and switch to a voucher system
- Gut landlord-tenant boards and tenant protection
- Bring back the death penalty

That would be great.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
I thought maybe the Ontario PC's were smartening up and were going to find a way to finally win when Brown embraced the idea of a carbon tax. Apparently not...
 

Sean C

Member
Patrick Brown is a complete joke. I still have no idea why the Ontario PCs voted for him to be the leader.
On a perhaps shallow note -- but one that's politically important, in a media age -- I think Brown looks creepy as hell in a lot of photos.
 

Tapejara

Member
And only two days pass and Patrick Brown is already backing away from his support of cutting Sex Ed in Ontario
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/com...ex-ed-letter-was-a-mistake-patrick-brown.html

So, Patrick Brown:

- Tried to reopen the abortion debate, then said he wasn't going to go back to it when he became OPC leader
- Marched in Pride, but voted against legislation in favour of gender identity expression, and supported cutting a sex ed program that teaches acceptance of same sex couples
- and now he says he doesn't actually want to cut this program

It must suck to be a conservative voter and have your candidate ready to flip flop as long as he thinks it will get him votes.
 

gabbo

Member
CBC.ca: Patrick Brown says PCs may lose Scarborough byelection after flip flop on sex-ed

Patrick "My mom says I'm cool" Brown continues to baffle me. He's going to pull a Hudak come next election.

He hasn't written nearly enough white papers to shake at reporters or tried to evoke the "Common Sense Revolution" enough yet to reach Hudak levels of idiocy. I don't want him to win, but he's starting down the same path of not even trying to win at this point.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
By the way I'm certainly not going to push back against the notion that the Chretien/Martin Liberals and Mike Harris had the biggest and broadest impact in implementing neo liberal policies to this country. I think though that Harper was an incrementalist steward of these ideas and intrenched and extended their reach.

Coincidentally Stephen Gordon (clearly a Harper fan) just wrote a newspaper article about the discussion we've been just having, so here's his take:

Stephen Harper’s economic legacy

There are a couple of ways of thinking about former prime minister Stephen Harper’s economic legacy. One is how his government responded to events beyond its control. Another is how his government — and when it came to economics, it very much was his government — altered the landscape for subsequent governments.

More than anything else, the global surge in the prices of oil and other natural resources defined the economic environment of the Harper years. The resource boom was obviously not of Harper’s doing, but he at least had the good sense to recognize it as a positive development for the Canadian economy. This may not sound like much, but it’s an insight that escaped many keen minds, most notably in the New Democratic Party and the editorial board of the Toronto Star. And indeed, they were good years: Canadians saw significant, sustained and broad-based increases in wages and incomes, after these remained relatively stagnant throughout the 1980s and 990s.

The Harper government didn’t really have to do much for Canadians to benefit from the resource boom: international capital flows and a flexible exchange rate did most of the heavy lifting there. But its actions may have made things more difficult down the road: interfering in foreign takeovers of resource firms increased political uncertainty in the investment climate. The Conservatives’ ham-fisted approach to the pipelines file was almost certainly counter-productive: their actions made it harder, not easier, to get Alberta oil to global markets in the future.

Then there was the 2008-09 financial crisis — here the Conservatives’ record is solid. Canada had several advantages over other countries: its banking system was solid, and continued strong global demand for Canadian resource exports accelerated the recovery. Any Canadian government would have benefited from these advantages, but Harper’s government deserves credit for acting sensibly: working with the Bank of Canada to maintain liquidity in financial markets and initiating an explicitly temporary fiscal stimulus program, as part of a globally coordinated effort. Looking back, it’s hard to find anything the Harper government did wrong during the crisis. Unhappily for the world economy, not getting things wrong was a standard too few governments managed to meet.

Time in government isn’t always spent reacting to events, of course — governments also take initiatives. When it comes to the Conservatives’ legacy, the question isn’t so much whether they were good or bad, as the extent to which their initiatives will endure. Some of the Harper government’s initiatives can and have been reversed: the Liberals’ decision to make the long-form census mandatory is an obvious example. Work has already begun to do away with many of the boutique tax credits brought in by the Tories.


But the transition to the Liberal government isn’t as much as a clean break from the past as the party’s messaging would like us to believe. International trade liberalization was an important theme for the Harper Conservatives, and this cause has been taken up seamlessly by the Trudeau Liberals. Harper-era initiatives such as the Canada-European Union Comprehensive Economic Trade Agreement and the Trans-Pacific Partnership may or may not come to fruition, but if they don’t, the reason won’t be that these projects had been repudiated by the Liberals.

Then there are the signature elements of the Liberals’ winning platform: a middle-class tax cut (never mind that it almost exclusively helps those with above-median incomes) and the Canada Child Benefit (CCB), which refocuses child support transfers to lower-income households. Neither program would have been out of place in any of the Conservative election platforms over the last decade.

The CCB is a particularly striking example of the Liberals adopting Conservative positions. In 2006, the Conservatives argued that universal cash payments were superior to the Liberals’ proposal of a public day-care system that would primarily benefit higher-income households. The Liberals’ CCB program abandons their 2006 position and extends the Conservatives’ logic by arguing that targeted payments are even better than universal cash payments.

Harper came to power with the promise of a tax cut, and keeping taxes low was the dominant theme of his government. Before he took office, federal government revenues had been above 15 per cent of gross domestic product since before the Second World War. By the time he left, revenues had come in below 15 per cent for seven years in a row and were projected to stay at that level throughout the forecast horizon of his government’s last budget.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau also came to power with the promise of a tax cut, and his Liberals have shown no inclination of restoring the revenue-GDP ratio to pre-Harper levels: Finance Minister Bill Morneau’s revenue projections match Joe Oliver’s. The difference is on the spending side, but even here there are similarities to Harper’s stimulus program. In the latter years of the Liberal mandate, Morneau plans to hold the line on spending and let revenues catch up, which is also the scenario that Jim Flaherty outlined in 2010 (and then carried out).

Higher taxes have never been an easy sell, but anti-tax sentiment has deepened over that last decade. Instead of a particular program or treaty, Harper’s most enduring economic achievement may be a political culture in which parties compete to offer the most popular tax cuts in order to win. He may not be entirely displeased with such a legacy.
 
A month or two ago I was talking to my mom about the Ontario election, saying that Brown kind of worried me because he was doing such a good job of keeping his crazy relatively under wraps. Seeing how he's handling this issue is lessening that anxiety. He's pissing off everybody! My favourite quote from this story, from one of Canada's most prominent wannabe-theocrats, who had supported Brown in the leadership race):

"Patrick Brown campaigned to become leader on a pro-family platform, promising to protect children from the radical sex education curriculum of Kathleen Wynne. It is always sad to see a politician be deceitful, but it is especially troubling when he is so brazen the he will flip three times on the same issue. We have been used, deceived and betrayed."

I know it's not good when you only have one viable party in a multiparty system, but it's still hilarious to see how the Ontario PCs keep shooting themselves in the foot.

I agree with matthewwhatever that in Canada many of the most public-visible neoliberal reforms were either at the provincial level (especially the Harris government) or in the Chretien-Martin era, but I do think Mulroney was absolutely an adherent to Austrian economics more broadly and he set the stage for a lot of the reforms that Chretien and Martin eventually enacted. I would tell the story as being Mulroney->Campbell->Chretien/Martin rather than just starting with Chretien/Martin.

But I also would definitely separate some of the culture war baggage in the US and the UK from the broader neoliberal revolution. Speaks to the fact that even in closely related comparative politics cases there are still structural and cultural differences between countries and how they react to things.

1) I find it kind of hilarious that Campbell gets her own little slot in that move to the right, as if those two months represented anything more than a forgettable and forgotten blip.

2) I don't think you can separate out the cultural aspect of neoliberalism. It's a fundamental part of it. Taken in isolation, the economic aspects of neoliberalism aren't hugely popular, which is why the GOP tied it so strongly to white cultural grievance. It makes it a lot easier to sell regressive policies when you have your voters convinced there's some "other" out to get them.

In fact, if we're talking about how much Harper deserves credit/blame for moving our discourse to the right, this may be the area where the argument is strongest. There wasn't a racial element to Mulroney's policies (I'd argue that Charlottetown was a pretty explicit rejection of the idea that any one ethnic group represented "Canadian-ness"). Chretien and Martin, for all their embracing of conservative economic ideals, didn't tie it into ethno-nationalism. It was Harper who did that, culminating in "Old Stock Canadians."

Even then, though, I'd say that his compatriots in the Reform Party in the '90s did much, much more to introduce anglo/white grievance than Harper did himself.

3) Now that I've done a little more reading on the subject, I'll admit that Mulroney introduced some of the more right-leaning ideas, even if he didn't implement them himself. His Nielsen Task Force provided the intellectual justification for the cuts to government services and programs made by the Chretien government, so on that front, I guess, he deserves some of the blame. At the same time, though, as I said, him being able to get free trade done couldn't have happened if it hadn't been for the groundwork laid by Trudeau and Pearson. In any case, I think it's clear that however much Harper may have wanted to transform Canada into a more conservative country, the bulk of the effort on that front happened well before he even became PM.

So to expand out some assumptions I left out in my initial statement: I think there is a modern root to the modern devolution debate (such as it is) and it is in large part racially driven, and that failing to recognize that is part of a larger pattern of Canadians failing to recognize homegrown racism.

I don't disagree that Canada has had some pretty shameful racial policies over the years, primarily aimed at our indigenous population, but I don't see how you connect that to devolution. Like Sean pointed out, our relationship with indigenous peoples has always been at the federal level, and it doesn't seem like provinces are all that eager to take that over. As I said, Quebec's separatist movement clearly has had some racial overtones over the years, but if you look at immigration -- which that province controls directly, as a result of the devolution of powers to the provinces, and where you'd expect racism to play out most overly -- it's hard to spot. Chantal Hebert noted a few years ago that Quebec's immigration was making the province more diverse from a racial perspective (if not a linguistic one), and the stats since then would suggest that not much has changed in that respect. Again, I'm not denying that racism exists in Canada, but I think it's a stretch to say that racism is behind any push for provincial devolution.
 

maharg

idspispopd
I don't disagree that Canada has had some pretty shameful racial policies over the years, primarily aimed at our indigenous population, but I don't see how you connect that to devolution. Like Sean pointed out, our relationship with indigenous peoples has always been at the federal level, and it doesn't seem like provinces are all that eager to take that over. As I said, Quebec's separatist movement clearly has had some racial overtones over the years, but if you look at immigration -- which that province controls directly, as a result of the devolution of powers to the provinces, and where you'd expect racism to play out most overly -- it's hard to spot. Chantal Hebert noted a few years ago that Quebec's immigration was making the province more diverse from a racial perspective (if not a linguistic one), and the stats since then would suggest that not much has changed in that respect. Again, I'm not denying that racism exists in Canada, but I think it's a stretch to say that racism is behind any push for provincial devolution.

You guys seem to be interpreting what I'm saying as "alberta and quebec want devolution to explicitly enshrine racist policies."

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Alberta and Quebec's soft-separatist tendencies have a significant (if largely cultural) impact on minorities that's being ignored here by pretending that it can be neatly firewalled off as a separate concern. The people who want these things appear to have unexamined issues with people who aren't white and you can't just ignore that.

Specifically, because it inexplicably keeps coming up and I really don't understand why: I'm aware indigenous affairs are a federal responsibility and I didn't say anything about Alberta wanting to take it over? Where did that even come from. Alberta can fuck over its indigenous population in many ways (and does) without specific legal devolution over that file. Particularly in terms of environmental policy, which is the area that Alberta *does* seek devolution.
 

Azih

Member
Martin did prioritize paying down the debt -- no bad thing, to my mind -- but his premiership also boosted transfers to the provinces significantly.

Martin downloaded far more than he transferred. There's a reason why transit and affordable housing went to shit under his tenure.


Didn't Martin's final platform include new services like childcare to take advantage of the surplus?

By far the best budget Martin passed was the one forced on him by Layton. Martin showed no inclination towards investment in social services in the many years he had massive surpluses and the Liberals had full majority control.
 

SRG01

Member
3) Now that I've done a little more reading on the subject, I'll admit that Mulroney introduced some of the more right-leaning ideas, even if he didn't implement them himself. His Nielsen Task Force provided the intellectual justification for the cuts to government services and programs made by the Chretien government, so on that front, I guess, he deserves some of the blame. At the same time, though, as I said, him being able to get free trade done couldn't have happened if it hadn't been for the groundwork laid by Trudeau and Pearson. In any case, I think it's clear that however much Harper may have wanted to transform Canada into a more conservative country, the bulk of the effort on that front happened well before he even became PM.

If I remember my parliamentary history correctly, Chretien/Martin's first budget was fairly left with deficit spending, but veered towards cuts on their second year when it wasn't working at all.

Martin downloaded far more than he transferred. There's a reason why transit and affordable housing went to shit under his tenure.

This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I'm fully on the side that provinces shouldn't be afraid to raise revenues in the form of business, income and sales taxes. Many things were downloaded to the provinces, yes, but that doesn't mean the provinces' hands were tied in terms of raising revenue. There is, of course, the political blowback that comes with any tax hike, but it's something that's required to maintain a provinces' financial health.
 

CazTGG

Member
One more thing: RE Harper.

In 2007 and 2012, the Charter of Rights & Freedoms, a piece entrenched included in the Constitution itself, one whose influence is seen with the many changes to Canadian law and human rights to this very day, saw its 25th and 30th anniversary respectively come to pass with next to no attempt by the Harper government to commemorate such a momentous occasion, let alone for such an important piece we often take for granted the rights with which it bestows us. In 2012, they saw that the 200th anniversary of the War of 1812 would be the milestone worth recognizing for that year, a war which, while British colonies that would become Canada via confederation participated in, was not fought by Canada as a nation, which apparently cost them around $28 million and consisted of a questionably romanticized remembrance of the war (as an example, they had one ad with Tecumseh nodding that portrays the war as a fight for Canada's independence when he in fact Aboriginals were fighting for Aboriginal sovereignty and not Canada, a dream that, historically speaking, is often said to have died with the aforementioned Shawnee leader). When asked about this lack of celebration on a trip to Chile, Harper's response implied that Diefenbaker's Bill of Rights was more important , which, ignoring for a moment that there was no commemoration for that piece of legislation's respective 45th and 50th anniversary during those same years, Diefenbaker's Bill of Rights was not entrenched in the Constitution and did not have the same impact on people's everyday lives as the Charter would, including granting more and better rights for Aboriginals (R. v. Sparrow), people who are not Canadian citizens (Andrews v. Law Society of British Columbia), among other minorities (R. v. Morgentaler). That, more than anything, is indicative of the vision that Stephen Harper had and indeed did implement for Canada: A regressive transformation of the country's identity as a nation, to the point where it will outright twist history and ignore significant milestones to accomplish said goal.
 
Yup, I remember reading that exact article years ago too.

edit: The article does leave out details on Chretien's double-down on international trade though.

Yeah it leaves out a lot of things tbh, including infrastructure investments made in the early 90s after inflation was finally reared in paying off later in the decade in GDP gains, and the role of relatively loose monetary which softened the blow of the deficit busting.
 

Sean C

Member
You guys seem to be interpreting what I'm saying as "alberta and quebec want devolution to explicitly enshrine racist policies."

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Alberta and Quebec's soft-separatist tendencies have a significant (if largely cultural) impact on minorities that's being ignored here by pretending that it can be neatly firewalled off as a separate concern. The people who want these things appear to have unexamined issues with people who aren't white and you can't just ignore that.
Arguing that devolution of powers might negatively impact some minority groups is not the same thing as saying that racism is at the root of or "driving" the devolution debate in Canada.

Particularly in the case of Quebec, since with, e.g., the Charter of Values, the provincial government already has all the power it needs to pass that into law if it wanted (though it would be subject to the courts' intervention unless they invoked s.33).
 

maharg

idspispopd
I am clearly not articulating myself well on this subject, because all of your replies feel like they're beating up a strawman to me. I'm not really sure how to fix that articulation right now, so I'm just going to leave it at that.
 
screw Province's rights.

I have a favorable opinion of the Federal Government

but I hava highly UNfoavorable negative opinion of my Provincial Government and an even more negative opinion of all other Provincial opposition parties in my Province

I am against giving Provinces "special powers"

Pierre Trudeau said it best:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLkJbcW33rE
 

SRG01

Member
screw Province's rights.

I have a favorable opinion of the Federal Government

but I hava highly UNfoavorable negative opinion of my Provincial Government and an even more negative opinion of all other Provincial opposition parties in my Province

I am against giving Provinces "special powers"

Pierre Trudeau said it best:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLkJbcW33rE

Squabbling over provincial rights and responsibilities is why we can't get a national securities regulator... :(
 

Tapejara

Member
You might remember that during last year's election, the Conservatives caught a lot of flak for a hotline dedicated to "barbaric cultural practices." The tip line was announced by Kellie Leitch, who is currently in the running for leadership of the Conservative party. In April she said the announcement was a mistake, and that she regrets having made it. Well now she's once again drawing criticism for sending out a campaign survey asking if we should screen immigrants for "anti-Canadian values."

Conservative leadership candidate Kellie Leitch wants to know what her supporters think about vetting would-be immigrants and refugees for anti-Canadian values.

The question comes in a survey on a number of issues which was emailed to people who signed up for news from her campaign. It sought opinions and gauged support for a variety of positions and issues, including electoral reform, corporate tax cuts and the legalization and regulation of marijuana for recreational use.

The Leitch survey does not define anti-Canadian values, or otherwise declare where the candidate stands on the issue.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/kellie-leitch-survey-question-1.3744948

The problem seems to be from the lack of definition of "anti-Canadian values." With the latest federal election having wrapped up, and the Conservative party still seeking leadership, this may ultimately amount to nothing. But vague statements like this can be dangerous if they draw support, and I hope this is not indicative of the Conservative policy going forward. I don't vote Conservative, but I would like to think our major political parties are behind this sort of thinking.
 

CazTGG

Member
You might remember that during last year's election, the Conservatives caught a lot of flak for a hotline dedicated to "barbaric cultural practices." The tip line was announced by Kellie Leitch, who is currently in the running for leadership of the Conservative party. In April she said the announcement was a mistake, and that she regrets having made it. Well now she's once again drawing criticism for sending out a campaign survey asking if we should screen immigrants for "anti-Canadian values."





http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/kellie-leitch-survey-question-1.3744948

The problem seems to be from the lack of definition of "anti-Canadian values." With the latest federal election having wrapped up, and the Conservative party still seeking leadership, this may ultimately amount to nothing. But vague statements like this can be dangerous if they draw support, and I hope this is not indicative of the Conservative policy going forward. I don't vote Conservative, but I would like to think our major political parties are behind this sort of thinking.

This isn't new given that Harper himself once said "the major threat is still Islamicism", trying to stoke up fear against Islam and its followers that has, at the very least, contributed to horrible incidents like this and the hostilities towards the ongoing refugee crisis.
 

Sean C

Member
Wow, the Ontario PCs managed to win a by-election even after bringing up sex ed and then flip-flopping on it. What next, the BC NDP stops sucking?
 

Mr.Mike

Member
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/09/01/depression-anxiety-canadian-economy_n_11825770.html

I'm sure anyone who's dealt with mental health issues can attest that they reduce productivity. Across everyone in Canada this loss of productivity would sum up to be a pretty large number (almost $50 billion a year from just depression and anxiety, according to this study). Improving mental health care would lead not just to social benefits, but economic benefits as well. Personally, it took me 6 months to get an appointment with a psychiatrist about ADHD, another mental health issue having a large impact on productivity.
 

Tapejara

Member
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/09/01/depression-anxiety-canadian-economy_n_11825770.html

I'm sure anyone who's dealt with mental health issues can attest that they reduce productivity. Across everyone in Canada this loss of productivity would sum up to be a pretty large number (almost $50 billion a year from just depression and anxiety, according to this study). Improving mental health care would lead not just to social benefits, but economic benefits as well. Personally, it took me 6 months to get an appointment with a psychiatrist about ADHD, another mental health issue having a large impact on productivity.

Yeah, I had to drop out of university back in 2012 because of mental health problems. Have been suffering with serious issues for the last few years and haven't been able to return to school or get a job, though I do see a psychiatrist and psychologist regularly. I feel like I hear about mental illness more and more among people I know, and it'd be good if we could see improvements to the system to reduce the barrier to see a psychiatrist.
 
You might remember that during last year's election, the Conservatives caught a lot of flak for a hotline dedicated to "barbaric cultural practices." The tip line was announced by Kellie Leitch, who is currently in the running for leadership of the Conservative party. In April she said the announcement was a mistake, and that she regrets having made it. Well now she's once again drawing criticism for sending out a campaign survey asking if we should screen immigrants for "anti-Canadian values."

The problem seems to be from the lack of definition of "anti-Canadian values." With the latest federal election having wrapped up, and the Conservative party still seeking leadership, this may ultimately amount to nothing. But vague statements like this can be dangerous if they draw support, and I hope this is not indicative of the Conservative policy going forward. I don't vote Conservative, but I would like to think our major political parties are behind this sort of thinking.

No, the problem isn't that she hasn't "defined" anti-Canadian values. The problem is that it's an appalling suggestion in the first place. It was thinly-veiled racism when she and her party were promoting it in power and on the campaign trail, and it's thinly-veiled racism today. Trying to pretend that the CPC doesn't have more in common with the GOP than they'd like to admit just enables them to continue with their dog whistles.

They flip-flopped in English media; not so sure they bothered to correct themselves in the other languages they translated to.

Yep. I also saw someone point out that the letter went out in time to take advantage of advance voting, and his flip-flop came after those polls had closed.

I saw some commentary somewhere (can't remember where, unfortunately) that even though the PC Party won the by-election, it may have done them more harm than good in the long run -- they gained a seat, but it also showed how shaky Brown's standing is in his own party, and opened him up to charges that he's a flip-flopper with a hidden agenda. It's a long way to the next election, and I doubt most people even noticed the whole thing happened, but it'll be interesting to see how the two parties handle themselves going forward.
 

Tapejara

Member
No, the problem isn't that she hasn't "defined" anti-Canadian values. The problem is that it's an appalling suggestion in the first place. It was thinly-veiled racism when she and her party were promoting it in power and on the campaign trail, and it's thinly-veiled racism today. Trying to pretend that the CPC doesn't have more in common with the GOP than they'd like to admit just enables them to continue with their dog whistles.

You're completely right, and it was a poor choice of words on my part. Racist dogwhistling for sure, I just wanted to focus on why the vagueness of the "anti-Canadian values" was problematic in my post; didn't mean to suggest that screening immigrants like this wouldn't have been disgusting or an attempt at othering a group of people.
 

Tabris

Member
screw Province's rights.

I have a favorable opinion of the Federal Government

but I hava highly UNfoavorable negative opinion of my Provincial Government and an even more negative opinion of all other Provincial opposition parties in my Province

I am against giving Provinces "special powers"

Pierre Trudeau said it best:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLkJbcW33rE

I agree with gutter_trash (shocking). Even more surprising having been from BC which used to get screwed over in Federal politics (including from Pierre Trudeau). But Vancouver is gateway to Asia and too important for federal government to ignore like it did in Pierre's time. National strategies is where it's at. We need to unify the provincial parties to the federal party and let federal party dictate more.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Provinces didn't get screwed over in PET's time because they weren't important (NEP came about precisely because prairie resource extraction was important). They got screwed over because they had no meaningful representation in government.

Which is why I consider our electoral system a fundamental problem that needs to be fixed before a lot of other people's wishlists can even be meaningfully attacked. :p
 
I agree with gutter_trash (shocking). Even more surprising having been from BC which used to get screwed over in Federal politics (including from Pierre Trudeau). But Vancouver is gateway to Asia and too important for federal government to ignore like it did in Pierre's time. National strategies is where it's at. We need to unify the provincial parties to the federal party and let federal party dictate more.

I would just eliminate Provinces all together but that is just me being dissatisfied with my inept Provincial government regardless of the Premier
 

diaspora

Member
Martin downloaded far more than he transferred. There's a reason why transit and affordable housing went to shit under his tenure.




By far the best budget Martin passed was the one forced on him by Layton. Martin showed no inclination towards investment in social services in the many years he had massive surpluses and the Liberals had full majority control.

So... it was forced on him by Layton only for Layton to fuck everything up right after.
 

Azih

Member
So... it was forced on him by Layton only for Layton to fuck everything up right after.
All Martin had to do was put out a public statement that said Universal Health care is important and should be protected. Why didn't he do that? It was an incredibly reasonable ask by Layton.
 

diaspora

Member
All Martin had to do was put out a public statement that said Universal Health care is important and should be protected. Why didn't he do that? It was an incredibly reasonable ask by Layton.

That's like asking why someone doesn't say they love the country when demanded of it by someone else, it's a fucking stupid ask- nobody is against single payer care in the country least of all because it'd be political suicide. The man was an opportunistic prick.
 

Azih

Member
That's like asking why someone doesn't say they love the country when demanded of it by someone else, it's a fucking stupid ask

It wasn't stupid at all at a time when the BC and Alberta governments seemed intent on bringing in two tier health care by the back door. Martin was a terrible PM and not publicly supporting universal health care was a dumb dumb hill to kill the Liberal government over. Layton was throwing Martin a lifeline. Martin preferring to drown instead was completely his own business.

If nobody is against single payer health care then just say so and move on. Seriously.
 
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