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[dark10x]

i believe the animation played a big role. characters that large wouldnt animate well on dc either. the power to retain 2d like fluid gameplay doesnt look like it was all their either. once again if this wasnt an issue the game wouldnt have gotten canned.

Another thing, BOE...

Do you REALLY think a company familiar with a certain platform would simply choose to start developing a game on that platform only to give up half way through because of "hardware limitations"?? Of course not! They KNEW what the hardware could do before they started and they were familiar with the limitations. Developers don't just blindly start working on a platform only to "give up" halfway through. That just doesn't happen. So, you're reasoning is way off base...

Not only that, you always push 60 fps right? Did you realize that 95%+ of the games that Capcom has released on PS2 run at 60 fps and this doesn't even begin to hold true for the other platforms? The only exceptions that come to mind are a DC port (RECV - which was 30 fps to begin with), two online games (Monster Hunter and RE-Outbreak), and a port of a GC RPG (the new Megaman RPG). Virtually everything else (of which there are a TON) runs at 60 fps on PS2. This is anything but the case on XBOX, where even games like CvS2 have framerate issues not found on DC or PS2 and PS2 ports (like Auto Modellista) have MAJOR MAJOR framerate issues and glitches. GC doesn't fare a whole lot better where there are plenty of games that SHOULD have been 60 fps (like PN03).

Capcom did not cancel the game because of PS2 hardware limitations and your belief that they did shows that you really have no idea what was going on...

While I agree with the sentiment, it should be noted that TriForce and Chihiro are actually quite a leap over PS2/System 246 (which are identical) thanks mainly to the massive RAM increases over GC/XBox. There's no doubt you can just do more with Chihiro than System 246.

Yeah, those arcade systems have more ram than the equivalent home systems...that's for sure. That's what Namco has done with the Tekken 5 board (which is basically a slightly upgraded 246).

 

[SiegfriedFM]

Capcom Fighting Allstars was basically unplayable, we aren't missing anything. Capcom Fighting Jam seems fun to play according to most testers, and that's what's important.

"sheesh. its like nintendo releasing a new mario for GC with snes mario world graphics and animation."
Or Nintendo releasing a new Zelda for GC with SNES Zelda 3 graphics and animation... oh, wait.

Some sprites in CFJ look horrible, Demitri most of all. Felicia and Jedah are still very well drawn sprites that (aside from resolution) haven't really been surpassed by any 2D fighter. SF3 sprites still look great, as do Warzard sprites. Alpha and CvS2 sprites generally look ok too (we don't get Sagat at least).

Redrawing sprites in high res isn't as easy as just "scanning the original drawings". The "original drawings" are pencil b/w sketches with very vague detail. The actual sprites are drawn on top of these, by hand, pixel by pixel. There are no shortcuts (save for copy/pasting parts of sprites that don't change between frames, usually heads and so). This means that redrawing the sprites for a single game means spending four times as much time (roughly) as the graphics originally took to draw.

Besides, KoF'03 sprites are from 1996 and forward. Samurai Shodown V sprites as well. Most of Guilty Gear Isuka's sprites were first drawn in 2000. It's not like Capcom are the only ones doing it.

 

[nitewulf]

i'm ready for some hi res sprites from capcom, ever since playing GGX, its hard to go back.

 

[jarrod]

Did you realize that 95%+ of the games that Capcom has released on PS2 run at 60 fps

You're telling me 95% of this runs at 60fps...

-4X4 Evolution 2
-Alone in the Dark: The New Nightmare
-Ashita no Joe 2: The Anime Super Remix
-auto modellista
-auto modellista US Tuned
-Bass Strike
-Blood: The Last Vampire
-Bombastic
-Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter
-Capcom Fighting Evolution
-Capcom vs. SNK 2: Mark of the Millennium 2001
-Chaos Legion
-Clock Tower 3
-Conflict Delta: Wangan Sensou 1991
-Crimson Tears
-Critical Bullet: 7th Target
-Devil May Cry
-Devil May Cry 2
-Devil May Cry 3
-Dino Stalker
-Disney Golf Classic
-Everblue
-Everblue 2
-GioGio's Bizarre Adventure
-Glass Rose
-Grand Theft Auto III
-Grand Theft Auto: Vice City
-Gregory Horror Show
-GunGriffon Blaze
-Jiraiya: The Magical Ninja ( NA)
-Kaijuu Daigekisen: War of the Monsters
-Kelly Slater's Pro Surfer 2003
-Killer7
-Kyojin no Hoshi: The Anime Super Remix
-Marvel vs. Capcom 2: New Age of Heroes
-Mat Hoffman's Pro BMX 2003
-Maximo: Ghosts to Glory
-Maximo vs. Army of Zin
-MegaMan Anniversary Collection
-MegaMan X: Command Mission
-MegaMan X7
-MegaMan X8
-Mobile Suit Gundam Z: AEUG vs. Titans
-Mobile Suit Gundam: Federation vs. Zeon DX
-Monster Hunter
-Okami
-Onimusha: Warlords
-Onimusha 2: Samurai's Destiny
-Onimusha 3: Demon Siege
-Onimusha Blade Warriors
-Pride FC Fighting Championship
-Pride GP Grand Prix 2003
-Resident Evil Code: Veronica X
-Resident Evil Outbreak
-Resident Evil Outbreak: File 2
-Resident Evil Survivor 2: Code Veronica
-Resident Evil: Dead Aim
-Robin Hood: Defender of the Crown
-RS2: Riding Spirits
-Shadow of Rome
-Silpheed: The Lost Planet
-Snowboard Heaven
-Spider-Man: The Movie
-Street Fighter Anniversary Collection
-Street Fighter EX 3
-The Getaway
-The Mark of the Kri
-Tim Burton's The Nightmare Before Christmas
-Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2003
-Totsugeki! Army Men
-Ultimate Fighting Championship: Tapout 2
-Under the Skin
-Viewtiful Joe
-Viewtiful Joe 2
-Way of the Samurai 2

and a port of a GC RPG (the new Megaman RPG).

Despite what some have said around here, it's pretty clear Command Mission is running off a modified Dragon Quarter/MMX7 engine... making it a port from PS2 to GameCube, not the other way around.

This is anything but the case on XBOX, where even games like CvS2 have framerate issues not found on DC or PS2 and PS2 ports (like Auto Modellista) have MAJOR MAJOR framerate issues and glitches.

You forgot to mention the excellent GC port of CVS2 I notice, which has not only a consistant frame rate but arguably the cleanest IQ outside the Naomi original. Also, auto modellista had heavy framerate problems on every platform, PS2 included (even the tweaked US Tuned rerelease).

Yeah, those arcade systems have more ram than the equivalent home systems...that's for sure. That's what Namco has done with the Tekken 5 board (which is basically a slightly upgraded 246).

System 258? Are we sure it's just upgraded RAM and not faster clocked chips (like System 12 was over System 11)?

 

[dark10x]

You're telling me 95% of this runs at 60fps...

Don't be an idiot, I was talking about games that Capcom themselves developed, despite the fact that I simply said "release". Go ahead, be a smartass and turn my words against me. I just clarified my statement there. I was ONLY talking about games developed by Capcom (though the Arika titles seem borderline to me...).

Grand Theft Auto 3, 4x4 Evolution, and Alone in the Dark 4?!? You'd have to be a crazy man to consider those "Capcom games". Publishing != creating. I don't care what your fact sheets might suggest, those (and many others) were developed by another company and published by Capcom. That was a very VERY desperate list, jarrod. You KNOW what I was talking about...

Shall I go through it? There are certainly some games that I have never heard of, I will admit that...

-4X4 Evolution 2 (not a Capcom game)(unknown)
-Alone in the Dark: The New Nightmare (not a Capcom game)(30 fps)
-Ashita no Joe 2: The Anime Super Remix (unknown)
-auto modellista (60 fps)
-auto modellista US Tuned (60 fps)
-Bass Strike (not a Capcom game)
-Blood: The Last Vampire (not a Capcom game)
-Bombastic (60 fps)
-Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter (60 fps)
-Capcom Fighting Evolution (60 fps)
-Capcom vs. SNK 2: Mark of the Millennium 2001 (60 fps)
-Chaos Legion (60 fps)
-Clock Tower (not a Capcom game)(30 fps)
-Conflict Delta: Wangan Sensou 1991 (unknown)
-Crimson Tears (60 fps)
-Critical Bullet: 7th Target (unknown)
-Devil May Cry (60 fps)
-Devil May Cry 2 (60 fps)
-Devil May Cry 3 (60 fps)
-Dino Stalker (60 fps)
-Disney Golf Classic (not a Capcom game)
-Everblue (60 fps)
-Everblue 2 (unknown)
-GioGio's Bizarre Adventure (60 fps)
-Glass Rose (unknown)
-Grand Theft Auto III (not a Capcom game)(30 fps)
-Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (not a Capcom game)(30 fps)
-Gregory Horror Show (unknown)
-GunGriffon Blaze (not a Capcom game)(60 fps)
-Jiraiya: The Magical Ninja ( NA) (unknown)
-Kaijuu Daigekisen: War of the Monsters (not a Capcom game)(60 fps)
-Kelly Slater's Pro Surfer 2003 (not a Capcom game)(60 fps)
-Killer7 (unknown)
-Kyojin no Hoshi: The Anime Super Remix (unknown)
-Marvel vs. Capcom 2: New Age of Heroes (60 fps)
-Mat Hoffman's Pro BMX 2003 (not a Capcom game)(60 fps)
-Maximo: Ghosts to Glory (60 fps)
-Maximo vs. Army of Zin (60 fps)
-MegaMan Anniversary Collection (60 fps)
-MegaMan X: Command Mission (30 fps)
-MegaMan X7 (60 fps)
-MegaMan X8 (60 fps)
-Mobile Suit Gundam Z: AEUG vs. Titans (60 fps)
-Mobile Suit Gundam: Federation vs. Zeon DX (60 fps)
-Monster Hunter (30 fps)
-Okami (unknown)
-Onimusha: Warlords (60 fps)
-Onimusha 2: Samurai's Destiny (60 fps)
-Onimusha 3: Demon Siege (60 fps)
-Onimusha Blade Warriors (60 fps)
-Pride FC Fighting Championship (not a Capcom game)(60 fps)
-Pride GP Grand Prix 2003 (not a Capcom game)(60 fps)
-Resident Evil Code: Veronica X (30 fps)
-Resident Evil Outbreak (30 fps)
-Resident Evil Outbreak: File 2 (30 fps)
-Resident Evil Survivor 2: Code Veronica (unknown)
-Resident Evil: Dead Aim (60 fps)
-Robin Hood: Defender of the Crown (not a Capcom game)(unknown)
-RS2: Riding Spirits (not a Capcom game)(60 fps)
-Shadow of Rome (unknown)
-Silpheed: The Lost Planet (not a Capcom game)(60 fps)
-Snowboard Heaven (unknown)
-Spider-Man: The Movie (not a Capcom game)(30 fps)
-Street Fighter Anniversary Collection (60 fps)
-Street Fighter EX 3 (60 fps)
-The Getaway (not a Capcom game)(30 fps)
-The Mark of the Kri (not a Capcom game)(60 fps)
-Tim Burton's The Nightmare Before Christmas (60 fps)
-Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2003 (not a Capcom game)(60 fps)
-Totsugeki! Army Men (not a Capcom game)(unknown)
-Ultimate Fighting Championship: Tapout 2 (not a Capcom game)(60 fps)
-Under the Skin (60 fps)
-Viewtiful Joe (60 fps)
-Viewtiful Joe 2 (60 fps)
-Way of the Samurai 2 (not a Capcom game)(60 fps)

So, taking out NON Capcom games (well, at least the ones I am sure about)...

-auto modellista (60 fps)
-auto modellista US Tuned (60 fps)
-Bombastic (60 fps)
-Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter (60 fps)
-Capcom Fighting Evolution (60 fps)
-Capcom vs. SNK 2: Mark of the Millennium 2001 (60 fps)
-Chaos Legion (60 fps)
-Crimson Tears (60 fps)
-Devil May Cry (60 fps)
-Devil May Cry 2 (60 fps)
-Devil May Cry 3 (60 fps)
-Dino Stalker (60 fps)
-Everblue (60 fps)
-Everblue 2 (unknown)
-GioGio's Bizarre Adventure (60 fps)
-Glass Rose (unknown)
-Gregory Horror Show (unknown)
-Jiraiya: The Magical Ninja ( NA) (unknown)(probably 60 fps)
-Killer7 (unknown)
-Marvel vs. Capcom 2: New Age of Heroes (60 fps)
-Maximo: Ghosts to Glory (60 fps)
-Maximo vs. Army of Zin (60 fps)
-MegaMan Anniversary Collection (60 fps)
-MegaMan X: Command Mission (30 fps)
-MegaMan X7 (60 fps)
-MegaMan X8 (60 fps)
-Mobile Suit Gundam Z: AEUG vs. Titans (60 fps)
-Mobile Suit Gundam: Federation vs. Zeon DX (60 fps)
-Monster Hunter (30 fps)
-Okami (unknown)
-Onimusha: Warlords (60 fps)
-Onimusha 2: Samurai's Destiny (60 fps)
-Onimusha 3: Demon Siege (60 fps)
-Onimusha Blade Warriors (60 fps)
-Resident Evil Code: Veronica X (30 fps)
-Resident Evil Outbreak (30 fps)
-Resident Evil Outbreak: File 2 (30 fps)
-Resident Evil Survivor 2: Code Veronica (unknown)
-Resident Evil: Dead Aim (60 fps)
-Shadow of Rome (unknown)
-Snowboard Heaven (60 fps)
-Street Fighter Anniversary Collection (60 fps)
-Street Fighter EX 3 (60 fps)
-Tim Burton's The Nightmare Before Christmas (60 fps)
-Under the Skin (60 fps)
-Viewtiful Joe (60 fps)
-Viewtiful Joe 2 (60 fps)

Like these games even apply here...

-Ashita no Joe 2: The Anime Super Remix - This is a video based game with mostly handdrawn sequences. Why the hell would you even include it? I'd imagine that all menu operations are 60 fps, though.

-Conflict Delta: Wangan Sensou 1991 (unknown) - There is virtually no information available anywhere on this. I don't know what it is and it was never a part of my original statement. Did Capcom make this? What kind of game is it?

-Critical Bullet: 7th Target (unknown)(video based game) - This is a Capcom game, but it is based on video clips and doesn't apply.

-Kyojin no Hoshi: The Anime Super Remix (unknown) - Another FMV title.

Out of the games developed by Capcom themselves (and you know the difference), there are 34 games which run at 60 fps. There are 5 games out of that list that run at 30 fps and, finally, there are 7 unknown titles (several of which will likely be 60 fps). So, I "was" wrong...based on those numbers, 87% of the games developed by Capcom run at 60 fps. I can't really factor in the unknowns right now (and they aren't even all completed games yet), however...but worst case scenario suggests that 73% of the games developed by Capcom for PS2 run at 60 fps while best case suggests that 89% of the games run at 60 fps. The truth will likely fall in between that (siding towards 60 fps). Oh, but I forgot those video based games. Generally, those types of games DO feature 60 fps menu systems while the videos are compressed at 30 fps (naturally) or lower (depending on the source, I suppose). These do not count, though they technically would support the 60 fps side of things due to the "realtime" elements being displayed at 60 fps.

Jarrod, you can sit there and argue till your blue in the face about whether or not those 3rd party titles which Capcom published (mostly in Japan) are actually Capcom games...but most of us are not foolish enough to associate 4x4 Evolution 2 with Capcom's development teams.

Why not post a list of EVERY Capcom developed game for the other systems so we can compare? How bout it, list guy?

Despite what some have said around here, it's pretty clear Command Mission is running off a modified Dragon Quarter/MMX7 engine... making it a port from PS2 to GameCube, not the other way around.

OH, so we both made assumptions? Can you really confirm that? I THINK NOT! "I" believe they focused on the GC version first, but I could be completely wrong...just as YOU could be completely wrong. WE DON'T KNOW! Does it really MATTER, though? It's one of the very few 30 fps games (and supports my other argument that games should be developed ONLY for one console).

You forgot to mention the excellent GC port of CVS2 I notice, which has not only a consistant frame rate but arguably the cleanest IQ outside the Naomi original. Also, auto modellista had heavy framerate problems on every platform, PS2 included (even the tweaked US Tuned rerelease).

Hey jarrod, did ya read? While I didn't actually mention the GC version, I certainly didn't suggest that it was a poor port. I was CLEARLY talking about the XBOX there and just happened to say "DC and PS2" rather than "DC, PS2, and GC". To tell you the truth, I can't even SPEAK about the GC version as I have yet to actually see it running.

System 258? Are we sure it's just upgraded RAM and not faster clocked chips (like System 12 was over System 11)?

I don't know, are we sure? Did ya notice that I didn't even imply that ram was the ONLY upgrade? I stated that ram was added while also noting that it is a slightly upgraded PS2. By suggesting that, I was pointing out that the hardware was UPGRADED. That does not limit the upgrades solely to ram.

 

[isamu]

Don't be an idiot.

Dark...That is quite a list you put together. I haven't played 90% of those games and I forgot about most of them. How did you come up with that list? Thaks for putting it up buddy

 

[ArcadeStickMonk]

a hell of a lot of things

Darkie, take a breath.

You're not in Mississippi and your PC isn't acting like a time bomb. Be nice to the people without cyborg eyes and a boner for 60.

You the king.

 

[Mejilan]

I'd just like to add that LoZ Four Swords Adventures didn't actually rely primarily on Zelda 3 sprites and animations (you're thinking of the early as heck version demoed almost two E3s ago, or something.) And even if it did have ~12 year old sprites, that'd still only be one game out of Nintendo. Capcom has had numerous opportunities to update the character sprites for some of their fighters, and it really goes beyond incredible that they've continously failed to do so yet. I've always been an advocate of gameplay > graphics, but c'mon.

 

[Sp3eD]

what is all this fighting about PS2 hardware being the problem? Those screens aren't even up to Soul Calibur 2 level in that form of development. SC2 looks and annimates just fine on 246 hardware.....

 

[BeOnEdge]

sc2 has different gameplay than the SF series.

 

[dark10x]

sc2 has different gameplay than the SF series.

Oh for christ sake!!

Of course it has different gameplay...but that has nothing to do with what you are talking about. It is NOT the hardware!!! Do you know WHY it is so hard to pull of Street Fighter in 3D? It isn't a hardware issue...it is a 3D issue. Street Fighter is not suited for 3D gameplay due to the way in which 3D is displayed.

 

[BeOnEdge]

mortal kombat works fine in 3d. the gameplay isnt as technical though but it still works fine. how do you explain that?

 

[Mejilan]

It could be argued that MK doesn't work fine in ANY dimension. ;p

 

[Socreges]

Yeah, the PS2 is definitely beginning to show its inferiority.

*dark10x jumps out window*

*cough*

 

[ArcadeStickMonk]

mortal kombat works fine in 3d. the gameplay isnt as technical though but it still works fine. how do you explain that?

MK's been leeching off the rest of the fighting genre all it's life.

2D MK's copied off of Street Fighter, and did a poor job of it.
3D MK copies off of Tekken and Soul Calibur, and does a job just under Bloody Roar

they are two completely different games, the 2D's didn't have stance switching or a combo sytem anything like MKDA.

And don't bring up MK4\Gold, those weren't even games. In fact, Dark10x, go over my house tommorow and get rid of my DC copy of MK Gold. Burn it or sumpthin'

 

[BeOnEdge]

mk gold plays pretty close to 2d MK. why not include it?

 

[ArcadeStickMonk]

mk gold plays pretty close to 2d MK. why not include it?

Granted, MK 4\Gold "plays" quite similar to the 2d MK's, the catch it that the 2d Mk's were all horrendous. "Yea! We made a modern game as shitty as our old ones!!"

They were terrible and completely without depth. There wasn't any special timing or frames that needed to be carefully preserved in the translation.

Do you see people still playing MK at EVO? Hell no. But SF2 is still there because there are actual mechanics that still work, mechanics that are present in interations of all the main SF games and mechanics that don't work well in 3D, or at least don't come easily.

MKDA isn't a 2D fighter wannabe anymore, it's now a 3D fighter wannabe.

 

[BeOnEdge]

Granted, MK 4\Gold "plays" quite similar to the 2d MK's, the catch it that the 2d Mk's were all horrendous. "Yea! We made a modern game as shitty as our old ones!!"

They were terrible and completely without depth. There wasn't any special timing or frames that needed to be carefully preserved in the translation.

Do you see people still playing MK at EVO? Hell no. But SF2 is still there because there are actual mechanics that still work, mechanics that are present in interations of all the main SF games and mechanics that don't work well in 3D, or at least don't come easily.

MKDA isn't a 2D fighter wannabe anymore, it's now a 3D fighter wannabe.

hello!!!! this is my whole point. MK works because its not as intense as SF yet its gameplay ports fine. You'd need more power to get SF to work in 3d. capcom thought sys 246 was enough but considering they canned the whole game which judging by the pics and movies was pretty much done, one can only think that they werent happy with how the gameplay worked. you cant say that animation isnt part of this because those diehard SF fans complain when single frames of animation are missing.

 

[Mejilan]

Am I the only one that remembers the SF Ex games? Yiiiiiiiiikes!

 

[evilromero]

Hey, whatever game that is, I'm buying it. And sprites? Adding to that, hell no I'm not going to click your link. What kind of world do we live in?

 

[dark10x]

mk gold plays pretty close to 2d MK. why not include it?

Mortal Komat is a slow paced, un-responsive game. It works fine in 3D for that very reason. I hope you aren't attempting to suggest that MK and Street Fighter can be compared from a speed standpoint. Hell, if you ARE suggesting that...you just nullified your original point as MK4 ran on very dated hardware (by today's standards). You blame PS2, yet older hardware has achieved exactly what you seem to be wanting.

Let me lay down the facts for you one more time. The game was not simply cancelled because they realized the hardware couldn't handle the game. Developers don't DO that...and if they did, they are absolute morons. You don't just run blindly onto a platform and start working on a game only to give up halfway through because the hardware wasn't good enough. This is Capcom, however, and you know damn well that they have had plenty of PS2 experience and would be able to judge whether or not the platform was capable of delivering what they needed.

i believe the game was canned because capcom couldnt get the game as close to 2d as possible with the ps2 hardware.

That is one of your original statements is COMPLETELY UTTERLY FALSE. You could replace "PS2" with any piece of hardware and you'd STILL BE WRONG. I repeat, developers do NOT nearly finish a game only to stop working on it because they felt the hardware was unable to cope. I feel as if I must repeat this 20 times in order for you to fully understand.

If you don't get it yet...well, I give up.

you cant say that animation isnt part of this because those diehard SF fans complain when single frames of animation are missing.

Did you ever consider how many frames of animation are used in those sprites? The problem with 3D is that too many frames are drawn. In 2D, they can draw a certain number of frames of animation in order to complete a move...and if that is only 10 frames, they can display it quickly. 3D doesn't display in the same manner. What do you want them to do? Start skipping frames? The 3D SF games are drawing TOO many frames, which is why they seem slower to you.

 

[jett]

Capcom Fighting Allstars was basically unplayable, we aren't missing anything. Capcom Fighting Jam seems fun to play according to most testers, and that's what's important.

"sheesh. its like nintendo releasing a new mario for GC with snes mario world graphics and animation."
Or Nintendo releasing a new Zelda for GC with SNES Zelda 3 graphics and animation... oh, wait.

Some sprites in CFJ look horrible, Demitri most of all. Felicia and Jedah are still very well drawn sprites that (aside from resolution) haven't really been surpassed by any 2D fighter. SF3 sprites still look great, as do Warzard sprites. Alpha and CvS2 sprites generally look ok too (we don't get Sagat at least).

Redrawing sprites in high res isn't as easy as just "scanning the original drawings". The "original drawings" are pencil b/w sketches with very vague detail. The actual sprites are drawn on top of these, by hand, pixel by pixel. There are no shortcuts (save for copy/pasting parts of sprites that don't change between frames, usually heads and so). This means that redrawing the sprites for a single game means spending four times as much time (roughly) as the graphics originally took to draw.

Besides, KoF'03 sprites are from 1996 and forward. Samurai Shodown V sprites as well. Most of Guilty Gear Isuka's sprites were first drawn in 2000. It's not like Capcom are the only ones doing it.

What he said.

 

[BeOnEdge]

the hardware was unable to give them what they had hoped for. they attempted it and it didnt work. i'm not saying the ps2 sucks because of it, i'm just saying the hardware wasnt powerful enough for what capcom envisioned.

 

[dark10x]

the hardware was unable to give them what they had hoped for. they attempted it and it didnt work. i'm not saying the ps2 sucks because of it, i'm just saying the hardware wasnt powerful enough for what capcom envisioned.

Would you explain yourself? WHAT was the hardware incapable of?

I'm starting to get an idea of what is confusing you, but I think you need to realize it...

 

[Mejilan]

Or, as is the more likely scenario, the game fucking sucked regardless of the hardware involved.

And evidencing the past attempts at 3D SF games, I'm more inclined to believe it was just that.

 

[ArcadeStickMonk]

Samurai Showdown was put into 3D on the Hyper64, it is regarded as not being a good game.

MK4 sucked in 3D, but it was going to anyway

They first put Street Fighter in 3D back on the PSX based hardware. It sucked and did not play like SF should.
SFEX2 sucked
SFEX3 sucked


Interestingly enough, Capcom did make Rival Schools and Project Justice on the PSX and DC respectively. Neither are very good games but are 2D fighters with 3D graphics. They play ok, but that's prolly because there is not a "golden" 2D standard to directly compare to.

2D fighters turned into 3D have been sucking since they were first attempted, if it's been the hardware everytime, that means we've been waiting for some super hardware for a long time.

It's not the hardware. Soul Calibur is more complex than any of the SFEX games and that is based on weaker hardware than EX3. You gotta have some ass hardware before it gets in the way of base gameplay concepts.

Turning the best 2D gameplay into a 3D powered game is simply a daunting task, from a design standpoint. There are tiny nuances, mostly with timing and balance gained from hitboxes, that you stand to lose or disrupt at every corner. Capcom has already fucked this idea up 3-5 times before, they didn't want another assured failure. It's much easier to start a 3D fighter from scratch, since you are not worried about preserving so many little things that create an established "feel."

This said, I think we agree that Fighting Jam is a poor idea too, but with CVS2's popularity and presence at many an Evo-esque gathering, it's easy to see why they think another fighter compilation will sell.

 

[jarrod]

Woah Dark, settle down. We're all friends here.

No I don't consider everything up there "Capcom games" but as you so kindly pointed out, that wasn't the terminology we were using. I do consdier all "Capcom releases".

Also, a few games you've misclassified as developed by Capcom or not...

-Bombastic (60 fps)
developed by SCEI/Shift.

-Clock Tower (not a Capcom game)(30 fps)
Developed by Capcom Studio 3 (under cooperation with SunSoft)

-Crimson Tears (60 fps)
Developed by Dream Factory.

-Disney Golf Classic (not a Capcom game)
Developed by Capcom Studio 3.

-Everblue (60 fps)
Developed by Arika.

-Everblue 2 (unknown)
Developed by Arika.

-MegaMan Anniversary Collection (60 fps)
Developed by Atomic Planet Entertainment.

-Snowboard Heaven (unknown)
Developed by Cave.

-Street Fighter EX 3 (60 fps)
Developed by Arika.

-Tim Burton's The Nightmare Before Christmas (60 fps)
Developed by Tose Software.


... and some of those 60 fps games (auto modellista most notably) were a far cry from a constant 60 fps... overall I'd say the percentage of stable 60 fps titles developed by Capcom on PS2 most likely isn't any higher than GC or XBox really.

With Command Mission, the only thing we know for sure is that both the GC & PS2 games were devloped in tandem simultaneously. It was shown first running on PS2 though back at TGS 2003 (the GC version was only announced at the show). Based on the team behind it, and their previous work, I'm inclined to think it most likely began on PS2.

I never suggested you consider CVS2 GC a bad port, I was just pointing out that it was excellent. In fact I said as much, since you're so quick to bring up carefull reading of what others write.

And yes, you actually implied System 258 was simply a RAM upgrade when you compared it directly to TriForce/Chihiro. You actually said they had more RAM and that's what Namco had done with 258... intentional or not, the implication is there.


As for those lists...

PlayStation 2
-Ashita no Joe 2: The Anime Super Remix (Studio 2)
-auto modellista (Studio 1)
-auto modellista US Tuned (Studio 1)
-Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter (Studio 3)
-Capcom Fighting Evolution (Studio 1)
-Capcom vs. SNK 2: Mark of the Millennium 2001 (Studio 1)
-Chaos Legion (Studio 6)
-Clock Tower 3 (Studio 3)
-Critical Bullet: 7th Target (Studio 4)
-Devil May Cry (Studio 4)
-Devil May Cry 2 (Studio 1)
-Devil May Cry 3 (Studio 1)
-Dino Stalker (Studio 3)
-Disney Golf Classic (Studio 3)
-Full House Kiss (Studio 4)
-GioGio's Bizarre Adventure (Studio 1)
-Glass Rose (Studio 3)
-Gregory Horror Show: Soul Collector (Studio 3)
-Jiraiya: The Magical Ninja (Studio 3)
-Killer7 (Studio 4)
-Kyojin no Hoshi: The Anime Super Remix (Studio 2)
-Marvel vs. Capcom 2: New Age of Heroes (Studio 3)
-Maximo: Ghosts to Glory (Studio 8)
-Maximo vs. Army of Zin (Studio 8)
-MegaMan X: Command Mission (Studio 3)
-MegaMan X7 (Studio 3)
-MegaMan X8 (Studio 3)
-Mobile Suit Gundam Z: AEUG vs. Titans (Studio 1)
-Mobile Suit Gundam: Federation vs. Zeon DX (Studio 1)
-Monster Hunter (Studio 1)
-Okami (Clover Studio)
-Onimusha: Warlords (Studio 2)
-Onimusha 2: Samurai's Destiny (Studio 2)
-Onimusha 3: Demon Siege (Studio 2)
-Onimusha Blade Warriors (Studio 2)
-Resident Evil Code: Veronica X (Studio 3)
-Resident Evil Outbreak (Studio 1)
-Resident Evil Outbreak: File 2 (Studio 1)
-Resident Evil Survivor 2: Code Veronica (Studio 3)
-Resident Evil: Dead Aim (Studio 3)
-Shadow of Rome (Studio 2)
-Street Fighter Anniversary Collection (Studio 2)
-Under the Skin (Studio 4)
-Viewtiful Joe (Clover Studio)
-Viewtiful Joe 2 (Clover Studio)

GameCube
-auto modellista (Studio 1)
-Capcom vs. SNK 2 EO (Studio 1)
-Disney's Hide and Sneak starring Mickey & Minnie (Studio 3)
-Disney's Magical Quest starring Mickey Mouse (Studio 3)
-Gotcha Force (Studio 1)
-Killer7 (Studio 4)
-Mega Man X Command Mission (Studio 3)
-Product Number 03 (Studio 4)
-Resident Evil (Studio 4)
-Resident Evil 0 (Studio 3)
-Resident Evil 2 (Studio 4)
-Resident Evil 3: Nemesis (Studio 4)
-Resident Evil 4 (Studio 4)
-Resident Evil Code: Veronica X (Studio 4)
-Viewtiful Joe (Studio 4)
-Viewtiful Joe 2 (Clover Studio)
-Viewtiful Joe Revival (Studio 4)

XBox
-auto modellista Auto Modellista (Studio 1)
-Capcom Fighting Evolution (Studio 1)
-Capcom vs. SNK 2 EO (Studio 1)
-Dino Crisis 3 (Studio 3)
-Genma Onimusha (Studio 2)
-Group S Challenge (Studio 3)
-Marvel vs. Capcom 2 (Studio 3)
-Pro Cast Sports Fishing (Studio 3)
-Steel Battalion (Studio 4)
-Steel Battalion: Line of Contact (Studio 4)
-Street Fighter Anniversary Collection (Studio 2)

 

[BeOnEdge]

ok. vf originally played on a 2d plane. it needed powerful hardware for it to work the way sega wanted it to. midway was able to do mk in 3d because their plan worked and it played how they wanted it to and they have been improving on it since GOLD. capcom has tried and tried with the ex series which sucks, waited for more powerful hardware to give it another try and they couldnt do it. why wouldnt be a hardware thing? if they power was there, shouldnt you be able to make the game work in 3d? take sonic the hedgehog. sega tried it on saturn and they canned it because it wasnt working. it wasnt until the next gen that we got sonic games that moved like their 2d counterparts.

 

[Mejilan]

Adapting a 2D franchise to 3D is rarely about JUST hardware firepower, BeOnEdge.

 

[dark10x]

... and some of those 60 fps games (auto modellista most notably) were a far cry from a constant 60 fps... overall I'd say the percentage of stable 60 fps titles developed by Capcom on PS2 most likely isn't any higher than GC or XBox really.

Auto Modellista certainly seemed very constant to me from what I've played (ONLY the PS2 version, though). The game has MAJOR problems on XBOX, though (we're talking almost single digit framerates at times). Which of those games have framerate problems? I don't think most of them do. Please feel free to point them out...you have a LOT of 60 fps games to choose from on PS2.

GameCube
-auto modellista (Studio 1) (60 fps)
-Capcom vs. SNK 2 EO (Studio 1) (60 fps)
-Disney's Hide and Sneak starring Mickey & Minnie (Studio 3) (unknown)
-Disney's Magical Quest starring Mickey Mouse (Studio 3) (30 fps)
-Gotcha Force (Studio 1) (60 fps)
-Killer7 (Studio 4) (unknown)
-Mega Man X Command Mission (Studio 3) (60 fps)
-Product Number 03 (Studio 4) (30 fps)
-Resident Evil (Studio 4) (30 fps)
-Resident Evil 0 (Studio 3) (30 fps)
-Resident Evil 2 (Studio 4) (30 fps)
-Resident Evil 3: Nemesis (Studio 4) (30 fps)
-Resident Evil 4 (Studio 4) (30 fps)
-Resident Evil Code: Veronica X (Studio 4) (30 fps)
-Viewtiful Joe (Studio 4) (60 fps)
-Viewtiful Joe 2 (Clover Studio) (60 fps)
-Viewtiful Joe Revival (Studio 4) (60 fps)

There are more 30 fps titles on GC than 60 fps titles.

XBOX is an odd one, as the games really have some strange framerate issues and can't necessarily be classified as "60 fps" or "30 fps". I will mark games with major problems as (not 60 fps).

XBox
-auto modellista Auto Modellista (Studio 1) (not 60 fps)
-Capcom Fighting Evolution (Studio 1) (60 fps)
-Capcom vs. SNK 2 EO (Studio 1) (not 60 fps)
-Dino Crisis 3 (Studio 3) (30 fps)
-Genma Onimusha (Studio 2) (60 fps)
-Group S Challenge (Studio 3) (60 fps)
-Marvel vs. Capcom 2 (Studio 3) (60 fps)
-Pro Cast Sports Fishing (Studio 3) (unknown)
-Steel Battalion (Studio 4) (30 fps)
-Steel Battalion: Line of Contact (Studio 4) (30 fps)
-Street Fighter Anniversary Collection (Studio 2) (60 fps)

5 60 fps games for sure? 3 of them are primarily 2D games.

ok. vf originally played on a 2d plane. it needed powerful hardware for it to work the way sega wanted it to. midway was able to do mk in 3d because their plan worked and it played how they wanted it to and they have been improving on it since GOLD. capcom has tried and tried with the ex series which sucks, waited for more powerful hardware to give it another try and they couldnt do it. why wouldnt be a hardware thing? if they power was there, shouldnt you be able to make the game work in 3d? take sonic the hedgehog. sega tried it on saturn and they canned it because it wasnt working. it wasnt until the next gen that we got sonic games that moved like their 2d counterparts.

-shakes head-

I asked you to explain, from a technical standpoint, why the hardware couldn't handle. From my perspective, you are simply proving that you really have no clue as to what you are talking about.

However, if you truly believe that Capcom couldn't pull it off due to hardware limitations...then there is absolutely NO hardware on the market that could handle what you believe they want. The other possibilities function in a very similar fashion and would not provide any substantial benefits. Chihiro, TriForce, and even an ultra high end PC would not be able to reach your "vision". You are blaming a problem with 3D in general on specific hardware.

 

[ArcadeStickMonk]

Do you really think VF needed better hardware to make fuckers step to the side? Maybe throw a reversal? Do you think that? Need a better vid chip to make a dude catch a punch? They wanted to bring the jumping down to a more realistic level but were limited to 20 footers by the hardware? Needed a drink counting chip for Shou?

Fuck it, I'm done. Now I'm as irratated as you are, D, I'm going to bed.

 

[BeOnEdge]

no one mentioned the sequels. i meant the very first VF. just like i said. WTF? am2s goal was to bring 2d quality gameplay and speed to 3d. they needed model 1 to to this. back to the SF thing, could killer instincts 3d based sprites be replaced by true 3d characters?

 

[dark10x]

Do you really think VF needed better hardware to make fuckers step to the side? Maybe throw a reversal? Do you think that? Need a better vid chip to make a dude catch a punch? They wanted to bring the jumping down to a more realistic level but were limited to 20 footers by the hardware? Needed a drink counting chip for Shou?

Fuck it, I'm done. Now I'm as irratated as you are, D, I'm going to bed.

I think I'm done for the night as well...

This guy probably believed in "blast processing". -mega rolleyes-

back to the SF thing, could killer instincts 3d based sprites be replaced by true 3d characters?

This is it for tonight, but no. They could not be replaced with 3D characters and function properly. You still don't understand the difference between 2D and 3D, do you?

 

[Mejilan]

no one mentioned the sequels. i meant the very first VF. just like i said. WTF? am2s goal was to bring 2d quality gameplay and speed to 3d. they needed model 1 to to this. back to the SF thing, could killer instincts 3d based sprites be replaced by true 3d characters?

Theoretically, but it would have much less to do with the hardware involved and much more to do with the game designers. And, it would depend if you'd want the gameplay to react in 2D or in 3D, of course. Powerful hardware can only make it easier, but if they do not have the technical know-how or skill to fine tune the game properly, then it'll turn out like shit, regardless of platform.

You seem to think that by pumping in more memory or a more souped up GPU, anything is possible. Yet, if that were true, computers would be making out games, not people.

*shakes head*

The point that everyone (except you) seems to get, or acknowledge, is that one company's adaptation of a crappy, slow, and shallow 2D game into a crappy, slow, and shallow 3D game out of it doesn't demonstrate in no way represents another company's ability to take a finely tuned and precise 2D fighter into an EQUALLY finely tuned and precise 3D fighter. Again, regardless of hardware.

 

[BeOnEdge]

I think I'm done for the night as well...

This guy probably believed in "blast processing". -mega rolleyes-



This is it for tonight, but no. They could not be replaced with 3D characters and function properly. You still don't understand the difference between 2D and 3D, do you?

i do understand. there is a difference between how the camera can effect the 3d and keeping the gameplay 2d. VJ and smash brothers do 3d on a 2d plane flawlessly. why couldnt killer instinct do the same thing? why cant SF? fine. HELP ME UNDERSTAND why it cant be done when other games have done it fine already because seeing other games done only makes me think the power just isnt there.

 

[Sp3eD]

Be, you basically answered your question right there. Those other games worked primarily becuase the team behind them understood what it took to utilize 2d aspects in a 3d world. If the initial game behind the graphics and glitz it broken, no amount of fluff or 3d wizardry on any hardware can save it. MK4/Gold were considered horrible because of their blatent copy cat of past 2d MK's. Really they only added a couple items around the arena and a dodge button, the mechanics stayed the same. However with MK5 (DA) they learned from their mistakes and were able to create a gameplay engine that was able to get what they envisioned in the 3d world. If you look at MK5 compared to MK3, they play pretty differently. That is the key point we are trying to get to you here. Capcom didn't know how to put SF in a 3d world properly, evidence is EX series....

Capcom just doesn't know how to learn from their mistakes when it comes to SF clones.

 

[BeOnEdge]

but as someone else in this thread mentioned, more power makes it easier. i'd say SF is the deepest 2d fighter out there. if you compare capcom to disney, disney waited until the power was there and the cost was beneficial to go to computer animation. that power and those resources arent availible yet for capcom to bring SF to the next level. this may also explain why they wont redraw their fucking sprites for god sake.

 

[Mejilan]

Now you're just talking shit.

Disney's ability to render 3D animations (or not) have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on this discussion. The power in today's hardware is more than sufficient to realize a 3D SF. If it turns out like ass, like the last one's have, it's because of the developers, not the hardware. All of today's consoles are more than capable of rendering decent 3D graphics at a rapid pace.

 

[Sp3eD]

But as I said above, you have to have the vision first. Then everything else can fall into place. For example, let us pair the fighters of Ryu and Alex. The first thing that came to my mind is that there is a very drastic difference between them already from the 2d world......Ryu has a fireball and Alex does not. So where do you go from there? In the 3d world do you give Alex more dodging ability (even though he is a slower more brute force player)? No because that goes against his personality created in SF3. Do you make Ryu slower with his moves? Can't do that either as Ryu is always been a staple in speed and power. What to do? That is basically where the devleopment team comes in.

If you can't solve basic problems such as this then how the hell do you put together a game that they are envisioning? Does doing this on Xbox solve the problem of the no-fireball / fireball? How bout whether or not to include reversals? It comes down to the basic mechanics of the engine itself rather then glitz and graphical effects. If they wanted to incorperate some kind of wonky physics engine with all the trimmings then I can see that yes maybe it would be a hardware problem, but from the looks of it, (and EX series as referance) they simply are incapable of recreating something that is entertaining in a 3d world using the SF mechanics. 3d games are natorious for creating little problems that 2d games have never seen. So much stuff is needed to be taken into consideration when creating a 3d fighting game. Being that Capcom has never been too good at balancing their characters this only makes the problem stick out much more.

Anyway that is my take on it.

 

[BeOnEdge]

if kept on a 2d plane, why cant the gameplay remain the same?

 

[Mejilan]

Because then what would be the point?

 

[toohectic]

I'm a master wood craftsman and I can make anything out of wood. I'm talking perfection. But now I want to expand my knowledge to metal work. Yet no matter how much I practice and try, all my metal work look like shit. It must be my tools. Yea, I think my tools just plain suck.

Hrmm... other people make bad ass stuff with the same tools I'm using. Oh well, still blaming my crap on the tools.

 

[Sp3eD]

Then what would be the point of a 3d game then?

Bring SF into 3d has been a dream of many for a long time. However, just bringing the core 2d gameplay over to the 3rd dimension just for the looks would probably disappoint the hell out of its fans. I know because I am one of the fans of SF games. The cool way they do the MvC2 / CvS2 games are neat because they are different. 2d sprites on 3d backdrops. However, put the game in fully 3d and what it is now stacked up against? SC, VF, Tekken. It is just going to look plain bad in comparison.

 

[BeOnEdge]

so they dont have to redraw all the damn sprites!!!! thats been what i've been getting at the whole time!!!!

 

[Mejilan]

They aren't redrawing the sprites anyway!!

WTF?

 

[Anyanka]

MK3 and 4 are not slow paced, they're pretty fast. Comparable to the non-Turbo Street Fighters.


MK4 does play quite a bit like MK3, but not exact. They added weapons(which suck but still...), removed the chain combos, added a universal pop up combo, added max damage, items on the floor, breaker throws and a sidestep. There's also NOT a dodge button, it has the same button scheme as MK3.


I wouldn't say MK completely ripped off SF. It was their take on SF, but plays and feels totally different. It's as different from SF II as KOF, Shodown, KI and other 2D games.

Besides, about rip offs? Virtually every fighting game franchise, both 2D and 3D, now uses a combo system Ed Boon invented. Nobody EVER gives MK props for starting juggling.

 

[Mejilan]

The non Turbo SFs are generally considered slow paced, actually.

 

[jarrod]

Dark, I'm going to split the lists into 60fps and 30fps (and unknown/na)... I'll make corrections where I'm sure and make educated guesses where I can... and if you're curious about PS2 games with inconsistant framerates, am is pretty bad (it's been improved with each release though, US Tuned being usually 60ps), Chaos Legion is another good example offhand and actually most Capcom PS2 games feature slowdown somehwhere in the game. Even the recent VJoe port, which is pretty excellent from all accounts. Anyway, lists...

PlayStation 2 (60fps)
-auto modellista (Studio 1)
-auto modellista US Tuned (Studio 1)
-Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter (Studio 3)
-Capcom Fighting Evolution (Studio 1)
-Capcom vs. SNK 2: Mark of the Millennium 2001 (Studio 1)
-Chaos Legion (Studio 6)
-Devil May Cry (Studio 4)
-Devil May Cry 2 (Studio 1)
-Devil May Cry 3 (Studio 1)
-Dino Stalker (Studio 3)
-GioGio's Bizarre Adventure (Studio 1)
-Gregory Horror Show: Soul Collector (Studio 3)
-Marvel vs. Capcom 2: New Age of Heroes (Studio 3)
-Maximo: Ghosts to Glory (Studio 8)
-Maximo vs. Army of Zin (Studio 8)
-MegaMan X7 (Studio 3)
-MegaMan X8 (Studio 3)
-Mobile Suit Gundam Z: AEUG vs. Titans (Studio 1)
-Mobile Suit Gundam: Federation vs. Zeon DX (Studio 1)
-Onimusha: Warlords (Studio 2)
-Onimusha 2: Samurai's Destiny (Studio 2)
-Onimusha 3: Demon Siege (Studio 2)
-Onimusha Blade Warriors (Studio 2)
-Resident Evil: Dead Aim (Studio 3)
-Shadow of Rome (Studio 2)
-Street Fighter Anniversary Collection (Studio 2)
-Under the Skin (Studio 4)
-Viewtiful Joe (Clover Studio)
-Viewtiful Joe 2 (Clover Studio)

PlayStation 2 (30 fps)
-Clock Tower 3 (Studio 3)
-Glass Rose (Studio 3)
-MegaMan X: Command Mission (Studio 3)
-Monster Hunter (Studio 1)
-Resident Evil Code: Veronica X (Studio 3)
-Resident Evil Outbreak (Studio 1)
-Resident Evil Outbreak: File 2 (Studio 1)
-Resident Evil Survivor 2: Code Veronica (Studio 3)

PlayStation 2 (na/tba)
-Ashita no Joe 2: The Anime Super Remix (Studio 2) text/graphic/fmv
-Critical Bullet: 7th Target (Studio 4) text/graphic/fmv
-Disney Golf Classic (Studio 3) likely 60fps
-Full House Kiss (Studio 4) text/graphic/fmv
-Jiraiya: The Magical Ninja (Studio 3) likely 60fps
-Killer7 (Studio 4) likely 60fps
-Kyojin no Hoshi: The Anime Super Remix (Studio 2) text/graphic/fmv
-Okami (Clover Studio) likely 60fps


GameCube (60fps)
-auto modellista (Studio 1)
-Capcom vs. SNK 2 EO (Studio 1)
-Disney's Hide and Sneak starring Mickey & Minnie (Studio 3)
-Disney's Magical Quest starring Mickey Mouse (Studio 3)
-Gotcha Force (Studio 1)
-Mega Man X Command Mission (Studio 3)
-Viewtiful Joe (Studio 4)
-Viewtiful Joe 2 (Clover Studio)
-Viewtiful Joe Revival (Studio 4)

GameCube (30fps)
-Product Number 03 (Studio 4)
-Resident Evil (Studio 4)
-Resident Evil 0 (Studio 3)
-Resident Evil 4 (Studio 4)
-Resident Evil Code: Veronica X (Studio 4)

GameCube (na/tba)
-Killer7 (Studio 4) likely 60fps
-Resident Evil 2 (Studio 4) last gen port
-Resident Evil 3: Nemesis (Studio 4) last gen port


XBox (60 fps)
-auto modellista Auto Modellista (Studio 1)
-Capcom Fighting Evolution (Studio 1)
-Capcom vs. SNK 2 EO (Studio 1)
-Genma Onimusha (Studio 2)
-Group S Challenge (Studio 3)
-Marvel vs. Capcom 2 (Studio 3)
-Street Fighter Anniversary Collection (Studio 2)

XBox (30 fps)
-Dino Crisis 3 (Studio 3)
-Steel Battalion (Studio 4)
-Steel Battalion: Line of Contact (Studio 4)

XBox (na/tba)
-Pro Cast Sports Fishing (Studio 3) likely 60fps

...GameCube really gets thrown off by the abundance of RE. :/

 

[BeOnEdge]

wouldnt it be easier to recreate and animate the characters in 3d rather actually draw them? again this is what i've been trying to get at. the movies for allstars dont seem to MOVE in 3d but remain on a 2d plane. the camera moves but they remain on 1 plane. the only thing that looks odd is the animation.

 

[Mejilan]

That's something for artists to answer. But I don't really see how modelling complex character models and creating suitable (and multiple) sets of textures to map them with is really all that easier than having a team of talented artists (which Capcom already has in spades) whip up hand drawn sprites. I mean, if it were just one man working on them, then yeah. That said, your question is largely irrelevant, because they HAVEN'T done SF in 3D right yet, and they AREN'T redrawing the 2D sprites.