PumpkinSpice
Banned
Kinder Morgan AB->BC pipeline approved.
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Canadian PoliGAF - 42nd Parliament: Sunny Ways in Trudeaupia
- Thread starter matthewwhatever
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Kinder Morgan AB->BC pipeline approved.
PyroPaperPlanes
Member
They've approved the project: The two major pipelines will be built.
hydragonwarrior
Member
Yikes. I guess it was unavoidable.
So Keystone is next or is that still off the table?
So Keystone is next or is that still off the table?
TemplaerDude
Member
Oooo golly, thanks guys, interesting!
killer rin
Member
It would be utterly hilarious if Trudeau got more pipelines built than Harper managed to get done... if only so I could see the look on the faces of Conservatives.
Trump will approve it. At that point, it's up to if Trans-Canada still wants to build it
.. that said, knowing how they act, they'll pivot and say they were going to get built anyways
Trump will approve it. At that point, it's up to if Trans-Canada still wants to build it
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Northern Gateway isn't happening at least.
matthewwhatever
Member
Technically it's just one new pipeline being built, Trans Mountain, with 157 conditions attached.
Northern Gateway was rejected, and Line 3 is replacing an already-existing pipeline.
It would be hilarious if the Conservatives took the environmental approach and condemned the pipelines
We'll know the CPC has gone full GOP whenever they reach the point of automatically opposing anything the Liberals are in favour of.
I expected the Liberals would have to approve either Energy East or one of the Alberta-to-BC pipelines, and the latter was a way, way easier lift, politically. I can't imagine Energy East ever happens, particularly since it would have to go through Quebec. They're basically trying to balance increased climate change planning with new pipeline construction and split the difference, politically.
Kinder Morgan/Transmountain has always been the better pipeline. Northern Gateway is hilariously awful especially with the route that it takes.
gutter_trash
Banned
Northern Gateway was like Exxon Valdez begging to happen in those rocky waters northern part of BC. Glad to see this one nixed
Kinder Morgan/Transmountain augmentation is logical and a safer bet.
Line 3's is risky IMO due to the amount of lakes, rivers and wet lands in Minnesota
Kinder Morgan/Transmountain augmentation is logical and a safer bet.
Line 3's is risky IMO due to the amount of lakes, rivers and wet lands in Minnesota
killer rin
Member
If Quebec was being such a pain in that regard, why don't they just stop Energy East in Ontario? The entire St. Lawrence Seaway connects into the Great Lakes after all, and they still have to actually ship the oil through boat once it hits the ocean anyways.
gutter_trash
Banned
Ambose and Deltell have such a hard-on for Northern Gateway.
Mulcair is unhappy about Kinder-Morgan going forth.
LOL, opposition. Never happy
Mulcair is unhappy about Kinder-Morgan going forth.
LOL, opposition. Never happy
I don't think tankers can go further than Sorel near Montréal.
hydragonwarrior
Member
Just curious if there were any viable alternatives that existed instead of Kinder...
killer rin
Member
So Oil tankers can't go over the St. Lawrence seaway? Thats a pain
I believe the only pipeline terminal on the West coast is Vancouver, so no there aren't any other viable alternatives.
Moreover, the Kinder Morgan plan is an upgrade of an existing pipeline...
This outcome was clearly going to happen. Trudeau is on the record from well before the election as being for Kinder Morgan and against Northern Gateway. Politically this is the obvious right move, but from an environmental point of view this expansion of the oil sands infrastructure will support the continued acceleration of climate change and put us further back from where we need to be.
The government has created this false equivalence between the proposed carbon tax and pipeline expansion. In reality the effect of the carbon tax where it stands is going to be negligible compared to the impacts of oil sands expansion. To be effective the carbon tax needs to be ramping up a hell of a lot faster than it is planned to. An equally likely outcome is that some future, less environmentalist, government will put a moratorium on carbon tax increases like the BC Liberals have.
The Federal government is saying that we can have our cake and eat it too, but we really can't. If the major polluting countries follow the example we're setting, the planet is fucked.
EDIT:
I am mostly ok with this policy because depressingly I think this is the best, pragmatic move we can make right now. There is really no appetite for taking on the more significant actions to prevent climate change. I'd be much happier if the carbon tax plan was more aggressive, but I'll take what I can get, and I'd imagine many other environmentalists will as well.
If Northern Gateway was approved I think it would be a different story. The levels of protest in BC would be significantly higher due to the additional safety concerns.
The government has created this false equivalence between the proposed carbon tax and pipeline expansion. In reality the effect of the carbon tax where it stands is going to be negligible compared to the impacts of oil sands expansion. To be effective the carbon tax needs to be ramping up a hell of a lot faster than it is planned to. An equally likely outcome is that some future, less environmentalist, government will put a moratorium on carbon tax increases like the BC Liberals have.
The Federal government is saying that we can have our cake and eat it too, but we really can't. If the major polluting countries follow the example we're setting, the planet is fucked.
EDIT:
I am mostly ok with this policy because depressingly I think this is the best, pragmatic move we can make right now. There is really no appetite for taking on the more significant actions to prevent climate change. I'd be much happier if the carbon tax plan was more aggressive, but I'll take what I can get, and I'd imagine many other environmentalists will as well.
If Northern Gateway was approved I think it would be a different story. The levels of protest in BC would be significantly higher due to the additional safety concerns.
Short Answer: I don't necessarily see the oil sands being expanded, especially with the current oil prices. All this does is bring our oil products to tide water, which means a second market for CWS. This means a better price for our product, especially if the Trump administration starts pushing Shale oil and domestic drilling again.
Long Answer: the price differential between CWS and WTI/Brent was excessively large during the tail end of the Redford years because of the Shale oil boom. More US domestic production means they have less incentive to buy and process expensive Canadian crude -- hence CWS being sold at a lower price. The oil crash actually improved the price differential because US domestic production took a dive as wells/fracking decreased in production.
If Trump's pro-domestic oil stance goes forward, then it means new drilling, new wells and perhaps subsidizing shale producers. Increased US production may cause oil to dip even more, but the worrying part is that the price differential may suddenly roar back -- crippling Alberta's economy.
Here's the thing: if the government would not have approved the pipeline, the demand would not have simply vanished. Someone else is going to supply that oil, essentially leaving the same carbon footprint. We can do our part in fighting climate change, but it doesn't mean that we need to needlessly cut off our energy industries as a result.
Yeah, Alberta needs to move on from oil ASAP. By the time the lowered prices from Trump's policies end we'll probably be well on our way to moving past fossil fuels as a source of energy. The "boom" will never happen again (oil will still be needed for non-energy reasons, but it won't be the "black gold" it is today).
I wish we could simply go all green but that will never fly, so I agree that this is (sadly) the best approach. At least coal is being cut and carbon trading is entering into force.
Also, as an immigrant who spent 5 years in Canada and is sadly leaving soon, just wanted to say thanks for voting in Trudeau - it was a rather magical night to see the country sweep red, and feel the positivity that came out of that; a small positive before a year of negatives.
I think you're probably right, which is depressing to me, since it means that the argument for going along with pipeline expansion is essentially: If someone is going to make a buck while destroying the planet, it might as well be us.
This issue at the core of it is a tragedy of the commons problem. Why stop pillaging the planet when the other guy is also pillaging the planet?
This is why the carbon tax is such an important part of the solution and why I hope we're able to keep scaling it. A carbon tax is able to incentivize consumers to use alternative low carbon products, which incentivizes the growth of low carbon industries.
Ayyo this 19 y/o MPP is getting torn apart on live tv right now by reporters
Dodging questions like a political veteran
"Will it be common practice for you to not take a stand?" *dodges*
"Do you think homosexuality is a sin?" *dodges*
"You're just like the other cowardly conservatives, thoughts?" *dodges*
"Are you going to answer our questions of just the questions in your own mind? *dodges*
Dodging questions like a political veteran
"Will it be common practice for you to not take a stand?" *dodges*
"Do you think homosexuality is a sin?" *dodges*
"You're just like the other cowardly conservatives, thoughts?" *dodges*
"Are you going to answer our questions of just the questions in your own mind? *dodges*
There doesn't seem to be anywhere near enough clarity on what Trump means for oil prices to justify this level of certainty. There's the stuff SRG talked about, but there's also a lot of foreign policy stuff that affects oil (like the Iran deal, I believe) where Trump's actions could cause a rise in oil prices. There was a brief sell-off when he was elected, but there was a sell-off of basically everything but gold that night.
OPEC's decisions regarding cutting production have been a much bigger factor in oil price volatility lately, afaik.
killer rin
Member
Oh, don't worry though. I'm sure the people of that riding elected him because he was the best person for the job and not because he was a Conservative running in a Conservative Riding.
If he was applying for any other job of this caliber in his community his resume wouldn't have even made it to the desk of the hiring manager... yet for some reason those people think he is; Intelligent enough to decide Educational Policy for their Children, despite it being likely not even his friends have begun having children yet. Health Care Policy for themselves, despite the fact that as a presumably healthy youth he isn't a user of it aside from the occasional checkup. Hydro Policy despite never having paid a Hydro Bill since he lives with his parents. You can go on and on.
The kid is such a joke. Did they seriously not have anybody better to run in that riding?
pr0cs
Member
What is your proposal for the thousands of people employed by that industry?
What will fill in the gaps for all the programs (social and otherwise) funded by that industry?
I know it's common thought around here that anyone associated with the oil industry is a fat cat in a top hat smoking cigars but in reality that really isn't the case.
To "move on" implies to replace it with another form of energy. Jobs will be created in those areas. Alberta needs to diversify in general, and of course there will be hard times accompanying that (including job loss and cutbacks in revenue) but we got ourselves into this mess by focusing so hard in the first place.
gutter_trash
Banned
like it or not, the Liberals chose a balanced approach. Yeah we got curb greenhouse gases, but also yeah the sad truth were dependent on commodities in the present tense and we gotta make due with what kind until we can replace them with rekneweables.
I am just glad that the worst project got canned
I am just glad that the worst project got canned
I say every other provinces need to stop importing oil from other countries that give zero fuck about the environemental damage, carbon emmission and use our own resources first before they tell Alberta to move away from oil. Say whatever they want Alberta pay hundreds billions into equilivazation payment and didn't receive a dim. Where are those people when they are getting our money for the last 2 decades.
Judging by the amount of people in Alberta who moved from other provinces or commute from other provinces, I'd guess some of them are back home and many of them are in Alberta still. The "us vs them" and "pay us back now Canada!" isn't how confederation works. I've lived here for the better part of a decade. I owe my livelihood and success to Alberta's success. Now that the economy is poor I don't feel owed a debt. I left Manitoba because my future prospects there were poor. The family I have across the prairies and BC don't call me laughing at Alberta's misfortunes, they are sympathetic, as I was towards SK and MB when times were tough for them.
I can't stress enough how many people I've met on jobsites here who are from all over Canada. None of them seem to feel entitled. Maybe you need to be a born-and-raised Albertan to properly carry a chip on your shoulder.
I can't stress enough how many people I've met on jobsites here who are from all over Canada. None of them seem to feel entitled. Maybe you need to be a born-and-raised Albertan to properly carry a chip on your shoulder.
He beat all of the other PC candidates that were trying to run in that riding.
When we say that Alberta should move away from oil, it's not because we want it to, it's because it's a boom and bust industry and one that will die in the next few decades. It would have been like saying years ago that Quebec should move away from asbestos (even though it was a tiny part of the economy).
Keep oil if that's what you want. Just don't act surprised when the next recession hits. Moving away from oil doesn't mean getting rid of that sector. It just means decreasing its impact on the economy.
And I must say that moving away from oil is much easier said than done. But it will have to be done eventually.
The pipeline approvals were well received by all on here yesterday so I don't get the animosity.
Keep oil if that's what you want. Just don't act surprised when the next recession hits. Moving away from oil doesn't mean getting rid of that sector. It just means decreasing its impact on the economy.
And I must say that moving away from oil is much easier said than done. But it will have to be done eventually.
The pipeline approvals were well received by all on here yesterday so I don't get the animosity.
Alberta was one of the poorest provinces in Canada until the oil boom, so it has received its share of support from the rest of the country over the years.
Regardless, the point being made is that, even apart from environmental concerns, oil is a long-term declining industry as alternatives become more and more prominent in the next half-century. It makes sense to get out in front of that, if at all possible.
And the point on the other side is just as valid and important, even if I don't really agree with many of my Albertan confederates on a lot of things around this (including the equalization payment nonsense that gets thrown around).
It's not really all that useful to sit in Ontario and tell Alberta it needs to do something that will be deeply problematic for its economy unless you have some novel approach to cushioning that blow. You're talking about real people and real families when you blithely declare their jobs a thing of the past.
Meanwhile, when Trudeau didn't end the Saudi Arabian arms contract, there were many Ontarians in this thread making the exact same kind of remarks the other way, deciding that people's manufacturing jobs in Ontario are more important than the lives of the people affected by arming the Sauds. This comes from a very valid place of concern for people you see as your own, but in the end it's no less calculated a move than Alberta's. This is, for better or for worse, one of the areas where Trudeau is actually acting quite equally to the provinces.
Have some compassion. If you're talking about things that don't affect you in an inconsiderate way, maybe you deserve to be called out on it. (note: I am not specifically saying that you are being inconsiderate, but your post is the most obvious jumping off point for what I wanted to say about this entire conversation and I don't think calling people out individually is all that useful either)
And now, on the lighter side:
Kinder Morgan approval puts Trudeau ahead in Conservative leadership race
TemplaerDude
Member
Until there are real alternatives for the economy to keep people employed and fed in Alberta, I don't see any other option than for these pipelines to exist.
On that point, I agree.
Much as I remarked above that it would be in Alberta's best interests to diversify, there are rather obvious challenges with that. Most obviously, oil is good for Alberta's economy because, well, the oil is there, so it's easy to justify the industry's presence. It's the same problem that any locale whose economy based on a resource has when the resource dries up or loses value, e.g., the declining coal towns that are scattered throughout western countries. Alberta was mostly a poor agricultural province before oil came, and when oil goes (or else is replaced), it's far from automatic that anything else will pop up to take its place.
gutter_trash
Banned
whatever it is, I hope it's funny
Did he tease this through twitter? -.-
gutter_trash
Banned
Rachel Notley heading to B.C. to make the case for Trans Mountain pipeline
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rachel-notley-christy-clark-trans-mountain-1.3874352
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rachel-notley-christy-clark-trans-mountain-1.3874352
matthewwhatever
Member
As someone else noted, he actually won the nomination over someone much more established within the riding. He apparently has a massive family and goes to a big evangelical church, so he worked those connections as hard as he could to pack the nomination meeting for the upset. After that, the riding had already been PC for quite some time, so it was really just a matter of winning the nomination in the first place.
I have a feeling the Liberals weren't too crushed by the PCs winning that riding.
Weirdly, Kady O'Malley was suggesting that the announcement being so vague meant it was likely bad news. He's tweeting that it'll be a "game changer," and he's raised so much money that I can't imagine he'd be dropping out now, but...I have no idea what it might be. Some impressive endorsement?
I'm trying to think who that would be. Harper is presumably staying neutral, and none of the former Tory PMs have any real base credibility. Preston Manning?
killer rin
Member
I'm just saying. I know I am going to sound super fucking hypocritical considering how much I hated Harper using the "He is just not ready" line of attack on Trudeau, and considering I am generally an advocate for the Youth playing a bigger role in the society they will ultimately end up growing up and living in. But this kid is just not ready. He has zero experience other than maybe a part time job or at best a full time job which at maximum he held for a year or two, maybe also a paper route depending on if his parents could get him one. He doesn't have a diploma, let alone a degree since he was only a first year political science student... which while I know nothing about, if Political Science is like any other program you don't get into the actual useful stuff until later years. Then this is before we get into his policies which, while typical for a hard right conservative, are completely against the current Canadian norm.
Yeah, the Liberals were never going to win that riding in a million years, nor should they since Wynne needs to be taken down a step. But that's not the point I'm trying to make. It's just baffling that THIS is the best person, the best Conservative that that riding could find. It's insane.
I want the Progressive Conservatives to do well, I truly do because Wynne needs to go, and like it or not it's going to be them that replaces the Liberals. But I don't want them to have a bunch of nutjobs in their party when they ultimately do it, or even give the Liberals a nice talking piece during the next election when they inevitably go off script.
That said, enough of my rant.
gutter_trash
Banned
Brian Mulroney
cryptosporidium
Member
Whats Mulroney's take on the reformer branch of the CPC anyways? I recall him not being too fond of harper and as the last PC PM it would be interesting hearing his take
Hoping for a logo
He's been pretty ambivalent about the whole thing (unsurprisingly, seeing as the Reform Party was founded on a "Brian Mulroney sucks" platform), though he joined the CPC when it founded.
His endorsement would probably be actively counterproductive in winning Bernier votes with a lot of the CPC base, particularly in the West, so I doubt that's what Bernier is making a big deal of.
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