• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Canadian PoliGAF - 42nd Parliament: Sunny Ways in Trudeaupia

Status
Not open for further replies.
A Prof I had who is an expert on Canadian politics, especially the Trudeau years, made a quip thats really stuck with me. After the night of the long knives, Quebec hated the liberals with a passion, and how ironic is it that when they finally vote liberal again its under another trudeau!
 
A Prof I had who is an expert on Canadian politics, especially the Trudeau years, made a quip thats really stuck with me. After the night of the long knives, Quebec hated the liberals with a passion, and how ironic is it that when they finally vote liberal again its under another trudeau!
Nationalists have distorted the truth of what happened that night; Levesque was being stubborn and unreasonable; Trudeau gave him the None-Withstanding Clause and R-L was still unhappy. What more could you want? Levesque was being too much like Arafat, no compromises.

Anyway, Nationalists who still can't get over 1982 today in 2016 really need to get over it; we are not Trump-land here.
 

gabbo

Member
I completely agree that we need more centralization of policy in Canada, but at the same time provinces should still exist, just don't put them in charge of major policy.


In the case of healthcare, we should centralize the core portions of it while leaving the general specifics down to the individual provinces.

My ideal way, would be if you were to liken it to a division within a company. You have the Federal Head which has a key set of stuff only they handle, such as administrating the handing out of Health Cards, the billing , negotiations to get stuff for cheaper and the core set of requrements. Then from the provinces (divisions) perspectives, they are in charge of administering the actual program within the province and can choose to add onto the base coverage should they want to. Then slap a fancy label on it that says "Canada Health Insurance Plan" with a new logo and away you go.

Basically, its the same degree of seperation that exists with the Student Loan Program where you have the NSLSC being the main entity behind it all, and each province which has signed onto it acts as administration divisions to modify as they see fit. For provinces, there is a very key set of ideas in the program that they don't have to manage, while they still have the power to do some more off the wall ideas like Ontario's Free Tuition simply via the province paying more money into the program and saying "this is what the money is for"

That doesn't sound like a bad idea actually.
 

Sean C

Member
Committee to call for electoral reform referendum

If this does go to a referendum I do hope that it is modelled after the PEI one with a Ranked Ballot into the systems if we have more than one on the ballot...except binding.
If there's going to be multiple options, then I agree it should be ranked.

I've always favoured a referendum, so I think it's the right way to go. I don't think there should be a turnout threshold (but then, if it's held alongside the next federal election, that shouldn't be an issue anyway).
 
Committee to call for electoral reform referendum

If this does go to a referendum I do hope that it is modelled after the PEI one with a Ranked Ballot into the systems if we have more than one on the ballot. Just a simple 50%+1 with no turnout threshold

If there's going to be multiple options, then I agree it should be ranked.

I've always favoured a referendum, so I think it's the right way to go. I don't think there should be a turnout threshold (but then, if it's held alongside the next federal election, that shouldn't be an issue anyway).
I'm going to surprise you,

I am fine with this. Do it
 

Tapejara

Member
Kellie Leitch wants to dismantle the CBC

“Taxpayers should not have to subsidize the CBC to keep it afloat,” Leitch said in a media release on Thursday. “Just like in the private sector, if a company isn’t competitive and isn’t profitable, it shouldn’t be in business. Private media outlets like The Toronto Star, The Globe and Mail and Le Journal du Montreal are struggling, and we must level the playing field. The days of a bloated, taxpayer-subsidized CBC are numbered.”
 

Sean C

Member
"Privately-owned media outlets are struggling to be profitable while doing valuable journalistic work, therefore we should get rid of a public entity that does the same thing."

If anything, I think the current media environment shows why publicly-funded media is important, and will probably only become moreso as newspapers and even TV networks struggle. I think we need to start looking at beefing up the CBC's investigative journalism, particularly at the local level, the sort of thing that newspapers used to do.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Committee to call for electoral reform referendum

If this does go to a referendum I do hope that it is modelled after the PEI one with a Ranked Ballot into the systems if we have more than one on the ballot. Just a simple 50%+1 with no turnout threshold

From the article it sounds like what they're proposing is that the referendum be between two options: some kind of PR (presumably mixed-member) and the status quo.

Not that they have to do anything in particular the committee suggests, but I'm personally glad the committee seems to be outright rejecting AV (aka wrong).
 

Pedrito

Member
LOL, even Bernier said yesterday that he wouldn't sell it, just downsize it.

Also, her examples of newspapers hurting because of the CBC are weird. None of them are even close to shutting down unlike Post Media's, the ones that her supporters are actually likely to read.
 

Tapejara

Member
"Privately-owned media outlets are struggling to be profitable while doing valuable journalistic work, therefore we should get rid of a public entity that does the same thing."

If anything, I think the current media environment shows why publicly-funded media is important, and will probably only become moreso as newspapers and even TV networks struggle. I think we need to start looking at beefing up the CBC's investigative journalism, particularly at the local level, the sort of thing that newspapers used to do.

I was actually reading a Twitter thread the other night about how the CBC does a lot of work reporting on indigenous communities and those living in the territories, and how they're willing to send resources and reporters to those areas compared to other media outlets. Dismantling the CBC and putting all of the focus on private media would be pretty detrimental to reporting in those communities.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
Wait, does she specifically want to dismantle the CBC, or just sell most of its operations?

The CBC surely has some financial value, and just straight up dismantling it would be silly even if you were really against state funded media. Doesn't sound particularly fiscally responsible.
 

Tapejara

Member
Wait, does she specifically want to dismantle the CBC, or just sell most of its operations?

The CBC surely has some financial value, and just straight up dismantling it would be silly even if you were really against state funded media. Doesn't sound particularly fiscally responsible.

Sounds like she wants to retain the emergency services CBC runs in rural and remote areas, but it doesn't look like she gives much detail beyond that.

As if we needed more reason to loathe this dumbass. Go away Leitch

In the past two months Kellie Leitch has gone from who?.gif to my most loathed person in Canadian politics.
 

CazTGG

Member
Since Leitch is in the news again for saying something remarkably stupid, I thought i'd post this funny bit from September: Try Kellie Leitch’s Canadian Values Test for Immigrants!

Given the debacle of news coverage that occurred during the 2016 election, we need reliable news sources and reporters more than ever, the CBC especially given how it tends to cover subjects and stories many other networks don't, in large part because of the resources it has through its current means of funding. This woman is dangerous and needs to be nipped in the bud so she doesn't become the leader of the CPC.
 
Since Leitch is in the news again for saying something remarkably stupid, I thought i'd post this funny bit from September: Try Kellie Leitch’s Canadian Values Test for Immigrants!

Given the debacle of news coverage that occurred during the 2016 election, we need reliable news sources and reporters more than ever, the CBC especially given how it tends to cover subjects and stories many other networks don't, in large part because of the resources it has through its current means of funding. This woman is dangerous and needs to be nipped in the bud so she doesn't become the leader of the CPC.

I passed!
by lying
 
Since Leitch is in the news again for saying something remarkably stupid, I thought i'd post this funny bit from September: Try Kellie Leitch’s Canadian Values Test for Immigrants!

Given the debacle of news coverage that occurred during the 2016 election, we need reliable news sources and reporters more than ever, the CBC especially given how it tends to cover subjects and stories many other networks don't, in large part because of the resources it has through its current means of funding. This woman is dangerous and needs to be nipped in the bud so she doesn't become the leader of the CPC.

I am to be deported.

Vive le Québec libre
 

Vamphuntr

Member
It's always these hardcore Conservatives that have beef with the CBC.

It's become a stereotype at this point.

It's probably for a similar reason to what is currently going on in America. My guess is they feel public television doesn't serve their best interests. They hide behind the privatization angle but if the channel had a conservative or right wing bias they would surely love it.
 

CazTGG

Member
Okay, i'm sure we're all sick of hearing about Kellie Leitch by now but I was reading this piece on how to deal with her and i'm in disbelief that, after everything that's happened this year, anyone would suggest that ignoring Leitch and her views will somehow lead to her to win somewhere in the future (especially when she's already an MP who won in her riding twice in a row). She's here now and she shouldn't be allowed to normalize her views. Ignoring her only helps her platform. This piece reeks of the "progressives are the reason why Drumpf won" thinkpiece mindset which ignores what ideas were central to events like Drumpf and Brexit what we need to learn from these events.Being vocal and informing others about what her platform entails, voting against her during the CPC leadership, making sure said platform is never allowed to be normalized, will stop her moreso than not making a big deal out of her.
 

gabbo

Member
Okay, i'm sure we're all sick of hearing about Kellie Leitch by now but I was reading this piece on how to deal with her and i'm in disbelief that, after everything that's happened this year, anyone would suggest that ignoring Leitch and her views will somehow lead to her to win somewhere in the future (especially when she's already an MP who won in her riding twice in a row). She's here now and she shouldn't be allowed to normalize her views. Ignoring her only helps her platform. This piece reeks of the "progressives are the reason why Drumpf won" thinkpiece mindset which ignores what ideas were central to events like Drumpf and Brexit what we need to learn from these events.Being vocal and informing others about what her platform entails, voting against her during the CPC leadership, making sure said platform is never allowed to be normalized, will stop her moreso than not making a big deal out of her.

This is true. We can't sit back and hope we're all smart enough to realize she's lying and full of shit.


Of courser she does. The CBC are like teachers or nurses to a Conservative, the easiest scapegoat that people will gladly see bled dry, until they realize what theyve lost.
Fuck Leitch and her anti-Canadian bullshit. If anything, the CBC should be getting more funding. Hold our politicians accountable dammit!
 

gabbo

Member
Ok the flip-flopping needs to stop http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politi...nough-canadians-want-it-monsef-says-1.3177209

They are managing to botch this entire thing in the silliest way

God dammit Trudeau, don't back away from this one, not this one.
The government should be putting out information to Canadians about the different methods/forms this could be, not asking for the opinion of a populace that doesn't understand the details of how these systems work. Most people probably don't care what it's called, but they probably have an opinion on whether the current system is fair/is representative of their vote.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Looking more and more like the Liberals are going to break all their lofty promises and then next election the 3-4 million passionate new voters that turned up and got the Liberals elected will decide to stay home and the Conservatives will win.
 
Looking more and more like the Liberals are going to break all their lofty promises and then next election the 3-4 million passionate new voters that turned up and got the Liberals elected will decide to stay home and the Conservatives will win.

Let's be honest here, without Electoral Reform the Conservatives we're going to win anyways.

The next election is in 3 years. Conservative Leadership election is five months away in May next year. That gives them two and a half years to get their act together and their name out there. Combine this with a leftist vote that is no longer united against a common enemy and a Liberal Government which is breaking major promises and we're looking at a Conservative Prime Minister again.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Let's be honest here, without Electoral Reform the Conservatives we're going to win anyways.

The next election is in 3 years. Conservative Leadership election is 5 months away in May next year. That gives them 2 years to get their name and act together. Combine this with a leftist vote that is no longer united against a common enemy and a Trudeau which is breaking major promises and we're looking at a Conservative Prime Minister again.

Along these lines Trudeau is going to announce the government position on pipelines in BC next week and it is strongly expected that at least one will be approved. This is the sort of thing that is going to deeply cut into that new voter number that pushed the Liberals into a majority.

It was clear to me during the election that the Liberals were essentially ok with the Trans Mountain pipeline (I talked with the Lib candidate for Burnaby South and he was explicitly for it) but I know a shocking amount of persons that voted Liberal that believed the Liberals were against all pipelines. There are going to be a lot of disappointed people.
 

Sean C

Member
Let's be honest here, without Electoral Reform the Conservatives we're going to win anyways.

The next election is in 3 years. Conservative Leadership election is five months away in May next year. That gives them two and a half years to get their act together and their name out there. Combine this with a leftist vote that is no longer united against a common enemy and a Liberal Government which is breaking major promises and we're looking at a Conservative Prime Minister again.
It's certainly possible the Conservatives could win the next election. Who knows what will happen in the next three years? But the idea that it's somehow inevitable without electoral reform is absurd (electoral reform wasn't even a major issue in the last election, for that matter, so the idea that not pushing through electoral reform without a referendum will cost them a lot of support is extremely suspect). The Conservatives don't require special circumstances to lose. The next election will be determined by the normal factors -- what's the economy like, do people like the PM, is corruption an issue, and so on.
 

Firestorm

Member
It's certainly possible the Conservatives could win the next election. Who knows what will happen in the next three years? But the idea that it's somehow inevitable without electoral reform is absurd (electoral reform wasn't even a major issue in the last election, for that matter, so the idea that not pushing through electoral reform without a referendum will cost them a lot of support is extremely suspect). The Conservatives don't require special circumstances to lose. The next election will be determined by the normal factors -- what's the economy like, do people like the PM, is corruption an issue, and so on.
And a split vote in a First Past the Post system. The normal factor that elected a Conservative majority the last election. It's not so much loss of trust that's the issue so much as that the current system heavily favours the Conservative Party as long as there are two left-wing parties and only one right wing party. That's literally the reason the Conservative Party exists as it is today.

Hell, Stephen Harper became Prime Minister with a majority government for the first time in an election that was called because he was found in contempt of government.
 

Sean C

Member
And a split vote in a First Past the Post system. The normal factor that elected a Conservative majority the last election. It's not so much loss of trust that's the issue so much as that the current system heavily favours the Conservative Party as long as there are two left-wing parties and only one right wing party. That's literally the reason the Conservative Party exists as it is today.

Hell, Stephen Harper became Prime Minister with a majority government for the first time in an election that was called because he was found in contempt of government.
FPTP certainly increases the odds of the party's current iteration. But it doesn't heavily favour them.

Harper's 2011 majority was the product of historically anomalous circumstances where the Liberal Party collapsed to unprecedented lows on its fourth straight struggling campaign (even if they won in 2004) with an unpopular leader, at the same time as the NDP, under an historically popular leader, became unusually strong.

Again, we can't know where the parties will be in 2019. But the NDP would have to recover considerably from where it is now and the Liberals suffer a major, major collapse to return to the parties being roughly even, let alone where they were at the end of 2011.
 

Dr.Acula

Banned
Electoral reform is so down on my list of things the Libs need to do. People are saying without electoral reform the Tories are going to take over -not because the Tories will take advantage of the FPTP system- but because Liberal supporters are stubborn? The Liberals had 3 straight majorities and a minority, followed by two conservative minorities and one disastrous majority that led directly to a Liberal majority. FPTP has benefitted the Libs greatly.
 

Sean C

Member
FPTP has benefitted the Libs greatly.
Indeed, that's probably a big reason why they've gotten less fond of the notion of aggressively pushing reform through without a referendum.

Though I personally think a referendum should be required in an instance like this. Even with all the undeniable downsides (e.g., less than ideal civic understanding), the shape of the electoral system itself is one thing I do believe should not be decided solely by politicians.
 
How long would it take for Elections Canada to spin up a referendum? Cause I'd bet good money that would set things back way later than the 2019 election.

And unless the NDP can pull a charismatic, extremely popular leader out of nowhere in the next year, we don't really need to worry about vote splitting.
 

Sean C

Member
How long would it take for Elections Canada to spin up a referendum?
There's nothing special to it. The most likely format for a referendum would be running it alongside the 2019 federal election, so just add a second ballot. It's more work, but it's not that complicated.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
So we have a PM double down on his love for a, to put it kindly, horrible monster to his people and now electoral reform is dead. What a weekend.
 

Dr.Acula

Banned
So we have a PM double down on his love for a, to put it kindly, horrible monster to his people and now electoral reform is dead. What a weekend.

I loved all the Republicans going nuts on twitter, then immediately going back to their love-in with Putin and Assad.
 

SRG01

Member
FPTP certainly increases the odds of the party's current iteration. But it doesn't heavily favour them.

Harper's 2011 majority was the product of historically anomalous circumstances where the Liberal Party collapsed to unprecedented lows on its fourth straight struggling campaign (even if they won in 2004) with an unpopular leader, at the same time as the NDP, under an historically popular leader, became unusually strong.

Again, we can't know where the parties will be in 2019. But the NDP would have to recover considerably from where it is now and the Liberals suffer a major, major collapse to return to the parties being roughly even, let alone where they were at the end of 2011.

The by-elections have clearly indicated a complete collapse of NDP support. They were neck in neck with the rhinoceros party in one.

edit: Insofar as the referendum goes, it's probably prudent to hold a referendum when people are actually interested, lest a situation like PEI's electoral reform comes around.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I loved all the Republicans going nuts on twitter, then immediately going back to their love-in with Putin and Assad.
Heh, there's something to be said for Dictatorships that it supports both socialist and facists governments.

edit: Insofar as the referendum goes, it's probably prudent to hold a referendum when people are actually interested, lest a situation like PEI's electoral reform comes around.
There's no reason to have a referendum since it will fail. Might as well ask if we should dissolve the Senate or give up the Queen as well.
 

SRG01

Member
There's no reason to have a referendum since it will fail. Might as well ask if we should dissolve the Senate or give up the Queen as well.

That's not really what I'm saying.

The Liberals have an uphill battle and are facing a largely disinterested populace. Voters are notoriously bad for voting when things are going reasonably well -- and that's not even counting the turnout when things aren't going well such as Brexit/Trump. No party, left or right, will waste political capital on something that has a fair-to-good chance of failing.

The best way to get good turnout for a referendum is to make it similar to ballot initiatives in various US states, but at the same time as a federal election. That, of course, opens a whole other can of worms.
 
Hmmm, if only there was a time, a moment when Canadians showed that they wanted electoral reform... if they indicated that they wanted it somehow, if they... I don't know, voted for it in some way...

Alas.
 

Sean C

Member
There's no reason to have a referendum since it will fail.
Referenda on this subject have gotten to 50%+1 before.

Though this raises the other question, if a majority of the electorate don't want the voting system to change, then why should it?

Hmmm, if only there was a time, a moment when Canadians showed that they wanted electoral reform... if they indicated that they wanted it somehow, if they... I don't know, voted for it in some way...

Alas.
How much a voter's action is based on a party's platform is decidedly variable. But if you view it that way, then a referendum shouldn't have a problem passing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom