The irony is not lost. An NDP premier having to promote a pipeline. I feel like governments in canada are desperately trying to cultivate a social climate to stamp out any catalyst of populism.
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Canadian PoliGAF - 42nd Parliament: Sunny Ways in Trudeaupia
- Thread starter matthewwhatever
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The irony is not lost. An NDP premier having to promote a pipeline. I feel like governments in canada are desperately trying to cultivate a social climate to stamp out any catalyst of populism.
gutter_trash
Banned
in other words, the Prime Minister and the Premiere live in reality
Joe Clark, maybe? I know he's not a fan of Leitch, but that's about all I can find in regard to his thoughts on the current CPC candidates.
matthewwhatever
Member
Breaking news: Maxime Bernier's announcement is that he has the endorsement of that "giant" (his words) of Canadian conservatism...
Yep.
Yep.
That's it? I forgot he even existed...
Man, I would have actually liked it to be a logo.... This is.... what? Him?
Clark is the reddest Red Tory alive. He endorsed the Liberals in 2004, and I suspect he's been voting for them since. He'd be even worse an endorsement than Mulroney.
Fortunately, we now know the "game changer" is Tony Clement.
The Electoral Reform Committee's report has been brought in:
- Recommends that there should be some form of MMP system.
- Recommends that there should be a referendum on its adoption.
- They specifically cite that the system shouldn't score higher than a 5 on the Gallagher Index (the current system scores a 17).
- They say that whatever MMP model the government employs should not involve a closed list.
- They also, somewhat randomly, recommend that the government should amend the Elections Act to create financial incentives for political parties to run more female candidates.
- Recommends that there should be some form of MMP system.
- Recommends that there should be a referendum on its adoption.
- They specifically cite that the system shouldn't score higher than a 5 on the Gallagher Index (the current system scores a 17).
- They say that whatever MMP model the government employs should not involve a closed list.
- They also, somewhat randomly, recommend that the government should amend the Elections Act to create financial incentives for political parties to run more female candidates.
Great news
I wrote to my Liberal MP a while back asking about progress on this and he got back to me essentially saying they are waiting for this report before they do anything.
Closed list is gone, whew. Those recommendations look pretty good.
The Liberals meanwhile have released a minority report stating that the majority report recommendations are "too radical."
The Liberals are upset that the massive majority of experts the committee brought in for advice trashed the PM's favoured Ranked Ballots system so now they're going to kill the whole election reform idea, explicitly breaking a major election promise.
Real Change everybody!
The Liberals are upset that the massive majority of experts the committee brought in for advice trashed the PM's favoured Ranked Ballots system so now they're going to kill the whole election reform idea, explicitly breaking a major election promise.
Real Change everybody!
[KoRp]Jazzman
Member
That is the kind of endorsement you would think that you wouldn't make a huge announcement of. I am not sure how many people are going to think "Oh shit, Clement is backing him? I am totes on board with this now!!
Well, maybe to the extent that some people in the CPC consider Bernier a flake, the backing of a journeyman like Clement is significant. Or maybe Bernier is just trying to make it sound more impressive than it actually is.[KoRp]Jazzman;225769616 said:
Angus Reid polled people on electoral reform here, though the process of the poll is a lot more thorough than an actual campaign on the issue would probably be (e.g., having the respondents look at samples of different ballots).
Interesting that they didn't even ask about Trudeau's pet AV system.
7/10 have no faith in the government to enact meaningful change. Ouch.
Ugh the disinformation that's gonna be run to fight the referendum.
killer rin
Member
Great that they agree on a proportional system. That effectively means on the Federal level that Ranked Ballots (aside from STV) are dead. Annoyed that they came back with a referendum because your average citizen isn't going to take the time to educate themselves on the proposed systems. I can just imagine the misinformation campaign now. "The Liberals are trying to kill democracy. Vote FPTP now!"
Anyhow, if a referendum is what they agreed on, let's get the damn thing rolling.
Then I saw this that came out, and oh FFS. Now all we need is the opposition forcing them into a referendum and we are on a path to an exact repeat of what happened in Ontario where the government purposefully tries to tank it by either refusing to advertise the referendum... or campaigning against it despite the evidence and recommendations from the most knowledgeable on the topic.
All of these sound good (even if it is sad that we need a better reason than "they constitute half of the country's population and our party's should reflect this fact" to have more women MPs)...except the call for a referendum.
ShinRPGamer
Member
That's all well and good, but the question is if the Liberal Party actually follows through with electoral reform. Right now, It really looks like the Liberals are backtracking.
killer rin
Member
Going off of historical precedent, now that the governing party didn't get what they wanted, they back off on their promise and in the next election the opposition will use it as a sign of weakness to force a referendum for the next parliament.
Then, if the Governing Party Changes they will either ignore that call for a referendum to keep the status quo, or they will call the referendum with the intent of tanking it to make the issue go away because it would be little of their own political capital spent because it was the other parties baby. Meanwhile if the Governing Party stays the same, they who had been forced into promising a referendum, will call one and leave it out to die because "We never wanted to call one anyways"
If any of the referendums happen to pass, they toss out the response because It is not indicative of the population or because it didn't meet bullshit supermajority thresholds. Que 40 years later, and obviously too much time has passed since the original study, so we start up another citizens assembly or parliamentary committee; they give the same recommendations and the cycle continues
Evidence-based governance, everyone.
Referendums are stupid, but it's likely that's the accommodation that needed to be made in order to have a majority report in favour of electoral reform.
It was apparent before the election that the existence of this committee was to give the Liberals a backdoor to bail on their promise if things didn't go their way. Now we're seeing that backdoor used in action. Similarly we often see referenda used in the same way, where the government can interpret the results in whatever fashion they see fit and use them to excuse any action or inaction.
BTW read the full report here http://ottawacitizen.com/news/polit...tee-report-plus-liberal-and-ndpgreen-opinions
Prax
Member
I think everyone is hesitant about making this a real thing because of all the work it would take (and possible backlash/unintended consequences).
Since everyone theoretically knows "how to win" in the old system, but they would have to come up with some new strategy altogether to figure how to best work MMP to their advantage?
Since everyone theoretically knows "how to win" in the old system, but they would have to come up with some new strategy altogether to figure how to best work MMP to their advantage?
PumpkinSpice
Banned
I think you're jumping to conclusions. Maybe just wait for more details before we start rage mode?
I really don't believe the Liberals are intentionally sabotaging the process, but cynically I've put forward that allowing a referendum & then not campaigning hard for it would be a clever out from a political maneuvering standpoint should they decide they'd rather try their hand at FPTP for another generation. I hope that doesn't happen of course, but it's interesting to think about.
The NDP has always been a huge proponent of electoral reform, they don't want to leave the opportunity to chance on a referendum question. So they want the government to just straight up introduce the legislation.
They're not being outmanoeuvred. They know perfectly well that the general public has no appetite for either electoral reform and/or referendum. They have outright said so, and the polls agree with that sentiment.
Having said that, all parties are jockeying for political points here. This report was never going to give anything substantial or workable right from the beginning.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
I really like this idea from the NDP/Green supplementary report btw:
I've never really felt well represented by my local MP across several cities, especially since my local concerns are usually city-wide issues (transit...). This would be an interesting way of introducing more proportional representation while preserving local representation for larger rural ridings.
I've never really felt well represented by my local MP across several cities, especially since my local concerns are usually city-wide issues (transit...). This would be an interesting way of introducing more proportional representation while preserving local representation for larger rural ridings.
This was asked about in the poll linked to a bit up-page and people were really negative on it. I have to admit my knee-jerk reaction on the name was also negative, because it implies a divisiveness between urban and rural ridings, but I'd honestly be pretty ok with it overall.
If there's any real compromise position, this seems like it to me.
If they didn't want a referendum and wanted electoral reform they had that option. Neither the Greens nor NDP support a referendum. If the Liberals were genuine for their desire for electoral reform they could have worked to achieve a consensus with the NDP.
There's no conclusion jumping here. The Liberal report is right there in the link I cited. Their position is very clear with a summary at the end. They want more consultation which will go beyond 2019. This is essentially them wanting to either bury this thing forever, or have a do over on the whole process to try to get an outcome they want.
RUP is definitely manageable because it doesn't require any redrawing. The additional MPs are worrying though.
but the reform was part of the PLC's electoral platform and they won... isn't that also a poll to consider?
that reads pretty clear to me that this is (or was) important to them, apparently. What I mean is that t was front and center, not some backhand promise in an assembly
Monsef is currently getting roasted in the HoC right now because she just attempted to throw the commitee that her own government formed under the bus.
As I've mentioned multiple times, a voter voting for a party may be in favor of only a few policy points and not the entire platform. It's very dangerous to imply the opposite.
Well, I do agree that Monsef is terrible as a minister... Why wasn't a political veteran in charge of this ministry/portfolio?
You Are Viewtiful
Member
How small does this get? Scarborough's interests are different from Downtown Toronto's, yet they are both part of the same municipality.
Edit: ah, 3-5 ridings. I think the suburban/urban divide will still be missed out in medium sized cities.
You can say that about everything on their platform.
why have a platform then if you can just use that argument about anything? and I don't mean that in an offensive way
and also I just did a quick google job to find 2 articles from 6 and 4 months ago mentionning that 65% and 73% of canadians wanted a reform, why is today's poll so drastically different
AND ALSO, polls are a hard sell right now :lol
gutter_trash
Banned
I never voted for a party platform in my entire life
pr0cs
Member
AuthenticM
Member
Fantastic
Yes, we know. You vote for politicians you're in love with.
TemplaerDude
Member
Boy, I hope no one is that silly.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Math is difficult and scary guys. Best not to proceed.
Whose statement is this lmao
gutter_trash
Banned
Math is difficult and scary guys. Best not to proceed.
It seems that, just like in the US, Canada should use feelings instead of math and logic.
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